Janet sets out with high hopes

I read 101 books in 2010, the most I have ever read in a year. To be fair, it was a cheat, because I was off work sick all year, so if/when I go back to work I will struggle to keep up. Of those 101 books, around a third were directly as a result of recommendations here, so this group is very precious to me. To give you an idea of what kind of books I like, here are some of my favorites of 2010:

Simon Armitage – Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
Sarah Bakewell – How to Live (life of Montaigne)
Richard Bausch – Peace
Alan Bennett – The Uncommon Reader
Gil Buhet – The Honey Siege
Olivia E. Butler – Kindred
Michael Chabon – Maps and Legends
Bessie Head – When Rain Clouds Gather
Gish Jen – World and Town
Ryszard Kapuscinski – Travels with Herodotus
Ursula K. LeGuin – Lavinia
Andrea Levy – The Long Song
David Liss – A Conspiracy of Paper
Attica Locke – Black Water Rising
Tom McCarthy – Remainder
Naguib Mahfouz – Palace Walk
Caryl Phillips – A Distant Shore
W. G. Sebald – Rings of Saturn
Vergil – The Aeneid
Stefan Zweig – Beware of Pity

The post below lists my reading for 2011.

What I have read in 2011:

January:
1. Palace of Desire by Naguib Mahfouz
2. God's Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science by James Hannam
3. Sizzling Sixteen by Janet Evanovich
4. Remnant Population by Elizabeth Moon
5. Death in a Strange Country by Donna Leon
6. Stalking the Angel by Robert Crais
7. Among the Mad by Jacqueline Winspear
February:
8. Started Early, Took My Dog by Kate Atkinson
9. Oblivion by David Foster Wallace

Jane, I think I'll star your thread and follow you for a bit. I may be a lurker, but sometimes I can't help myself and I'll have some comments.

I am retired school teacher living in the northwest part of Washington State. I spend my days taking care of my niece's kids and my nights taking care of three dogs. In between I read, take photographs, and dabble in some artsy crafty kinds of activity.

I have my thread here: http://www.librarything.com/topic/105310

Happy New Year.

Found your new thread. Happy New Year! And may your reading in 2011 be good, enjoyable, thought-provoking, world-expanding, relaxing or whatever you need it to be - never mind the numbers!

Hi Janet. Happy New Year!

Welcome back!

Happy New Year!! Here's a New Year wish for a happy, HEALTHY 2011 for both of us! See you around the threads. So happy to have met you. : )

Glad to see you back, Janet! Here's to no more IV poles in 2011!

Happy New Year Janet!

#8 Strongly seconded.

Hello old friends, and welcome to my thread, Karen/maggie1944!

Well, the new year is finally here. I had a week's break from LT, trying to spend time in the real world with the family. It was fun, but I did miss you all! And here's a funny story to start the year...

As some of you know, my husband and I have, for 30 years, bought each other a new hardback novel each Christmas. This is our only present, so it's quite important to get it right! I was very stressed this year, and after asking lots of opinions, decided to buy him The Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet. I ordered it online, sight unseen. When it arrived, I realized it was written in the present tense, which husband dislikes intensely. Panic! So at the last minute I bought a copy of Jenny Erpenbeck's Visitation, which sounded interesting. That looked a little too slim and unusual, so I wound up giving him both, a bit worried. Then, after all that, he had decided to break the rule (we have broken it a few times before, but only for really good reasons) and gave me Sondheim's Finishing the Hat, non-fiction but I was really happy he did, because I want to read it, and also because I thought he was buying me The Finkler Question, which I had decided I didn't want to read after all. So, after all that angst, I could have just bought him a non-fiction or whatever after all...... anyway, he says he will try the Mitchell book and see. And I have started the Sondheim, which is fantastic so far.

Great Christmas story indeed, so funny how we bind ourselves up! There's always the exception that proves the rule. I recently read a book (Surfacing) where I never even noticed that the protagonist had no name. Normally I would loathe that but I was too absorbed, it worked.

Hi Janet, I'll try to do a better job of keeping up with you this year as I love reading your remarks about books that we share an affinity for. Hope the new year is a happy and healthy one for you.

Hi, Sib and Bonnie.

Bonnie, one of my reading aims this year is to comment more on my books as I go along, not just write reviews at the end. This is so that other people might be encouraged to comment back with their own thoughts, as I found that so helpful when I read Lavinia. So I'd be thrilled to hear what you think of anything I am reading!

I scanned back and found the link Janet, and just read through the posts. I think you both covered everything important about the book -- I loved the premise of Virgil on his deathbed visiting his 'creation' and of Lavinia herself, a made-up person, becoming somehow more and more real, so that even after Virgil does die she finishes living her life.

I thought the implications were all there in The Aeneid of the various characters, Aeneas' piety translating to a gentle and conscientious and even somewhat sad man (think George Washington?), Turnus -- I loved seeing his disappearances this way, unexplained and inexplicable..... although wasn't Juturna at least part of the time one of Hera's messengers? LeG doesn't mess with that.

I loved the scenes at the 'mouth of the underworld'. And, in general, the book had an authentic feel of someone fully immersed. What a great read! And thank both of you for your thoughts to amplify and expand mine.

Hi Janet

I send love and lots of good wishes for a healthy 2011. I admire you tremendously.

#13 I think commenting along the way is a brilliant idea! I was thinking the same thing. I don't read fast enough to churn out several reviews a week nor am I interested in the popularity contest of thumbs up, but I can post thoughts as I go and hopefully keep my thread more on books.

I like the idea of commenting more while reading is in progress too. It means that immediate thoughts do not get lost, and perhaps takes away some of the pressure of trying to produce a perfectly summed up review at the end.

I tend not to do "reviews" with thumbs, but just comments. Usually I save 'em for when I'm done (no problem, since I read so quickly anyway!), but I'll be delighted to follow yours, Janet, as your reading unfolds. Hopefully no nasty hospitals will interfere with your reading...

Janet, it sounds like your Christmas gift exchange started off well. I've heard great things about the Sondheim book. Fingers crossed that the Mitchell is well-received too.

Comment away!

By all means! I think that this is the third time I've cruised your thread today, but for some reason I didn't speak. Hi, Janet! I love your Christmas story, and your lucky husband got two books from your angst, so that's a treat for him. I wish you an especially good year. We're all jazzed about new threads and new vistas opening, but I suspect that you are really seeing all things new. Enjoy! Enjoy! And let us share a little.

Hi Janet--I went back to work (as an attorney) after 10 years out of the work-force (mommyhood), which is not quite like one year of illness (my time away was much more fun than yours). If you'd like to talk about my experiences PM me. Things must be going well for you health-wise if you're thinking of heading back to work!

Congratulations to both you and your hubby for the way Christmas worked out for you, Janet.

More hellos and welcome backs to all.

#18 - Well, I certainly hope to avoid the hospital from now on (although there is a reasonable chance I will need at least one more admit before I'm through), but in a strange way it sometimes helps the reading not hinders, as long as not too many drugs are involved....

#21 - Thanks, Deborah. It's not so much that I'm feeling better now, just that if things go as they should, I'm supposed to be able to go back to work at some point this year - that is, the insurance companies, government and my employer will kind of expect it, and at some point stop paying me something for nothing. So I am putting a little bit of my brain to work thinking about it, even though I am desperately trying not to count my chickens. Anyway, I will PM you soon, thanks.

Hi, Janet!
Happy New Year! Hope that you have more great reads in 2011!

I loved your Christmas story. I love to give books as gifts. I think that they are a gift that really lasts!

I will enjoy following your reads this year.
--BJ

*lurk lurk lurk*

:)

My 1/2 hour beeper just went off..... Yes, a stupid New Year's res not to fritter on here so much..... I can come back when I have DONE MY WORK..... which I even want to do, but LT is so seductive. Anyhow, so all I can do is whine a little and say howdy.

Hi Janet! I also want to add my wishes for a good 2011 for you! I like posting along as I read something, and I've often wondered why more people don't do that rather than writing something up at the end. I guess I tend to be more right-brained and stream-of-consciousy rather than goal-oriented towards writing a paragraph that sums it all up. I use these posts as reading notes, and I also use my own writing to discover things that I didn't know I knew. I'm sure for many people my posts are overlong, but mainly I write them for myself. I put my 2010 posts into a program I use (called One Note), giving a page to each book that I read. Going back over them, I actually find them quite useful to remember what I was thinking at the time, and I'm of the opinion that the notes add to my reading experience.

Hey Janet! Thought you would be excited for me...I am feeling well enough to try yoga today!! Wish me luck. I haven't been able to do anything for months. : )

Hi, BJ, Faith, Becky.

#28 - Kim, I'm VERY excited for you - and jealous! My aim this year is to take up both yoga and tai chi, to see which works better for me, having never tried either. I'm not quite ready, yet, but hopefully by February. What kind of yoga do you do, and what kind do you recommend for a pathetic beginner?

So, I am doing something right now I have never done before - reading THREE books at once. I know this is nothing exciting for lots of you, but I am (or have been) strictly a one book at a time kind of gal. The reason I'm doing this is that my husband gave me Sondheim's Finishing the Hat for Christmas, and it's not the sort of book you read all in one go. So I started the next book on my list (I have a sort of list this year, just to make sure I don't just read whatever the library happens to have on the shelf) - it's also a non-fiction, God's Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science by James Hannam. Then I saw that that one would be hard to just read straight through, too, so I started the second book in Mahfouz' Cairo Trilogy - Palace of Desire, as well. So far:

Sondheim - Absolutely fantastic. He is THE master of theatre lyric writing, and in this book he sets out all his lyrics (well, from the first half of his career - there will be a part II) and comments on them - good, bad and just interesting. He is critical of his own work, and also makes very clear what makes good songs - if you want to be a lyricist, this book will teach you everything you need to know. He is also critical of other writers, but only dead ones - he refuses to comment on any living lyricists (which is too bad, because I'd love to see what he has to say about Andrew Lloyd Weber!). So far I have only read the first show, Saturday Night, which he wrote when very young, even before West Side Story, and which has never really been produced properly (and now isn't worth it). I can already say I really recommend this book, even if you don't know anything about Sondheim, theatre, lyrics, etc. - a real master craftsman at work.

Hannam - His thesis is that lots of really interesting science happened in the Middle Ages, despite what the Enlightenment wanted us all to believe. So far I have been reading about how math and science came back to Western Europe via Arabic learning coming through Spain, after the west had lost access to Greek thinking after the fall of the Roman Empire (because absolutely no one learned to read Greek any more). I'm only in the 11th century so far, but I have already learned a lot, such as the fact that lots of scientists (or philosophers as they were more usually considered) did know that the world was round not flat, but it's just that the part they thought was inhabited was about a quarter of the world and so fit nicely on a flat map!

Palace of Desire - Picks up where the first one left off, a big sprawling family saga, which I always love.

Janet, I like your idea of discussing your books as you're reading them. (Love the details about science in the Middle Ages.) I'm going to try that too this year. I've got Palace of Desire on my reading list as well. I'm supposed to be reading that with Deborah some time this year.

OOh, will you go on to read #3 of the trilogy right away after that? if so, let me know and I will hang fire after no. 2 andnd share no. 3 with you (if you don't mind)

I read the first book in the Mahfouz trilogy last year and am hoping to get to book 2 this year. I picked up a copy on PBS. I still do not have book 3 year though. I look forward to your thoughts on Palace of Desire, Janet!

A nice follow up to the science book if you haven't read it already is How the Irish Saved Civilization all about the work of the monks, first saving books and then disseminating information as monasteries opened all over Europe - I thought it was a great read and filled a gap.

I adore Mahfouz.

Janet, I'll enjoy reading your comments as you post about your current reads. I jot down a few notes as I read along but throw them away after I've written about my book on LT to clean the slate so to speak.

I have found myself having two (sometimes three) books going at once lately. Usually one "takes over" and I read it almost exclusively. Freedom has taken on that role for now with Gweilo (a memoir) being my secondary book...also dipping into Shakespeare's sonnets from time to time. It's interesting to see how LT influences our reading habits.

I hope your husband is enjoying his Christmas books. Great story!

