Male vs female writers

JimThomson wrote in another thread (http://www.librarything.com/topic/76084#1601471):
"Keep in mind the working definitions of 'Erotica' vs. 'Porn'. 'Erotica' is written by women, and 'Porn' is written by men."

Now I wasn't aware such a working definition existed, and would be interested in any insight about where this definition came from.
But I do have the impression that the erotica/porn genre is mainly a female writer genre, judging by what has been published recently. (Recently used as a broad term here, and published as indicated by what's shown if you search for erotica on Amazon.)

Which leads me to wonder.

Am I the only one who thinks 'erotica' sounds classy and 'porn' sounds shady? Could this be a gender thing? In other words, is erotica written by women for women and porn by men for men?
Wouldn't that imply there's a difference in writing style, chosen subject matter, plot development, etc etc, between male and female writers?
Is there? What is the difference, then?

Any thoughts anyone?

I don't think it's a question of cast-iron definitions for porn and erotica, whether in regard to gender or "classiness". Everybody's "erotica" is somebody's "porn", and as far as literature is concerned, one finds men and women writing either.

I think the real gender divide occurs in visual porn industry, as it does in prostitution. Just as in organised crime (or even "ordinary" business for that matter), there don't seem to be any female capitalists topping the ladders. And the female cannon fodder, as elsewhere, is notoriously disproportionately exploited.

As to the question of gendered writing, I couldn't form an opinion regarding specifically erotica (or porn), but I don't believe any difference occurs spontaneously "in nature", and I'm not sure it exists in literature. No doubt many people put on a style consciously trying to convey a "masculine" or a "feminine" voice, especially if they are writing in genres aimed at a specific sex. But I'm not aware of any style, idea, insight etc. absolutely unreachable to one sex simply because of its sex.

I think men prefer to read porn/erotica , nowadays, written by women. This has changed over time. However I have yet to come across a male that has delved into 50 shades. Men also read (or used to read) porn for its titilation value and nothing more. However I think the reading now has gone out the window when you can be titilated visually so much more easily.

> 3
I would actually have to check if I even have any erotica novel written by a male writer in my library.
There's only one name that comes to mind, and I haven't read that author's work yet. ( Trent Evans is male I believe and has a novel out on the subject of spanking / a practice called domestic discipline. Another novel with this subject matter written by a female writer I didn't like much btw.)

As to male readers of 'the books that shall not be named', I've come across one or two, that actually finished them as well, but I agree, there aren't many, and the books seemed to be aimed primarily at the female public. Have you tried these novels? What did you think, was the voice female, did it influence your enjoyment?

I certainly don't have to check: Marco Vassi, John Colleton, Pierre Louys, and Aubrey Beardsley, off the top of my head. There are certainly more male authors of erotica in my library.

> 5

LOL, so me being female with mostly female writers in my library, and if you're male with mostly male writers in your library, that would confirm the stereotype of women writing for women and men for men, right?

> 6

No, I just meant more male authors than I had listed in #5. I think the male/female author ratio in my erotica collection probably approaches 1:1 -- if you eliminate the graphic novels, where it's lopsided in favor of men.

> 7
Point taken. :D

In my Erotica tag I have 11 women 12 Men..... lots of Anonymous. In my Victorian Erotica no women; 4 men also lots of Anonymous. In my Erotic Pulp 5 women 17 men

> 9
That seems pretty balanced, I guess? Just curious, did you notice any differences in writing style, chosen subject matter, plot development, etc etc, between male and female writers?

> 1 Am I the only one who thinks 'erotica' sounds classy and 'porn' sounds shady?

I can't imagine so. Eros is not only Greek for "love," but the name of a god.

Porn is from a root meaning "prostitution."

If JimThomson's gender dichotomy is accurate, that could indicate that women lust for gods, and men for whores.

Forgive me, but can I ask on what basis we deduce that using a female nom-de-plume indicates a female author? Having introduced the concept, I will add the question - Are there any authors of erotica who us their real name?

The only answer I can give with any certainty to my first question relate to the married couple Aishling Morgan and Penny Birch. As well as probably being noms-de-plume themselves, I am informed that both write also under other names!

>12 CliffordDorset:
Good question. I think we really haven't the foggiest notion, except to go by the author's own declaration, and of course, they might be lying. *shocking!*

Interesting topic, and one I've pondered often myself. Full disclosure: I'm male. The erotica in my library is far and away predominately female authors. I do find a stylistic difference between male and female authors. Speaking VERY generically (of course!), the male authors I've read have a more "coarse" prose and less in the aspects of plot and character development. As a very simple illustration, there's a series of short story collections published under the title "Flip Side: Both Sides Of The Story". Each story in the collection is written twice, once from the female perspective and once from the male. In most all instances, the authors are of the gender they are writing as.

One other note in the full disclosure category...I have read all 3 of the 50 Shades. I agree with the vast majority of opinions here that the novels are mediocre at best. However, I must admit I probably would not have finished them had they been written from the male's perspective. As an interesting personal observation, I found the storyline somewhat interesting as written, but I'm somewhat certain I would have found it borderline degrading and exploitative if written from the male point of view.

