A long, long war ....
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1leccol
The Chonicles of Froissart is the history of the hundred years war or rather the history of the many battles between the French and English from the birth of
Edward III in about 1337 to the reign of Henry V in the fifteenth century. Froissart was a cleric and a Fenchman who travelled extensively in France, England, Scotland,
and other places concerned with the war. He seems to be to the French and English as Herodotus was to the Greeks and Persians. I've just gotten into the book, but I think I am going to enjoy it as I did the reading of Herodotus' Histories.
As one might expect, the book is a rather thick tome, and it might have been better to break it into two volumes as Herodotus was in the Heritage Press edition.
The book is marvelously illustrated by Henry C Pitz from the title page onward with
drawings in color with marginal black and white drawings.
This is one of those LECs not mentioned very often, but is worth getting in your LEC library. Perhaps Chris can give a more detailed review on Books and Vines.
Edward III in about 1337 to the reign of Henry V in the fifteenth century. Froissart was a cleric and a Fenchman who travelled extensively in France, England, Scotland,
and other places concerned with the war. He seems to be to the French and English as Herodotus was to the Greeks and Persians. I've just gotten into the book, but I think I am going to enjoy it as I did the reading of Herodotus' Histories.
As one might expect, the book is a rather thick tome, and it might have been better to break it into two volumes as Herodotus was in the Heritage Press edition.
The book is marvelously illustrated by Henry C Pitz from the title page onward with
drawings in color with marginal black and white drawings.
This is one of those LECs not mentioned very often, but is worth getting in your LEC library. Perhaps Chris can give a more detailed review on Books and Vines.
2Django6924
Don, I agree that this is an under-appreciated volume (and that it would have been better in two volumes). I specialized in medieval English Literature and History as a graduate student, and Froissart's work was very valuable in providing backgrounds, not only for the works of William Langland (the 1381 Peasant's Revolt) and Geoffrey Chaucer, but for Shakespeare's history plays.
3busywine
>1 leccol:, the work is at my local bookseller, but I do not own it yet. It did look really nice!
4UK_History_Fan
> 3
Unbelievable! An LEC that I already own that Chris doesn't yet. More surprisingly, an LEC I have read that Don has not. To quote The Princess Bride "inconceivable!" :-)
Unbelievable! An LEC that I already own that Chris doesn't yet. More surprisingly, an LEC I have read that Don has not. To quote The Princess Bride "inconceivable!" :-)
5featherwate
This takes me back! Not quite to the Middle Ages but to junior school circa 1950 when I remember our headmaster reading to us from the Boy's Froissart, a Victorian? Edwardian? abridgement with bloodthirsty drawings of knights bashing the lights out of each other. Great for bringing history alive for eight-year-olds. Eight-year-old boys, that is, the girls being stuck with the headmaster's wife reading them the Little Folks' Guide to Florence Nightingale and similar exhortations to lady-like self-sacrifice.
About time I caught up with the full Froissart, and that LEC looks like a fine place to do just that. Thanks, Don, for bringing it to light.
About time I caught up with the full Froissart, and that LEC looks like a fine place to do just that. Thanks, Don, for bringing it to light.
6busywine
> 4, that is funny! I am glad has not read it, makes me not feel so bad that I do not have it! Anyway, glad for this thread, have always been interested, should pull the trigger soon.
7Django6924
I love this group! It is such a heartwarming experience to see such a variety of individuals with a love of classic literature. I had been depressed after reading about the recent decision by the UCLA English Department to remove a crucial requirement for English majors:
Until 2011, students majoring in English at UCLA had to take one course in Chaucer, two in Shakespeare, and one in Milton—the cornerstones of English literature. Following a revolt of the junior faculty, however, during which it was announced that Shakespeare was part of the “Empire,” UCLA junked these individual author requirements and replaced them with a mandate that all English majors take a total of three courses in the following four areas: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, Disability, and Sexuality Studies; Imperial, Transnational, and Postcolonial Studies; genre studies, interdisciplinary studies, and critical theory; or creative writing. In other words, the UCLA faculty was now officially indifferent as to whether an English major had ever read a word of Chaucer, Milton, or Shakespeare, but was determined to expose students, according to the course catalog, to “alternative rubrics of gender, sexuality, race, and class.”
It's such as relief to know that as the barbarians are at the gate, a small group of people still appreciate the contributions of several centuries of exploration into what it is to be human.
Until 2011, students majoring in English at UCLA had to take one course in Chaucer, two in Shakespeare, and one in Milton—the cornerstones of English literature. Following a revolt of the junior faculty, however, during which it was announced that Shakespeare was part of the “Empire,” UCLA junked these individual author requirements and replaced them with a mandate that all English majors take a total of three courses in the following four areas: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, Disability, and Sexuality Studies; Imperial, Transnational, and Postcolonial Studies; genre studies, interdisciplinary studies, and critical theory; or creative writing. In other words, the UCLA faculty was now officially indifferent as to whether an English major had ever read a word of Chaucer, Milton, or Shakespeare, but was determined to expose students, according to the course catalog, to “alternative rubrics of gender, sexuality, race, and class.”
It's such as relief to know that as the barbarians are at the gate, a small group of people still appreciate the contributions of several centuries of exploration into what it is to be human.
