Group picture

Anyone have anything they'd like to share? I couldn't come up with a single pic that really said what I hoped it would but I'm sure others have something suitable. Maybe if we post in this thread we could then take a vote on the one members like best?

We could be a bit nihilistic and just leave it blank.

Here are two ideas. I don't like either of them because they seem too obvious to me, but they might inspire someone else's better suggestion:

Rodin's The Thinker


one of those classic optical illusion drawings, such as "All Is Vanity"

Schrodinger's cat?

Probably there isn't a picture of it, though.

#5 Well, there is . . . and there isn't.

*grin* The best one I found was a t-shirt with "Scientists, get over it, it's been 70 years. Schrodinger's cat is dead."

Ring-ring, ring-ring

'Hello, Schrodinger's cattery. How can I help you?'

Oh, good morning. This is Mrs Smith: I brought fluffy in last weekend and I'm ready to come and collect him now. Has he been all right?

Well, yes . . . and no.

(Apologies to anyone who read it when I posted the same joke a couple of years ago.)

How about randomly rotating the three proposals? I have to say that I like No 3 but it's a bit impersonal for me, and No 2 is wonderful but, being Victorian, suggests the group is old-fashioned. No 1, essentially the figure Rodin depicted at Dante's Gates of Hell, though obvious as a group pic, appeals: a cogitating human thinking hard thoughts...

Any more thoughts, pics or votes?

I'd say let's keep looking.

The organizer of a humanist group I was in a few years ago often used the metaphor of "herding cats", which I thought was apt, but I never saw a good picture that captured the sentiment. There is a cute video though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWymXNPaU7g

Doesn't that typically refer to the challenge of leading a somewhat intractable group? I don't see a connection to rationalism or skepticism.

Hmmmm - I am sceptical that the clip has not been tweaked. :)

No self-respecting cat would allow itself to be herded.

Perhaps a Bible quote would be appropriate?

Do not quench the Spirit
Do not despise prophecies
Test all things; hold fast what is good
Abstain from every form of evil

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

I love the Escher drawing.

>13 Meredy: I think his point was that bringing people together whose only commonality was a shared disbelief could at times resemble cat-herding. However, in some of the more lively discussions, claws were bared and the fur began flying.

#15/18 Also loving the Escher. I could spend all day following these around.

I love the Escher drawing too, but again, I don't see the connection to rationalism.

Would it seem presumptuous to use a person's image--Descartes', for example?

>20 darrow:

OOh, I like that!

>21 Meredy: I don't see the connection to rationalism

Possibly a symbolic caution against the acceptance of false perspectives?

#20/22 I came here to go 'Ooh, I like that!' too. ESP maybe? (Ducks.)

If a portrait is to be used, then where better to look for examples than in the parallel thread at http://www.librarything.com/topic/147335

So far Martin Gardner has appeared three times on that list, so he would have to be a favourite.



Or what about James Randi?

>24 Booksloth: Who are you calling 'Ducks' ?

#26 :-)

#25 I'd say of those two, Randi is the more instantly recognisable, though perhaps only to me. Can anyone tell me if there's a copyright issue about using photos or other people's artwork on the site? I'd imagine there would be - or is it okay as long as we credit it?

>24 Booksloth:

Obviously, great minds think alike. ;-)

> 27: It's not hugely likely there would be complaints. But if you want to play it by the book all normal copyright issues apply.

I would hesitate to use the image of a living person, not for copyright reasons but because (a) we wouldn't want to imply collective alignment with a particular person's practices or point of view, much less discipleship, (b) they might have views or opinions that have no bearing on our topic but would seem to color their symbolic status, and (c) a living person's reputation hasn't yet solidified.

28: I know you spoke lightly, but it seems to me that great minds can differ profoundly. Don't you agree?

>30 Meredy:

Yes, I do agree that great minds can differ, often in delightful ways. Conversation would be quite boring if this weren't the case. We also wouldn't have exciting groups like this one if we all thought exactly alike.

>30 Meredy:

Oops, double post.

> 5 to 8

In his play "Copenhagen", broadcast on BBC Radio3 last evening, Michael Frayn has Niels Bohr saying that Schrodinger's cat is alive.
Or was it Heisenberg who said that?
Or did he say that it was dead.

Perhaps I'll listen to it again. Or am I getting too old for this?

