What men want

I'm not sure this really falls under the remit of this group but I've just been watching a news report that has upset me quite a bit and I wanted to discuss it with people whose opinions I respect - cue the Skeptics Group.

The report was about the situation in India where (as has been the case for many years in China too) countless female babies are being aborted. This has now led to a situation where young women and girls are so rare the men in charge are feeling the shortage and this in turn has led to widespread trafficking of young females and this is the bit I can't get my head around. Do men want us or don't they?

Although it's a subject that I'm sure could keep us going for years, I was hoping we might turn to the more general point of what women have to do do be appreciated in the world. This situation in India seems to point out the craziest of anomalies - that nobody values females enough to want to have the child but they are still wanted badly enough that, when there are so few around, people will kidnap and rape to get one. Do men want us, or don't they?

Okay, I completely understand the idea that, when a country is very poor, the tendency is towards wanting more boys who will be able to work and bring money into the family or the society. I can also understand the feeling some men in wealthier countries have, that they feel threatened by women moving increasingly into what they considered 'their' world and 'their' jobs. What I don't understand is what appears to be real hatred of an entire sex and that is what seems to be prevalent when you watch reports like this. Do men actually hate us?

Please understand I'm not talking here about any one individual and I'm not talking about YOU. I'm talking of a generalised attitude that seems to be worldwide. Does anyone know of any society in which women are actually respected and actively wanted? At various points throughout history it seems to me that women have been everything their men have ever wanted them to be, from slaves to decorations, to equal partners, and yet, underlying it all is this feeling that we are not really wanted whatever we do (even though our vaginas remain in constant demand).

This isn't a dig at men in general (I have two wonderful ones) and it isn't intended to further inflame the 'battle of the sexes' in any way. I see many terrific relationships between men and women in which both partners are loved and respected equally and it also isn't a dig at personal relationships. It really is a genuine attempt to understand what men, as a sex, want from women in society. And if the men in the group want to ask the same question of us, please feel free to do so.

The Abrahamic religions, for want of a better word, (Jews, Christians and Muslims) see woman (Eve) as a temptress with insatiable lust, tempting men into sin. It seems to me that this is passing the buck - cover up the women and make them invisible so that men can control their lust. And if they can't then the woman is to blame because she is a woman and therefore lustful and unclean.

I went to a course of lectures given by a delightful Islamic woman and during the course she was asked why women are relegated to the back of the mosque.

Her answer was that it was to prevent the sight of the women's bottoms distracting the male worshipers.

My suspicion is that if men can keep their women hidden they can do their own thing, make laws to suit themselves, beat their wives, rape girls and generally carry on without having to face the law - because it is men who make the law. It is about power.

According to The Apocrypha Eve wasn't the first woman created. The first woman was Lilith and she was Adam's equal which didn't please Adam at all and she was banished to be demonised as a succubus (OED - a female demon believed to have sexual intercourse with sleeping men) - probably the cause of nocturnal emissions.

Actually, what that story underscores to me is that women are only valued in society as a commodity.

Does anyone know of any society in which women are actually respected and actively wanted?

There's an interesting (and quite well written) novel by Anne Cameron called Daughters of Copper Woman. It's set in a native American community in the Pacific NorthWest, although I don't know how idealized the community she describes actually is. Somewhat idealized, I'm sure.

But what stood out to me reading it was that rape was unknown. Everyone had their roles in the society, but the concept of a power struggle between the sexes was completely absent.

Women are "wanted"--as objects, to be used and owned. All the problems stem from the crazy idea that they too are people, with exactly the same rights as men.

a native American community in the Pacific NorthWest

I have a Navajo acquaintance who was brought up on a reservation within traditional family structure, which meant matrilinearity and general female overseeing and management. He practically grew up in a parallel world. It's a wonder what disposition of property does for one's status.

I believe Eve is a strictly Christian concept. I don't know why Arab women are hidden and controlled to such an extent but I think it has more to do with culture than religion.

Eve is in the Old Testament and is therefor Jewish. The Muslims are suposedly descended from Ishmael who was one of Abraham's sons by his barren wife's handmaiden. Ishmael and Hagar, his motherr were cast out into the wilderness when Sarah managed to produce a legitimate son, Isaac.

All the "people of the book" accept Eve in one way or another.

You're right, Eve is in the old testament, but only Christianity has Original Sin.

It really is a genuine attempt to understand what men, as a sex, want from women in society.

I don't feel qualified to answer that since I don't think it's a thing all men agree upon.

Is a Darwinian perspective more appropriate? Men and women are programmed by evolution to want the same thing; to maximize their reproductive fitness. (Maybe "want" is the wrong word if you are a deterministic materialist; perhaps "programmed by evolution to behave such that" would be better.) Different cultures have evolved to solve this problem in different ways and we have to take the long view with regard to whether they are successful or not. The culture in India seems to pass this test; it's been around a long time and there are a lot of Indians.