8leccol
For those planning on reading the Chronicles of Froissart, there is an interesting three part documentary on YouTube of the Hundred Years War. The only copy of Canterbury Tales extant from Chaucer's time is shown, along with other documents of the period, such as a rolled parchment 28 meters long which listed all the niceties of gold purchased by Richard II. No wonder the peasant's revolted. Froissart, it is assumed, met with Chaucer during Froissart's travels. The text of the Canterbury Tales was written in English, Olde English, which was a break from the tradition of all things being recorded in French since 1066, and, of course Froissart wrote in French so the LEC Froissart's Chronicles is a translation. And the copy of the fifteenth century Chaucer was not illustrated by Arthur Szyk.
At one point in the second episode of the documentary a small wall safe is opened to reveal the mumified head of the Bishop (?) of Sudbury. Also, the literally hundreds of skulls of the victims of the fifteenth century Black Death are shown, shelved and numbered as if they were a library of skulls. the English do have a penchant for holding onto oddities.
At one point in the second episode of the documentary a small wall safe is opened to reveal the mumified head of the Bishop (?) of Sudbury. Also, the literally hundreds of skulls of the victims of the fifteenth century Black Death are shown, shelved and numbered as if they were a library of skulls. the English do have a penchant for holding onto oddities.
9britchey
>7 Django6924: Barf. The School of Resentment strikes again.
Excuse me, waiter, there's some politic in my aesthetics.
Excuse me, waiter, there's some politic in my aesthetics.
10parchment-
>5 featherwate: featherwate wrote: "About time I caught up with the full Froissart,"
FYI: This is an abridgement by Macaulay.
>7 Django6924: Django wrote: "...exploration into what it is to be human."
For an exploration into what it is to be human and bitten by the book bug, I would wholeheartedly recommend you to seek out a copy of Richard de Bury's Philobiblon. It is a joy to read, and will make you feel quite normal. There is nothing new under the sun.
FYI: This is an abridgement by Macaulay.
>7 Django6924: Django wrote: "...exploration into what it is to be human."
For an exploration into what it is to be human and bitten by the book bug, I would wholeheartedly recommend you to seek out a copy of Richard de Bury's Philobiblon. It is a joy to read, and will make you feel quite normal. There is nothing new under the sun.
11andrewsd
>7 Django6924:
This is an unfortunate trend in most English departments. Politics and sociology are overpowering aesthetics and classicism.
The Western Canon has been attacked as "colonial" since the 1960s. Content is devalued, and the only concern becomes the historical context it was written in and what type of person wrote it (lots of misogynistic white guys & their wealthy imperialist patrons, in their view).
I'm all for diversity in English departments, but, ironically, this can result in a new kind of homogeneity. At my own university, the dedicated Shakespeare course was removed as a requirement. For the first time since the department's inception, English majors can now graduate without reading one line of Shakespeare. Luckily, some professors are making up for this by incorporating Shakespeare into literary theory or period literature courses. But still, I find this unsatisfactory.
I'm all for postcolonial studies and new schools of thought taking the lead in a department (one of my favorite critical lenses is Queer Theory), but the classics should not be marginalized or disparaged.
I'll get off my soapbox now. So yes, Robert, I share your frustrations.
This is an unfortunate trend in most English departments. Politics and sociology are overpowering aesthetics and classicism.
The Western Canon has been attacked as "colonial" since the 1960s. Content is devalued, and the only concern becomes the historical context it was written in and what type of person wrote it (lots of misogynistic white guys & their wealthy imperialist patrons, in their view).
I'm all for diversity in English departments, but, ironically, this can result in a new kind of homogeneity. At my own university, the dedicated Shakespeare course was removed as a requirement. For the first time since the department's inception, English majors can now graduate without reading one line of Shakespeare. Luckily, some professors are making up for this by incorporating Shakespeare into literary theory or period literature courses. But still, I find this unsatisfactory.
I'm all for postcolonial studies and new schools of thought taking the lead in a department (one of my favorite critical lenses is Queer Theory), but the classics should not be marginalized or disparaged.
I'll get off my soapbox now. So yes, Robert, I share your frustrations.
12WildcatJF
Yikes. Perhaps I shouldn't mention I'm training to be an anthropologist. :p
I do agree with you all that Shakespeare, Chaucer and Milton are indeed pillars of English, and at the very least should be a required course together (with perhaps Beowulf and Huck Finn) as an overall "Classics" class.
As for the book, it sounds intriguing to say the least. I've always liked the medieval period of history, so if I spot the title somewhere I'll give it a look!
I do agree with you all that Shakespeare, Chaucer and Milton are indeed pillars of English, and at the very least should be a required course together (with perhaps Beowulf and Huck Finn) as an overall "Classics" class.
As for the book, it sounds intriguing to say the least. I've always liked the medieval period of history, so if I spot the title somewhere I'll give it a look!
13parchment-
Philobiblon á la Akke Kumlien:
14leccol
An Englidh major not reading Shakespear et al, is like an Engineering major not studying calculus. I always took technical courses, but in retirement I went back to the classics which I had missed most of in college.
I read the 37 plays in the Easton Press reprint of the LEC until Django convinced me to get the original LEC volumes, and Chris found me a set in Fine condition, Now, I'm trying to sell the Easton set for less than a thousand dollars, a very fair price of $950.
So far I have been unsuccesful.
Do you think this is because English majors don't or can't read the first folio Shakespeare in modernized spelling?
I read the 37 plays in the Easton Press reprint of the LEC until Django convinced me to get the original LEC volumes, and Chris found me a set in Fine condition, Now, I'm trying to sell the Easton set for less than a thousand dollars, a very fair price of $950.
So far I have been unsuccesful.
Do you think this is because English majors don't or can't read the first folio Shakespeare in modernized spelling?