It's probably better to ascribe the POV in the 50 shades to the one woman who wrote it, rather than call it a "female POV" generally.

Incidentally, I have yet to see a single positive review of that book from any woman with a BDSM lifestyle.

(I haven't read it, but I laughed myself to tears at some excerpts posted on LT.)

Porn is a term used to disparage works of erotica that the commenter or reviewer doesn't like.

As an avid reader of SM Erotica/Porn and male, I would say that there is a definite difference between stories written by men and women. (Generalisation alert) A lot of erotica written by men has obtaining sex as the sole objective. Often the MC has no interest in the woman or women as people other than her physical attractiveness. This does not imply lack of plot or characterisation.

For instance, few women would write a novel based around a complex plot to hijack a chartered aircraft bearing a load of beauty contestants for the purpose of having sex with them and then ransoming them back to their families and selling the resultant sex videos on the dark net. And no, none of the kidnappers falls for the innocent beauty of a contestant and helps her escape. In fact, I could see blowing up the plane in mid air after the ransom is paid. Naturally, there would be detailed and explicit sex scenes throughout.

By the way, that example just came off the top of my head.

Also, female written erotica in general tends to lack sufficient physical sexual detail to appeal to many men. This of course is another generalisation. For example, several of Aran Ashe's novels I find very good and sufficiently explicit, especially "Finding Lovers for Justine". This is not simply the sign of a crude animalistic male sexuality but the stronger visual element inherent in human male sexual desire. We need to "see" what is happening, even if just in words, rather than focus on how it makes us feel emotionally.

As for the lack of published male written erotica/porn, have a look at the A1adultebooks site. Olympia press is also re-publishing a lot of their classic (male written) erotic books too. The old Liverpool Library Press books are widely distributed on torrent. "My Secret Life" is still available for free on the Internet.

The lack of a distinctly male kind of erotica in the bookshops is mainly due to the disapproval of the authorities and feminist groups, the refusal of publishers to handle such books because of possible negative legal and social pressures, and the refusal of major book outlets, both paper and electronic to sell said books because of the same pressure. If even Playboy and Penthouse face daily pressure to have them removed from bookshelves, what chance does a book like "Chain and Ball" by Herbet Del Torro, or the works of F.E Campbell, Argus, Richard Manton, or Mullin Garr stand.

Your example shows you aren't talking about some "male" POV, you are talking about sadism.

And I don't for a moment believe that the bookshops are out of material featuring extensive peri- and post-coital degradation and torture of women, crowned by killing them off. For one thing, Sade is in print and represented by perfectly respectable mainstream publishers.

Of course, his writings are short on planes and rather long on political rants. But, you know. Point made.

Perhaps you need to branch out of erotica. Good old noir, for instance, is chock-full of no-nonsense fucking, then killing of women. Skimps a bit on the visual detail, but only of sex. Jim Thompson gives a zesty description of a freshly fucked woman dying on a kitchen floor after being stabbed in the stomach, every twitch and comical gurgle lovingly recorded.

And if visual detail is king, why bother with reading at all? Behold the interwebs and their unending gutters, strewn with female bodies. Rare, medium, and very, very, very well done.

>17 LolaWalser:

I'm not sure that's totally fair. Rape fantasy is real for both men and women as fantasy, not as a literal desire. Erotica is about fantasy (really, don't try this at home), and fantasies sometimes contain elements of coercion and violence.

As one who walks the kinky side of the street, I read and find arousing lots of things that I would never like to actually experience (and a few things that I like and other people would find unpleasant).

I do think, however, that the lack of "male" erotica is exactly because men are so visual. They will choose magazines with photos and videos over erotic words nearly every time. In addition, I'd say female erotica is rather like female sex - for most of us it takes a little more time and effort to achieve fulfillment than it does for men. We like a good story with a lot of sex. Men like a lot of sex with pictures and perhaps a little bit of story.

Please note that generalizations are just that and not meant to apply to any individual - men and women vary so much that any line graph has to be a circle.

#18

I've actually made no assumptions about Bryan--he volunteered a sample fantasy of his, which clearly isn't only about sex but needs to have the women abused and exploited, even economically, and then blown up. I suggested where he could find more of that, definitely not--as anyone with minimal reading comprehension might have known--invited him to go out and act it out.

You, on the other hand, make lots of unwarranted assumptions about me, such as that I need you lecturing me on the difference between fantasy and actual desire. As it happens, I have not that long ago discussed at some length precisely that, in Pro and Con group, as (probably) the most vocal defender of pornography in that thread. But never mind that--nothing I have written in THIS group or this thread gives you any reason to think I might be in need of that trivial insight.

So, I'm thinking it was just a clumsy try to score cheaply off me. Do not try again.

And now back to "male erotica", of which, we are told, there is a "lack".