#32 - I borrowed 1 from the library, 2 from a friend, and then found 3 second hand, so I am all set to move on to the last one straight away if I decide to (or not, if I wait until others are reading it). I can imagine myself reading all his works soon, as I really love the style and the story.

#33 - Thanks for the suggestion, Sib, I will put it on my list.

#34 - well, he hasn't started them yet.....

The Hannam book sounds good - I'm always keen on books that debunk popular mis-conceptions of the Middle Ages. I remember reading a lot about the 11th century renaissance a while back, when lots of ideas (re-)entered western thought via the Arabic-Spain route - an exciting time!

I'm not very good at reading more than one book at once myself - when I list several that I am currently reading, it usually means one I'm actually reading every day, and several others that I started and haven't touched for weeks or more. Your attempts to read three at once are interesting - perhaps it does depend on the nature of the book. It makes sense to have one fiction and one non-fiction on the go at the same time, at least.

Janet...How the Irish saved civilization is the first book in the "Hinges of History" series by Cahill. I have read them all (in fact, they are some of the few books we've bought in hardback and plan to keep) and I have them on my re=read this year list. They are stunning, well-written and provide enough facts to encourage additional reading and research.

aargh a whole series.... thanks, I think!

A whole series? Eeeaaagggghhhhh. Ok, I'm over it. Now I have to go check this out. Thanks tutu! (I think)

I loved How the Irish Saved Civilization.

So, my experiment in reading more than one book at a time may be making me read better, which I wasn’t expecting. I am reading just one chapter of each book each day (maybe more of the fiction), and this is helping me think about them more rather than just rushing on.

Today, in God’s Philosphers, I’ve been reading about the 11th Century, and the debate about whether logic/reason (as described by Aristotle) can/should be invoked in support of faith and theology, or whether they need to be kept apart. Famous philosophers of the time, like St. Anselm and Abelard, believed logic could support faith, and in particular could be used to refute heresy. There was no inherent conflict between reason and faith, because both were gifts from God. Others felt it was dangerous, because if logic couldn’t support an argument of faith, people might start to disbelieve the faith. The Church seemed happy to give logic and reason a role, but only if faith came first. While this debate may seem ridiculous to many modern day people, brought up on the supremacy of science, reason and logic, it seems to me must find a way to accommodate the growing numbers of Christian (as well as Islamic) fundamentalists who absolutely do not see a role for reason in faith, or in life, and who therefore stop reason and science from making the progress they otherwise could. Perhaps we need to go back and really understand how earlier people were able to reconcile the two, and therefore how science was able to gain a foothold in those years, despite the prevalence of “faith”.

As an aside, this chapter also told the story of Abelard and Heloise, which I had only been vaguely aware of, and had not in fact realized was a completely true story.

Wow, God's Philosophers sound fascinating, Janet. I'll be checking back for more of your comments on it.

I've owned the first two books of the 'Hinges of History' for years and never read them. Now I want to.
I've always read several books at the same time, but I generally try to have different genres going. Interesting that you've immediately thought that it makes you read better, I hadn't really thought about that aspect, though some books I enjoy reading more slowly and thinking about the characters or content. Also certain times of day are more conducive to sustained reading and at other times I like a lighter read especially when there is a lot of background noise. I find this a good way to read a book of short stories or essays, limiting myself to only 1 or 2 a day and enjoying them more as I have the rest of the day to think about them.

God’s Philosphers sounds very good, I'm getting a very impressive 'to read' list in the nonfiction line from being part of this group.

Yep, my NF pile has grown a lot more than my fiction pile and I read more NF this year than in at least three previous years, I bet.

Sadly, my "reading three at a time" has had to reduce to two for a while. Not because I can't cope - I'm finding it surprisingly easy - but because I have had to go back into the hospital for another top-up of IV of one of my drugs. Not a setback, just a pretty much expected development - they were kindly trying to manage me on oral drugs over Christmas, so I wouldn't be admitted, but we sort of knew it wouldn't really do the job. So I'm back in, probably for another week or 10 days, back with the IV poles, still undecorated. I decided to take God's Philosophers and Palace of Desire with me, but not the Sondheim, because it's a beautiful big coffee table book and I just don't want it "soiled" by hospital-ness. So I'll probably get through the other two pretty quickly now!

I am enjoying Palace of Desire a lot so far. It is the story of a family during a time of transtion, and of the relationships between the generations. Most of the “action” takes place in family gatherings, or conversations between two characters, and different characters are featured in different chapters. Not much “happens”, but much is revealed, discussed and decided, often implicitly. The best chapter so far has been one where Kamal, the youngest son, is discussing with his father which university faculty he should enter. His father wants him to study law, or at least civil service, but knows he must let Kamal choose, or his heart won’t be in it. Kamal wants to enter the Teaching faculty, because there he can study literature, philosophy, the arts, etc., and just generally get what we might call a “liberal arts” education. He champions “thinking, learning, knowledge” above the practical skills that will get him into a successful career. His father just cannot comprehend this, and tells him so in no uncertain terms. Kamal has to tread very carefully (his father is a real bully), but he stands his ground. At the end of the chapter, nothing is said, but it seems clear that he will be allowed to do what he wants, even though his father doesn’t like it (at least that’s what I’m guessing will happen). Each character’s motivations and feelings, and their relationship, has been made really clear, despite very little “telling” by the author. I really understood where each was coming from. All this through conversation only. I can’t wait to keep reading and see what happens next.

Sorry to hear you're back in hospital, even if it was anticipated. I hope they'll let you out again soon. Get those poles decorated!!

Interesting thoughts about the reconciling of faith and reason, which is not an issue for many kinds of believer (including myself) but is clearly problematic for the various 'fundamentalist' forms of faith. And the true story of Abelard and Heloise is very moving, and very characteristic of the preoccupations of 11th century too. Do you know Helen Waddell's novel Peter Abelard?

I'm enjoying your comments on your ongoing reading, Janet. I have a copy of Palace Walk that I'd like to get to this year.

#46 - Thanks, Genny. I know most Christians and other believers are very comfortable with knowing what reason is for and where faith takes over. Scientists in particular seem to have been very good at finding the balance they need to do their work. I just worry that the proportion who can't cope with reason and who therefore just fall straight back on faith, and on the more ignorant aspects of it, as the only option has increased so much during the past 25 years or so, especially in the US, or perhaps I just notice it more as I get older. It's scary to think that the very research that is saving my life (stem cell transplant), for example, had to struggle so much to happen, when it seems to me that a religious person would welcome it as a boon from God. Anyway, I did not know of that novel, thanks, so I will check it out.

#47 - Thanks, Pat. It really is a great trilogy, in my opinion. I am trying very hard to understand just why I like it so much, so I can try to identify other similar books to read next.

Sorry to hear you're back in the hospital, Janet, but I hope the IV drugs do their stuff and you're back out on schedule.

I received God's Philosophers for Christmas and I'm really looking forward to it. (The Letters of Abelard and Heloise are interesting, if you want to find out more about their real story.)

#49 - Thanks, Caty (or do you prefer Catherine?). I will be very interested to see what you think of God's Philosophers - I am especially interested to know whether people of faith (which I am not) see it differently from me or not. And thanks for the tip about the Letters - clearly there's a whole feast of Abelard and Heloise stuff for me to discover at some point!

Caty beat me to the tip about the letters, and I hope to read Mafoez this year too. (The Touchstones are great; I would never have spelled his name right. Hmm. Maybe I'm mispronouncing it...)
I'm sorry that you can't get what you need out of the hospital, but glad it's there for you since you do need it. "Trooper" doesn't do you justice, Janet!

#50 Either is fine. I'm mostly used to being Caty online and Catherine in real life, but I'll cheerfully answer to either. And regarding the letters: you're welcome. :) I read them as an undergrad for a course on how to use historical sources in about 1996, but so far as I can remember they were very interesting.

Back in the hospital, huh? Well, that is not much fun and will definitely postpone the start of your yoga career! Bummer. I know it was somewhat expected, but still...what a drag. So, when you DO feel well enough, I have tried lots of different yogas. (#28) Hot yoga (Bikram) will probably be too intense, so skip that initially, although it does have the benefit of letting all your muscles get nice and warm so you can really stretch well. Ashtanga yoga has all the sun salutations and really gets your pulse going (that's one of my favorites). Hatha is more meditative. But as a rehab, intro yoga, I recommend Iyengar. They pay a lot of attention to learning the correct way to do the form and it is usually nice and slow. But the key is to find a place somewhat close to you that you will be willing to go to!! Best wishes and big hugs.

#53 - Thanks, Kim. I will do some investigating and see if anywhere near me offers beginners Iyengar yoga. Nice and slow is probably where I need to start!

I keep meaning to mention that I've been doing tai chi for 6 six years (I can't believe it, but I have!). I vowed to start it when I turned 50. If I slacking I always notice a slight deterioration in agility and balance...... so then I get back on the wagon!
Tai chi is movement and balance and no stretching to speak of. I don't have a 'stretchy' sort of body, if that makes sense, and never really took to yoga when I tried it. So keep that in mind if yoga doesn't feel right.

I also love tai chi having tried to learn it when I was resisting getting my hip replaced. The hip pain finally made continuing difficult but I do recommend it as excellent exercise and meditation, too. And on the other hand, I've also tried yoga more than once. Do not like the yoga which has adapted itself to western "get in shape" athletic goals - hot yoga and the like; but, I love the slower, more meditative, yoga which both stretches and relaxes your body and does the same for your mind.

Janet, I also have loved learning tai chi and qigong. Yoga can sometimes be a little much depending on the instructor.

I am obviously going to have to go over to London if for no other reason than to decorate your IV poles! :)

Sorry to hear you're back in hospital again Janet. Hopefully you will be back home soon.

I've wishlisted God's Philosophers after all the conversation here.

Seems like I should look into tai chi more - I don't think I am very "stretchy" either. Also, a quick search suggests no Iyengar yoga within walking distance, just the "hot" kinds, which will definitely not suit! Back to google to see what I can find...

Stasia, you would be very welcome!

Thanks, Heather, and I hope you get to God's Philosophers soon - I'm really looking forward to hearing other views on it. My next installment will be this afternoon.

Hi Janet, I've starred your thread and look forward to following your reads. :o)

Hi, Jenny, nice to see you here.

God's Philosophers continues to be fascinating. I'm reading now about how educated people in the 13th Century (which meant church people) worked to reconcile all the new learning from the East (that is, stuff lost after the fall of the Roman Empire) with Christian orthodoxy, so they could use the new tools without fear of "heresy". Here's a long-ish description of what I learned over the last few chapters - you can skip it, and just take out that these philosophers were very smart guys who struggled hard to reconcile the different values in their world, and lucky for us they did or science might have taken even longer to take off as a discipline in the "West".

So: In the 12th and 13th Centuries the project to reconcile Greek thought with Christian orthodoxy continued, with the aim of “christianizing” ancient thinking so that it would be “okay” to use logic and reason in argument and to start to use these tools to explore the natural world as well as in theological argument. At the same time, Christianity was stating to conquer Islamic cities, leading up to the Crusades, and when they took over libraries they realized more and more how much knowledge they were missing out on. So another part of the “project” was to translate newly rediscovered works from Greek to Latin, often via existing Arabic translations, sometimes via translations into Spanish or Hebrew. This new knowledge was taught and fostered at universities, which first developed at this time.

Sometimes logic and reason were used in support of heresy, as the church had feared, leading to temporary bans on Aristotle as well as, of course, the Inquisition and the squashing of the Cathars (who believed in the duality of the spiritual and the material, the first controlled by a “good” god, the second by an “evil” one). It also led to the rise of new orders of monks such as the Blackfriars, Dominicans and Fransciscans, who wanted to study the new learning as much as possible, so they could debate with people like the Cathars and with ordinary Christians, and could show them that logic and reason were good tools.

The ultimate hero of this movement was St Thomas Aquinas, who set out to reconcile Aristotle with Catholicism, to synthesize Christian and pagan (and Jewish) philosophy,and to set limits for logic and reason, accepting that beyond a certain point only faith could answer certain questions. What he also did was to say “Aristotle could be wrong sometimes, he was only human”, but while still championing Aristotle’s method of enquiry, opening the way for philosophers to stop just revering Aristotle and start looking at the world for themselves, to correct or surpass him.

