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1richardbsmith
One critic described this as an important religious poem of the 20th c.
George Oppen was, I think, a non practicing Jew.
It took a little time and effort to appreciate his poetry. I have slowly developed some appreciation for his work, and this poem especially.
https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/psalm-4
George Oppen was, I think, a non practicing Jew.
It took a little time and effort to appreciate his poetry. I have slowly developed some appreciation for his work, and this poem especially.
https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/psalm-4
3richardbsmith
Two aspects rrp.
One aspect would involve the ideas that inform the poem. These of course could be written in a less condensed prose.
The poetic aspect is the other, and that is the condensing of the ideas into images. Some of that condensation is in the juxtaposition of words.
As an example, small - small beauty, small nouns. And the comparison set by the Latin. Which suggests truth to be found in big nouns, big concepts. Not in small beauty. Eating some grass.
The small beauty of "They who are there." They who exist, physically.
One aspect would involve the ideas that inform the poem. These of course could be written in a less condensed prose.
The poetic aspect is the other, and that is the condensing of the ideas into images. Some of that condensation is in the juxtaposition of words.
As an example, small - small beauty, small nouns. And the comparison set by the Latin. Which suggests truth to be found in big nouns, big concepts. Not in small beauty. Eating some grass.
The small beauty of "They who are there." They who exist, physically.
4rrp
>4 rrp:
Thanks for your explanation; but I fear it is lost on me. I will understand if you pass now; it must be hard work explaining it to someone with such a low poetry intelligence like me. But maybe you could explain what the ideas are that inform the poem and how you worked out what they are?
Thanks for your explanation; but I fear it is lost on me. I will understand if you pass now; it must be hard work explaining it to someone with such a low poetry intelligence like me. But maybe you could explain what the ideas are that inform the poem and how you worked out what they are?
5richardbsmith
The first step is the assumption is that the poet had an idea which the images (for this objectivist poet - images) conveyed to him and to the reader.
For me the next step is that word selection is deliberate.
Then read and read again, and consider. This poem took some time for me to work through and to consider, and generally Objectivist poetry does. The writing is so bare.
Why Veritas sequitur to introduce the piece? What does that have to do with deer eating grass?
What does it mean? Why write in Latin?
For me the next step is that word selection is deliberate.
Then read and read again, and consider. This poem took some time for me to work through and to consider, and generally Objectivist poetry does. The writing is so bare.
Why Veritas sequitur to introduce the piece? What does that have to do with deer eating grass?
What does it mean? Why write in Latin?
6rrp
Why write in Latin? The first thing that comes to mind is the obscure, exclusionary language used by lawyers and others, meant to signal membership of an elite. Its use here caused a similar first impression on me, which has not been helped by your use of "Objectivist poetry" and the jargon work "image". It seems you need a whole boat load of background knowledge that I don't have just to make a start on understanding what the poem is about. I don't have clue about your other questions, but thanks again for trying to explain.
7richardbsmith
Boat loads of background knowledge is not needed. Actually New Criticism and Objectivists might argue that the poem stands alone, as an object, without even the reader's input.
I disagree with that approach. However we can take them at their word, and continue if you are of such a mind.
The Latin suggests Aquinas, and perhaps others, searching for a proof of God's existence. The phrase continues as "Truth follows existence."
Such questions suggest big words, to contrast with small beauty and small nouns. We might think of Truth with a capital letter, of the kind one might ask What is Truth, compared to a truth with a small letter, of the kind one might point to a small beautiful setting in the woods with deer bedding for the night.
Oppen answers this big question, one that requires the use of Latin phrasing, with a small beautiful scene with deer pausing to graze.
I disagree with that approach. However we can take them at their word, and continue if you are of such a mind.
The Latin suggests Aquinas, and perhaps others, searching for a proof of God's existence. The phrase continues as "Truth follows existence."
Such questions suggest big words, to contrast with small beauty and small nouns. We might think of Truth with a capital letter, of the kind one might ask What is Truth, compared to a truth with a small letter, of the kind one might point to a small beautiful setting in the woods with deer bedding for the night.
Oppen answers this big question, one that requires the use of Latin phrasing, with a small beautiful scene with deer pausing to graze.
8MarthaJeanne
I don't get it. OK deer in the woods. But how this is supposed to be deep, religious... Beats me.
In general, I try to avoid 'literature'.
In general, I try to avoid 'literature'.
9richardbsmith
How about "crying faith?"