As I've already hinted above, Bryan's idea of what is "male erotica", which means women pounded into submission, sex and then death, is not necessarily "male", but is rather specifically sadistic. So, let's be honest first and call it that. And then let's discuss how many men actually indulge in such sex/murder fantasies, get off precisely on the idea that they will annihilate the (fantasy) sex partner, or object. I don't have any numbers, but based on what I've read, I think it is a minority.

In trying to nail down some stylistic differences between "male" and "female" erotica, Bryan mentions visual detail, but also implies that women always entangle some "romantic" strand.

As a criterion of gender distinction this absolutely stinks. The great mass of erotic literature (or pornography if you like), authored by men, is historically quite remarkable by its LACK of visual detail, of description. It's pretty much "wham, bang, thank you ma'am", from Aretino through Henry Miller.

But it would be a bit much to suggest that old porn was written by men who somehow weren't "male". No, that too is "male erotica", the coy and flowery verbiage of "La Rose d'amour", the "dyings away" of the Victorians, the actually pretty solid "family values" of "The Romance of lust", and the sewing machine tedium of "My secret life".

LolaWalser:

First of all, the argument about male propensity. Most of what I said referred to descriptions of the mechanics of the sexual act as well as the appearance of the women. What I said is that we (men) have a stronger need to "see/visualise" the action. I am not the only one to think that men and women respond to different sexual stimuli. As a group who have a financial interest in being right on the matter, Ellora's Cave for Men describes their male oriented line thusly -

"Great stories and hot sex the way men like it, with less emphasis on emotional attachment and more on sexual adventure. In EC for Men stories, men’s needs, desires and fantasies take center stage."

Next, your assumption that the deaths in my example are related to the sexual element. Killing women does not turn me on. Neither does bondage, by the way. It is apparent that you have not read many of the "free" male written stories/fantasies on the web, since you did not recognise the well worn trope of the kidnapping of a bus/plane/ship load of beauty queens/cheerleaders etc for sexual purposes. The ransom and killing of the witnesses relate to the plot mechanics of the story, and will be found in almost every crime procedural that involves mass kidnapping, including that Sandra Bullock vehicle, "Speed". (Bomb, vehicle, women and children, anybody?)

It seems to me that your intense focus on death and visually disgusting killings in relation to sex speaks more of your own inner demons than mine.

I have read deSade, and as one of the first open proponents of sexual sadism, he is something of a hero to me. However, he was more of a philosopher and politician than pornographer. His works were shocking, but they were meant to. The latest research shows that it was likely he was innocent of the the most excessive and violent accusations made against him. He was also one of the few public figures who openly opposed the guillotine happy leaders of the French Revolution.

As for you comment in a later post regarding the lack of visual detail in the "classics" -

"My Secret Life":

Mary-Ann by the side of her, a year younger only, laid on her back, naked up to her navel, just above which was her night-gown in a heap and ruck; she had scarcely a sign of hair on her cunt, but a vermillion line, lay right through her crack. Projecting more towards the top, where her cunt began, she had what I now know was a strongly developed clitoris; she was a lovely girl and had long chestnut hair.

"A Man And A Maid":

During the ten minutes' grace that I mentally allowed Alice in which to recover from the violence of her struggles, I quietly studied her as she stood helpless, almost supporting herself by resting her weight on her wrist. She was to me an exhilarating spectacle, her bosom fluttering, rising and falling as she caught her breath, her cheeks still flushing, her large hat somewhere disarranged, while her dainty well-fitting dress displayed her neatly 'crummy' figure to its fullest advantage.

She regained command of herself wonderfully quickly, and then it was evident that she was stealthily watching me in horrible apprehension. I did not leave her long in suspense, but after going slowly round her and inspecting her, I placed a chair right in front of her, so close to her its edge almost touched her knees, then slipped myself into it, keeping my legs apart, so that she stood between them, the front of her dress pressing against the fly of my trousers. Her head was now above mine, so that I could peer directly into her downcast face.

"Fanny Hill":

All my back parts, naked half way up, were now fully at
his mercy: and first, he stood at a convenient distance, de-
lighting himself with a gloating survey of the attitude I lay
in, and of all the secret stores I thus expos'd to him in
fair display. Then, springing eagerly towards me, he cover'd
all those naked parts with a fond profusion of kisses; and
now, taking hold of the rod, rather wanton'd with me, in gen-
tle inflictions on those tender trembling masses of my flesh
behind, than in any way hurt them, till by degrees, he began
to tingle them with smarter lashes, so as to provoke a red
colour into them, which I knew, as well by the flagrant glow
I felt there, as by his telling me, they now emulated the
native roses of my other cheeks.

And in a more modern vein-

"Tease Em With Ease" Bee Line publication (1970's I think):

Helen leaned forward to stir her coffee and Neil unwillingly found himself drinking in the full beauty of her two bulbous breasts. Wow! He knew they were big, but as she leaned and the flimsy top hung away from them he could see the nipples and everything. Neil finally realized that breasts never looked as big as they do when they're naked.

And white. Pure white skin stretched in round, plump mounds with pink nipples on each end. Circular, fleshy, pulpy nipples with little tits on each end. Like two doorbells, two upside-down suction cups, two strawberries on mounds of creamy vanilla ice cream. That did it. Neil's cock attained full erection. It was impossible not to. All he could think about was adding his nuts and banana to her sundae breasts to make a banana split.