China's one child policy is also creating too many young men who cannot find wives. I think part of the problem goes back to the idea that a daughter was useful only until she wed; she then joined her husband's family and all her work enriched them. A son would always be around to take care of his parents (and inherit their wealth). A daughter would be expensive depending on how much dowry her parents had to pay. It's economics: we have to raise this child, pay someone to take her and then any value she generates goes to another family.

I'm not convinced there is any psychological trait unique to one sex, so let me offer the notion that we have an astonishing capacity to disavow the personhood of others. This is both a breathtaking feat of mental prestidigitation, and a terrifying failure to reckon with reality.

It allows for both genocide and misogyny, while preserving the conscience.

>11 stellarexplorer: It allows for both genocide and misogyny, while preserving the conscience.

Not to mention various forms of slavery.

Does anyone know of any society in which women are actually respected and actively wanted?

Well, there are still some matrilineal/matriarchal-type cultures around. The Naxi and the Mosuo (in China), for instance; some of southern India; etc. The National Geographic article about the Hadza of Tanzania is also fascinating. The Hadza are one of the few remaining (relatively) isolated primitive groups subsisting solely on hunting/gathering, and although labor roles are somewhat separated by gender, their society lacks gender stratification and power imbalance based on gender (as well as on wealth). Interestingly, their society also lacks religion.

Stellarexplorer in post 11 hit it on the nose, I think. As long as women (or any people) are perceived as lesser-than, or non-human, there will be trouble.

As far "not being wanted whatever we do," yeah, it's kind of a lose/lose scenario. If a woman is beautiful and works hard to maintain her beauty, she's shallow and dumb, and not worth listening to. If she's ugly or old, she's not sexually appealing, and not worth listening to. If she's a single mom who works outside the home, she's neglecting her kids and is a bad parent. If she's a single mom who stays home with her kids and receives public assistance, she's a layabout who should get off her lazy ass and get a job. If she sleeps with you, she's a slut. If she won't sleep with you, she's a prude. And so on, and on. Nobody wins this game, and these mindsets harm men as well as women.

Slowly, things are changing, but change takes time.

I have a wife, two daughters and two grandaughters. I also have two sisters and no brothers. I have no sons or grandsons so women play a big part in my life. I have never felt deprived in any way but then I never needed any of them to do hard labour for our family to survive. I may have had a different opinion if I was raised a poor Indian peasant.

#13 Do you really think things are changing? It seems to me that one kind of hatred just takes the place of another. An excellent (though oldish) book on the subject, is Misogynies by Joan Smith. Every now and then I look at the world around me and think things are improving and then I overhear some supposedly innocent comment that makes me despair again. I know both sexes have their difficulties with each other but women's grumbles about men seem to be generally tinged with affection without that real underlying air of loathing that is found in so many of the things men do to women.

And I still find the whole thing hard to reconcile with the individual relationships I see around me that involve real love and respect. In the news report that started me off on this the fathers of stolen daughters seemed to be almost as bereft as the mothers and yet few of them seemed able to relate what had happened to their girls with the failings of their society and attitudes to women in general and I couldn't help wondering if they were really crying because they loved their daughters or because they had lost a possession.

Throughout my life I've gone through every possible feeling towrds men fron hero-worship to dislike and I thought I'd finally settled into accepting that male and female are just two sides of the same coin, in that we all have our struggles yet we're all human under the skin, then I see this kind of thing and I wonder if I've again got it all wrong.

#14 So do you think it's really just about economics, darrow? And, even assuming you're one of the 'good guys' (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) does it bother you that so many other men lead so many women to feel this way?

More evolution that economics. What works proliferates. I am not advocating the attitudes towards women that exist in most of the world. Just being pragmatic.

#17 And your view is welcome. It's a subject whereby we all risk offending each other without even trying but I'm interested to hear what men think too so thanks for your input.

>15 Booksloth: Do you really think things are changing? It seems to me that one kind of hatred just takes the place of another

The depth that misogyny is ingrained in our culture was really brought home to me in the 2008 US Presidential election--at both the primary and in the final months. The rabid and irrational hostility heaped upon Hilary Clinton, Michele Obama and Sarah Palin was staggering. It seemed to come out of nowhere, and had little to do with their actual positions on issues. I was a little shocked.

Years ago I attended a lecture by Andrea Dworkin--one of my personal heroes--where she said something to the effect that every society has its "fatal flaw" which, until confronted and healed, will prevent that society from being just and peaceful-- that in the United States flaw is racism, in Britain, it's class, in India it is caste, in the Middle East, it is religion. But over the planet as a whole? It's misogyny.