Perhaps a start of something religious there?
Perhaps a start of something religious there?
10southernbooklady
>7 richardbsmith: The Latin suggests Aquinas, and perhaps others, searching for a proof of God's existence. The phrase continues as "Truth follows existence."
It also evokes a religious, spiritual response to seeing a group of deer in a forest. A sense of wonder, perhaps. ("They are here!"). The title of the poem is "Psalm" after all -- a song of praise. The poem is certainly constructed like a song or a prayer.
I think the specificity of the leaves, the eyes of the deer, their teeth, the roots of the grass is not so much a contrast to the more generic "nouns" but almost like the poet is suggesting that language has the same physicality, the same kind of existence, as leaves. And truth follows the existence of things. These days we sometimes say "God is in the details."
It also evokes a religious, spiritual response to seeing a group of deer in a forest. A sense of wonder, perhaps. ("They are here!"). The title of the poem is "Psalm" after all -- a song of praise. The poem is certainly constructed like a song or a prayer.
I think the specificity of the leaves, the eyes of the deer, their teeth, the roots of the grass is not so much a contrast to the more generic "nouns" but almost like the poet is suggesting that language has the same physicality, the same kind of existence, as leaves. And truth follows the existence of things. These days we sometimes say "God is in the details."
11richardbsmith
"not so much a contrast to the more generic "nouns" but almost like the poet is suggesting that language has the same physicality, "
That is an excellent read of the small nouns. I missed picking that up.
Does perhaps small nouns contrast to bigger nouns that might contain bigger, more metaphysical, ideas?
That is an excellent read of the small nouns. I missed picking that up.
Does perhaps small nouns contrast to bigger nouns that might contain bigger, more metaphysical, ideas?
12southernbooklady
>11 richardbsmith: small nouns contrast to bigger nouns that might contain bigger, more metaphysical, ideas?
I'm not very good at metaphysics, but I suppose I would say that within the small is the essence of the big -- that seems to be the idea of the poem, anyway. That the great ("truth" or "God") is within the small -- just like Blake and his grains of sand and drops of water. Another way to look at it (keeping the religious message) would be to say that everything that exists is a miracle, because existence is miraculous. But "ideas" have the same quality of existence as leaves or deer in this sense. They are things. Of-this-world things.
The verses of the poem are constructed of juxtapositions -- soft lips/alien teeth; nuzzle/tear; roots/dangling, paths/fields, shade/sun -- it's as if the poet is talking all around what existence is, circling that-which-is-truth at the center of it all. His epiphany makes him cry out, which makes the deer look up and out towards it.
It's beautifully done, it never loses the music it is trying to make. Like all good poetry, the words chosen, and the way they are placed, are meant to convey multiple ideas and impressions simultaneously. That's why I think of poetry as "information dense" -- there is what they say, what they mean, how they sound, and of course what you, the reader, think of when you hear them. But I tend to resist too fine a critical analysis of such things. At some point you risk dismembering the poem in your search for "what it means."
I'm not very good at metaphysics, but I suppose I would say that within the small is the essence of the big -- that seems to be the idea of the poem, anyway. That the great ("truth" or "God") is within the small -- just like Blake and his grains of sand and drops of water. Another way to look at it (keeping the religious message) would be to say that everything that exists is a miracle, because existence is miraculous. But "ideas" have the same quality of existence as leaves or deer in this sense. They are things. Of-this-world things.
The verses of the poem are constructed of juxtapositions -- soft lips/alien teeth; nuzzle/tear; roots/dangling, paths/fields, shade/sun -- it's as if the poet is talking all around what existence is, circling that-which-is-truth at the center of it all. His epiphany makes him cry out, which makes the deer look up and out towards it.
It's beautifully done, it never loses the music it is trying to make. Like all good poetry, the words chosen, and the way they are placed, are meant to convey multiple ideas and impressions simultaneously. That's why I think of poetry as "information dense" -- there is what they say, what they mean, how they sound, and of course what you, the reader, think of when you hear them. But I tend to resist too fine a critical analysis of such things. At some point you risk dismembering the poem in your search for "what it means."
13richardbsmith
The deer startling is my favorite part.
I also like the contrast of the distances of the Sun and proximity of the leaves that shade.
Very nice reading of it, SBL.
I also like the contrast of the distances of the Sun and proximity of the leaves that shade.
Very nice reading of it, SBL.