Then Helen sat back and fully realized what she was doing to the youthful man across from her. He could feel her eyes as they scoured his firm, well-muscled body, covered the golden tan and finally settled on the high-powered, fully stretched staff of flexed meat in his swimsuit.

"The Rider" Mullin Garr, Liverpool Library Press (1980):

Then it was my turn to stare. The fading light showed me a robust shapely body, white skinned and smooth, with heavy breasts that were firm and full and tipped with nipples that already stood in lusty erection. Her big mound was covered with a broad diamond-shaped thatch of auburn hair that pointed towards her deep navel, and as my gaze lingered on it she drew up her feet and slowly spread her shaking thighs.

(The above is a Western, by the way. Oh no! Guns, violence, female innards strewn all over the floor! Um, no. Lots of lusty sex though, including a great female public masturbation scene.)

I don't know about you, but when I read, I literally "see" the action in my mind much like a film or video. If that doesn't happen for you then it only goes to strengthen my argument that men are (often) more focused upon the visual and tactile elements of the sexual experience.

I have read deSade, and as one of the first open proponents of sexual sadism, he is something of a hero to me.

Flies a bit in the face of your assertion that torturing and killing women isn't your (fantasy, of course) "thing".

You emphasised that not only is a lack of emotional attachment essential to your enjoyment (which, by the way, isn't uncommon for female readers of porn either--these days, people who want sex AND emotional attachment read romance), but made the point of adding financial to sexual exploitation, finished off by a massacre. If this isn't the sort of thing you are looking for, then why do you offer it as an example?

What I said is that we (men) have a stronger need to "see/visualise" the action.

In which case consider Helcura's argument--perhaps you are noticing a lack of your sort of thing in print because there's so much of it in other visual media. It seems men buy fewer books and read less than women do in general. I don't see why erotica should be different.

Not that I believe for a minute we are ever going to run out of stuff catering to "men’s needs, desires and fantasies".

Your quotations prove my case. Compare your Victorian examples to your 1970's one. The older ones are mostly interesting in showing how LITTLE visual detail and specificity you apparently need. Mary-Ann has a hairless cunt with a vermillion crack, a large clitoris, and, "she was a lovely girl and had long chestnut hair." That's it? That's what you'd call a vivid description?

Fanny Hill is by some measures the best written piece of Victorian erotica, but because it was the original to so many imitations, its periphrastic, euphemistic style is the one I can stand the least. It's also terribly repetitive, but that might be seen as almost a genre trademark.

Which ties into another of erotica's eternal plagues: the clichés, always the infernal clichés. A shapely body that is white skinned and smooth, heavy breasts that are full and firm and tipped with lusty nipples--this is not evocative writing in my book.

I don't know about you, but when I read, I literally "see" the action in my mind much like a film or video. If that doesn't happen for you

No, that's exactly what happens for me. But I like specific details and scenarios, things that make me "believe" it is happening.

>19 LolaWalser:

I'm going to assume you were having a bad day when you wrote that.

I don't ever try to "score" off of anyone. I occasionally share my thoughts on these threads, and I lurk a lot. Your response in #19 is why I lurk a lot.

Up until now, I've always been impressed by your thoughtful responses and sensible viewpoint. I expect I will be impressed again at some point.

I will however, leave this particular discussion to you henceforth.

Oh dear! Some really interesting points have been made in the sequence of posts that began with Bryan_Romer in #16, and it is such a shame that the discussion has turned so adversarial. The topic itself does excite the emotions, but we have to keep in focus the clear fact that literary preferences are as highly individual as the sexual preferences to which they relate. This is of major importance in discussions, and I don't think that any of (at least) the post-16 correspondents would disagree.

It is very difficult to separate personal preferences from normal, rational debate, and I feel that this thread has been somewhat immoderate in this respect. Each of us also has individual styles of debating, and I feel that style has occasionally been unhelpfully bound up with both content and intent at times.

It is certainly interesting to extend the original subject of different writing styles of male and female writers, to the differences in arousal that those styles and the authors' topics cause in us as individuals. Please can we avoid making deductions about fellow debaters. I might question why a contributor shows so few erotic works appear in her/his LT listings, but I refrain from doing so, because it's not germane.

{Incidentally, I should correct the impression that Fanny Hill is Victorian. It was first published in 1748. Surprising, but true.}

#22

You are right, I was having a bad day, which is generally not improved when it seems I'm being taken for an idiot. I apologise for my rudeness.

#23

Incidentally, I should correct the impression that Fanny Hill is Victorian. It was first published in 1748. Surprising, but true.}

Absolutely, thanks for the correction, although the point I was making about the difference in style wasn't relying on precise chronological periods.

So, Clifford, what is your impression of the general difference between "old" and "new" pornography?