15busywine
15 - God question Don! That is a great set, and it is sad that there are so few people reading Shakespeare and obviously even fewer collecting nice editions of such.
16nicklong
>14 leccol: & 15
Someone would have to PAY me to take Easton Press books. I have yet to find a single book of theirs that I'd like to own or handle.
>All
I don't see anything wrong with not requiring Shakespeare, Chaucer, or Milton for an undergraduate degree. What you fail to realize is that this was simply a change from requiring in-depth study of these writers. They are still covered in the survey / historical courses. I popped over to the UCLA English Degree requirement. Majors are required to take 4 courses in historical literature:
English before 1500
English 1500-1700
English 1700-1850
English 1850-Present
Current options for current semester:
English before 1500:
Chaucer: Canterbury Tales
Medieval Poets (Sir Gawain, various manuscripts)
Various Late Medieval Lit (Piers Plowman, et al.)
English 1500-1700:
Shakespeare I
Shakespeare II
Shakespeare in Black
Milton
Shakespeare III
English 1700-1850:
Tales of Two Cities: London
Tales of Two Cities: Philadelphia
Jane Austen
American Lit I
American Lit II
American Poetry
American Fiction
English 1850-Present:
A great variety of courses in this one
In short - there's absolutely no way someone can graduate "without reading a single word of Shakespeare, Milton, or Chaucer, et al.". I actually completely agree with this stance - there is no reason for an undergraduate English degree to require four courses that focus on Shakespeare, Chaucer, and Milton alone of all students (of course, you can elect to take such courses). But that old requirement of those 4 courses would be in addition to the above. So you could (under the old system) have graduated with an English degree without having ever read a word of anything published after 1900. Now, that's what I find unconscionable.
There's simply too much out there that I consider part of the canon - and without removing these requirements, it wouldn't have been possible for any student to begin to specialize in world literature, magical realism, or any of the contemporary English works you might not think about at first.
I wasn't an English major, but I managed to take courses in world literature that I wouldn't have been able to if I had been required to read only from "the Empire". And I still was required to take four different courses that covered everybody from "the Empire" anyway. And they weren't just "selections" either. Entire works.
Someone would have to PAY me to take Easton Press books. I have yet to find a single book of theirs that I'd like to own or handle.
>All
I don't see anything wrong with not requiring Shakespeare, Chaucer, or Milton for an undergraduate degree. What you fail to realize is that this was simply a change from requiring in-depth study of these writers. They are still covered in the survey / historical courses. I popped over to the UCLA English Degree requirement. Majors are required to take 4 courses in historical literature:
English before 1500
English 1500-1700
English 1700-1850
English 1850-Present
Current options for current semester:
English before 1500:
Chaucer: Canterbury Tales
Medieval Poets (Sir Gawain, various manuscripts)
Various Late Medieval Lit (Piers Plowman, et al.)
English 1500-1700:
Shakespeare I
Shakespeare II
Shakespeare in Black
Milton
Shakespeare III
English 1700-1850:
Tales of Two Cities: London
Tales of Two Cities: Philadelphia
Jane Austen
American Lit I
American Lit II
American Poetry
American Fiction
English 1850-Present:
A great variety of courses in this one
In short - there's absolutely no way someone can graduate "without reading a single word of Shakespeare, Milton, or Chaucer, et al.". I actually completely agree with this stance - there is no reason for an undergraduate English degree to require four courses that focus on Shakespeare, Chaucer, and Milton alone of all students (of course, you can elect to take such courses). But that old requirement of those 4 courses would be in addition to the above. So you could (under the old system) have graduated with an English degree without having ever read a word of anything published after 1900. Now, that's what I find unconscionable.
There's simply too much out there that I consider part of the canon - and without removing these requirements, it wouldn't have been possible for any student to begin to specialize in world literature, magical realism, or any of the contemporary English works you might not think about at first.
I wasn't an English major, but I managed to take courses in world literature that I wouldn't have been able to if I had been required to read only from "the Empire". And I still was required to take four different courses that covered everybody from "the Empire" anyway. And they weren't just "selections" either. Entire works.
17busywine
>16 nicklong:, I am not referring to EP as fine press at all, as a fine press collector, those do not fall in what I want either....however, many more people are just into literature than fine press, and if you want something more than Kindle or paperbacks, but are not snobby (like I am!) about paper, type, bindings, etc, EP's can be just fine. For their target, I do not criticize them. They are not book arts, just decent volumes of good works.
Also, I think taking one example above does not make Robert's statement less true. There are plenty of colleges that no longer require much of any focus on the Western Canon, let alone from some of the giants of such. Even someone who is not a liberal arts major should, IMO, have to have decent exposure to some of these giants. In my industry, I work around and hire hundreds of people from the best of the best schools (Ivy League, Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, etc) and I can tell you without a doubt in my experience they are coming out of those schools with little clue at all about Shakespeare, Milton, Dante or for that matter, pretty much anyone, Western Canon or not. Most use university these days as a trade school, they learn what they intend to do (say engineering, or technology, programming, finance, whatever) and not much else sticks. Don't get me wrong -- they often are super smart, just not in the wide field of life that includes art, literature, etc.