14southernbooklady
>13 richardbsmith: I found an article about Oppen's feud with Denise Levertov (something I didn't know about) that goes into what the two poets wanted to articulate about the nature of belief and whether it "passes the test" of reality:
http://jacket2.org/article/test-belief
I might be reading this wrong, but it sounds to me that he is saying that which can't be articulated, might not be "real." Or true. I'll have to see if I can dig up a copy of the essay to see if I can get a sense of the greater context.
http://jacket2.org/article/test-belief
...(he) maintained in an essay of the same year, “The Mind’s Own Place,” that the act of writing poetry is the surest test of belief. For him, it was essential to remember that “the great many things one believes or would like to believe or thinks he believes will not substantiate themselves in the concrete details of the poem.”
I might be reading this wrong, but it sounds to me that he is saying that which can't be articulated, might not be "real." Or true. I'll have to see if I can dig up a copy of the essay to see if I can get a sense of the greater context.
15richardbsmith
I did not know of that feud either.
But I think he generally challenges the idea of a transcendent being.
And that might be the point of the small noun in this poem, psalm, that truth follows from what exists, no need to ponder transcendence.
And the idea of the poem as tangible and concrete, an idea you glimpsed in the "small nouns" as the words of the poem, is very much part of his and his contemporaries understanding of poetry, as an object with its own existence, concreteness.
But I think he generally challenges the idea of a transcendent being.
And that might be the point of the small noun in this poem, psalm, that truth follows from what exists, no need to ponder transcendence.
And the idea of the poem as tangible and concrete, an idea you glimpsed in the "small nouns" as the words of the poem, is very much part of his and his contemporaries understanding of poetry, as an object with its own existence, concreteness.
17southernbooklady
>15 richardbsmith: that truth follows from what exists, no need to ponder transcendence.
his and his contemporaries understanding of poetry, as an object with its own existence, concreteness.
Ideas that have some attraction for me, to be honest.
his and his contemporaries understanding of poetry, as an object with its own existence, concreteness.
Ideas that have some attraction for me, to be honest.
18richardbsmith
Here you go. I posted this in the Evolution group, but received no comment.
Lorine Niedecker is my favorite modern poet.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/245698
Lorine Niedecker is my favorite modern poet.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/245698
19rrp
>7 richardbsmith:
It sounds like I am naive in thinking that "the poem stands" alone and can be understood without having read Thomas Aquinas in the original Latin, and in the discussion above, it does seem that you need a lot of background information to understand what this particular poet was trying to say. I did a Google search of "Veritas sequitur" but most returns led back to this poem, plus a few philosophy pieces. Heavy going.
But I am still curious what attracted you to it in the first place. Did you have that background knowledge? You said "The first step is the assumption is that the poet had an idea which the images (for this objectivist poet - images) conveyed to him and to the reader." I am still not quite sure what is that idea. Is it "truth follows existence"? Does one have to study Aquinas to understand what that phrase means? And what are the "images"? No images were mentioned in the poem, as far as I can tell (maybe there is one hidden in a metaphor). It seem to be just descriptions of grazing deer. And what is "small beauty" and what are "small nouns" (I think I get the small teeth, but I can't be sure now)?
It sounds like I am naive in thinking that "the poem stands" alone and can be understood without having read Thomas Aquinas in the original Latin, and in the discussion above, it does seem that you need a lot of background information to understand what this particular poet was trying to say. I did a Google search of "Veritas sequitur" but most returns led back to this poem, plus a few philosophy pieces. Heavy going.
But I am still curious what attracted you to it in the first place. Did you have that background knowledge? You said "The first step is the assumption is that the poet had an idea which the images (for this objectivist poet - images) conveyed to him and to the reader." I am still not quite sure what is that idea. Is it "truth follows existence"? Does one have to study Aquinas to understand what that phrase means? And what are the "images"? No images were mentioned in the poem, as far as I can tell (maybe there is one hidden in a metaphor). It seem to be just descriptions of grazing deer. And what is "small beauty" and what are "small nouns" (I think I get the small teeth, but I can't be sure now)?
20richardbsmith
There are no prerequisites for understanding the poem.
The Latin has its effect without having studied Aquinas. I have not studied Aquinas. My suspicion is that SBL has not studied Aquinas, and I think perhaps Oppen himself had not very much studied Aquinas. For one thing he was Jewish.
He had encountered that Latin phrase at some point. As you stated, that phrase does not have much presence on Google outside of this poem.