Again, if you had read what I wrote, de Sade is my hero because of his courage in standing up against what he saw as the evils and hypocrisy of his day, as well as fighting against censorship in the face of lifelong imprisonment. He was never even accused of killing anyone, male or female, except in the field of battle. His books were extreme because they were meant to shock and to promote discussion and analysis, which they have successfully done to this very day.

If it is the entire genre of BDSM that offends you, then there are a great many men and women all over the world who would be happy to take exception to your point of view and who enjoy such fiction without also being fans of axe murderers.

You comment regarding my original plot example makes me wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse. I offered a sexual scenario (criminals have non-consensual sex with kidnapped women), along with a very brief plot outline for the overall story which, as I have already pointed out, is similar to "mainstream" and non-erotic "action" films such as "Speed". Are you suggesting that erotica needs no plot and should simply be a non-stop description of tab A into slot B action and that I should not have bothered with that part?

Regarding the supposed brevity my extracts, that was because they were exactly that, extracts, selected to demonstrate as concisely as possible that explicit visual/physical details did in fact exist in the aforementioned "classics". If the specificity and detail of the quoted examples are insufficiently detailed for your tastes, perhaps you would like to offer an example of the level of detail that you consider suitable and admirable. Remember we are talking about physical and visual detail, not emotional responses.

As for the use of clichéd descriptions, there might be a reason for that. Most men like bodies that are "white skinned and smooth" (assuming that we are not talking about darked skinned races), and again, you might like to provide some superior alternatives that would serve better and still appeal to the male taste. In general most "popular" male erotica is on a level with police procedurals, action/adventure stories, and westerns. Excessively poetic or even "evocative" description is rarely seen as a good thing in any of these genres.

" But I like specific details and scenarios, things that make me "believe" it is happening." Once more, kindly demonstrate this marvelous type and level of detail with an example.

You introduce "scenarios" into the discussion. All of the books discussed have their own "scenarios", many described in exhaustive detail. Perhaps what you refer to is the description of the emotional "relationships" between the protagonists? The "why would this woman choose to have sex with this particular man/woman" scenario? The sort of thing that most men have absolutely no interest in reading about in the context of erotica? If I am wrong in my assumption, then example of a believable "scenario" please.

if you had read what I wrote

You wrote:

I have read deSade, and as one of the first open proponents of sexual sadism, he is something of a hero to me.

Perhaps you need take more care when expressing your thoughts, if you keep writing things you don't mean.

As for Sade, yes, thanks, let's skip those lectures too, I know something about him.

If it is the entire genre of BDSM that offends you,

When did we talk about BDSM and what did I say about anything, let alone BDSM, "offending" me?! This is where you begin to invent, Bryan, and there's seriously no need for that, there's plenty of argument to go around and I'm quite willing to share my opinions. No need for you to make them up for me.

I offered a sexual scenario (criminals have non-consensual sex with kidnapped women)

You offered this scenario--and let's not forget, you added economic exploitation and murder to rape--as an example of "male" erotica. You didn't say "some men"; the implication of "male" here is that it applies to all or most men. I simply questioned, and continue to question, the idea that this type of fantasy appeals to most men and is therefore generalizable to "male erotica". I call that a specifically sadistic fantasy, and sadists of any gender are in a minority compared to non-sadists.

Rape fantasies may be common, and domination fantasies even more so, but introduction of annihilation of the sexual object turns these into something else, and rather more rare.

explicit visual/physical details did in fact exist in the aforementioned "classics".

I never claimed it didn't, I'm merely saying that there's a difference of degree. I notice you have nothing to say about the differences evident in your own examples.

Excessively poetic or even "evocative" description is rarely seen as a good thing in any of these genres.

I said nothing about "poetic". As for "evocative", a single word or phrase can be more evocative, more electrifying, than paragraphs filled with "large, heavy breasts", "shapely forms" and "lovely girls".

Yes, I could give examples of my own, but I'm not sure such cherry-picking is very useful. But it was at least interesting to see what you think is emblematic of "male" taste, so I might give a few in return. (My books are in a holy mess. I'll have to see what is at hand.)

Perhaps what you refer to is the description of the emotional "relationships" between the protagonists?...If I am wrong in my assumption, then example of a believable "scenario" please.

Yes, this is all nonsense questions and assumptions with no warrant in anything I've said. Addressing everything would take us even further away, so, to keep it simple--I am talking about porn, not romance. No "emotional" attachment is to be assumed in discussion of pornographic fantasies (technically, lust is an emotion and creates psychological bonds too--but let's not get too intelligent.)

Getting back to where the discussion started, do you have anything to say about the idea that books are perhaps superseded, where men are concerned, when all this visual porn is available? That, iow, your perceived "lack" of male erotica in bookshops may be due to a lack of demand, rather than due to active suppression by the feminists?

So, no examples. That speaks for itself.

As for books being superseded by video, that does not explain the very active torrent and other sharing of out of publication books from the 70's and 80's. Publishers like A1Adultebooks and others do sell very different kinds "erotica" from those found in the major bookshops or Amazon, much of which these "mainstream" outlets will not accept or handle.