Also, I think taking one example above does not make Robert's statement less true. There are plenty of colleges that no longer require much of any focus on the Western Canon, let alone from some of the giants of such. Even someone who is not a liberal arts major should, IMO, have to have decent exposure to some of these giants. In my industry, I work around and hire hundreds of people from the best of the best schools (Ivy League, Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, etc) and I can tell you without a doubt in my experience they are coming out of those schools with little clue at all about Shakespeare, Milton, Dante or for that matter, pretty much anyone, Western Canon or not. Most use university these days as a trade school, they learn what they intend to do (say engineering, or technology, programming, finance, whatever) and not much else sticks. Don't get me wrong -- they often are super smart, just not in the wide field of life that includes art, literature, etc.
18BuzzBuzzard
>16 nicklong: The Gods Themselves is an EP book that I enjoy in my collection tremendously. Perhaps I am just not snobby like busywine :-)
19busywine
>18 BuzzBuzzard:, I have not read that, how is it? At one point, I had 500+ EP's...I started collecting them when I was in college, about 30 years ago. My interest was simply great literature (not book arts), and I had decided the torn up paperbacks I had all over the place were not good enough for books I wanted to return to time and again....so EP 100 Greatest, EP Famous Editions, etc., fit the bill perfectly. While I have sold off most of them (probably still have 50 or so, mostly works that LEC did not do), and have evolved to where art/craft of the book itself has grown in importance to me to be the most important consideration in buying a classic, I have zero regrets for the long period of time EP was what I had. Am I much happier with LEC's, Arion, Allen Press, etc., etc. because of the intrinsic value of fine paper, letterpress, traditional illustration methods, etc? Of course. But I am lucky now in that I can afford such true collectibles. If I could not afford or did not care so much about the traits of fine press books, I would be happy with EP, as compared to most non fine press alternatives, such as kindle, paperbacks, standard hardbacks, etc., EP is much better and for a reasonable price. Frankly, for standard editions, I prefer FS to EP, and if money prevented me from fine press, I would focus on FS....but I would not avoid EP's and would be happy to have many titles. I am thankful such alternatives exist that allow literature lovers reasonably priced alternatives to crappy or electronic editions. Does not mean I, like others, would not constructively criticize EP on trying to improve their quality, which does seem to have suffered some over the last decade. But, I wish them well and anyone who does collect them I applaud.
20BuzzBuzzard
>19 busywine: I can't compare The Gods Themselves with other works of recognition, but I truly enjoyed it on its own. Asimov was often criticized for not including aliens in his science fiction and here we have a whole chapter (about 1/3 of the book). I believe for the first time too. The master himself was proud and rightfully so!
One can't always find every work of fiction in fine press form. Even if he does there are circumstances that prohibit him from acquiring it. In my small collection I have a dozen EP, FL and FS and I enjoy them just as much as I enjoy my HP/LEC books. Yes the craftsmanship is incomparable but for me they do have an appeal. After all we can't all drive Ferraris.
One can't always find every work of fiction in fine press form. Even if he does there are circumstances that prohibit him from acquiring it. In my small collection I have a dozen EP, FL and FS and I enjoy them just as much as I enjoy my HP/LEC books. Yes the craftsmanship is incomparable but for me they do have an appeal. After all we can't all drive Ferraris.
21Django6924
>16 nicklong: "So you could (under the old system) have graduated with an English degree without having ever read a word of anything published after 1900. Now, that's what I find unconscionable"
Perhaps the issue is with the concept of "English" major. As Don (leccol) says, for an "English" major to not be required to take courses in Chaucer, Shakespeare, and Milton, is as illogical as an engineering student not being required to take calculus. It's all about what is, in reality, the foundation of English language and literature. Only since the advent of the electronic age has literature written in English not been heavily indebted to and referential of the English of the Renaissance--especially Shakespeare and the KJV of the Bible (in fact, I would be willing to substitute a semester or year of the KJV for Milton, so crucial I consider the KJV). Even the public utterances of political figures imitate or pay homage to the cadences and figurative speech of these great models--look at the speeches of Winston Churchill and J.F. Kennedy. (I don't want to get into politics, but I could name a few recent presidents of the U.S.A. who probably should have paid more attention in their Shakespeare classes--if they had any.
You say you weren't an English major, but if these four classes had been required, you wouldn't have been able to take courses in world literature; I don't see why that should have been, as when I went to college as an English major (in pre-historic times to be sure), I took a year of Comparative Literature before I took the required "Empire" courses--we started with Homer, the Bible, Gilgamesh and the Bhagavad-Gita, and ended with Alexander Blok, Andre Gide, Franz Kafka, Raul Brandão, and Junichiro Tanizaki--and there were plenty of non-English majors taking the course. And at my school, it was impossible to have graduated with a B.A. in English without having had at least one course in 20th century American literature and one course in 20th century British literature. (The literatures of non-English speaking countries were an elective and weren't required because of the problem of translation--but at least 2 years of a modern foreign language were required.)
I think that the current trend is more due to a lack of willingness on the part of students to put a little effort into understanding literature not written in the idiom with which they are familiar. I find many students are unwilling to look up words in a dictionary and/or an historical of mythological character or event mentioned in a text they are reading. One time I asked a student what was meant by the line "it was a pyrrhic victory" and he didn't know.
I also have an uneasy feeling that this trend is due to sociological changes in the past 50 years--changes that have been the result of an increasing awareness of the need for diversity, which was sorely needed and without which education is irrelevant to half or more of our society. The affirmative action period of the 60s--80s saw an increasing number of educators drawn from the ranks of the formerly disenfranchised. As these educators gained influence in institutions of higher learning, they frequently did their research and doctoral or master's work in hitherto neglected areas of literature, areas with which they had a special empathy (let's face it, writing your Ph.D. thesis on something about Shakespeare that hasn't been examined in great detail is not always that easy, or that relevant--a few recent theses include "Shakespeare on Film: Film Editing and Authorship" and "Shakespeare and Management"). And many of these new educators harbored, and continue to harbor a resentment of the works written by "Dead, White Guys," as if they felt excluded by the preponderance of attention paid to these works. Furthermore, today schools must pay lip service to Diversity, the new "Empire" if they want to continue receiving public funds.