And I think generally with the poem comes a footnote about the meaning of the phrase.
Truth follows. He left off existence.
So we are left with a Latin phrase to begin this poem about deer bedding and grazing.
Have you had an encounter that had effect?
I imagine that the poet had just such an encounter. Catching deer at a small place, eating with small teeth, grass that came from Earth, leaving a path behind them (temporary and small), standing under leaves the shaded the distant Sun.
And the encounter had him consider Truth, with a capital letter. That consideration brought him to the small scenes, in which there is daily faith. Small nouns is an open phrase.
Perhaps it refers to humans, not humanity, but individuals. Perhaps as SBL mentioned, it refers to the words of the writing.
I think it is the present moment, the present people (or deer).
And the end is a startle to challenge the faith in that moment.
And the staring out, still the question is there something more than this present?
Small beauty might contrast with big beauty - the grand concepts. Likewise small nouns compares with the capital Truth, absolute and eternal.
And I think small means intimate and present.
The effect on the poet, and on the reader, is that each recognizes themselves in that scene.
And they cry faith in the present, even as we startle and stare.
To ramble on a bit more.
I like the flow in the poem. This is the craft part. The interjections of That they are there and They who are there.
Those interrupt the scene with the poets thoughts.
Truth follows, that they are there, they who are there.
The Latin has its effect without having studied Aquinas. I have not studied Aquinas. My suspicion is that SBL has not studied Aquinas, and I think perhaps Oppen himself had not very much studied Aquinas. For one thing he was Jewish.
He had encountered that Latin phrase at some point. As you stated, that phrase does not have much presence on Google outside of this poem.
And I think generally with the poem comes a footnote about the meaning of the phrase.
Truth follows. He left off existence.
So we are left with a Latin phrase to begin this poem about deer bedding and grazing.
Have you had an encounter that had effect?
I imagine that the poet had just such an encounter. Catching deer at a small place, eating with small teeth, grass that came from Earth, leaving a path behind them (temporary and small), standing under leaves the shaded the distant Sun.
And the encounter had him consider Truth, with a capital letter. That consideration brought him to the small scenes, in which there is daily faith. Small nouns is an open phrase.
Perhaps it refers to humans, not humanity, but individuals. Perhaps as SBL mentioned, it refers to the words of the writing.
I think it is the present moment, the present people (or deer).
And the end is a startle to challenge the faith in that moment.
And the staring out, still the question is there something more than this present?
Small beauty might contrast with big beauty - the grand concepts. Likewise small nouns compares with the capital Truth, absolute and eternal.
And I think small means intimate and present.
The effect on the poet, and on the reader, is that each recognizes themselves in that scene.
And they cry faith in the present, even as we startle and stare.
To ramble on a bit more.
I like the flow in the poem. This is the craft part. The interjections of That they are there and They who are there.
Those interrupt the scene with the poets thoughts.
Truth follows, that they are there, they who are there.
21southernbooklady
>20 richardbsmith: There are no prerequisites for understanding the poem.
The Latin has its effect without having studied Aquinas. I have not studied Aquinas. My suspicion is that SBL has not studied Aquinas
In point of fact, I knew nothing about either the poem or Oppen when I first read it. I still know almost nothing. And my Aquinas, such as it is, comes from the deep recesses of a long-ago college survey course. I'm in no way familiar with him, and certainly haven't studied him.
As for the Latin, I just looked it up the way I'd look up a word I didn't know in a dictionary. But it was clear to me that the phrase had a certain familiarity of usage, that "Veritas sequitur esse" was one of those sayings like "caveat emptor" or "in vino veritas" that would be recognizable.
It was also clear to me that Oppen's decision to quote only the first part of the saying was deliberate, because as you said above, in poetry all the word choices are deliberate.
Have you had an encounter that had effect?
I enjoy being awake to what one writer friend of mine once called "the poetic moment" -- epiphany and beauty and presence all perceived together, all at once. One time, it happened to me when I saw a white swan suddenly appear out of a hidden gully in the marsh, and it made the whole vista look different. One time, it happened to me when I saw my neighbor feeding bread to the seagulls in her front yard -- that was especially striking to me because I knew that gulls frightened her, and that she was only feeding them because her husband liked to feed the gulls, only he was laid up after knee surgery, drinking scotch to make the situation more bearable. That's a lot going on in the image of one old woman feeding birds. It needs a poem to really make the moment understood.
I think it is the present moment, the present people (or deer).