And just to demonstrate that it is not all just my opinion, here are *extracts* from an interview with two erotic bloggers from the site "The Erotic Writer".

Q: What do you think distinguishes erotica written for men from erotica written for women?

Will Crimson:

I would say that erotica written for men will focus more on the physical act of sex rather than the emotional content. A man doesn’t necessarily want to know how the slave girl feels when she’s being fucked. He wants writing that will evoke his pornographic imagination. What position is the slave girl in? What kinds of sounds does she make? What does she do when she orgasms? Does she scream? Cry? Pant? Shake? Stretch? Arch? Madly kiss the man fucking her? Men, I think, are much more visually oriented than women. One can quickly see this by what kinds of erotica are being written and read by men on sites like SOL or ASSTR. There’s little if any interest in the emotional content or consequence of sex. The stories are simply loud and orgiastic descriptions of fucking. The stories are meant to evoke the pornography of sex. The women in these stories are simply the vehicle of the expression of male sexual desire and nothing more.

Raziel Moore:

Much, and perhaps most erotica written for men today doesn’t have a great deal of respect for men’s intellect and complexity, and assumes that most men are looking for a good stroke story that twig’s their personal kinks hard and fast. Thinking of that, I started answering this with a listing of what I think most “men’s erotica” lacks in trying to cater to its intended audience. But that’s not as useful as trying to examine what the best of these kinds of stories does, so I’m going to try that, and distinguish, perhaps arbitrarily, erotica vs written porn for the male reader.

Erotica ‘for men’ makes the attempt to engage us beyond simple stimulation. These stories, perspectives, and situations help us understand and experience by proxy the flavors of male desire, appreciation, and conflict in and around sex. Men’s headspace is no less complex than women’s, and the negotiation between a man’s desire and actions are not always easy, or linear, and do not always have predictable results. I think erotica for men, at its best can show the reader (male or female), not “what men want” but what different men _think_ about want; stories that are not so much what men do, but what drives a men to act certain ways. The best of men’s erotica can show how men churn over their thoughts and desires and translate them into words and actions, and how those all impact them and those around them. Erotica for men, even if it’s not written by a man, or from a male POV, centers around the male identity in the erotic state.

Not that that discounts the physical. The male sexual experience is different from the female, and the masculine sensory lexicon and engagement with physicality is different. I think the best writing shows that as well, and can communicate the male experience even too those without the same equipment and different drives.

Q: Do you think the easy availability of visual pornography helps or hinders in the number of male erotica readers?

Will Crimson:

I don’t think it matters. If porn weren’t available, then there would certainly be a broader market for erotica; but “visual erotica” has always been available in one form or another. On a recent Radiolab (NPR), archaeologists were discussing a 10,000 year old trash dump (a mound that was, itself, a site with 10,000 years worth of garbage). Buried in that mound were thousands of sheaves of ancient paper. Some were, predictably, religious: Sayings of Jesus. Interestingly, they also found long lost erotic literature — something, annoyingly, few articles comment on.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0425_050425_papyrus_2.html

However, whatever this piece of erotic fiction was, it was the most popular work of literature in the dump.You can hear about it here:

http://nhpr.org/programs/radiolab

It’s exactly 17 Minutes into the story. The erotica begins:

“Oh, I’m terribly on fire. Uh oh, it’s thick and big as a roof beam. I’m burning, I’m on fire. I’m terribly on fire. A stream runs over me, do you understand?”

That’s erotica, possibly by a woman, loving the same things that we love today, thousands of years ago — a big, thick cock. Isn’t that cool? Human beings *love* their erotic lives. Hopefully, we’ll get to read more of this erotica from ancient Egypt and Greece.

Back to your question: No. I think that male readers who are interested in erotica, will read it. It’s another kind of fetish, in a way, and those men who like it, will find it. Those who are more visually oriented, will always be so and find a way to express that, whether through sculpture, paintings or otherwise.

Anyway, since you refuse to back up your words with evidence, there is little point in continuing this little discussion and I leave you to your delusions.

It isn't nice to dump chunks of text and links and flee. One might think you are incapable of defending your arguments in your own words. Either have a conversation or piss off taking your links with you, can't have both.

So, no examples. That speaks for itself.

Very, very unkind, when I have made clear I'm willing to give examples of my own. I'm in a rush to go out for lunch, but will be back later in the afternoon. Let's begin with these:

Cleo teases Valerie by pulling down her underpants very slowly. Pubic hair first. Then more of the mound. Curled blonde hair. And finally the split between the plump blonde lips as she lifts one leg to get the panties free. "Want to look?" Cleo says. Laughing, she comes to the bed, puts one foot on the edge and swings her knee wide to show everything, the pink flower open, pink flaps like wattles. She pulls at her cunt with her fingers to make her clit stick out. Odd Women, Rachel Perez

Visual detail in "female" erotica, check!

...I began to have fantasies of zipless fucks with doormen, derelicts, countermen at the West End Bar, graduate students--even (God help me!) professors. I would sit in my 'Proseminar in Eighteenth-Century English Lit.' listening to some creepy graduate student drone on and on about Nahum Tate's revisions of Shakespeare's plays, and meanwhile I would imagine myself sucking off each male member (hah) of the class. Fear of flying, Erica Jong

Propensity to sexual fantasies WITHOUT "emotional attachment" in female characters, check!

