The Globe Message Board

Thanks for creating this group, haftime! It's always good to see a classicist working on Shakespeare. What plays are you focusing on these days?

Although I focused on Donne and Milton for my doctorate, I've always enjoyed working on Shakespeare--especially Timon of Athens, Titus Andronicus, and the Richard II-Henry IV 1+2-Henry V tetralogy. The elusive question of religion in Shakespeare is especially interesting.

Glad you could join, DocterRobert!

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to do any scholarly work on Shakespeare for a few years, but at the time it was Richard III and Titus Andronicus.

I've loved Donne for years, and I've been meaning to put some effort into catching up on my Milton. I'm reading Dante now, and I figure I'll be able to give my best to Milton with Dante under my belt.

That's a good approach. If you're interested in epic literature as a background to reading Milton, I recommend C.S. Lewis' Preface to Paradise Lost. I wonder if, as a classicist, you will agree with his definition of epic (especially on Homer and Virgil).

One more thing . . . I like to think of Titus Andonicus as the "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" of early modern drama. Do you know that it was his most popular play (based on sales of the text)?

One more thing . . . I like to think of Titus Andonicus as the "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" of early modern drama. Do you know that it was his most popular play (based on sales of the text)?

I've actually read at least part of C.S. Lewis' Preface to Paradise Lost, and mean to read the rest. Questions like "what is an epic" and even "what is a classic" are very interesting to me. Indeed, I think the way people wrestle with the questions may be the most interesting part.

whoops, that last comment was from me, i was logged in under someone else's account.

DoctorRobert, I'm going to "steal" your question from the Donne group, because I think it was such an interesting one.

How did the people here first become interested in Shakespeare? Many, I suspect, first read the Bard in school, but what turned people into real fans? An excellent teacher? A particular play?

I think my first exposure was in ninth grade, or around age 14. Though the sonnets and plays (and parts of plays) intrigued me then, I can only say I truly came to love Shakespeare in twelfth grade, around age 17. We were reading Hamlet, and I guess it was just a case of the right play at the right time. I was going through typical teenager issues, as clichéd as that is, and I guess something in the text just clicked with me.

Heyo haftime-
I deleted the Shakespeare Shindig group that I started because it was, in fact, redundant and so here I am. Thanks for the heads up.
Overall, I really don't know WHAT to say about Shakespeare, because his words have such a profound effect on me and my own words just aren't worthy. I will say, though, that his plays make me cry and laugh and a look inward and celebrate outward. I love reading them out loud.
I retired about 5 or 6 years ago and one of the promises I made to myself was to read all of the Bard's works, "from cover to cover." It took me a few months and I finally finished while I was house-sitting for two months during the winter on Monhegan Island, Maine (the house was off the grid - solar/wind power; heat by wood fire; pump water by hand; read by candle or kerosene lamp). In this "perfect" place, I finished Hamlet (with their old Jack Russell terrier licking my feet) one night during a snow storm and the effect of having taken in all of his works was very emotional, indeed.
Anyhow, I'm looking forward to many discussions about the plays and poems, along with historical speculations about the man, himself.
Douglas
"In the end, only kindness matters."

doogiewray/Douglas, I'm jealous of the time you got to spend reading all of Shakespeare-- if only I had that opportunity!

I agree regarding the hope for fine discussions in this group. I'm afraid Shakespeare is outside my academic discipline, so I don't get the chance to chat much about him and his works.

My first experience with Shakespeare was at age 6, at Regent's Park in London. The production was Much Ado about Nothing and I remember portions of it vividly (especially the scene in which Hero's "tomb" receives the apologetic tributes from Claudio). So I firmly believe you are never too young for Shakespeare.

My first experience of Shakespeare was attending Shakespeare in the Park in Dallas, TX with my folks each summer. Unfortunately this did not kindle any kind of inspiration until later in life upon a visit to London where again I saw a performance of Shakespeare's plays. Since that time I have developed a keen interest in Shakespeare and his contribution to the English language.

I love to see that people became interested in Shakespeare by actually seeing the plays performed! I find that if I see a play that I haven't read, I'm inspired to go to the text and read it after the performance.

I sort of wish, sometimes, that I could temporarily forget what I know about a particular play so that I could see it fresh. (I'm working on a doctorate in English, and Shakespeare is pretty much my specialty.) I mean, I saw Pericles a couple of years back, knowing almost nothing about it, and early on I figured out that it was "Apollonius of Tyre" and so knew what was going to happen, anyway!

That said, I'm another person who really got hooked on Shakespeare by seeing him performed -- I was sixteen and had been studying A Midsummer Night's Dream for my school Shakespeare class, and while I was interested and had really been enjoying it, I remember sitting there in the first row and listening to Oberon's speech about the mermaid, and realizing that I was completely and utterly in love and probably always would be. And, well, here I am.