I'm not denouncing increased awareness of all segments of our society. It has been long needed. I just find it terribly wrong-headed to misplace where the emphasis should lie. Inclusion of many new "rubrics" is good, but exclusion of the foundation and cornerstone of English language and literature is wrong.
Perhaps the issue is with the concept of "English" major. As Don (leccol) says, for an "English" major to not be required to take courses in Chaucer, Shakespeare, and Milton, is as illogical as an engineering student not being required to take calculus. It's all about what is, in reality, the foundation of English language and literature. Only since the advent of the electronic age has literature written in English not been heavily indebted to and referential of the English of the Renaissance--especially Shakespeare and the KJV of the Bible (in fact, I would be willing to substitute a semester or year of the KJV for Milton, so crucial I consider the KJV). Even the public utterances of political figures imitate or pay homage to the cadences and figurative speech of these great models--look at the speeches of Winston Churchill and J.F. Kennedy. (I don't want to get into politics, but I could name a few recent presidents of the U.S.A. who probably should have paid more attention in their Shakespeare classes--if they had any.
You say you weren't an English major, but if these four classes had been required, you wouldn't have been able to take courses in world literature; I don't see why that should have been, as when I went to college as an English major (in pre-historic times to be sure), I took a year of Comparative Literature before I took the required "Empire" courses--we started with Homer, the Bible, Gilgamesh and the Bhagavad-Gita, and ended with Alexander Blok, Andre Gide, Franz Kafka, Raul Brandão, and Junichiro Tanizaki--and there were plenty of non-English majors taking the course. And at my school, it was impossible to have graduated with a B.A. in English without having had at least one course in 20th century American literature and one course in 20th century British literature. (The literatures of non-English speaking countries were an elective and weren't required because of the problem of translation--but at least 2 years of a modern foreign language were required.)
I think that the current trend is more due to a lack of willingness on the part of students to put a little effort into understanding literature not written in the idiom with which they are familiar. I find many students are unwilling to look up words in a dictionary and/or an historical of mythological character or event mentioned in a text they are reading. One time I asked a student what was meant by the line "it was a pyrrhic victory" and he didn't know.
I also have an uneasy feeling that this trend is due to sociological changes in the past 50 years--changes that have been the result of an increasing awareness of the need for diversity, which was sorely needed and without which education is irrelevant to half or more of our society. The affirmative action period of the 60s--80s saw an increasing number of educators drawn from the ranks of the formerly disenfranchised. As these educators gained influence in institutions of higher learning, they frequently did their research and doctoral or master's work in hitherto neglected areas of literature, areas with which they had a special empathy (let's face it, writing your Ph.D. thesis on something about Shakespeare that hasn't been examined in great detail is not always that easy, or that relevant--a few recent theses include "Shakespeare on Film: Film Editing and Authorship" and "Shakespeare and Management"). And many of these new educators harbored, and continue to harbor a resentment of the works written by "Dead, White Guys," as if they felt excluded by the preponderance of attention paid to these works. Furthermore, today schools must pay lip service to Diversity, the new "Empire" if they want to continue receiving public funds.
I'm not denouncing increased awareness of all segments of our society. It has been long needed. I just find it terribly wrong-headed to misplace where the emphasis should lie. Inclusion of many new "rubrics" is good, but exclusion of the foundation and cornerstone of English language and literature is wrong.
22nicklong
>17 busywine: & 19
Don't misunderstand me. I just happen to think a paperback is a better option over Easton Press. It's mainly the raised bands that does it for me. There are other options out there (obviously). Even the Barnes & Noble Leatherbound Editions (which I think is far better than EP, and is the same type of binding & target market).
You can teach people about the Canon. You cannot instil a love of the Canon and/or the finer things in life. There's a difference. Society changes over time. Just think about the progress from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's to now. Each decade now has its own identity. The problem is that most people only have so much "stuff" they can have at one point. Preferably, we'd like it to be an inch deep, but a mile wide.
The problem is in certain disciplines - you need it to be an inch wide and a mile deep. Engineering and computer programming come to mind immediately. And only so many minds in every generation is capable of handling more than this - thus the celebrated Renaissance man, rare as he is. And guess what type of knowledge today's society needs more of? Mile deep, inch wide. Google for the rest.
(Said in my best cranky old man's "Get off the lawn!" voice)
PS: Just read Shakespeare at least once. Doesn't matter how you read it.
Don't misunderstand me. I just happen to think a paperback is a better option over Easton Press. It's mainly the raised bands that does it for me. There are other options out there (obviously). Even the Barnes & Noble Leatherbound Editions (which I think is far better than EP, and is the same type of binding & target market).
You can teach people about the Canon. You cannot instil a love of the Canon and/or the finer things in life. There's a difference. Society changes over time. Just think about the progress from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's to now. Each decade now has its own identity. The problem is that most people only have so much "stuff" they can have at one point. Preferably, we'd like it to be an inch deep, but a mile wide.