It can (and does, to me) seem ridiculous for it to have taken hundreds of years for the educated sections of the Western European world to have decided it was okay to think about things logically without fearing eternal damnation. And I’m sure somewhere some people were perfectly merrily thinking whatever they damn well liked. But things moved slowly in those days, and the church really did have a tight grip on what you could say publicly about thoughts which didn’t agree with theirs. It took a long time for each step to happen, but it did happen. I guess the stage is now set for an explosion of science – I’m looking forward to the next chapter.

#63: I really need to get hold of a copy of that book!

I'm with Stasia - onto the wishlist it goes! Thanks for the great description.

Hi, Janet! Just popping in to say Hi, glad you're doing better, and hope the hospital stay is short & sweet! Your comments had me putting the Sondheim book on my wishlist!

Thanks, Terri. That Sondheim really is fantastic. But then again, I have loved him for a long time. Have you?

Just the best stuff, Janet, such a great conversation you are having with this book -- and sharing with us. I'm a seriously enjoying it, I love that time period you're reading about.

>67 JanetinLondon: Since the day I was 10 and my aunt took me out shopping, and then to the movies to see West Side Story. Greatest day of my life, and she says she can't remember doing it...

I loved West Side Story, too, but to be honest did not know it was Sondheim until later. I do remember distinctly the day I heard A Little Priest on the radio for the first time, in a review of Sweeney Todd. I knew my life was complete..... I mean, by then I already knew well who he was, and had even played in the orchestra for A Little Night Music in a college production, but this song just blew me away. So clever, so confident, so literate.

#68 - thanks. I am getting a lot from this book, maybe because I'm commenting as I go or maybe because I'm reading more than one thing at a time, not sure which. It's not a period I am that familiar with, as I have always assumed it was all about the Church, which I'm not interested in, but I see there was more going on than just that. So maybe I'll read further, as per the suggestions I've been getting. I can't imagine writing a real review of a book like this at the end, so this might be how I keep reading these kinds of books.

Going off now to read yet another chapter before "bed" - although in the hospital bedtime doesn't mean much since the random interruptions sometimes continue through the night! I'm hoping not tonight, as they seem to have done all the things they like doing to me already, so fingers crossed.

With a complex topic like the one in God's Philosophers, I'm really glad you're posting as you're reading it because I think the points you're making will stay with me more than if you just mentioned them once in a review.

Hope you manage to get some sleep tonight. It seems crazy to me that they keep interrupting sleep in a hospital since it seems so important to feeling well.

Sleep tight! (And try Tai Chi and Qugong when you are up to it. They are great, too.)

I convinced the nurses they didn't need to actually wake me up and take my temperature/blood pressure in the middle of the night, they could just look in and check I was breathing! So I did get a decent night's sleep, hooray. And today it didn't rain for a couple of hours, so I went out with my husband for coffee and croissants. And I have found a place a very short bus or a long walk away that does beginners' tai chi and qugong. Unfortunately, the next classes start this week, which I can't do, but the next one is in 3 months, so I can plan to be ready for that one, or maybe find another place. So it's all good.

Meanwhile, back in the Middle Ages, some interesting short chapters on how the other “sciences” of the time started to develop into the sciences as we know them. Astrology, for example, involved lots of complicated astronomical calculations in order to get ever more “accurate” star charts, so developed that science and its related instruments, while alchemy, with its focus on turning other metals into gold, led to the discovery of acids and alcohols, the identification of new metals, the development of new equipment, and the perfection of techniques such as distillation. Medicine, however, was temporarily stalled – the ancient texts were useful in helping doctors diagnose what was wrong with their patients, but they were still clueless as to how to actually cure them, relying on bleeding and purging, which were more likely to do harm than good. Basically, you either got better or you didn’t, and medicine had nothing to do with it. “Magicians”, or herbal healers, had a bit more luck, but only a bit. Most people just prayed, which at least did them no physical harm and might have had a placebo effect.

Physical sciences, and technology generally, developed as aides to warfare, with educated monks and others employed as siege engineers, eventually trying to improve the accuracy of things like bows and arrows and trebuchets (giant slings). The ancient Greeks understood things like levers, but didn’t understand trajectory at all. Other philosophers, particularly in England, and especially Roger Bacon, got interested in the properties of light (because of its divine associations), and pulled together all known thought in that area, although they still didn’t figure out how human vision really worked. Then, at the end of the 13th Century, spectacles were invented, which were a huge breakthrough – all those monks could keep studying and copying even when their eyesight began to fail! So I guess someone understood about converging rays, refraction, etc., etc., even if not Mr. Bacon – we don’t know that person’s name, apparently, but he (or she? any chance?) was probably Italian.

Congrats on finally getting a decent night's sleep, Janet!

Janet...just dropping in to say I've been lurking, and wish you a speedy recovery and return home. I'm really enjoying your progress through God's Philosphers and think that the ongoing discussion has been very enlightening. It certainly has made me put this on the list for long-term reading. It sounds like a book best read slowly and with a minimum of distraction.

Hope to hear you're home soon.

Thanks, Stasia. Unfortunately, tonight's will not be so good, because they need to put up several different things on the IV, last one of which goes up around 1:00 and runs all night! These are salts, to replace ones I lose due to the main drug I am getting. (sorry, probably TMI!) Hopefully the pump won't alarm, or make any weird noises, so as long as I don't roll over and mess it up I should be able to sleep once it's running. Sigh. I'll be glad to be done with all this.

#76 - thanks, Tina. I'm enjoying writing about it, even if it sometimes gets a bit longwinded - it's helping me remember what I am reading. It's very readable, too, which is not always the case with non-fiction, I find.

Janet, I'm loving reading your comments, as I would probably get too annoyed reading it myself. So glad I live in the modern world--though it sometimes seems like we're going backwards. keep talking!

Janet--Added God's Philosophers to my list. Sounds great!

#77: I'll be glad to be done with all this.

I bet you will! I hope you get some rest tonight despite the pump.

I'm sure you've read The Name of the Rose -- doesn't the main character have spectacles and everyone finds that amazing?

That's too bad about the tai chi 'class' -- in theory, as I was taught, you should be able to walk into any tai chi group and begin, at your own level. There's no beginning and end, that's the philosophical piece.......you just do. In her class you could begin sitting in a chair and watching and doing a few movements -- although -- I had a VERY opinionated tai chi teacher, and I gather they are ALL that way. -- I haven't even tried to find someone here and am presently on my own, which isn't so great as TC is also something of a 'do with' thing. I have found another person who's been at it awhile who wants to get together with me, but you know how that goes... hmm segued from you to myself so smoothly I hardly noticed.

Hope they set you free soon. Glad you slept.

#82 - Yes, I have read The Name of the Rose, although I had forgotten that about the specs. According to the Amazon blurb, it is set in 1327, so that is just about right. If I had the energy, I would re-read it, since it probably covers some of the philosophical issues I am reading about, but it was a tough read, and I have too many new things to read, so it probably won't happen.

Whoa, serendipity strikes - we have a thing here called 'the front porch forum' -- I think it's all over the country, anyway, if you live in a specific town you can sign up for your little town and this morning 'the another person' I mentioned up there in 82 put in the forum that she wants to start a class Thurs nights.

As for Eco -- I think that was my favorite of his, and I think I've read (and liked) them all. They are tough reads indeed!

Hi, Janet! I've never been able to make it through Baudolino, but I'm a *Rose* addict. I even like the movie for the shots of the Aedificium!
I've wish-listed God's Philosophers, but it will be a long, long time before my name comes up unless several folks who bought it don't have your tenacity. You have, however, inspired me to restart Pagans and Christians, which fascinated me years ago although I didn't finish it. (I think school started back.) This time I'll read it all!

#84 - that's so cool. It reminds me of the first book group I was ever in. I had just had my second daughter, so was on maternity leave, and thought it would be good to find or, more likely in those days, start, a book group. I wrote a little card to put up in the local library (yes, that's how we did it in those days) and on the way happened to stop in a baby clothes store and saw up on their notice board a notice from a woman who was looking for a couple more people for her new reading group! So I didn't even have to put up my notice or try to organize my own group. It was a good group, I stayed in it for several years, and still have one very good friend from it. I hope your new class works out that well.

#85 - I wish I could say I would pass mine on to you, but it's a big hardback, and the postage would cost more than the book did, so I can't. But hang in there, it's worth waiting for. I hope Pagans and Christians keeps you happy in the meantime. I never read Baudolino or Foucault's Pendulum tried the latter but just found it too hard. Maybe now with this new philosophical knowledge I can try again, or maybe I won't bother. We'll see.

I ended up loving Baudolino (maybe when I stopped trying to make sense of it and went for the ride???) but if I have read Foucault's Pendulum my brain has completely dumped it out. I feel like I read it, but.... now I'm wondering. It's one of the many 'boxed' books so it will be awhile.

I have to go see about Pagans and Christians or have I already wishlisted this? I think I've read several other of Fox's books and they were pretty good.

Gracious, Janet. I appreciate even the thought, but I think from reading about *G'sPs* that it is a definite keep it on the shelf for later reference! I'll eventually get a copy, and I'm sure that's how I will feel about it!

Just mentioning that I'm enjoying the comments on God's Philosophers. I think I really would like to get a copy of this and read it as well!

I'm glad you're all enjoying the comments. I am interested to see if my reading it this way helps me remember it any better - in six months' time I'll look back here and see if it's all still clear or has become a total blank as so much of my reading does! And of course I'll be very interested in what any of you who get around to reading it have to say - I'm probably only picking up some bits and pieces, and other people would take note of other things in the chapters, especially people with a better knowledge of church history.

Anyway, next installment - a few interesting things from the next couple of chapters:

The center of technological and theoretical development shifted to Oxford for a while at the end of the 13th/beginning of the 14th Centuries. The tuition was all in Latin, and the 14-year old boys who arrived were expected to already be able to read, write and speak it, ready for the first 3 years’ study, which focussed on grammar, rhetoric (argument) and dialectic (logic). But Hannam notes that “remedial teaching was often required” – plus ca change!

The second three years focussed on “mathematical” subjects – arithmetic (including algebra and number theory), geometry, astronomy and music – not playing or listening to it, but harmonic theory, linked to “the music of the spheres”.

After that, they moved on to ethics, metaphysics and natural philosophy (science more as as we know it). And apparently, until that time, no one thought to cross math with natural philosophy, because Aristotle never did. So the biggest breakthrough of the 14th C was to start using maths to describe natural phenomena, such as the rules of motion, or how to calculate how far you would travel if you accelerated at a constant rate for a given period of time. High school kids know this stuff nowadays, but until the 14th Century absolutely nobody thought it was even a question worth asking, much less trying to figure it out.

Good stuff! If it's any hope for you my first really intense group read, The Education of Henry Adams (at least I think it was the first intense group read I did last spring) has remained VERY VIVIDLY in my mind. Not every little thing of course, but more than I usually would remember. And that is getting on six or seven months maybe even eight since we finished it. I am guessing that this round of Middlemarch will fix it permanently. Just taking the time to remember what you just read duct tapes it in, I think.

Thanks for the encouragement, Sib.

And for heaven's sake, The Aeneid !!! I think that is quite well pasted in due to writing and thinking so much about it. Especially following it up with Lavinia.

True. But those had the benefit of others' comments as well. This time I'm just spewing out thoughts, not really discussing as such. And with this sort of non-fiction there's not exactly loads to discuss, just notes to take in a sense. But I'm enjoying it, and seems like others are prepared to either enjoy or just skip and not complain, so maybe I'll keep at it.

Today I've been really trying to focus on Palace of Desire and get some thoughts together on why I like it so much - you'll be pleased to know some things hepzibah starkweather has to say on this subject are coming in useful! (You'll have to wait until at least tomorrow before I get as far as posting about that, though!)