See how easy this sort of thing is? Perhaps a bit too easy for thinking it's proving or disproving anything.

Still, coming next: more of the above, plus "poetry" and "emotional attachment" in "male" erotica, by the tons.

So.

"Poetry" and "emotional attachment" in male porn--one need look no further than Bryan's own example of Fanny Hill. The fancy style is obvious; as for emotions, Fanny ends up married to her original seducer, after inheriting the wealth of a client who fell in love with her.

In Romance of lust, our hero Charlie, a prodigiously well-hung teenager, fucks (more or less in this order, though I might have missed a few) his mother's friend, his two younger sisters, two governesses/teachers, his aunt and uncle, another older woman who takes him under her wing after his own mother had died and whom he addresses as "Mama", her son, niece, and then it escalates as he attains maturity and heads out into the world. Charlie and the other characters in this work are remarkable not only for their physical stamina and infinite enthusiasm for sex of all kinds with anyone, but also for their sheer jollity and affection. Everyone's a dear and a darling:

"Oh! what is it, my dear Charlie, everything you do is so nice, I know I shall like it--what is it?"
"Then you must know, dear Eliza, that this little cunt of yours is made for the express purpose of having a prick put into it; only, as mine is so large, and you are still so small and so young, I was afraid it would give you too much pain to do it sooner; but now, I think, I may get it in, if I do it gently."

Pish! that's so sweet and gentle, must be a girl wrote it. Real men only dream of kidnapping, raping and murdering busloads of cheerleaders and the like, it is known.

The Romance of Lust is free online:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/30254

so I won't bother with more examples from it.

Gay men have a reputation for being the kings of "unemotional" sex. Relentless fuckbunnies they are, totalling vertiginous numbers of sexual partners, sometimes registering nothing more than the genitals.

'I love you!' he whispered, 'I love you madly! I cannot live without you any longer.
'Nor can I,' said I faintly; 'I have struggled against my passion in vain, and now I yield to it, not tamely, but eagerly, gladly. I am yours, Teleny! Happy to be yours, your for ever and yours alone!'
For all answer there was a stifled hoarse cry from his innermost breast; his eyes were lighted up with a flash of fire; his craving amounted to rage; it was that of a wild beast seizing his prey; that of the lonely male finding at last a male. Still his intense eagerness was more than that; it was also a soul issuing forth to meet another soul. It was a longing of the senses, and a mad intoxication of the brain. Could this burning, unquenchable fire that consumed our bodies be called lust? {etc. etc. etc}

Unbearable, all that emotion and PROCESSING and... well, there are some stiff phalluses rubbing against each other and so on further down that page, google the book, it is Teleny, or the reverse of the medal, probably mis-attributed to Oscar Wilde.

To sum up, insisting that there's a "male" and "female" style in writing erotica such that one can find in any piece written by a man or a woman, is bollocks, because one can always find specific examples to buttress OR explode any generalization.

But this wasn't a question I addressed anyway (as I wouldn't, because I think the premise nonsensical).

MY question was, and is, in simple terms: of all the men (let's be conservative and say "millions") who start or end or punctuate their day by giving themselves a private little party, what proportion does so while fantasizing about raping and then killing their object of desire?

All of them? Most? Some sizeable minority? A few?

Unless it's more than half, that sort of fantasy isn't representative of the majority. If it isn't representative of the majority, then I don't see why anyone, aficionado or not, would expect--as a matter of course--to find it in "bookshops" (which, by the way, are themselves becoming rare and from what I've seen, tend to stock more mainstream stuff).

The bookshops I go to, by the way, don't have an "erotica" section at all. None of them, of any kind. You can find Pauline Réage in fiction under "R" and "The Pearl" in the "Anonymous" section, but the point is, if you're looking for porn, you're looking in the wrong place. If I wanted to browse print porn, I'd go to a sex shop, the one gay bookstore I'm still aware of, or I'd shop online.

Have feminists ruined "male erotica"? You tell me--with data to back it up this time, please.

For my part, as a feminist, I want this to go on record: I defend Bryan's right to whack off to fantasies of raping and killing women.

I think LolaWalser has put her finger on it (Just how much of human communication DOESN'T have an alternative 'entendre'?) when she says,

'To sum up, insisting that there's a "male" and "female" style in writing erotica such that one can find in any piece written by a man or a woman, is bollocks, because one can always find specific examples to buttress OR explode any generalization'.

So essentially the original question was meaningless. However, the superb interactions that it elicited - every one of which had a validity in its own way, I think - have provided insights into the deeper question of how men and women respond to the written word. Unfortunately, in the same way that sex itself is highly individual, each of us has a different approach to analysing this difference, as well as a different response to the written views of others, with all the imperfections that result from style, experience, sexual preference and indeed the nuances of language.