I think the poem is all about the present moment, the people and things in it.
And they cry faith in the present, even as we startle and stare.
It's funny, isn't it? We think of "Truth" as this permanent thing, something eternal, a fixed point, but in reality our experience of truth is very ephemeral...we barely glimpse it and something is startling us to make us look up and out towards whatever is beyond the present moment.
The Latin has its effect without having studied Aquinas. I have not studied Aquinas. My suspicion is that SBL has not studied Aquinas
In point of fact, I knew nothing about either the poem or Oppen when I first read it. I still know almost nothing. And my Aquinas, such as it is, comes from the deep recesses of a long-ago college survey course. I'm in no way familiar with him, and certainly haven't studied him.
As for the Latin, I just looked it up the way I'd look up a word I didn't know in a dictionary. But it was clear to me that the phrase had a certain familiarity of usage, that "Veritas sequitur esse" was one of those sayings like "caveat emptor" or "in vino veritas" that would be recognizable.
It was also clear to me that Oppen's decision to quote only the first part of the saying was deliberate, because as you said above, in poetry all the word choices are deliberate.
Have you had an encounter that had effect?
I enjoy being awake to what one writer friend of mine once called "the poetic moment" -- epiphany and beauty and presence all perceived together, all at once. One time, it happened to me when I saw a white swan suddenly appear out of a hidden gully in the marsh, and it made the whole vista look different. One time, it happened to me when I saw my neighbor feeding bread to the seagulls in her front yard -- that was especially striking to me because I knew that gulls frightened her, and that she was only feeding them because her husband liked to feed the gulls, only he was laid up after knee surgery, drinking scotch to make the situation more bearable. That's a lot going on in the image of one old woman feeding birds. It needs a poem to really make the moment understood.
I think it is the present moment, the present people (or deer).
I think the poem is all about the present moment, the people and things in it.
And they cry faith in the present, even as we startle and stare.
It's funny, isn't it? We think of "Truth" as this permanent thing, something eternal, a fixed point, but in reality our experience of truth is very ephemeral...we barely glimpse it and something is startling us to make us look up and out towards whatever is beyond the present moment.
22richardbsmith
We could perhaps look at the other linked poems, for contrast. Leverton >16 richardbsmith: and Niedecker >18 richardbsmith:
23Jesse_wiedinmyer
Was ist so nur?
24richardbsmith
Nothing?
25rrp
>20 richardbsmith:
Thanks again for the explanation. It's appreciated, but I fear I am not much more along the path to understanding.
I have to admit, I have a little Latin, and didn't need to look up Veritas sequitur, but wasn't familiar with the longer phrase from Aquinas.
It baffles me how you see so much more in the words of the poem than I seem to be able to do. You asked "Have you had an encounter that had effect?". Well, I don't know what the effect is, but guess that fact means I haven't.
I do know some truths about deer. They wander down out of their paths in the woods and I often catch them, in the early morning, grazing with their BIG teeth on what would potentially be flowers in my garden. I don't like deer. They also bring with them ticks, which bring with them Lyme Disease. I know people who have Lyme Disease. It's nasty. Deer are pests. The only faith they cry to me is what possible practical means do I have to stop them.
Thanks again for the explanation. It's appreciated, but I fear I am not much more along the path to understanding.
I have to admit, I have a little Latin, and didn't need to look up Veritas sequitur, but wasn't familiar with the longer phrase from Aquinas.
It baffles me how you see so much more in the words of the poem than I seem to be able to do. You asked "Have you had an encounter that had effect?". Well, I don't know what the effect is, but guess that fact means I haven't.
I do know some truths about deer. They wander down out of their paths in the woods and I often catch them, in the early morning, grazing with their BIG teeth on what would potentially be flowers in my garden. I don't like deer. They also bring with them ticks, which bring with them Lyme Disease. I know people who have Lyme Disease. It's nasty. Deer are pests. The only faith they cry to me is what possible practical means do I have to stop them.
26richardbsmith
The deer are just living out their lives. As are you and I.
I love the phrase the cut worm forgives the plow.
Of course Oppen sees the deer in a small woods, not in your garden.
Try the Niedecker poem linked above.
It has some bigger ideas.
I love the phrase the cut worm forgives the plow.
Of course Oppen sees the deer in a small woods, not in your garden.
Try the Niedecker poem linked above.
It has some bigger ideas.