(Later that semester we studied 1 Henry IV in the same class and the course of my career was set when the teacher asked me if I'd read Hotspur in a scene we were looking at. It was a very influential semester.)

Also, since it's such a revealing question, I find, and I always want to know it when I'm meeting people: what's everyone's favorite Shakespeare play? Mine is Richard II, even though it has driven me totally mad and is like to drive me madder yet (it's one of the central texts in my dissertation). I have a very long explanation as to why it's my favorite, but the short version is that Richard displays a lot of my very worst qualities to dizzying extremes, and I find this tremendously compelling (this is a sentence that proves itself, I think).

My favorite is Twelfth Night, a play so flawless that it is almost impossible to stage badly. The worst production I ever saw was still pretty good (I would say I have seen it 7 or 8 times on stage). Does anyone else have a favorite that they feel is particularly hard to mangle onstage? What about favorites that are particularly hard to pull off onstage (the famous example here is Macbeth, which I in fact have only seen performed well once, out of perhaps 6 productions)?

Another favorite of recent years is Measure for Measure. The problematic aspects of it are endlessly interesting. Does anyone have an opinion about whether we are supposed to see Duke Vincentio as a figure of benevolence or of sinister, manipulative surveillance? In either case, are we meant to see him as a God figure? A playwright figure? His "solutions" to all of the plot problems at the play's end are so fascinating.

Also, does anyone have any opinions about some of the recent historical takes (intended for a general rather than an academic audience) on the life and times of Shakespeare, like Will in the World and 1599:A Year in the Life of William Shakespeare? Any favorites or ones to avoid?

I just finished reading 1599: A year in the life of William Shakespeare and really liked it. He has researched what was happening at the time and gives us an insight into how contemporary audiences would have understood Shakespeare's plays.

My first exposure to Shakespeare was at age nine when I got a childrens' series of books when my parents bought the Encyclopedia Britannica. It was the stories of Shakespeare by Charles and Mary Lamb. I fell in love with the characters one after the other as I read each play in story form, but I never read or saw any plays until I was an adult, but the memories of those stories stayed with me. I still have the book and will add it to my library here.

I recently rented from netflix the PBS series on William Shakespeare. It was excellent and focused on the culture of society and religion and how it shaped him as a man and influenced his writing. The religious scism seemed to have had a more profound influence than I have read about in the past. I would highly recommend it as an additional source of information on him as well as his contemporary writers and actors.

Was this Michael Wood's In Search of Shakespeare? It was very good as television, but as scholarship, occasionally dodgy (for instance, the assumption the series made that Shakespeare was Catholic is far from a sure thing, and a lot of the evidence Wood presented is not so cut-and-dried as the series made it look). It's worth watching, because you get to see a lot of really shiny pretty English stuff and also some nifty RSC actors, but take it with a grain of salt!

Yes, it was Michael Wood's series. Thank you for your response. If I remember correctly--and I could be wrong--he presented the evidence as theory and not fact. For example, the interpretation of the queen's records in terms of the verasity of the information given to her by her spys. Also, there was the oddity of the different spellings of his name that he used. Was this a common practice in Elizabethen times? Also, have you heard of the book "Shakespeare by Another Name" by Mark Anderson? He claims Edward De Vere Earl of Oxford was really the man who was Shakespeare. I read about a 200 pages, and some of it just didnt make sense to me, so I didnt finish it. What does the academic community think of such postulations as this? Note: Yes, I did enjoy Wood's on location filming in England.

Greetings all. I am new to this site (and, as a corollary, new to this group) so I thought I would take a shot at responding to some of the questions.
I became hooked on Shakespeare via watching stage and screen performances. I find it fascinating that this method of introduction seems to be pretty universal here on the board. I think that goes a long way towards showing how powerful Shakespeare can be in performance and, perhaps, even points to the possibility that those that try to dig deeply into his works (myself included) need to step back from time to time to see the big picture and the spectacle.
As for plays that always seem to work, I would have to agree with the earlier poster who mentioned Twelfth Night. I have seen four versions and loved every one. I am always particularly fascinated by the way Feste is portrayed. He is the linchpin of the whole work, and his characterization changes the tone/feel of the whole play.
I recently read Will in the World and quite loved it. Stephen Greenblatt visited the University of Alabama (my current purgatory) and I went out and bought a copy of his book almost immediately as summer reading. I thought Greenblatt managed the task (so rarely even attempted by most critics) of cramming a lot of fantastic information within a delightfully readable narrative. His readings of the plays are excellent, if occasionally a bit too strongly based on supposition. This is, in fact, the only minor complaint that I could imagine being leveled at the book. Greenblatt does occasionally stray a bit far afield from the known facts of the matter. Nonetheless, he points out when he is doing so quite well, and his arguments are quite plausible.