Hi! Catching up on your thread. Hope you will soon be through all the needed IV's and home. Your book sounds fascinating. Enjoyed the discussion of faith vs. reason -- a hot topic in some circles. My hubby studied at MIT before he went into the ministry; we're not the kind of believers who view reason as the enemy. God gave us brains to use!

Janet

I am so sorry that you are back in the hospital. I admire your courage and fortitude. You are a shining example of smiling through a very difficult situation.

I'm thinking of you and sending prayers.

#95 - I am of the firm opinion that most believers are of your view. I just can't see the contradiction - surely all believers ought to be able to see that reason is a gift from God, and that no area of enquiry should be "off limits", and that it's just power-hungry humans, be they "the church", or whoever, who try to set such limits. Sadly, not everyone uses the brains they've been given.

#96 - Thank you, Linda. To be honest, it's not so bad, just that I'd rather be at home, obviously. I feel fine, I'm allowed out, I have enough books, and all the family are so busy this week that I wouldn't be seeing much of them anyway. So if it had to be, this week is better than last would have been, that's for sure!

There you go again with that wonderful positive attitude. You are an inspiration to me.

:)

>95 tymfos: & 97 --- Just chiming in to say that the obvious great danger in not allowing reason and questioning is that when science makes a new discovery about what had been a matter of "faith," faith is forced to retrench, deny, rationalize, and otherwise find itself derailed from what should be its pure striving. (That was so clear in my head. I'm sorry that it's jumbled on the screen - or so obvious that it didn't bear saying at all.)
>96 Whisper1:-98 --- We do like to encourage you, Janet, partly because we then feel as though we're participating.

Hi Janet. I'm enjoying the commentary on God's Philosophers and the discussion on faith and reason. I firmly maintain that if believers are meant to love God with all their heart and soul and mind and strength, then that requires them to apply thought and reason to their faith and how it relates to what they see around them.

Hope you're getting a good night's sleep tonight.

#94 Janet, I'm so glad that you're also reading Lucy's Hebzibah Starkweather. I'm loving it and look forward to hearing your comments.

Hope you're sleeping soundly!

Just catching up, and loving all the comments on God's Philosophers also. I was going to mention spectacles and Name of the Rose but Lucy beat me to it. I'm sure you would find that book an easier read with the help of the background you've gained from this read, but as you say, there's plenty more to read. If you want to try bizarre novel set in the 13th century featuring Roger Bacon, you could try The Brazen Head by John Cowper Powys...

#101 - Thanks, Caty. What you say feels like it just HAS to be true. Too bad for those people who can't see it.

#102 - oh yes, I am loving it. And I am in awe of our friend who is writing it! I am trying to catch up slowly, so I am reading one post a day or so, as it was written (but a bit quicker, so I catch up, obviously!)

#103 - Thanks for the suggestion of the JCP book, Genny. I haven't read any of his, am waiting to read I guess any or all of Porius, Wolf Solent and his autobiography, but sounds like this one might need to go on the list as well!

Yesterday and today I spent more time on Palace of Desire. I read a series of chapters about the father of the family, a man with the extremely grand sounding name of Al-Sayyid Ahmad Abd al-Jawad. He is frequently referred to (by the author) by this long name, although the rest of the family are just called by their simple first names – Amina, Yasin, Kamal, etc. I guess this reflects his much more formal bearing and old-fashioned attitudes. He’s an interesting character, although the least sympathetic (to me, anyway). In the first book, and so far in this one (although I’m guessing things may change), he is very very strict and traditional with his family – the women aren’t allowed out of the house, EVER, except to visit each other (when the daughters are married) or on extremely special occasions. They can’t even look out of the windows, only through the louvered blinds on the balcony. (Yet they do manage to know what’s going on in the neighborhood.) His wife calls him “sir”, his children are afraid of him. He runs a traditional small scale merchant’s business. He is very religious – on his way to the mosque for Friday prayers, he starts thinking too much about sex, so he reluctantly decides he can’t actually go to the prayers when he gets there. Yet…. every single night, he goes out partying with his friends – drink, smoking, song, gambling, women. Every single night. And he doesn’t see anything hypocritical, or unfair to his wife, in this. Anyway, this set of chapters is very interesting, showing how he goes about seducing (or being seduced by) a young musician, and then how he avoids being “hooked” by an ex-lover who wants him back. Again, the conversations on the surface could be seen as quite innocent, except that since we are also privy to his inner thoughts, we see how they aren’t – quite a convention of coded language in that time/place, which allowed all these outwardly conservative people to flirt outrageously and make assignations which they understood the meaning of perfectly well despite the innocuous words spoken.

And that surface/underneath thing is what I like so much about this book. Sometimes the characters don’t know what will happen, but we do. This is more the case with the younger characters I think, who aren’t as worldly yet. Also, we know Egypt is going to change soon (although my history isn’t good enough to know exactly how/when), and although they may suspect it, they don’t let it into their lives much.

And here’s the Hepzibah Starkweather thing I mentioned yesterday – at one point in her musings about her writing, Hepzibah quotes EM Forster (well, she quotes him a lot, but this is one that struck me) as saying, apropos a good story, “All that matters to the reader is whether the shifting of attitude and the secret life are convincing”. Yes, yes, that is what I like about this book – you can see the secret life, you can see the attitudes and ideas shift during the book, and during each conversation, as its outcome emerges, and it’s all very convincing. Thank you so much, Lucy (sibyx) for this quote, which really helped me think about this book. Almost makes me want to read the EM Forster. In fact, it DOES make me want to read it, eventually.

You bring the Mahfouz back so vividly to me -- you like just what I liked about it.... all of it, the incredible compartmentalization and that feeling of being on the cusp of change but not knowing it yet.

Hepzibah thanks you for the kind mention, sends regards.

Hi Janet, it sounds like you are absorbing your books. I think the journaling about a book is such a good idea; writing your thoughts down makes you pull out the main ideas and clarifies your understanding. I feel like I'm reading God's Philosophers along with you. Thank you for sharing with us.

I'm sorry you are back in the hospital. I know that's where you need to be, but I do hope you get to go home soon. Keep reading and posting. I'm sure the nurses appreciate such an upbeat and busy patient.

Okay so I went for a walk to a used bookstore today (what else? Luckily there are SEVEN within 10-15 mins of the hospital if you include discounters, which don't usually have much, but can surprise you) and guess what I found? Peter Abelard by Helen Waddell, which Genny mentioned way back in post #46, when I was learning about Abelard and Heloise. This is a book I never would have heard of, noticed, been interested in or picked up previously, but there it was. In fact there were two copies. The cheaper one was only £2 ($3) so I thought, "why not?" and I bought it. Amazing what a bit of sharing on LT can do for you. It's pretty short so it might get read soon too.

Donna, I'm not sure the nurses always like me. I keep pushing them to change their timetables so they don't have to wake me up at night, and I keep double checking all the drugs they give me, because I'm not on my "usual" ward (because I have the flu so have to be on a "contagious diseases" floor) and I'm not sure these other guys always get it right. And I keep sneaking out for walks when they want to take my blood pressure. But I am always very polite to them - nurses are wonderful, hardworking people pretty much without exception, in my opinion, even when their systems aren't helping them much. But they do comment on the calm atmosphere in my room - classical music, internet, books, no tv, and usually no visitors (don't worry, this doesn't bother me).

So, back to God's Philosphers:
Now the stage is set – it’s the 14th C, all the philosophy has been “christianized” and the analytical tools are well into development. Natural philosophy starts to turn into modern science. The maths and mechanics developed in Oxford spread to universities across Europe. Technology flourishes – as well as spectacles, both the compass and the clock are developed and refined. Medcine finally starts to develop. But in 1348, the first wave of the plague – the Black Death – hit Europe, killing more than 1/3 of the entire population, incuding many scientists, scholars and monks, who tended to live in more congregated and therefore susceptible places. Scientific endeavor, and even the belief in scientific progress, just came to a stop, as did much of civilization as a whole.

It took until well into the next century for civilization to start to recover. Gradually, philosophers started thinking about science again, and about the insignificance of humanity as demonstrated by the plague – surely the earth, and man, couldn’t be the center of the universe, and surely the universe had to be even bigger than they thought, to encompass all of God’s greatness. Interestingly, though, although some people even went so far as to speculate about life beyond earth, they didn’t take this line of thought further.

On a more practical level, in 1406 Ptolemy’s Geography was rediscovered and translated, sparking interest in calculations of the size of the earth and speculation about where it was and wasn’t possible to sail, which sailors then tested. Equally critically for the future of Europe, the development of canon and gunpowder played a key role in the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, and the development of the printed book in 1455 meant access to scientific and philosophical knowledge could now be spread further, and be safer from political interference and accidental loss.

The "modern world" is ready to begin.

Janet, I loved this last description of God's Philosophers-- from the setback of the Black Plague to the development of the printed book. As soon as I get off of LT, I'm going to see if my library has this.

And what a great thing to find the book Genny mentioned. That's why I love browsing in bookstores so much, you never what you'll find. It's like a treasure hunt!

Ohhhh this is painful to hear, seven shops within ten-fifteen minutes! I've been wanting to go to Middlebury to the two shops I like for over a month now, a whole month, and every time it looks like a go there is a huge snowstorm, or the LD is sick or something....... I think it will be spring before I get there at this rate.

#107: Congratulations on finding the Waddell book so quickly, Janet!

Are there so many still within such a short distance of where you are? I tend to think of all the bookshops that have gone, though I'm off this afternoon and am wondering where to go after my first stop, Persephone Books.

I have some fairy tale retellings by Helen Waddell, I think.

Heloise and Abelard are characters in a historical mystery series by Sharan Newman which I've enjoyed the first couple of books in a lot, have to catch up with the rest (the main character is a young woman, Catherine LaVendeur).

#111 - yep. Skoob, Judd St, Oxfam in Gower St, the two discounters on the Euston Rd near Kings X, a little discounter near the Gower St store which says it's going out of business, and a littler discounter on Tottenham Ct Rd which in fact may have gone out of business since Xmas, haven't checked. Also of course Waterstones, the specialist Middle East/Africa shop near the Uni (can't remember the street), the Socialist book shop (is that the name?) on Gower St, the London Review bookstore. Not even touching on Charing Cross Road. It's the only compensation for being stuck in the hospital.

Bookmarks (SWP bookshop) is on Bloomsbury Street practically opposite Oxfam which is also there. The discount shops on Euston Road are great. And there's one I think you've missed - Judd Street books on Marchmont Street (they used to be on Judd Street) is good for secondhand crime and literary fiction, review copies and remainders.

Yeah, I meant all those but got some of the names and addresses wrong :) I can always find SOMETHING. Good job I haven't joined the book buying ban some people have!

"Skoob" The 60's are alive and well!!!

So, the whole time I’ve been reading God’s Philosophers, I knew/felt that Hannam had a bit of an agenda, and in the next two chapters, right in the middle of the book, between the Middle Ages as such, and the beginnings of the “modern era”, it bursts into view. He really hates that we call the period around the 15th C “the Renaissance”, as if it was the beginning of something better than what came before. Basically, as more Greek speakers, and more Greek texts, became available in Western Europe after the fall of Constantinople, the intelligensia of the day decided they wanted to reject the “corrupt” and “mistaken” translations (and there were crucial mistakes in some of them) of the ancient texts and go back to the originals, learning Greek and studying not only the sciences but the humanities (it was in this period that the Iliad and the Odyssey once again became well known). While most of us grew up thinking this was a very good thing, and led ultimately to the Enlightenment, as well as producing some great art, his argument is the opposite. He says that far from being progressive/enlightened, etc., the Humanists were in fact completely reactionary. He says they rejected the idea that any new or better thinking had happened in the previous however long, and only wanted to stick to what Aristotle and a few other selected Greeks had said. He says they rejected all things medieval along with those translations, so they destroyed many commentaries, and many manuscripts, which were recycled into book covers (!), and might have completely destroyed all that progress the Church encouraged, but for the lucky timing of the invention of printed books, which meant those so inclined could still get copies of the medieval versions and commentaries.