27rrp
So are the Borrelia burgdorferi. But that doesn't mean that it would not be a good thing for all if they were eradicated. People have a very selective sentimentality about nature.
28richardbsmith
Good perhaps for us.
Which brings us to another religious question.
Is life and the universe about us?
Which brings us to another religious question.
Is life and the universe about us?
29southernbooklady
>22 richardbsmith: I like the concreteness of the imagery in "Darwin" -- and the random, happenstance way understanding of the natural world comes in fits and starts, overturning what we think we know at every turn, yet at the same time tantalizing us with hints of laws and patterns that should be within our grasp to comprehend.
>26 richardbsmith: Of course Oppen sees the deer in a small woods, not in your garden.
Indeed. In the woods, a human being may be as much of a pest in the eyes of a deer as they are pests in the eyes of a gardener. I seem to remember reading that in the life cycle of the pathogen that causes Lyme disease, the explosion of the field mouse population thanks to the eradication of top predators was a more significant factor than the deer.
>26 richardbsmith: Of course Oppen sees the deer in a small woods, not in your garden.
Indeed. In the woods, a human being may be as much of a pest in the eyes of a deer as they are pests in the eyes of a gardener. I seem to remember reading that in the life cycle of the pathogen that causes Lyme disease, the explosion of the field mouse population thanks to the eradication of top predators was a more significant factor than the deer.
31rrp
I read the Necker poem twice, slowly. It seems to be a bunch of disconnected phrase that aren't quite sentences, strangely indented. I gather it's something to do with Darwin (from the Title.) How do I get more out of it?
32rrp
>28 richardbsmith: Which brings us to another religious question. Is life and the universe about us?
There was another religious question? I must have missed it. When you ask "Is life and the universe about us?", what do you mean by "about"? Is that a "What's the Meaning of Life" question?
There was another religious question? I must have missed it. When you ask "Is life and the universe about us?", what do you mean by "about"? Is that a "What's the Meaning of Life" question?
33richardbsmith
sbl,
I think your last comment is a fine close to this thread.
But I will continue anyway. : )
I went to see the Good Dinosaur yesterday with a bunch of grandbabies.
After about 6 hours of commercials, the movie began. 65 MYA. In the very unrealistically overcrowded asteroid belt. Where one asteroid gets bumped by another.
That bumped asteroid is sent downwards to the Earth, and we follow its path.
As it enters the atmosphere we see the asteroid begin to heat up. And we see the dinosaurs look up at the fireball.
And then.
It misses.
We see it zoom past the Earth.
The next scene is many millions of years later. A family of dinosaurs is working their farm and speaking English. Fussing about the critters that steal food from the storage bins.
That critter we soon learn is a human boy, not able to speak. Crawling on all fours.
I think your last comment is a fine close to this thread.
But I will continue anyway. : )
I went to see the Good Dinosaur yesterday with a bunch of grandbabies.
After about 6 hours of commercials, the movie began. 65 MYA. In the very unrealistically overcrowded asteroid belt. Where one asteroid gets bumped by another.
That bumped asteroid is sent downwards to the Earth, and we follow its path.
As it enters the atmosphere we see the asteroid begin to heat up. And we see the dinosaurs look up at the fireball.
And then.
It misses.
We see it zoom past the Earth.
The next scene is many millions of years later. A family of dinosaurs is working their farm and speaking English. Fussing about the critters that steal food from the storage bins.
That critter we soon learn is a human boy, not able to speak. Crawling on all fours.
34richardbsmith
rrp,
For the Darwin poem, I think it is helpful to approach each stanza almost separately. I think she was trying to capture the essence of the passion, the anxieties, the struggles, the pressures, the vision of Darwin. Using resources and accounts.
Lorine Neidecker is my favorite 20thc poet. She is someone I wish I had known personally.
And with the Darwin poem, it might help to know more about Darwin. About his writings. It can help to google the quoted phrases.
For the Darwin poem, I think it is helpful to approach each stanza almost separately. I think she was trying to capture the essence of the passion, the anxieties, the struggles, the pressures, the vision of Darwin. Using resources and accounts.
Lorine Neidecker is my favorite 20thc poet. She is someone I wish I had known personally.
And with the Darwin poem, it might help to know more about Darwin. About his writings. It can help to google the quoted phrases.
35rrp
Well the first stanza is "I His holy slowly mulled over matter", which is indented in a strange way, which I am guessing means something. It's a fragment of a sentence so doesn't complete a meaning. The "His" is capitalized, the "holy" is not. These must all mean something, but it's meaning is really is beyond me. Can you translate?