One day while Schrodinger was living in Ireland during The Emergency (AKA WWII) he was stopped by a traffic guard for speeding. The guard when to the back of the car and opened the boot.
Guard: "Hey, do you know you have a dead cat in here?"
Schrodinger (in a disgruntled and annoyed voice): "Well, I know now!"

There are longer versions of that joke - - e.g.,
the traffic cops first asks "Do you have any idea how fast you were going?" etc.,....

>35 AsYouKnow_Bob:: sounds like that version ought to have Heisenberg in it?

Re. Schrodinger's cat - #7

#36 dtw42: Are you certain about that?

:^)

#39 I thought you might answer, "In principle, maybe."

...yeah, too bad the neurons are too sluggish for that sort of wit at the moment :^}

I vote for #4

It is cool, clean, simple and to the point

#42 Thanks for bringing us back to the point (though the jokes were great!) I like that one too. Any more suggestions or votes?

I also think #4 is good. It gives a real, "WTF", impression.

Yes, I like it too.

(Shame on me, to make a typo in such a short message).

Then again, I'm also very taken by #20. Anyone else interested in a new group for ditherers?

Well of course I would have choose my own suggestion #20. I have a pajama top with that printed on it.

Agreed: #20 is good too.

Maybe a photo of darrow in the pyjama top?

#49 Control yourself, Booksloth.

:( Cold shower coming up. . .

I'm sorry to say that I don't care for #4. The interrobang expresses the opposite of cool rationality. It marks a question asked in surprise and alarm--a question of the sort that skeptics and rationalists ought to be answering, not posing. Here's a description from Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang ):

"A sentence ending with an interrobang asks a question in an excited manner, expresses excitement or disbelief in the form of a question, or asks a rhetorical question."

I'd favor a simple (and small, not eye-punching) question mark over a mark that says "I'm startled, flummoxed, and thrown off balance." The calm, reasonable asking of questions does seem like an appropriate representation of the group's focus.

Another vote for #20.

> 52: Ah, I wasn't aware it had that specific meaning. That certainly makes it less attractive.

Shall we set a date (say Sunday 20th) at which I'll count up the votes and pick one?

Given that I'm from Northern Ireland I would like to follow the traditions of my birthplace and submit 20 votes for #4.

I still like #4 too.

I don't' like #20 - I don't like the dangerous bit; it could be misinterpreted too easily

#56 Sure, you can submit 20 but, being English, I get to declare 19 of them invalid. :-)

Oh no! The 800 years of oppression continues.

;)

Dunno what this thread is about, just here to lower the tone.

How about something relating to light--a candle, a lantern, a lamp, a star? or even a humble match?

Carl Sagan liked that idea well enough to use it in the title of his book about rationality: The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark.

I like the idea of a candle in the dark. None of the other suggestions have done anything for me.

How about an animated gif of light passing through a Coke bottle?
工 saw it at one Ted talk demonstration online.

Or something a little brighter, perhaps?

Or just a plain question mark ...

The inverted question mark (¿) is a punctuation mark written before the first letter of an interrogative sentence or clause to indicate that a question follows.

But perhaps too Spanish for use here.

55: Booksloth, why don't you just go ahead and pick an image that you think is suitable? It seems to me that it's your prerogative as the organizer, especially since it looks like we're not going to agree.

#68 I'd prefer to have the question mark the correct way up, too.

#69 Thanks Meredy. I'm tempted but I've offered the democratic way now so I'll stick with it. Just everyone make sure you get your votes in by Sunday. I think on personal choice I'd be tempted to go with a pic of Professor Brian Cox gazing at the heavens and looking amazed and delighted (as he has a tendency to do).

I'm thinking something like this - http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&... but I don't know how to isolate and post the photo without the website. BTW, whichever one we pick, I'll almost certainly mess up doing it so I may have to ask the person who posted the original one here to help out. :(

Wow, thanks vy0123!

He doesn't look very sceptical though.
I'd like a picture that somehow says "convince me"
I haven't found a good one yet.

The one from #20 makes me sad, actually. Because I think and I'm not dangerous at all. I see lots of injustice in the world, and all I do about it is occasionally write a grumpy comment on the internet.