Then comes the Reformation, also a “back to basics” movement, of course, arguing that there is no need for lots of commentary/guidance in religious affairs, nor need for church intervention on your behalf with God but that the bible can be understood on its own, and forgiveness achieved without penance (and certainly without paying the church for it) - apologies if I am getting this wrong, I mean no insults to any churches. Again, of course, many if not most of us have been brought up thinking it was the rise of Protestantism, with its emphasis on individuality and its work ethic, that moved science and technology forward in the next period. And again, he rejects this. He says analysis shows that Protestants and Catholics were equally responsible for developments in science. He has the interesting thought that since most history of science has been written in English, and most English writers are at least nominally Protestant, in effect they have written all that history with an anti-Catholic bias.

I am no way qualified to comment on this, or to judge his qualifications to do so, although as I see he has degrees in Physics, History and the History of Science from Oxford, London and Cambridge, I am guessing he knows whereof he speaks. So, if he says the Church didn’t hold back science in the Middle Ages, didn’t burn people at the stake for their heretic scientific views, didn’t prevent Copernicus from publishing his ideas, and did more than the Humanists to move things forward, I am prepared to believe him.

Anyway, it looks like the rest of the book is going to be about what happened next, how these medieval developments led to the “modern” developments we are more familiar with.

I'm still stunned at the number of book stores you have to choose from, even specialty ones. That's at least some compensation for being in the hospital. Hope you're soon back at home Janet.

Wonderful that you found the Waddell book so soon after I'd mentioned it. I hope you enjoy it. It's many years since I read it, but Waddell writes well I recall.

It's interesting to hear your latest update on the Hannam, and his agenda, which does not surprise me. I think he falls within a fairly recent trend of revisionist history, challenging the anti-medieval bias of much previous scholarship and therefore of commonly held views. A writer on religious history with a somewhat similar agenda is Eamon Duffy, whose Stripping of the Altars shows that contrary to commonly held views, English religious practice pre-Reformation was not hopelessly corrupt and stagnant, and that therefore much of value was swept away when reform was imposed.

I'm not enough of a scholar either to know how accurate Hannam's case is (or Duffy's for that matter); it may well be that in their eagerness to offer a corrective they are in danger sometimes of overstating their case - but I think writers such as these are helping us to a more balanced view of the role of the Middle Ages in the development of science and other aspects of human thought.

On the destruction of manuscripts, it must be said that the practice of re-using older manuscripts as binding strips and end-papers for newer books had gone on for centuries: parchment was never wasted (and we are still uncovering fragments of Anglo-Saxon and other early manuscripts as a result today, when later books are re-bound). I wasn't aware of how much the (Catholic) renaissance scholars indulged in this destruction, but I did know of the distressing wholesale destruction of older books carried out during the Protestant reformation. Many years ago I was reading a rather lumbering tome on the history of libraries that began way back with Alexandria and gathered speed through the early and high middle ages as libraries grew and developed in the West, until suddenly I was reduced to tears by the description of books being wheeled out of libraries, piled up and burned, or recycled as shoe leather, in the upheavals of the 16th century.

I saw another copy of the Waddell book in Oxfam this afternoon! And I'd never even heard of it before (though I didn't buy that one).

Janet, I'm sorry that I'm posting so late, but I absolutely love your ongoing discussion of God's Philosophers, which now is at the top of my wish list after three of Tony Judt's books, and I greatly appreciate your summary of Palace of Desire, as I've read the first two books in the Cairo Trilogy and plan to read Sugar Street later this year. I want to read several of the books on the history of science that I've accumulated over the past few years, including The Age of Wonder by Richard Holmes, Flesh in the Age of Reason by Roy Porter, and Life Ascending by Nick Lane.

Although not a used bookstore, the Wellcome Collection on Euston St has a branch of Blackwell's inside, with a good selection of books on medicine and science.

I'll almost certainly adopt your idea of posting summaries and thoughts about some of my nonfiction tomes later this year.

Keep up the good work; yours is currently the most interesting thread on LT, IMO.

What he says!

Particularly this last interaction betw Janet and Genny.

Wow. Thanks, Darryl and Lucy. I don't know what to say. I'm glad people are finding things interesting, and are chipping in to make it moreso. It's ironic that the book that is doing this is about religion and pre-modern science, neither topic one I read a huge amount about. Maybe that's why I have commented so much - such a lot of it is news to me.

As for bookstores, yes, you're right Darryl, I forgot about the Wellcome one (in fact, I can see right into the Wellcome building from my room! They have a big leisure room at the top with a table tennis table, some gym equipment and a piano!), and also the Quaker bookshop a little further down in their building. In the other direction, there's French's theatre bookstore. All this still within a 10 minute walk. The joys of the big city!

I'm finding it really interesting reading all your comments too, and even checked how much the book is on Book Depository... a measly 9 Euros. Noooo!!!! I've wishlisted both your book and and the one Genny talked about.

Am doing a London trip later this year, sans kids, and will be seeking second-hand bookshop advice - and bringing an empty suitcase too.

Hope you're home soon and are ok. I posted you Imperium earlier this week, at last, before I read that you're back in hospital.

While commenting as I go on God’s Philosophers has been a very positive experience for me, I have realized that fiction can’t really be treated in the same way, because, well, it would be rude to give away the plot as I encounter it. But I still do want to pull together some thoughts on Palace of Desire along the way rather than just attempt an overall review of it at the end. For example, one of the things that is striking me is that there must be political overtones/undertones/allegory in here, and that Egyptian readers, or anyone who knows enough about Egypt in the 1920’s, would be spotting things I am missing. It’s like when I read Zweig’s Beware of Pity – if the reader really didn’t know about the First World War, the significance of the summer 1914 setting of the story would be completely lost.

A key theme in the book is the coming of age of Kamal, the youngest son of the family (don’t worry, no spoilers coming!). Does this parallel a coming of age of the Egyptian nation? He himself draws this parallel more than once – for example, when he feels betrayed in love he likens his perceived betrayal by his upper class friend to the betrayal of the nation by its upper classes, he likens his beloved’s perceived rejection of him to the nation’s rejection of Sa’d Zaghlul, the only man he feels is defending Egypt’s true interests (as he feels he defends his beloved’s). Mahfouz tells us that “Kamal felt the same emotion and passion about the politcal situation as he did about his personal condition”. And later, as he bemoans the stifling influence of his parents on his life, he says to himself “grant me a nation with no history and a life without a past”. Nations, as well as families, are seldom if ever granted this luxury, and the past always plays a part in how we face the future.

Just a note on the spelling of the author's name - the touchstone has transliterated it as Nagieb Mahfoez, but my edition of the book has it as Naguib Mahfouz, so that's what I'm using.

#123 - Cushla, thanks for sending Imperium - I do so want to read it, and it will be a treat to await me at home (or get brought to me by the family!). If you do get to London, it would be great to meet you. And for 9 euros, grab God's Philosophers quickly - that's less than I paid for it here.

I'm sure you are onto something -- when I read Mahfouz I nosed around a little reading about the basics of Modern Egyptian history/politics, but saw it was too huge a subject to look at casually. The Ottoman Empire fades, the British Empire takes over, an infrastructure of bureaucrats, vaguely aristocratic types, and academics and so on remains fairly stable until independence when other factors -- social unrest, new ideas, start tearing apart the fabric of an older way of life.... exciting and awful, hopeful and disastrous simultaneously.... Egypt more stable than most though.

I'm popping back to add a book title. This is the single best book I've read about the history of the whole area as it came out from under the rule of the Ottoman Empire - it is so readable you can't put it down: A Peace to End All Peace by David Fromkin. This is a ***** star effort.

Cushla, I'd love to meet you too - have you any idea when in the year it might be?

Probably April, May or June. I'm thinking about coming over for 4 days and just doing museums and bookshops and meeting friends so I would LOVE to meet you guys! I will probably go down to Kent one day, and possibly to Reading another day, but that'll still leave a couple of days. We're still figuring out our schedule for the year.

Janet, I am trying not to be buying any books but hey, 9 Euros....

Oh, a London meet up! How wonderful! If you all decide to do it, you ought to make a separate thread as time gets closer. There are several others in England who might like to get together as well, if you all are amenable.

It’s always exciting when one aspect of one’s reading accidentally coincides with another, raising issues that otherwise would have remained unnoticed. After all the reading and discussing I have been doing about the relationship between Faith and Reason in the Christian Middle Ages, it was really interesting to come across the exact same debate in the mind of one of the characters in Palace of Desire. This character has grown up in an extremely traditional household, where everything is attributed to God’s will, and where it would be incredible to ever hint otherwise, or to doubt the absolute truth of every tenet of the Muslim faith. By virtue of his university studies, he is exposed to some modern scientific ideas and begins to doubt the fundamentalist, anti-intellectual, anti-enquiry version of the faith he has been taught. Here is a quote from one of his interior monologues on the subject:

“By freeing himself from religion he would be nearer to God than when he believed. For what was true religion except science? It was the key to the secrets of existence and to everything really exalted. If the prophets were sent back today, they would surely choose science as their divine message.”

This takes place in the 1920’s in Egypt (although written some time later), and yet again shows that this debate is not one confined to the Middle Ages, but carried on into the 20th, and surely still into the 21st centuries, and is one that many believers have struggled with. I really really want to read more about Arabic science now, because I know they certainly did a lot of science in the Middle Ages, so Islam, like Catholicism, can’t have been completely opposed to it, although this sort of debate must have been going on all the time. I do have a good one on my list, written last year, but I don’t have my list with me. Well, another thing to look forward to when I get home.

I have finished my first book of the year! I have been commenting as I go, a bit, so here is just a short overview - this is a 5-star read for me, and if you haven't read the first of these - Palace Walk - you really really should try it.

1. Palace of Desire by Naguib Mahfouz

This book, the second in a trilogy, continues to follow the Al Jawad family and some of their relatives and acquaintances. The relationships between the characters, and their own internal thoughts and feeings, are shown mainly through a series of conversations and interior monologues combined, which sounds like it might be boring but is in fact really fascinating. Whereas the first book (Palace Walk) focused on the traditions and stability of their lives and local community, this one is more about their desires – explicitly about sexual desires, but also religious, intellectual, social and political ones. Underlying it all is the sense that change is in the air, even as the characters do their best to ignore it. Gradually, all the types of authority and certainty that have made their society what it is start to recede.

It’s the end of an era, portrayed in a very telling scene where Kamal, the youngest son, now a university student, goes into the sitting room during “coffee hour”, a time when previously his mother and all his brothers and sisters gathered to share their news of the day. He sees only his mother and her servant, sitting calmly together, and realizes they are all that is left of that traditional way of life. The married sisters have coffee in their own homes, and the brothers no longer bother.

As the book ends, it is obvious that monumental change is imminent for both the family and the country – it’s practically a cliffhanger, and I can’t wait to read the final installment.

Congrats on book #1 -- it is certainly a great one.

Janet, you're making me want to read Palace Walk right away so I can get to Palace of Desire but it will have to wait until at least March. That's one of the hardest things about LT--I keep hearing about books I want to read right away but have no time for at the moment.

Janet, my library lists this-- The Cairo trilogy / Naguib Mahfouz ; translated by William Maynard Hutchins ... et al. ; with an introduction by Sabry Hafez. Is this the correct match? looks wonderful!

#133 - If you have to wait, at least you know you have a treat in store! If you can push it up, I'd recommend it!

#134 - Yes, the whole thing is called the Cairo Trilogy - Palace Walk, Palace of Desire, Sugar Street (it's no spoiler to say these are the streets where the three generations covered live). I don't know if there is more than one translation, but he is the main translator of the one I read. My edition doesn't have that intro, but I guess that's because it's just the one volume, not the whole trilogy.

Okay, back to God’s Philosophers. After a couple of chapters listing out some people and some achievements that Hannam thinks need more recognition, the rest of the book is more or less devoted to some of the big names of the next phase of science – Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo. Rather than seeing them as individual geniuses of science, Hannam again puts each firmly in the context and traditions emerging from the Middle Ages.