36richardbsmith
https://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/letter/entry-2814
With respect to the theological view of the question; this is always painful to me.— I am bewildered.— I had no intention to write atheistically. But I own that I cannot see, as plainly as others do, & as I shd wish to do, evidence of design & beneficence on all sides of us.
There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.
Not believing this, I see no necessity in the belief that the eye was expressly designed. On the other hand I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe & especially the nature of man, & to conclude that everything is the result of brute force.
I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me. I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton.— Let each man hope & believe what he can.—
With respect to the theological view of the question; this is always painful to me.— I am bewildered.— I had no intention to write atheistically. But I own that I cannot see, as plainly as others do, & as I shd wish to do, evidence of design & beneficence on all sides of us.
There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.
Not believing this, I see no necessity in the belief that the eye was expressly designed. On the other hand I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe & especially the nature of man, & to conclude that everything is the result of brute force.
I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me. I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton.— Let each man hope & believe what he can.—
37rrp
And with the Darwin poem, it might help to know more about Darwin. About his writings. It can help to google the quoted phrases.
Ah. It's one of those poems you need a boat load (from the Beagle) of background knowledge to understand. Darwin has never really appealed to me as a person. His reputation is overrated and I am not much into reading hagiographies.
Ah. It's one of those poems you need a boat load (from the Beagle) of background knowledge to understand. Darwin has never really appealed to me as a person. His reputation is overrated and I am not much into reading hagiographies.
39richardbsmith
rrp,
It is fine to dismiss Darwin should that be your position.
But the questions and the wonder remain, even absent the man.
I think Niedecker's poem captures the questions well, even as she describes her esteem for the man.
It is fine to dismiss Darwin should that be your position.
But the questions and the wonder remain, even absent the man.
I think Niedecker's poem captures the questions well, even as she describes her esteem for the man.
41richardbsmith
Where? Why? When? How?
And perhaps What?
And perhaps What?
42rrp
There was one question mark in the poem, in the line "The will of God?", which isn't a sentence. I assume it is asking if the wave which demolished the town was the Will of God? That's a theological question beyond me.
44richardbsmith
The poem is full of questions. And perhaps only the one is marked by punctuation.
As to Man
“I believe Man…
in the same predicament
with other animals”
A statement perhaps. But also a question.
I have asked questions by means of a long paragraph of statements, which once stated seek conformation or correction.
As to Man
“I believe Man…
in the same predicament
with other animals”
A statement perhaps. But also a question.
I have asked questions by means of a long paragraph of statements, which once stated seek conformation or correction.
45richardbsmith
until—before his eyes
earthquake—
Talcahuana Bay drained out—
all-water wall
up from the ocean
—six seconds—
demolished the town
The will of God?
Let us pray
This is a poem complete in itself. As I think most of the stanzas in "Darwin" are.
And this is a question for which faith in an omnipotent God must answer. A question that has been asked throughout the ages of religious life.
earthquake—
Talcahuana Bay drained out—
all-water wall
up from the ocean
—six seconds—
demolished the town
The will of God?
Let us pray
This is a poem complete in itself. As I think most of the stanzas in "Darwin" are.
And this is a question for which faith in an omnipotent God must answer. A question that has been asked throughout the ages of religious life.
46southernbooklady
>44 richardbsmith: “I believe Man…
in the same predicament
with other animals”
A statement perhaps. But also a question.
"Man is in the same predicament with other animals" is a statement made as a fact.
"I believe Man in the same predicament with other animals" is a an acknowledgement that whatever the speaker believes, others may have different beliefs. It is, therefore, a conditional statement, which means there is room to question.
(It's been my experience with religion, by the way, that there is always something in it that one is not allowed to question. This is why I doubt its ultimate claim of Truth)
The interesting thing about the Darwin poem is that even if you knew nothing about the man, the poem tells you what you need to know -- that he is a scientist, a naturalist, a man of vision and one whose ideas were revolutionary and controversial:
“Species are not
(it is like confessing
a murder)
immutable”
That he was a traveler, and the places he traveled to. The people he knew, corresponded with, influenced and was influenced by, the curiosity and exploration that was a hallmark of his era, the specific species he studied, the questions people were asking of the things they discovered. The sense of wonder that pervaded the times.
Not so shabby for a poem of about 420 words.