The problem is in certain disciplines - you need it to be an inch wide and a mile deep. Engineering and computer programming come to mind immediately. And only so many minds in every generation is capable of handling more than this - thus the celebrated Renaissance man, rare as he is. And guess what type of knowledge today's society needs more of? Mile deep, inch wide. Google for the rest.
(Said in my best cranky old man's "Get off the lawn!" voice)
PS: Just read Shakespeare at least once. Doesn't matter how you read it.
23nicklong
>21 Django6924:
I don't think it's illogical at the undergraduate level.
I only mention that I was not an English major, because I wasn't. I was an engineering major. And didn't study Calculus in college* (* - tested out). After doing the bulk of the degree's work - to graduate with an engineering degree, you're required to take ONE English course. ONE philosophy course. ONE history course. And one "elective". There's literally no room/time to take any other course. After I took my required philosophy and English courses I quickly found out that I didn't know anything about life besides engineering/computer science.
Instead of graduating in about 2 years, I changed my major completely - before I even had finished my first philosophy/English courses - it was that same semester! I went into philosophy just to better myself and to learn more. Due to the degree switch, my former engineering/math/science classes served as the required courses to graduate with a B.S. I was then able to spend my last 2 years of college doing nothing but taking philosophy and English courses, along with whatever struck my fancy (like Botany).
My point is that requiring people to study something (such as the Western Canon) isn't the same as instilling a love of that subject matter in the first place. If I had switched to English instead of philosophy - I wouldn't have been able to take the world literature courses that I had opted for instead of the required English courses. Instead, because I still had to take two required English surveys (that covered the Western Canon from Gilgamesh to 1900, I still got the opportunity to read all these authors and most of the Canon, just without spending weeks on a single work of theirs).
I agree completely and wholeheartedly with you about the unwillingness of the students to put forth the effort. But does requiring them to do something really change the status quo? I doubt it.
I believe that the English language is constantly changing and evolving. (I probably should point out that my native language is not English, and it is iconographic in nature, so I deal with translation on a constant basis.) Without the ability to update the curricula, it'll be harder for English majors to deal with the current status of the English language if they're unable to devote serious instructor-led time towards modernized English. Just look at the LEC Plutarch's Parallel Lives - it contains the quote "Englished" instead of "translated".
If you ask me, the over-regulation of required coursework (most of the degrees at my university are regulated to the point where in a four year program, you're able to take possibly four or five non-proscribed courses over that entire period of time) and the decline of critical thinking are the two most important factors that are contributing to the decline of the English language. Please note that I'm leaving unexplored a vast swath of factors that are open to interpretation by anybody else (the rise of mobile connectivity & texting, the development (or lack thereof) of general knowledge - as noted in Nicholas Carr's seminal article (which got turned into a book: Is Google Making Us Stupid? ), and various other things I'm not even bringing up.
I don't think it's illogical at the undergraduate level.
I only mention that I was not an English major, because I wasn't. I was an engineering major. And didn't study Calculus in college* (* - tested out). After doing the bulk of the degree's work - to graduate with an engineering degree, you're required to take ONE English course. ONE philosophy course. ONE history course. And one "elective". There's literally no room/time to take any other course. After I took my required philosophy and English courses I quickly found out that I didn't know anything about life besides engineering/computer science.
Instead of graduating in about 2 years, I changed my major completely - before I even had finished my first philosophy/English courses - it was that same semester! I went into philosophy just to better myself and to learn more. Due to the degree switch, my former engineering/math/science classes served as the required courses to graduate with a B.S. I was then able to spend my last 2 years of college doing nothing but taking philosophy and English courses, along with whatever struck my fancy (like Botany).
My point is that requiring people to study something (such as the Western Canon) isn't the same as instilling a love of that subject matter in the first place. If I had switched to English instead of philosophy - I wouldn't have been able to take the world literature courses that I had opted for instead of the required English courses. Instead, because I still had to take two required English surveys (that covered the Western Canon from Gilgamesh to 1900, I still got the opportunity to read all these authors and most of the Canon, just without spending weeks on a single work of theirs).
I agree completely and wholeheartedly with you about the unwillingness of the students to put forth the effort. But does requiring them to do something really change the status quo? I doubt it.
I believe that the English language is constantly changing and evolving. (I probably should point out that my native language is not English, and it is iconographic in nature, so I deal with translation on a constant basis.) Without the ability to update the curricula, it'll be harder for English majors to deal with the current status of the English language if they're unable to devote serious instructor-led time towards modernized English. Just look at the LEC Plutarch's Parallel Lives - it contains the quote "Englished" instead of "translated".
If you ask me, the over-regulation of required coursework (most of the degrees at my university are regulated to the point where in a four year program, you're able to take possibly four or five non-proscribed courses over that entire period of time) and the decline of critical thinking are the two most important factors that are contributing to the decline of the English language. Please note that I'm leaving unexplored a vast swath of factors that are open to interpretation by anybody else (the rise of mobile connectivity & texting, the development (or lack thereof) of general knowledge - as noted in Nicholas Carr's seminal article (which got turned into a book: Is Google Making Us Stupid? ), and various other things I'm not even bringing up.
24parchment-
>23 nicklong: nicklong wrote " as noted in Nicholas Carr's seminal article (which got turned into a book: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stupid/3..."
I started to skim this article on my computer screen, then stopped and printed it out on paper to be able to read it thoroughly. Thought-provoking.
I started to skim this article on my computer screen, then stopped and printed it out on paper to be able to read it thoroughly. Thought-provoking.
25nicklong
>24 parchment-:
Noticed an issue with the link... so I had to put in the HTML code for it.