Copernicus was a student of Ptolemy’s geometry, but he hated that Ptolemy’s calculations and model of the solar system weren’t completely accurate (because God wouldn’t make mistakes). He so wanted to get it right, and improve the model, that he went and read all the maths and astronomy-related works he could find, even ones that had been more or less ignored by most scholars, and including some ancient Greek texts that had hypothesized heliocentric models. He became convinced of the heliocentric model, and wrote up the maths to demonstrate it, but only published his work in 1543, at the very end of his life, and with a preface from a friend stating it was “only a hypothesis”. Hannam says this wasn’t because of religious worries, but because the whole idea was so fantastic that the preface writer didn’t think anyone would belive it. To be fair, in order for the “fixed stars” to appear stationary in the context of the heliocentric model, the universe would have to be a billion times bigger than had previously been believed. It must have required a huge mental effort to accept a change like that, especially since people were inclined to believe God would have made things as elegant as possible – why would the universe need to be that big when the current model worked fine with a much smaller one?

Then, in 1572, a huge supernova appeared in the sky, followed by a comet in 1577 and another supernova in 1604. Astonomers all over Europe observed and measured these, and their calculations showed clearly that these were extra-atmospheric events. This pretty much put paid to the theory that the heavens were permanently unchanging, and opened the way for more serious consideration of Copernicus’ ideas. I wonder how much longer it might have taken if not for those lucky events?

As an interesting aside, Hannam also describes how Copernicus’ caluclations were used to help the Church correct the calendar. In 1582, 10 days were “skipped” in the calendar, to correct for all those 365¼ day years over those centuries, and the rules about leap years in centuries were changed to make it work better. But….. only Catholic countries made this change then, while Protestant countries adopted it later, so that for some time different countries used different dates, which must have been a bit confusing. In England, apparently, the change was only made in 1752! And, one of those little quirky facts of history, the loss of those 10 days in 1752 explains why the English tax year ends on April 5th, 10 days later than the traditional “settling up” timings of “quarter days”, which would have been the 25th of March. So now you know.

Well that is indeed interesting -- I know I read about the missing ten days before -- but not the tax item.

For some reason I'm having fits of envy about the idea of the London meet up. It's very silly of me!

I am skipping over your review of Palace of Desire because I am hoping to get to that one this year.

#137 - Well, you'd be welcome to come over and join us :)

#138 - I hope you do, Stasia. I am saving the third one, because I can't bear to think of being finished with it.

Believe me I'm thinking about it!

An international London meet up would be great - I might even make it down from the far reaches of the North!

I did know about the missing 10 days and the tax year thing (I love geeky calendar trivia!) - It must have been a nightmare indeed when so many counties were using different calendars, and now for historians of those periods to be clear what date they are talking about!

#142 - Genny, it would be so exciting if you could come down, too. I guess it all depends on Cushla's schedule first of all.

As for the calendar thing, I think it's interesting that England could go for so many years on a different calendar and that it didn't matter very much most of the time. Most people probably couldn't have cared less!

Nearly there with God’s Philosophers.

Hannam ends by discussing two leading figures of the 17th Century, Kepler and Galileo. Kepler is clearly one of Hannam’s heroes. Using the careful observations made by the astronomers of the recent supernovas and comet, Kepler refined Copernicus’ heliocentric model and worked out that the planets have elliptical rather than circular orbits (you remember that from school, don’t you?). He also studied light, and worked out how humans see. Hannam likes him because he was motivated by faith, built on the (medieval, Catholic – although he was a Protestant) traditions of the universities, and credited his sources. Here are two quotes:
“Kepler cracked the mystery of the planets’ movements because of his faith in God’s creative power.”
“He had solved two of the greatest scientific problems of the Middle Ages – how the planets moved and how we can see. He did so driven by a relentless Christian faith and working in the medieval traditions of the universities”.

Finally, we have Galileo. He is not one of Hannam’s heroes. He plagiarized shamelessly, apparently (which I guess writers really hate), and made out that he had just discovered or proved things which, in fact, lots of scholars already knew or accepted. You know what? I don’t care. I’m very glad Galileo came along when he did and was so smart. I don’t care if he forgot a few thank yous and “Op. cits.” along the way. His big breakthrough was the careful use of evidence to support theory. To get the best possible data, he built the best yet telescope, and observed many previously unknown stars and moons, the rings of Saturn, moon craters, and the phases of Venus, and he wrote it all down. Armed with this new evidence, even the Church’s top astronomer, Clavius, had to agree the model of the solar system had to change. There was still some controversy over publication of Galileo’s works (Hannam says this was political, because he was rude about the Pope, but it looked pretty religious to me), but eventually his work avoided suppression and became common currency. Hannam sums up his contribution like this:
“Galileo’s achievement lay in bringing together what had been done before, disposing of the vast amount that was irrelevant or simply wrong, and then proving the remainder with controlled experiments and brilliant arguments. A kind of new science did indeed begin with him, but there is no denying that he built on medieval foundations. Without them, he would never have been able to cover a fraction of the ground that he did, even in the long life he was granted.” He just never misses a chance to bang home his point about building on the past. Okay, I got it.

I just noticed I lost your thread and I missed so many interesting postings.
I'll have a look at Palace Walk, that trilogy sounds very tempting.
An international London meet-up? Hmmm...

#145 - nice to see you! This potential London meet up is getting very international - it would be fantastic to meet you. And do have a look at Palace Walk, you won't be sorry.

I still haven't figured out dates but I am excited already! I need to check when English holidays are to avoid them, and I don't think it'll be April because of the royal wedding hoo ha.

Janet, I bought God's Philosophers and it should turn up next week. And yes the Swiss parcel was me! Hope you like it. I have the Palace Walk trilogy here, bought it a few years ago in Wellington and it made it into the boxes.

What great conversations that I've missed til now. Janet, thanks for your pm indicating that you are home from the hospital.

Hugs to you brave lady!

A London meet up, oh me, oh my, how I wish I had the $ to go to London. I've never been there. I fear I would be one of those tourists hanging out at the tower of London, mouth agape, camera clicking. Sounds really weird, but I want to go to tower green and see the spot where Anne Boleyn was beheaded.

Please continue to mend Janet! You are important to so many of us.

Well, I'm not QUITE home - I'm waiting for my medicines to be ready, but should be leaving within the hour. Meanwhile, I can post my last post on God's Philosophers:

So (ha ha, I have been following the Beowulf conversations!). I finally came to the end of God’s Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science by James Hannam. Hannam ends with the interesting observation that the word “scientist” was only coined in the 19th Century, and that we shouldn’t forget that before that it was philosophers, and primarily theologians that asked the big questions like “how far away are the stars?”, “how do we see?”, “how do things move?” and so on. He says the Middle Ages contributed to the foundations of modern science in four ways:
- Development of institutions (universities) where natural philosophy could flourish
- Technological advances, often for practical purposes, but aiding the study of natural phenoma as well (compass, clock, lenses)
- Metaphysics (that is, a reason for doing it to begin with) – the desire to better understand God by better understanding his creation.
- Theories which could be tested – this was a development of the later Middle Ages, in particular after philosophers started to combine maths with philosophy.

Of these, it seems he feels the metaphysics must be the most important, because just before he moves into that summary he leaves us with this view:

“However, the most significant contribution of the natural philosophers of the Middle Ages was to make modern science even conceivable. They made science safe in a Christian context, showed how it could be useful and constructed a world view where it made sense.”

My own view is that it’s too bad they had to “make it safe”, but that was the world they lived in, so it’s good that they found a way to do that.

I have really enjoyed this trawl through the Middle Ages, and learned a lot about how people perceived the world around them, what kinds of questions they asked, how the Church supported or interfered with that, and how all this lead to later developments that we may have previously believed came directly from the Greeks, skipping over 1000 years of thinking and ideas. I still like the Greeks, and the Renaissance, better, so I guess I am an unreconstructed Humanist, but at least I’m a better informed one now! Thanks to everyone who has shared the journey with me.

Been lurking in your thread, Janet, but I'm popping up to say that I've been enjoying God's Philosophers through your thread. Galileo was hauled up by the Inquisitors as a heretic, and had to recant under torture, many of his scientific discoveries. So he had to rewrite one of his works as hypothetical ruminations rather than agreeing with the Copernicus theories. He did manage to sneak out one of his books to Amsterdam to be published in full glory since Holland was outside the Papal reach.

Well, Caro, see, that's just what Hannam says didn't happen. He says Galileo's problem with the Church was political rather than religious, and that he didn't have to recant anything. I don't know how to disentangle what I've always thought was true (what you say) from what he says (and he is a historian of science and has checked it out). I'd like to know "the truth", but (a) can we ever, and (b) how much more time do I want to spend on it? History is just so complicated!

I must say you've re-interested me in the Middle Ages. I haven't thought much about them since college but I'll be on the lookout for God's Philosophers.

Glad to hear you'll be on your way home soon (if you're not already there).

Easter is Fri 22 and Mon 25 April
Royal wedding Fri 29 April
May Bank Holiday Monday 2 May
Whitsun bank holiday must be Monday 30 May

So you need to come in March/earlier April or between 3-27 May, I think. I'll try to find out school holiday dates for you, and especially the Easter ones as schools here are often off for 2 weeks around Easter, assuming they're similar at least in England.

Luci

My brother comes for a visit and I fall so far behind!! Argh!! Great reading, great observations. Now I have to go re-read Palace Walk and Palace of Desire. And I did not realize there was a third, so on my wish-list it goes.

Edited for overzealous use of exclamation points (see I still left three! make that four.).

I've really enjoyed your ruminations on God's Philosophers! Hope you are home by now, and able to relax into your own space.

Janet I have loved your thoughts on God's Philosophers and I have been struggling to remind myself that I'm supposed to be cutting down on the number of books I buy and also wondering if I can somehow nudge that one in as a present for my husband so it doesn't count!

I'm also waiting to hear Cushla's London dates so I can clear my diary for a London meet-up! Actually, there's really nothing in my diary that far ahead.

Argh, I am trying to work it out, but it depends on NZ family visiting (whether, and when). At this stage I **think** it might be in June (8-12). May is when they will probably come over. April is the Royal Wedding. But I honestly don't know till we hear more from them, and I can't push them to hurry up. We already have 2 lots of visitors in May...

Cushla, don't worry, whenever you sort out your travel plans we will work something around it!

I'm glad so many people enjoyed sharing God's Philosophers with me. It was a really good reading experience for me, and an approach I think I will repeat with other non-fictions. You'll be interested to know that I had a message from James Hannam, the author! He thanked us for our discussion, and said he found it interesting and useful to experience his book from the readers' point of view. I thought it was very nice of him.

Wow! Kudos to you and lovely courtesy from James Hannam. Now I really want to read *G'sPs*.

That was a great discussion of God's Philosophers, and I'm impressed that Mr Hannam thanked you for your views about it. I've just ordered it from The Book Depository, as it doesn't seem to have been released in the US yet, and I'll read it later this year.

Wow! That is very cool!

That's very neat about the message from the author. I didn't realize the book wasn't out in the US yet. That explains why my library doesn't have it.

I'll be ordering God's Philosophers; I'm not sure I'm in complete agreement with Hannam, but it sounds like interesting reading. If I recall correctly, doesn't a lot of the medievalist vs humanist debate come down to Aristotleian principles vs Platonism? If you're interested in reading further, Janet, you might see if you can lay hands on a copy of Aristotle's Children by Richard Rubenstein. I used to have two copies of this; if I find the second, I'll let you know and pop it in the mail. I'm fascinated by what I think of as the transmission of knowledge in this period, particularly the 14th & 15th centuries. Which bits of natural philosophy, etc., were crucial in clearing the way for the Enlightenment, etc.? What would have happened had the printing press NOT been developed when it was -- so close in time to the collapse of Byzantine Constantinople and the growing acceptance of a wider range of Greek/Roman ideas? I'd like to get around to reading biographies of Aldus Manutius (the Venetian printer who invented the paperback) and Poggio Bracciolini (arch-humanist!) this year, if poss.

I may be in London at the end of March/early April. As I posted elsewhere, I've been invited to the Skoll confab on global philanthropy/social venture capital at Oxford, and would certainly spend a few days in London if I can make it over. Fingers and toes crossed I can get some assignments lined up to justify the expenses of the trip.

I didn't realize it wasn't out in the US yet. It's usually the other way around!