Hello, I am also very new to the site and to the group. I am in the early stages of adding my library to the site, but am so excited about this site and this group, I couldn't wait till I finished to jump in. My first experience with Shakespeare was as a young girl watching Zeffirelli's Romeo and Juliet. I had never seen anything like it and was totally enthralled. Later after enduring some of the worst high school films of various productions, I saw a tape of Macbeth starring Philip Anglim and that started a life long obsession with Shakespeare and with that play in particular. I work in the theater and have finally gotten the opportunity to work with a Shakespeare Rep company. I feel so lucky to be involved in such an active learning experience. I'm amazed how many new things I learn, even plays I thought I knew well

On another subject, I have Michael Woods book sitting on my nightstand and Will in the World on my wishlist, but I recently finished Shakespeare A Life by Park Honan and A Year in the Life of William Shakespeare by James Shapiro, which I highly recommend.

Greetings and welcome to you. Unfortunately, this particular message board has been, if not dead, at least in a bit of a coma for a while. Welcome to Library Thing regardless and hopefully this board can be re-energized.
I take it you are loving your work with a Shakespeare Theatre company? Although I do not have a theatrical bone in my body, I find that kind of thing terribly interesting. Unfortunately, those that are interred in academia (and, as I am only in the midst of my PhD work, I am just a child in all this) tend to get so wrapped up our myopic text examination that we lose the holistic view. Shakespeare was intended as fun entertainment to be performed for a paying audience, not as a subject for dry, microanalysis or as a read-only text used to torment a captive audience of underclassmen.

I admit a completely biased point of view, but for the magic of his language only really comes alive when I hear and see it. I have my favorite passages or monologues that I love to read, but nothing beats hearing it performed, performed well that it is. (I've certainly seen Shakespeare butchered more times than I care to remember.) However, I do wish I had a more scholarly background. The more I read and learn about his words and his world, the greater my understanding and enjoyment. And yes I am loving my work with the Montana Shakespeare in the Parks. Montana you say? Yes, believe it or not. They have been performing all over the state for free for decades. Here Shakespeare is living, breathing and immediate. It is an amazing experience. I hope this board can be re energized, I am looking forward to others perspective on the Bard and his work. Thank you for your welcome.

(Oh, why not?!)

One of my favorites - Sonnet 73:

That time of year thou mayst in me behold
When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
In me thou seest the twilight of such day
As after sunset fadeth in the west,
Which by and by black night doth take away,
Death's second self, that seals up all in rest.
In me thou see'st the glowing of such fire
That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
As the death-bed whereon it must expire
Consumed with that which it was nourish'd by.
This thou perceivest, which makes thy love more strong,
To love that well which thou must leave ere long.

(posted by Douglas)

"In the end, only kindness matters."

KimberlyL, performing Shakespeare in Montana is certainly no more odd than studying him in Alabama so I am certainly not the one to throw stones.

The question of Shakespeare in performance versus Shakespeare on the page is a tough one for me. There is a vitality and energy present in performed Shakespeare (or any good theatre for that matter) that cannot be replicated in any other fashion. In addition, the words simply sound fantastic when spoken (why else would every teacher of Shakespeare, including myself, insist on reading large passages aloud in the classroom when the focus is usually on the text rather than the performance). On the other hand, the Elizabethans and Jacobeans were more adept at picking out cunning word play on the fly than us poor moderns, attuned as we are to other types of information processing. Because of this, it is also great fun to just sit down with a text and dig, uncovering the double/triple/quadruple layers to the work.

In the end, I suppose, why choose :-)

I agree with everyone in the "on the stage" vs "on the page" discussion.

I want to add one small, obvious benefit of the "on the page" venue: you can stop and reread any particularly stop-you-dead-in-your-tracks passage.

Why choose? Hmmm .... indeed .... I choose both!

Douglas

"In the end, only kindness matters."

Absolutely, why choose. I will say after reading A Year in the Life of William Shakespeare, 1599 it really made me aware of the social and political influences in his writing and it deepened the meaning of several scenes. I would love some recommendations for books that provide more background on the language and the times of his works. There is such an overwhelming amount of literature out there that it's hard to know what to choose.

Wow, this Globe group should be among the most active! Everyone claims to have one or two volumes of Complete Shakespeaare. I keep checking back and hoping for a lively discussion. I also keep hoping for time to write my thoughts on the plays I'm reading. Maybe we should begin to branch out and start some threads based on the individual plays.

I'd love it if individual play discussions started up. I'll be working on Merry Wives in the summer and Othello in the fall. And last February I got a chance to see Anthony and Cleopatra, Henry VI Part 1 and Richard III, as well as Merry Wives The Musical at the RSC, so all of those plays are buzzing my in head.