I bow to LolaWalser's breadth of knowledge and her command of the mental processes involved in communicating her analyses. Not to belittle the contributions of others, I feel that she has set out the analytical matrix for each of us to examine their own subjectivities.

It would be good to dump the original question and to formulate another one which might lead to a better bias towards agreement.

Since LolaWalser introduced 'Teleny', perhaps I could add that the Dictionary of Erotic Literature of Gaetan Brulotte and John Phillips gives a quite convincing attribution of this work (agreed not to be by Oscar Wilde) to Catherine Robbe-Grillet (wife of the better known Alain). Since it seems that the misattribution has fooled many people for so long, perhaps we need no further indication of the meaninglessness of the original question.

I'm sure you're being too complimentary to my slapdash polemic, Clifford, but thanks!

the Dictionary of Erotic Literature of Gaetan Brulotte and John Phillips gives a quite convincing attribution of this work (agreed not to be by Oscar Wilde) to Catherine Robbe-Grillet (wife of the better known Alain).

That is very interesting; for one thing, everyone seemed convinced it was at least of Wilde's vintage (which I don't think is possible for Robbe-Grillet's wife, unless she was old enough to be his grandmother). So, would the original be in French? I don't have that Dictionary, can you tell us whether they mention any proof in the guise of a manuscript, or similar? Letters etc.? I know Pauvert includes Teleny in his Anthology but don't recall any mention of that possibility...

Since it seems that the misattribution has fooled many people for so long, perhaps we need no further indication of the meaninglessness of the original question.

Well, there's that old school of thought "explaining" gay men as failed women--so why not vice versa... ;)

I'm still not clear on what exactly are "male" and "female" erotica and what exactly their distinctive features are supposed to be. Defining them by the writer's gender is simple enough but it doesn't seem possible that "male erotica" could be something exciting only to men.

Until relatively recently, all or most porn was written by men--but not infrequently consumed by women too. (Especially in the period when that literature was produced for the upper class exclusively. I am currently filling in the library of Marquis de Sade, here; note that he shares Crébillon's naughty novels, Richardson, Boyer d'Argens etc. with Marie Antoinette.)

Is similarly defined "female erotica" exciting only to women? I've a male friend (straight) whose only porn fare is lesbian erotica. I've a gay male friend who's mad about some Harlequin imprint--one of those with explicit sex scenes. (I admit I can't quite wrap my head around that preference. I asked him about that, he just finds it hot. Not remotely bi or anything, very much gay all his life, for whatever quirk finds breeder sex hot. Go figure.) What about so-called slash, and m/m romances, which seem to be produced by women in some significant numbers?

Alternatively, if we tried to define "male" vs. "female" erotica by point-of-view--what would that entail? It can't be merely "who's talking", because there are plenty of examples of men writing porn in female voice, as in Fanny Hill. Ideas?

>31 LolaWalser:
I offer a thousand apologies. For some reason, probably ARB 'Age-Related Befuddlement', I got thoroughly confused in my reading of the 'Dictionary', while looking in parallel at the identity of Catherine R-G and Jean de Berg. As you correctly point out, the age mismatch would make my deduction very unlikely, and I should have thought more deeply before writing. The Dictionary says nothing useful about the authorship of 'Teleny'. Again, sorry to have purveyed this red herring.

Incidentally, Amazon's entry for the Dictionary has a 'search' option which omits only a small proportion of pages. As there are 1104 pages, a search can be surprisingly useful on many occasions ... (;-)

Eh, no worries! One would like to think there are still philological surprises in store.

Thanks for the tip about the Dictionary. Cataloguing Sade's library has given me new impetus to explore libertine literature and reference material isn't too plentiful.

By the way, is it true that the British Library still sequesters its erotic catalogue away from the general collection? In something called a "Cherry Cabinet" or similar?

WOW! I never thought of that before. You have a very valid point and it definitely makes me wonder too! What if a woman writes erotica that's from a males point of view? Hmmm.... Would that be considered porn or erotica?

>33 LolaWalser:

Re: British Library Erotica

As far as I know the BL erotic trove is still 'electric-fenced'. But I expect that a researcher with a demonstrable academic need can still get in. I once achieved access - on a totally different subject - I was researching a scientific topic that had its origins about two millennia back - and even that topic needed substantial effort and an accredited university. Of course that was in the days when the Library was housed in the Museum, so maybe things have changed.

The Wikipedia entry is presumably up to date: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Case

The BL website includes, in a list of "important special collections", Ashbee and Dingwall collections of erotica.

It seems that the stuff that could be obtained at the nearest bookshop or newsstand has been dispersed into the general collections. The core material (presumably including Ashbee's leather-bound contributions) remains segregated - they say for the protection of the objects themselves.

I haven't been in the BL since the 70's, when you could look at Scott's diary or a Magna Carta ... albeit under glass. After the thefts in North America from many relatively secure public map collections by a single freelance 'scholar', I can see this could be a valid concern, from a librarian's point of view.

Of course, from my non-librarian POV, it does look a little bit like the old notion that this stuff is only safe to be viewed by white male aristocrats ...