Suzanne, thanks for the suggestion. My library does not have it listed, so I'd love it if you sent me your second copy if you find it. I think Hannam would say that EVERYTHING lead to the Enlightenment, not just a few things, and also that some things were needlessly thrown away by the "back to Aristotle" movement. Not sure about Aristotle v Plato - I think from a science point of view it's just about accepting that progress was made duing the Medieval period, building on both of them. The printing press certainly made things happen more quickly, which I guess is why we think there was this huge new period of learning, the likes of which had never been seen before - not necessarily smarter people, or the impact of release from religious shackles (Hannam says the 16th C was at least as religious as earlier times), but rather, I guess, lots more people got access to knowledge, so more chances for things to progress more quickly. I didn't think I'd be interested in reading more about this period after this book, but actually I find that I am. So, more onto the list!

Oh, and it would be great to meet you if you do get to London.

While I was finishing God’s Philosophers and waiting to get out of the hospital, I read a few other shorter, lighter books, so my total for the year is now 6. I am not going to review any of them, but here are my brief comments:

3. Sizzling Sixteen by Janet Evanovich
I have enjoyed these Stephanie Plum books right from the beginning. Okay, they’re silly, not much happens, and they’re all the same, but they are fun. Or they were, until this one, which I thought was just bad. No real story, no character development, just “appearances” from each player Hmm, I remember saying the same thing recently about the latest #1 Ladies’ Detective Agency book. Have I just lost patience for this style of writing, or is this another author whose series has run out of steam? Either way, I think it’s another one I am done with. Good thing I have some new series to get on with!

4. Remnant Population by Elizabeth Moon
This book is terrific. Even if, or maybe especially if, you “don’t do” science fiction, I urge you to read this. It was recommended to me by Peggy (lizzieD) , and Peggy, I can’t thank you enough. Ofelia Falfurrias is one of the best protagonists I have ever come across. She is an older (70-something) woman living as a colonist on another world with her unsympathetic son and daughter-in-law. When the colonists are evacuated and the world abandoned, she contrives to stay behind. For 100 pages she lives alone, tending her world, revelling in her new freedom (she takes off all her clothes and throws away her shoes). The rest of the book is a “first contact” story, nicely told, with the clear message that “ordinary”, kind human beings are something to be valued, and the even clearer one that older women are not “past it”, but can and do contribute to society in important ways. I just loved it.

5. Death in a Strange Country by Donna Leon
The second Inspector Brunetti book. He’s a good character, and so are his wife and various minor players. This series is shaping up nicely, and I will try to work my way through them in order this year, maybe one a month, as a break from harder reads. My library system has all of them in various branches, so I just need to remember to order each one as I come to it.

6. Stalking the Angel by Robert Crais
Another series I have recently started – this is the second “Elvis Cole” mystery. A bit too much “shoot first ask questions later” for my liking, but good quick reads, more in the Raymond Chandler style than most modern detectives I read. Again, I’d like to work my way through them in order, but my library is missing numbers 3 and 4, so I am slightly stuck until I find them in second hand shops or at friends’ houses. Well, I do like a quest, and I’m sure they’ll turn up eventually.

Remnant Population sounds great. I'm off to WL that one. Thanks to you (and Peggy) for the recommendation.

I went even further, I ordered a copy. The terrific just put me over the edge.

*HAPPY DANCE* I'm absolutely delighted that you enjoyed it, Janet! I enjoy all of Elizabeth Moon, but this one and The Speed of Dark (which deals with a high-functioning autistic young man) are my favorites.

Remnant Population is now on the 2011 reading list.

Thanks for your excellent recommendation.

How are you feeling?

I remember reading and enjoying Remnant Population when it first came out 15 years ago. I still have it, along with all the other Moon books, here in my library--may be time for a re-read soon. I wonder if I could sneak it into the Future Women group read.

I'm going to hunt down a copy as well. I enjoyed The Speed of Dark enough to want to read more of her work.

Gosh, I hope you all like it as much as I did! And I guess I have to read The Speed of Dark now.

And I am feeling okay, thanks, Linda. Hope you are, too.

Now that I’m home, I have picked up Sondheim’s Finishing the Hat again, and am trying to just go through one show a day. Yesterday I read about A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, which was a massive hit for him in the ‘60’s. I like the film, although it seems very dated now, and I love the stage show – a farce is always better on stage, in my opinion, because the timing of entrances and exits is often key to the humor, and it’s all visible on stage. He includes all the lyrics for each show, even those that were cut before the final version, and explains what he likes and dislikes, and why things were cut. It is often that case that songs just don’t work as well as they are expected to, within the context of the show, so even if they are really good they get cut, or changed. In this show, they also took the decision to have hardly any songs in the second act, so as not to interfere with the speedy pace necessary for a farce to work as it approaches its climax.

Then today I read about Anyone Can Whistle, a show I know nothing about, not even a single tune. It was a big flop, and reading the description, the lyrics, and the explanation of its development, I could see why. The plot, characters and songs all seemed quite forced, and unengaging. Yet Sondheim lists some of these lyrics as among his favorites, so maybe with a great production it would come to life. I doubt it will get many chances.

Loved your comments about Remnant Population and added it to my wishlist. Glad that you are home!
--BJ

Just popping in...! Love the sound of Remnant Population. : )

Hi Janet. After dropping lots of hints I think I am getting a copy of God's Philosophers for my birthday :-)

Good to see your home again (I think I missed that) and Remnant Population was already on the wishlist but I'm glad you enjoyed it so much.

Thanks, BJ, Kim, Heather. I'd love to know what you think of Remnant Population when/if you get around to reading it.

I really enjoyed Remnant Population when I read it last year. Glad to see you liked it, Janet!

I just ordered a copy of Remnant Population from Paperback Book Swap so I'm looking forward to reading it soon. Glad to hear you liked it too, Stasia.

I'm so glad you're home Janet. I've added Remnant Population to my wishlist. I've read The Speed of Dark and liked it very much, so I hope you do get to read it.

Since my efforts to read more than one book at a time, and to stop to consider after each chapter or section, have been proving so successful, I decided to apply the same approach to reading some short stories (alongside my other reading). I am not a good short story reader. I tend to like those where a narrator is telling a story, either to me or to someone else, so it’s chronological, with a beginning, a middle and an end. If it’s a bit more experimental, or open-ended, or just descriptive with no development, I just don’t see the point. I’m sure I’m missing a lot, so when I saw a copy of David Foster Wallace’s Oblivion on the library shelf, I thought this might be a good one to try out my new approach on. He’s so highly regarded, and I’ve never read anything by him, and the stories aren’t straightforward, to say the least.

The first story is called “Mr. Squishy”. Ostensibly about a man leading a market research focus group, there’s a lot else going on here, with his thoughts on the process, on his co-workers, and his life, not to mention someone climbing up the outside of the building, and a long discussion about making poison. Nothing whatsoever gets resolved, or even explained, although it does leave you thinking about possible scenarios. Normally, this is exactly the kind of thing I hate. Who is climbing up the building? Why? What will happen when he reaches the floor where the focus group is happening? Who is the “I” who appears several times – the focus group leader? a participant? the climber? the author? Who has been making ricin? Is it really in the cakes? Or is everything simply the leader’s random thoughts as he rambles on to the group? In a full length book, where I have lived with the characters longer, I might care more about them and their possible futures than I could here. Also, the densely packed detail about marketing and market research would have been really annoying, except that as it happens I work in market research, so I had a bit of a clue what he was talking about and I found it funny and oh so true, but I wonder what the other 99% of readers would have made of it. All very clever, and impressive, but ultimately I just don’t get the point of this kind of story, I guess.

Anyway, I will carry on with the rest of the stories, one at a time, and try to think hard about each one. If you have any words of wisdom to share with me on this subject, please do!

Janet, you should talk with Lucy (sibyx). She read Oblivion a couple of months ago. I think it took her awhile to get through but she ended up liking it. I keep meaning to try something by DFW but most bookstores just have a copy of Infinite Jest which looks way too huge and intimidating.

Wallace is one of those writers where I know I'm going to have to just hurl myself into the jalopy and go for the ride -- where maybe the texture is as crucial to the 'meaning' as the meaning, and the meaning is...... well....... I LOVED these stories and felt that ..... an extraordinary and wise intelligence was behind them.... and a big huge heart too ....... So far Oblivion is all I've read, but I know I will be reading every word of his over time. Anyway, I would just let it flow over you and NOT think too hard, or just think whatever you think you're thinking ...... I know zippetydoodah about market research and found it insanely fascinating.

I also resist short stories, but (and it's a huge but) infinite Jest was my book of the year last year, and I will eventually get to these. I think he may be the genius of the 20th century.

Listen to that lady behind the curtain there at 185!!!!!!

Right, so letting it just flow over me seems the way to go with Oblivion. I remember Lucy liked it - I think that must be how it got on my list. In fact, since this post I have read the next couple of stories and they felt "easier", so maybe I am getting used to the style. I would love to think I might work up to Infinite Jest, because even if he is only maybe the genius of the 20th century I don't want to miss out!

If and when you feel brave enough to tackle it, I'll be there with you. I'm kind of waiting for a reading buddy or two before I take it on. Of course, I have to finish A Glastonbury Romance before I tackle any more bigfellas.

Just poking in to say that I met David Foster Wallace once. So so funny and wonderfully kind and little-kid-like silly. He was a great writer and a lovely person.

#188 - it will be months and months before IJ can even begin to get on my list. I am determined to finish some things I have decided on, not keep getting completely sidetracked! But I would LOVE your company, so I'll let you know.

#189 - Was it at a book event? A social event? Inquiring minds want to know! But he also had his demons, I guess.

#188/190 I'd love to be an additional reading buddy for Infinite Jest but would also need to wait a couple of months to get caught up with all the books I've already committed to.

Hi There

I'm compiling a list of birthdays of our group members. If you haven't done so already, would you mind stopping by this thread and posting yours.

Thanks.

http://www.librarything.com/topic/105833

#190 Janet: He gave the commencement speech a few years ago at the college where I work, and being a faculty member has certain privileges, so I got to chat with him for a while. The speech was amazing, and, I think, it has been published as an essay afterward, but I don't remember what the title is.

#191; ditto on Infinite Jest. I'm intrigued, but not yet convinced and I'd have to retain the right to drop out!

Sondheim is interesting -- he seems to generate either smash hits or complete fizzles. Some of the music from Anyone can Whistle has endured, but there are some of his others (Assassins? Bounce?) Passion?) where very little is ever played. I love a lot of his music -- I'll be looking forward to your thoughts on Follies, which I think of as the greatest play/musical about nostalgia I've ever seen. (Oh, and I adore the music.)

I'd be interested in taking on IJ late spring or early summer, maybe..... trails off thinking, am I insane?

No! No! No!!! You're not insane!!! Read it!! You have to read it..... You have to be willing to go with the flow and forgive him some pretty rough stuff near the beginning and in the middle. I was disgusted enough a couple of times to put it down for a week or two, but it is amazing. I'd reread it with you, but it's not time for that yet.

Hi Janet, I'm enjoying your comments on the Sondheim book. I'm kicking myself for not putting that on my Christmas list. I actually played Mayoress Cora Hoover Hooper in a production of Sondheim's Anyone Can Whistle a few years ago. I agree, the show is flawed. It does have some wonderful songs, though. I'm glad I had the chance to experience the show, because I am a bit of a Sondheim fan. I've been lucky enough to perform in productions of several Sondheim shows--Sweeney Todd, Into the Woods, Merrily We Roll Along, Anyone Can Whistle and West Side Story. He is brilliant.

Maybe I'll just have to break down and buy Finishing the Hat.

Sandy K

I would be up for IJ sometime. I actually went to college with Wallace at Amherst. I did not know him very well, but he was a really nice guy. SO smart!!

So we are getting up quite a group for Infinite Jest! I am thinking May, but let's see how it goes.

#194 - Suz, I will probably be posting something on Follies tomorrow or maybe Monday. Watch this space! The book ends with Merrily We Roll Along, so as for the later ones you mention, we have to wait for Part II to be published, which I hope will be in time for Christmas.