He's certainly not sceptical about the universe being amazing but, as a particle physicist, it's his job not only to demand proof but to help to provide it (and that's when you get the amazed look). And he's definitely made science 'cool' for the younger generation - maybe some of them have learned to ask questions because of him.

I'll go for a right-way-up question mark. My vote ...

Like this one ...



?

Booksloth, I would like to switch my 20 votes to the Brian Cox photo, especially after his comments on astrology. I think his image would be perfect to represent what you are trying to do with this group, at least for those of us that are aware of Brian Cox's work and approach. It would be very contemporary as well.

#71 I'm tempted but I've offered the democratic way now so I'll stick with it.

I am trying to reconcile this with your imperialistic comments in #58

:-)

Aw sheesh, I said I was a sceptic. I didn't say I was rational . . .oh, hang on a minute, yes I did. In that case I'll happily accept your 20 votes for the lovely Brian. (One excellent point though, I'm not sure if he's even heard of in America which is probably where most of our votes come from).

I'm not sure if he's even heard of in America

A treat in store for them.

Is he known as a sceptic in the way that some other scientists are, notably Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins?

I guess that question always comes down to 'sceptical about what?' but, in general, yes. (Of course, I could also nominate a pic of my beloved Tim Minchin.)

Don't we have some kind of a vote-counting application built into LT?--one that allows us each to register one vote one time?

Personally, I think democracy has its place, but not everything needs to be done that way. There are times to just take charge.

When you said (55): "Shall we set a date (say Sunday 20th) at which I'll count up the votes and pick one?" I remembered seeing a second-grade classroom teacher do exactly that. She asked the children to write down their votes on an activity and then scooped up the papers and announced the result.

As an observer, I asked (discreetly), "Aren't you going to count them?"

"No," she said. "I decide what the class does. I just wanted them to feel they were part of the decision."

#84 Oh! So that's what democracy means.

It's a bit like diplomacy: letting other people have your way.

The small flaw in that is that I think most members of the group would be capable of counting the votes on the thread for themselves. At least, I'm assuming they can do that without the assistance of a counting gizmo.

>83 Booksloth: Tim Minchin

Yes, he's good isn't he. But I don't know about a photo of him - too much mascara.

#86 I think most members of the group would be capable of counting the votes on the thread for themselves.

I'm sure there have been some leaders who would not let a little thing like that stop them imposing their will on the masses.

>84 Meredy: I just wanted them to feel they were part of the decision

Isn't that just what every consultation process is about?

This discussion reminds me of the scene in the first Star Trek film, "Star Trek, The Movie", in which the Enterprise is held in position by the enormous alien cloud and Captain James T. Kirk is briefing his officers. He concludes his briefing with the words,
"We've got it exactly where it wants us!"

#87 He doesn't wear all that much these days - would that make a difference?

mmm.... possibly.

Just noticed, there's a (very) tenuous link via a dog and another skeptic betwen #64 and #73.

Sorry, this isn't Games and puzzles, is it.

there's a (very) tenuous link via a dog and another skeptic
Uhhhhhh? I'm going to need some help to find that one.

#64 Thomas Edison with his lamp. His problem, of course, had been to find a suitable material for the filament. Carbonised cotton was the answer, and this had been suggested by his dog. That's according to author, noted skeptic, ...

Oh wait can I put a late entry into the pot? I've wanted an apple. Because it's deliciously cliché.

But specifically this apple:


(hoping it comes through - lovely green apple with a question mark on it)

#94 I've got a photo of a dog.

Yes, and possibly not dissimilar fom the one in the story, "Tom Edison's Shaggy Dog" by Kurt Vonnegut, which is one of the stories in Welcome to the Monkey House. And Brian Cox, as you know, has a radio prog "The Infinite Monkey Cage".

It gives 'tenuous' a whole new meaning!

My vote is opposed to Brian Cox. He came across as incomplete when explaining an idea involving primes which was better done by another voice, in fewer, steadier words.

How about a picture of Monkton, if a face is to be used?

I have to vote for #20

I am dangerous

I don't care for just one picture of just one thinker. How can I chose one persons words over another as the best? That would like having only favorite book or lover forever and ever.

Is it possible to have several pictures and rotate them. It seems that we are never going to satisfy everyone and that way we can encompass more options.

I haven't cast a vote, so I don't know how my suggestions will be counted.