Glad you enjoyed the article. I'm a long-time subscriber to The Atlantic and that issue is one of very few I've kept because when I read it, I knew it was going to be a seminal article. There's only very few of those pieces ever written every decade.
If you're interested, the book is actually The Shallows.
Noticed an issue with the link... so I had to put in the HTML code for it.
Glad you enjoyed the article. I'm a long-time subscriber to The Atlantic and that issue is one of very few I've kept because when I read it, I knew it was going to be a seminal article. There's only very few of those pieces ever written every decade.
If you're interested, the book is actually The Shallows.
26parchment-
>25 nicklong:. Thanks.
I mailed the article link to a friend of mine. A couple of hours later, I phoned him and asked what he thought about it.
- I didn't read it, it was so very long. What was it about?
He made my day.
I mailed the article link to a friend of mine. A couple of hours later, I phoned him and asked what he thought about it.
- I didn't read it, it was so very long. What was it about?
He made my day.
27Django6924
>23 nicklong:
Though I agree with you that "requiring people to study something (such as the Western Canon) isn't the same as instilling a love of that subject matter," I have to say that anyone who does not have a love for the language of Shakespeare and the KJV should not be an English major. Of course the language is constantly changing and evolving, but to say that if the curricula isn't updated that" it will be harder to deal with the current status of the language" is baffling to me--we are immersed in the current status of the language and learn it the way very young children learn. I believe that no one ever used the English language more effectively than Shakespeare and the translators of the KJV. My belief is borne out by the fact that everyday one encounters quotes from these sources, even in cases where the quoter or the quoter's audience are unaware of the source.
We have discussed the issue of "the Canon" elsewhere, and I reiterate that I dislike intensely the very concept. A canon is arbitrary and, to my way of thinking, an attempt by pedants to justify their own personal interests.
Though I agree with you that "requiring people to study something (such as the Western Canon) isn't the same as instilling a love of that subject matter," I have to say that anyone who does not have a love for the language of Shakespeare and the KJV should not be an English major. Of course the language is constantly changing and evolving, but to say that if the curricula isn't updated that" it will be harder to deal with the current status of the language" is baffling to me--we are immersed in the current status of the language and learn it the way very young children learn. I believe that no one ever used the English language more effectively than Shakespeare and the translators of the KJV. My belief is borne out by the fact that everyday one encounters quotes from these sources, even in cases where the quoter or the quoter's audience are unaware of the source.
We have discussed the issue of "the Canon" elsewhere, and I reiterate that I dislike intensely the very concept. A canon is arbitrary and, to my way of thinking, an attempt by pedants to justify their own personal interests.
28nicklong
>26 parchment-:
That's classic.
>27 Django6924:
You must be well familiar then with Harold Bloom's statement that he hoped people read The Western Canon instead of just looking at the list at the back of the book that the publisher asked him to jot down, which he claims he did in five minutes.
I read the book and was nonplussed. His list was rather impressive and I got more value out of that list than I did his book. I took it as a good way to start your exploration into literature and the Canon, and did not think it was intended to be the end-all be-all.
(Even if I do think Bloom is a blowhard.)
I consider the study of English to be about the use of the language as it currently stands in the time you studied it. Today's use is quite different from the time of the KJV. I also think my viewpoint about this is quite different from most people's. I don't consider syllables at all, nor do I consider stresses, intonation, pacing, or even locution to be essential to the study of "English", which I separate from linguistics.
I do however agree that if an English major doesn't like the KJV or Shakespeare, then they should change their major.
That's classic.
>27 Django6924:
You must be well familiar then with Harold Bloom's statement that he hoped people read The Western Canon instead of just looking at the list at the back of the book that the publisher asked him to jot down, which he claims he did in five minutes.
I read the book and was nonplussed. His list was rather impressive and I got more value out of that list than I did his book. I took it as a good way to start your exploration into literature and the Canon, and did not think it was intended to be the end-all be-all.
(Even if I do think Bloom is a blowhard.)
I consider the study of English to be about the use of the language as it currently stands in the time you studied it. Today's use is quite different from the time of the KJV. I also think my viewpoint about this is quite different from most people's. I don't consider syllables at all, nor do I consider stresses, intonation, pacing, or even locution to be essential to the study of "English", which I separate from linguistics.
I do however agree that if an English major doesn't like the KJV or Shakespeare, then they should change their major.
29Django6924
>28 nicklong: " did not think it was intended to be the end-all be-all."
Thanks for proving my point about finding quotes from Shakespeare everywhere! :-)
(And I agree Bloom is a blowhard. But I'm sure many people find me so.)
Thanks for proving my point about finding quotes from Shakespeare everywhere! :-)
(And I agree Bloom is a blowhard. But I'm sure many people find me so.)
30Lukas1990
I have a couple of questions for those who own the book or are familiar with it:
1. Is it a history of wars only or is it something like Herodotus - a mix of customs, traditions and so on?
2. I have seen a lot of pictures of the book but none of the text and the marginal drawings. Can anyone provide some of those?
Thank you!
1. Is it a history of wars only or is it something like Herodotus - a mix of customs, traditions and so on?
2. I have seen a lot of pictures of the book but none of the text and the marginal drawings. Can anyone provide some of those?
Thank you!
31Django6924
>30 Lukas1990:
1) Yes, the Monthly Letter even draws a comparison to Herodotus, (and in Froissart's favor). The translation used is Lord Berners' as revised and edited by G.C. Macaulay: the original is probably 4 times as long and contains descriptions of many minor skirmishes that happened during the Hundred Years War which would interest only the specialist.