#197 - You should definitely read this book. You are so lucky to have an acting/singing talent so that you can take part in these wonderful shows. Personally, I have neither, but I did play the French horn passably well in college, and played in the orchestra for A Little Night Music as well as a fair number of non-Sondheim shows. Sadly, those days are long gone for me.

While bashing away on Finishing the Hat, War and Peace and Oblivion, I have finished two more mysteries from my “priority light reading” list. I am slightly dismayed to see how many detective novels I have read this year, since my aim is to have a higher percentage of “serious” fiction in the mix, but never mind, I will certainly be finishing some of those more serious books soon.

7. Among the Mad by Jacqueline Winspear

This is the sixth in the Maisie Dobbs series. Set in the late 1920’s / early 1930’s, these books convey well the tired, grey, depressed, stressful life of post-WWI London (at least, they feel like they do – I wasn’t actually there!). Most of the characters have been in the war; all have been affected by it. Although there is the de rigeur batch of upper class characters, there are also strong working class ones, and plenty of ex-soldiers trying to make a living, or living on the streets. Maisie’s (and the author’s) sympathies are clearly with those who have suffered and who continue to suffer – not much of a social safety net was in place in those days. However, these are not brilliantly written books in terms of plot, and although this one was rather darker than previous ones (in a good way), the plot was somewhat silly, and the whole climax was frankly ridiculous. But the characters did develop in ways that make me want to continue with the series, to see whether Maisie, Billy, Doreen and the others can achieve some sort of peace and move forward with their lives.

8. Started Early, Took My Dog by Kate Atkinson

This is also part of a series, the fourth Jackson Brodie book. I have always liked Kate Atkinson’s work, in particular Behind the Scenes at the Museum, her first book, which won the Whitbread Book of the Year prize a few years back. In 2008, I picked up her One Good Turn, because it looked interesting, and it was. I hadn’t actually realized it was the second in a series. Then a year later I read the third one, When Will There be Good News?. Because Jackson’s character and life really do develop a lot during each of these books, I don’t think it’s worth going back and reading the first one, Case Histories, now. But I am hooked on the series and looking forward to number 5.

Meanwhile, this one was good. Jackson has been hired to find the birth parents of a woman in New Zealand, and from this simple premise, plus some apparently unrelated and even random incidents, Atkinson develops a complicated plot and a compelling read, with plenty of plot twists. A lot of Jackson’s time is spent brooding about his life and dealing with a dog he acquires early on, not really making much progress on his case. I was happy with this, because the case is kind of incidental, and you know it will be resolved, somehow, but I guess more classic detective fiction fans might be a bit frustrated by the balance between the two elements.

It’s a good series, written by a seriously good writer, and I think it’s getting better as it goes. If you want to read them, I recommend starting with Case Histories, otherwise, like me, you might not want to backtrack once you know more about Jackson.

Glad you liked it, the new Atkinson isn't out here yet...... grrrrrr

I think it's about to come out in paperback here, according to her website, so maybe that means you will get it sooner rather than later?

They love to torture us!

So glad to hear the latest Atkinson is good. I still need to get to When Will There Be Good News?.

I have some interest in reading Infinite Jest, if you have a group read of it. I bought it for my daughter for Christmas. She won't be back here until mid-May. If she is home in time, I would like to join in.
--BJ

I'm sure we can wait for you, BJ! (It doesn't take much to cause procrastination on this one!)

Beware, this is a FOOTBALL related post!

Now, I know the majority of you think the important football today is something happening in Texas or somewhere like that after I have gone to bed, but for some of us over here, the football event of the day/week/month/year just finished:

SPOILER ALERT FOR MATCH OF THE DAY PURISTS - LOOK AWAY NOW!

LIVERPOOL 1 CHELSEA 0

You just can't imagine what this means to Liverpool fans (like us). Ha ha Fernando Torres.

Okay, football talk finished......more book talk soon.

I don't even like football but Mike was thrilled yesterday when his favourite team beat Manchester United! (Wolves)

Yes, that Wolves win is just about in the same category - we liked that one, too!

9. Oblivion by David Foster Wallace

After a shaky start, I persevered with Oblivion, and I’m happy to say I think I “get” David Foster Wallace now, at least a bit. The stories are not all the same in style, and some are shorter and ostensibly simpler (but actually very complex and clever), showing rather than telling everything you need to know about the characters involved – great examples of this are “Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature” and “Another Pioneer”. But the longer stories do all seem to share some characteristics that make them what they are:

- Everything is hyper-real, an effect created by very detailed descriptions, involving brand names, acronyms and technical jargon.
- There’s a spine to the story – the market researcher leading the group, the teacher going mad, the freelance writer trying to get his story. There is usually no resolution to this apparently main thread.
- The bulk of the story consists of various riffs, more or less related to the main story; what’s happening outside the window, what the daydreaming kid was thinking while the teacher freaked out, interns’ discussions over lunch. These tell us a lot about the characters involved (a bit like the shorter stories do), but are never intended to have resolution, so we don’t even notice that they don’t.
- Pretty much every story has something that shakes you out of the flow – often this is the subconscious (the writer’s? the narrator’s? a character’s? It’s not always clear) popping up for just a sentence or two, seemingly randomly, and frequently involving inappropriate sexual feelings, or violence, or both. Sometimes it’s a reference to a future after the story (as in 9/11 references in “The Suffering Channel”), or it could be a stylistic device intended to interrupt smooth reading – in “Oblivion”, this involved putting quotation marks around apparently random words – it’s surprising how hard it is to avoid putting emphasis on these words, even though you know it’s just random.

Throughout, the writing is excellent. Foster Wallace is often just showing off, and he really wants you to notice it. If I were that good I’d show off, too. There’s one passage, around 2/3 through “The Suffering Channel”, where Laurel Manderley, a minor character, describes a dream. It’s too long to quote in full, but it’s worth looking up, as it is one of the best passages of writing I have ever come across. In the edition I read (Abacus paperback, ISBN 0349118108), it’s on pages 301-302. It starts with “The dream involved a small house that she somehow knew was the one with the fractional address……”.

At first, the lack of a traditional “ending” bothered me a lot, but I took the advice to just let it flow, and by the end of the book I didn’t mind at all. And now I’m not sure why it did bother me so much. After all, I have read (and kind of liked) Finnegan’s Wake, and I didn’t complain about it then. Maybe I was just out of practice of reading “non-traditional” writing styles.

So, the upshot is, my experiment outside my comfort zone has been a success, and I’m ready to try more DFW, maybe even Infinite Jest later this year, since several people have volunteered for a read along, which should help keep me from backsliding.

Coincidentally, BBC radio is airing a program about DFW tonight (BBC Radio 3, 9:30 pm GMT), with Professor Geoff Ward (haven’t heard of him before but I’m sure he’ll know his stuff). I can’t listen, because the end conflicts with Match of the Day on the tv (see previous post to understand why that will be the priority around here), but I’m hoping to listen to it tomorrow on Replay. I hope he doesn’t trash all my above thoughts!

I'm so glad DFW got under your skin too -- I remember that dream, it was amazing. I'll try to scamper through 700 (yep you read that right, I've already got 400 under my belt) pages of A Glastonbury Romance to be ready by May........ It'll be a wonderful read!

ARGHHH. I'm a lifelong Chelsea fan. Only your affection for Sondheim is saving your thread from un-starring.

Loved your review of Oblivion! Congrats to your football team.
--BJ

I am not sure I am up to reading Oblivion. I think I am still too dumb for that one.

Congrats to your football team!

Now Stasia...... I know you are fully capable of reading DCF, The amount of 'heart' (I don't know what else to call it) is at the core of all that detail.... you don't want to miss out on it, I don't think. Others weigh in???

#215: OK, Lucy, I will give it a try. My local library does not have it, so who knows when that will be.

#212 - tee hee

#213 - thanks, BJ

#214 - Don't be silly, Stasia, it's not HARD, you just have to decide to take it for what it is. You read so many different types of book that this should be easier for you than for me. I am so literal minded most of the time. And the writing is truly stunning at times.

#207: Today's New York Times has an article about the Liverpool vs Chelsea match, which includes a photo of the forlorn Fernando Torres.

Thanks, Darryl. My daughter has collected a whole lot of "unhappy Torres" pictures on her FB page to taunt her Chelsea supporter friends with. Well, they give as good as they get.

#217: I am so literal minded most of the time.

Me too! Although I do enjoy magical realism for some reason.

I have a feeling I live near the opposite end of that spectrum!!!! Only the weights on my ankles keep me from sailing away.....

So if I see someone flying over my house, that's you having taken off the weights? :)

#221 *Picturing Lucy bobbing around in mid-air, barely anchored by her ankle-weights* :)

Janet

I'm simply stopping by to say I hope you are feeling chipper and health problems are behind you...

Hugs!

Thank you, Linda! I am feeling pretty good, most days. It will be months before I can say it's "behind me", though, as it takes around a year to recover fully from the transplant, in terms of energy and immunity to random illnesses and infections, so I just have to be really patient and take each day as it comes. Sounds like you are doing a lot better now, thankfully.

However, if she has an umbrella its Mary Poppins.

It's good to hear of your "pretty good, most days" health report, Janet. Thumbs up!

#221-223 -- sounds like you've found a cheaper way to fly than British Airways, Lucy!!

A day as it comes is a good way to live, anyway, I suspect. Too bad that it was something so major that requires it...

I do think there is a saying, "A book a day keeps the infections at bay." No?

I think you may be right, Suz. And I know another one - eat two apples a day to avoid a paradox.
(O.K. I'll go quietly, but I am also most joyous to hear that it's so far, so good, Janet.)

#229> OK, I like that!
--BJ

#225: I am glad to hear the good news, Janet.

Thank you all very much. Your support has been, and continues to be, very comforting to me. Not sure about books keeping away infections, but they sure keep away boredom and frustration, my other main enemies!

Lizzie, ROTFL! Am I muddling my metaphors as well??

Glad to hear things are going well healthwise!

I think muddled metaphors can be very amusing!! Hi Janet. : )

Great news that things are going well for you Janet :)

Okay, apologies for the low energy level around here lately (I mean me - you visitors are pretty high energy!). I've been reading a lot, but just don't seem to have the mental capacity to think hard about what I'm reading, or to write anything. I have just written a bit about the next part of War and Peace, which I will post on that thread as soon as I get around to typing it up.

Meanwhile, I think we jinxed me - I am back in the hospital. Nothing serious, same virus problem as last time, but SOOOOO frustrating. On the plus side, maybe I'll have more time for those write-ups.

I'm sorry, Janet. Being Pollyanna, I think that you have probably had way fewer set-backs than you might have expected. I'd have been glad if you had had none. The other thing is that although we love your write-ups (really!), we can do without them if it will keep you out of the hospital.....the same kind of thinking as the jinx.

I'm sorry to hear you're fighting that virus again, Janet. Hope it's not for long and that you have some nice escapist reading to distract you. I agree with Peggy, don't stress about writing anything for us. I know I always worry about what to write about the books I'm reading. Sending lots of soothing healing energy your way!

Sorry to hear you're back in hospital

Aw man, Janet. I hope your virus problem resolves itself quickly.

Chiming in! Miss you.

Hope it is just a quick visit. Be well!!

I'm sorry to hear that you've been readmitted to the hospital, Janet. I hope that you have a short and uneventful course.

Thank you all. I finally posted on the War and Peace thread for part 3, and tomorrow I plan to post something about Finishing the Hat, which I actually finished more than a week ago.

Any progress on the IV poles? I would think hot pink would give them some ideas :)

I hope you are out of there soonest!

Really hope you're out of hospital soon Janet. Am off to read the W&P thread now (well, skim it because I haven't finished Part 3 yet!!) I'll go and start a thread for the next part.

Janet, hope you are feeling better and out of hospital soon. It must be so frustrating for you.

I was going to post about Finishing the Hat, but I realized I was reaching the thread limit, so it's going on my new thread which is here:
http://www.librarything.com/topic/110455

I"m putting this first in the group so that we can find it easily when we're ready to see what Janet said about God's Philosophers. (I'll delete this post when we're through.)