I think it will take something catastrophic to change that at a deep level.

There are many mysteries, and more regrets than we are comfortable admitting.

Females have what Males want. Prestige, heirs, and grace perhaps. But the men raised in Seraglio's where women are compelled to provide everything, turn out to be weak and stupid men--the Ottoman Empire and its middle east remnants continue to illustrate this point. When a rich man attracts women with his money, it seems to add to his prestige if he flaunts it--the spectacle of Berlusconi, in a pious Catholic country, seems inexplicable.

Males have what Females want. Prestige, heirs, and security perhaps. The women with the power to get the men they want turn out to be...wonderful, but on their own. Divas and rock stars come to mind -- Lou Salome, Mae West, Marilyn Monroe, Janis Joplin.

We're clearly partners here. Our desires are inextricably interwoven. The nasty exceptions--the bus-ride rapes and brutalities which emerge in conditions of warfare -- are simply not representative of the majority. Significantly, many of the break-downs and brutalities are perpetrated by young unemployed powerless males. This is not an excuse for them, but it is "notice" to us that hormones are in play, and society had better provide outlets for the predictable events which occur in the arc of life.

II have been thinking this over again and again. I still stand by my basic comment in #8: I don't think it's a thing all men agree upon. And to some extent that's even why it's a loose/loose situation for women (but it's only a partial answer).

The truth is, as I see it: there is no such thing as "what men, as a sex, want from women in society". There is no global uniformity in desires and such. Apart from the biological component: it's culturally dependent AND it depends on the individual. In short: you can't "win" globally while you try to conform to the individual.

Speaking for myself: I've always wanted my women (and "daughters" - see http://www.librarything.com/topic/147395#3855274) to be independent, self sufficient, etc. Partners in "crime".

Marxism explains the subjugation of women best. In the case of India, the gendercide can be explained in terms of the pressure from Capitalism to avoid female births (dowry time bomb). Male births are preferred not only because no debt is attached but because they attract a future cash payment. Marxism explains that within Capitalism, the person is merely a commodity: if it has no capital utility then it is a liability. Capitalism removes the self from the person.

And look, I am clumsily (at best) attempting to explain that all of these things boil down to living in a capitalist society. So this is not a case of what men want, but a case of what capital wants. If something attracts a value in capital terms then the pressure of living within the system will make people conform to the will of capital.

I've been mulling this over for several days now and I agree with BarkingMatt in 21. The question is so broad as to be meaningless. I don't really have anything to offer about what men from another country and another culture want about women. I think in our culture, which is becoming the global culture, women are more valued as individuals than in the past and I don't see anything to stop that trend in the future.

>19 southernbooklady:

Years ago I was at a talk by Grace Paley where she said something very similar--though not identical--to what you describe from Dworkin. I wonder which one was saying it first, or if they got it from someone else. Probably the latter.

My personal reaction when I heard this observation was mixed. A part of me was nodding, thinking yes, there's truth to that. While another part of me was very irritated, thinking: you don't know my father. You are judging him unfairly.

My experience leads me to believe that what men want is power - don't we all!

Muslims and Christians have patriarchal religions which aim to keep women "in their place" ie barefoot and pregnant.

I married a man who went to one of the best schools in Western Australia but the culture there is misogynistic to the degree that my daughter refuses to send her son to that school.

I "allowed" myself to become a virtual slave; left to bring up three children and dress myself and the children from what I could scrape from the housekeeping money and presents from my parents. His attitude was "I earn the money and I will decide how to spend it. That was mostly beer and yachts ...

He had power over me because I had no money and my loyalty to my daughters prevented me from leaving.

Power. It happens even in a modern civilised culture - but it is hidden.

Research has shown that the happiest group of people in Western Society is unmarried women, followed by married men.

My experience leads me to believe that what men want is power - don't we all!

I agree. But women learn relatively quickly they are underdogs, meaning that few of us venture out to seek "power" in ways the men do. We are humbled early and often, as soon as we find out, for instance, that we can't walk down a street without attracting crassest verbal attacks (or worse). Then there's the enormity of history (not even all that "historic" in most places), understanding the discrimination women suffered in the past, digging through layers of prejudice and misogyny remaining in culture, in law, in power structures... Everything that's been won is fragile and insecure; I'm not at all convinced that even the most developed societies won't revert to medievalism, and sooner than we think.

Basically--and of course, I know this is a generalisation--I have the impression men feel entitled to things (including women) in a way few women feel entitled to anything. It is possible for men to feel that entitlement in a way it is impossible for women. Except for a few crazies.

This is a man's world, it's as simple as that.