MajikMouse, thanks for the Greenblatt recommendation. I'll keep my eye open for it at booksales!

>29 KimberlyL: kimberlyL,Shakespeare by Anthony Burgess is quite good for historical background.

Happy Birthday, Willie!

We still love ya after all these years.

Douglas

"In the end, only kindness matters."

>33 belleyang: belleyang, thank you the recommendation, I just added it to my wishlist, which just never seems to get any shorter.

>34 doogiewray: lol, it took me a few moments to understand to whom you were sending birthday wishes. How very appropriate and what synchronicity.

Hi, Globe members--I don't mean to coopt this group, but I've been waiting impatiently for it to get some sort of horizontal action going instead of marching down in the single columnn of this Message Board. On Shakespeare birthday--as doogiewray kindly pointed out--lets move latitudinally, let's get fatter, shall we? Whatever you may be reading or which ever play may be your favorite, please create a thread.

hello, I'm new to librarything (since Sat. last) and new to this group. I've enjoyed reading the post? There was an excellen 4 part series on PBS called In Search of Shakespeare with Michael Woods. When I watch one of his plays on TV I like to get my complete works and read along. To see what was cut and what was stressed.

>38 gautherbelle: I watched the Michael Woods episodes...was I seeing clearly?...Michael Woods was running his bare fingers (sans gloves) over original manuscripts.

“Nymph, in thy orisons, be all my sins remembered..” During my senior year in high-school (circa 1948), we were let out of school so we could all go to the only movie house, in Vista, California, to see Laurence Olivier’s Hamlet. Apparently, that lit the latent Shakespeare kindling in me which subsequently quite burst into flame. During any idle time in the succeeding years, I memorized whole scenes and acts from Hamlet from the small paperback I always carried with me. As the time spent in the Navy (1951-56) included more than enough idle time, I eventually could begin being able to recite Act III, Scenes 1-3 together with Straker’s Dream (aka Don Juan in Hell) from Shaw’s Man and Superman (Charles Laughton and the First Drama Quartet were in their heyday—1953) and four hours of my midwatch would have expired. Although I did not subsequently pursue Shakespeare nor English literature academically.(my eventual doctrate was in Urban Affairs), I always was on the look-out for classes and/or seminars on Shakespeare. This penchant has continued even today. I have quite a large collection of VHS tapes, DVDs, etc. of plays and other Shakespeareana, which are always being watched and ‘examined’.However, Anthony Hopkins’ Titus only once (Roman Polanski’s Macbeth is about the extent of Shakespeare gore that I can stomach.

When we first took up residence in Arlington, Texas (1975), various friends asked” What the Hell are you doing in Texas? Four free Shakespeare plays a year. Arlington is half-way between Fort Worth (Shakespeare in the Park) and Dallas (Dallas Shakespeare Festival).

As I type, I'm on Monhegan Island which is about ten miles off the coast of Maine. This is my twelfth two-week stay in October. It is very small (abut 60 people year-round), but has a great little library.

Every year, I take out their copy of Wallace Steven's poetry and the complete works of Shakespeare. This year, however, I found on the "Rockwell Kent" shelf (he lived and painted here early in the 20th century ... in fact, he built the house where I am staying) an edition of the complete works of Shakespeare illustrated by Mr. Kent, himself. Since I'm a big fan of Shakespeare and Rockwell Kent, this is like having a Yule present early.

I finished Twelfth Night yesterday (twelfth year, right?) and will start a new play tomorrow (I'm hooked on a William Gaddis novel right now).

Monhegan Island is where I finished my marathon reading of all of Shakespeare's works back in 2001 (started when I retired and finished when I was spending November and December here ... aw, I probably already typed this earlier in this group, right?).

Oh well!

Douglas

"In the end, only kindness matters."

For a unique analysis of some Shakespeare tragedies,
we have a Teaching Company lecture series:
Shakespeare's Tragedies
(24 lectures, 30 minutes/lecture)
Course No. 2752
Taught by Clare R. Kinney
University of Virginia
Ph.D., Yale University

The tragedies that she lectures on: Hamlet; Othello, King Lear; Macbeth; Antony and Cleopatra; has Coriolanus. You might want to eventually check it out. Right now, the price is over $250, however, when it is on sale, the 24-lecture series usally go for around $65.

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=2752&pc=Literature%20an...

Having skimmed the messages here it occurs to me that some of you who have an interest in things Shakespearean might have a broader interest in the European Renaissance and be interested in joining the new group

http://www.librarything.com/groups/renaissanceeurope

Will and Me, by Dominic Dromgoole, is worth reading.

an excellent book by a writer who understands 'Shakespeare's Double Vision.'