Up to you. Do you want to vote? Unless the poster states they do not wish their comments included, comments in favour of, or suggesting a particular pic will be counted as a yes. If you said somewhere that you'd like a particular one then it's as good as a vote but, as pinkozcat points out, no choice has to be set in stone and it's really not that big a deal. We're not deciding the future of the world here.

#100 Gotta say I think I'd agree about pics of individuals. My suggestion for the lovely Brian Cox, not to mention the one for Minch, were not exactly 100% serious and my own preference so far is for #20. I'd personally like whatever we choose to have at least a touch of humour because I see no reason why scepticism should have to be solemn, even though I know not everyone will get the joke (but when did they ever here on LT?)

I'm not going to tie myself down to a particular time for the vote-count (because I have a life), I'll just say if you have strong feelings one way or the other, the sooner you make them known, the more chance they have of being included. In the case of a very close finish a rotating system will be installed.

Okay, we have a picture. In fact, the votes fell more or less equally between the interrobang (#4) and 'I'm dangerous' (#20), with jbbarrett, pgmcc and BarkingMatt in favour of the former and darrow, Taphophile13, olive_spread and me preferring the latter. All the others received only one or two votes each. I took into account Pinkozcat's early preference for the interrobang too but counted it as a kind of semi-vote as it was later changed to a vote for a plain question mark, which didn't make the top 2.

The only problem now is that I can't find out how to rotate the ones we have chosen (they are currently up in the order in which I posted them). Please can someone tell me how to do this.

And let's not consider the subject closed. If anyone finds anything amazing there's no reason why we shouldn't add it.

Does that mean I get to keep the donkey?

ermm... Sorry! Wrong thread.

Only if you promise to take good care of it.

What if #20 reads:-

I think,
Therefore
I am
Gentle

( in the sense of gravity being a gentle force which can be dangerous )

skeptical?

#108 But it doesn't. :-)

#110 but truly dangerous things are unthinkable unless required

How about

I think,
Therefore
I am
A donkey

Sorry, one day after US inauguration day. Couldn't help myself. There are so many uses for that line where politicians are concerned. ;P

I think, therefore I think I think.....I think.

Going in the direction of #112 how about……

Shit Happens… and a picture of a dead or alive elephant.

115: I like that.

I abstained from voting because I preferred not to have any stake in the outcome. But that, Mr.Durick, is excellent, in my opinion.

You do know we have one? (see #105) Not that that should stop these suggestions for future additions but I just wasn't sure if anyone had noticed. Still trying to figure out how to alternate more than one though; if I can't do that we may be stuck with the same one forever.

#118 Not sure what that is but it's pretty!

#117: I know I'm late to the party :) But I'd like to advocate this one:



I took it from the video in the "Proof that there is no life after death" thread and I think it's a good starting point for a reality-based worldview. Possibly it would work better without the text, though, especially since I now notice it's crooked... I can modify it if there's interest.

Have to say my favourite from that truly excellent lecture was the one that darrow posted in the discussion thread; the one that lists 'no spoon bending, no clairvoyance, no life after death' etc.

#118 it's a comet

I thought it might be. Lovely!

>115 Mr.Durick:, 116
I agree. Of course I grew up watching Cosmos. Maybe not everyone gets the symbolism.

117: Yes, I know. I don't care for the antagonistic attitude of it. A menacing stance and a snarl imply that thought needs to be defended with threat.

You invited further suggestions, and I complimented that one.

Anything with too much fine detail, incidentally, won't show up in the reduced image that appears at the top of the threads.

#125 Ah well, can't please everyone.

Which is why I didn't vote.

Booksloth, what you might want to do is open up picture posting to everybody. That'll put all of the suggestions in the group's gallery for everybody to look at in one place and from which you can choose which is the group's picture. As it is, you can go into the gallery, "see all 2 group pictures," and select whether the badge or the interobang is the group picture.

Robert

Good idea Robert. As others mentioned, I had a feeling it was possible to rotate whatever was in there but it seems that can't be done (except manually). I'll be opening it up as of today.

Has anybody experimented to see whether animated gifs are supported? If so, one with a slow delay would provide a sort-of rotating selection...?

(they certainly are in some places on here - I remember seeing a soothing picture of tea pouring from a pot to a cup in the "Tea!" group...)