2) I'll try to post some tomorrow; it's a gorgeous book and beautifully designed. The color illustrations are strikingly reminiscent of Foster's "Prince Valiant" art, and wonderfully hand-colored; in my opinion, they seem to not quite fit the tenor of the work itself. My specialty in college was medieval literature, and either B&W engravings or color illustrations in the style of the famous illuminated manuscripts of the Chronicles seems as if it would have been more appropriate. (Valenti Angelo's work for the LEC Song of Roland is more along the lines of what I mean). The marginal drawings for the Froissart are much more successful in this respect, and there is one on every page!
1) Yes, the Monthly Letter even draws a comparison to Herodotus, (and in Froissart's favor). The translation used is Lord Berners' as revised and edited by G.C. Macaulay: the original is probably 4 times as long and contains descriptions of many minor skirmishes that happened during the Hundred Years War which would interest only the specialist.
2) I'll try to post some tomorrow; it's a gorgeous book and beautifully designed. The color illustrations are strikingly reminiscent of Foster's "Prince Valiant" art, and wonderfully hand-colored; in my opinion, they seem to not quite fit the tenor of the work itself. My specialty in college was medieval literature, and either B&W engravings or color illustrations in the style of the famous illuminated manuscripts of the Chronicles seems as if it would have been more appropriate. (Valenti Angelo's work for the LEC Song of Roland is more along the lines of what I mean). The marginal drawings for the Froissart are much more successful in this respect, and there is one on every page!
32Lukas1990
>31 Django6924: Thank you for an informative answer, Django6924.
Those two-page illustrations are a bit too modern for my taste but I think I am already enabled. I hope the book doesn't weigh more than 5 lbs since it is quite a challenge to get big books shipped to Lithuania for a decent price.
Those two-page illustrations are a bit too modern for my taste but I think I am already enabled. I hope the book doesn't weigh more than 5 lbs since it is quite a challenge to get big books shipped to Lithuania for a decent price.
33Django6924
>32 Lukas1990:
Well, my kitchen scale is only calibrated to 5 lbs. and when I put the book on it in slipcase, the needle goes past the 5 lb. marking, so I expect it is about 5.5 lbs., perhaps as much as 6.
I don't know if these will reproduce correctly--sometime when I preview the message it doesn't show the pictures, and sometimes it inserts a Monty Python image (I don't know if that is LibraryThings odd sense of humor or a problem at the Imgur image hosting site):
(see >38 BuzzBuzzard: below for the way it should have been; glad there are some HTML-savvy members here!)
Well, my kitchen scale is only calibrated to 5 lbs. and when I put the book on it in slipcase, the needle goes past the 5 lb. marking, so I expect it is about 5.5 lbs., perhaps as much as 6.
I don't know if these will reproduce correctly--sometime when I preview the message it doesn't show the pictures, and sometimes it inserts a Monty Python image (I don't know if that is LibraryThings odd sense of humor or a problem at the Imgur image hosting site):
(see >38 BuzzBuzzard: below for the way it should have been; glad there are some HTML-savvy members here!)
34Django6924
Well, it did what I was afraid it would do; if you PM me with your email address I will send the pictures to you. I hope you can appreciate from what did post the excellence of the paper and printing, and the detail work of the illustrations.
35WildcatJF
>33 Django6924: >34 Django6924: That's unfortunate.
Something I can do to help is switch the position of some of my blog posts and cover this book for April instead of early next year. If that is something people would like, let me know here and I'll adjust the schedule.
Something I can do to help is switch the position of some of my blog posts and cover this book for April instead of early next year. If that is something people would like, let me know here and I'll adjust the schedule.
37Lukas1990
>35 WildcatJF: I would really like it. I am planning to order the book for my birthday on September (my budget is very tight and...well... I had some disagreements with my wife over buying more books).
39kdweber
>34 Django6924: You proved them wrong, you were expecting the Spanish Inquisition.
Edited to note that the Spanish Inquisitors have been removed from Robert's post.
Edited to note that the Spanish Inquisitors have been removed from Robert's post.
40Django6924
>38 BuzzBuzzard:
Thank you!!!!!
If you'd like to share, what was wrong with the formatting? I've usually not have this problem before.
Thank you!!!!!
If you'd like to share, what was wrong with the formatting? I've usually not have this problem before.
41BuzzBuzzard
>40 Django6924:
<img src="//i.imgur.com/G0Bk7Po.jpg">
is the correct HTML code. You had extra characters in the code for the pictures that were not displaying.
<img src="//i.imgur.com/G0Bk7Po.jpg">
is the correct HTML code. You had extra characters in the code for the pictures that were not displaying.
43Django6924
>41 BuzzBuzzard: Thank you!!
>42 WildcatJF: And thank you!
(Of course you know we are enabling >37 Lukas1990: )
>42 WildcatJF: And thank you!
(Of course you know we are enabling >37 Lukas1990: )
44WildcatJF
>43 Django6924: What, me enable? Hahaha
46laotzu225
RE: Froissart-- I confess that this is a book I never thought of getting. But now, seeing Robert's pictures...
47RRCBS
I was enabled to buy a copy of the LEC Froissart by this discussion and wanted to say thank you! It’s a beautiful book, the illustrations are amazing. I can’t wait to read it!
48Glacierman
Yes, the Froissart is a wonderful book. I ended up with two copies, one of which was the illustrator Henry Pitz's personal copy.
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