As for the first line:
His holy
slowly
mulled over
matter
I'll take a stab at it. Given that it is the first line in a poem titled "Darwin" I'd guess that "holy" here is referring to Charles Darwin himself, who is, shall we say, canonized in the halls of science and indeed the modern era. His name is a byword at this point. "slowly" is simply an accurate description of his work pace -- he's famously known to be a slow, deliberate thinker and writer who took ages to put out a book. The waterfall effect of "His holy" ("His" being capitalized because it is the start of the sentence, no great mystery there) -- slowly -- mulled over is aesthetically pleasing but also foreshadows the natural processes that appear later in the poem. The motions of water are a common element. And "matter" left to itself on the next line brings the waterfall to a full stop, like hitting the earth. It is a solid thing. Which is of course one meanign of "matter" -- that which has mass and volume, ei, "stuff".
But the thing about the poem is that you don't need to know Darwin was a slow writer to appreciate the poem -- the poem itself has told you he works slowly. All you really need to do is decide whether you trust the poet is telling you the truth.
in the same predicament
with other animals”
A statement perhaps. But also a question.
"Man is in the same predicament with other animals" is a statement made as a fact.
"I believe Man in the same predicament with other animals" is a an acknowledgement that whatever the speaker believes, others may have different beliefs. It is, therefore, a conditional statement, which means there is room to question.
(It's been my experience with religion, by the way, that there is always something in it that one is not allowed to question. This is why I doubt its ultimate claim of Truth)
The interesting thing about the Darwin poem is that even if you knew nothing about the man, the poem tells you what you need to know -- that he is a scientist, a naturalist, a man of vision and one whose ideas were revolutionary and controversial:
“Species are not
(it is like confessing
a murder)
immutable”
That he was a traveler, and the places he traveled to. The people he knew, corresponded with, influenced and was influenced by, the curiosity and exploration that was a hallmark of his era, the specific species he studied, the questions people were asking of the things they discovered. The sense of wonder that pervaded the times.
Not so shabby for a poem of about 420 words.
As for the first line:
His holy
slowly
mulled over
matter
I'll take a stab at it. Given that it is the first line in a poem titled "Darwin" I'd guess that "holy" here is referring to Charles Darwin himself, who is, shall we say, canonized in the halls of science and indeed the modern era. His name is a byword at this point. "slowly" is simply an accurate description of his work pace -- he's famously known to be a slow, deliberate thinker and writer who took ages to put out a book. The waterfall effect of "His holy" ("His" being capitalized because it is the start of the sentence, no great mystery there) -- slowly -- mulled over is aesthetically pleasing but also foreshadows the natural processes that appear later in the poem. The motions of water are a common element. And "matter" left to itself on the next line brings the waterfall to a full stop, like hitting the earth. It is a solid thing. Which is of course one meanign of "matter" -- that which has mass and volume, ei, "stuff".
But the thing about the poem is that you don't need to know Darwin was a slow writer to appreciate the poem -- the poem itself has told you he works slowly. All you really need to do is decide whether you trust the poet is telling you the truth.
47richardbsmith
Great read of the first stanza.
It is great poetry - if for no other cause than its lyrics.
The verse can be read with so many meanings, and all of them correct.
The lyrics though challenge the best of Hopkins.
It is great poetry - if for no other cause than its lyrics.
The verse can be read with so many meanings, and all of them correct.
The lyrics though challenge the best of Hopkins.
49Jesse_wiedinmyer
>36 richardbsmith:
The master teaches his students that God created everything to be appreciated and to teach us a lesson. The clever student asks "What lesson can we learn from the atheists? Why did God create them?"
The master responds "God created the atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all -- the lesson of compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of a religious teaching. He does not believe God commanded him to perform this act. In fact he does not believe in God at all, so his actions are based on his inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he could bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right."
The master teaches his students that God created everything to be appreciated and to teach us a lesson. The clever student asks "What lesson can we learn from the atheists? Why did God create them?"
The master responds "God created the atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all -- the lesson of compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of a religious teaching. He does not believe God commanded him to perform this act. In fact he does not believe in God at all, so his actions are based on his inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he could bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right."
50richardbsmith
Thanks Jesse.
Interestingly though, the question of God's reason for creating Atheists is not one I have asked.
The lead in instruction from the master though is a question related to some I have asked.
Was everything really created with us in mind?
Whether we be Atheist or Christian or other sort.
Interestingly though, the question of God's reason for creating Atheists is not one I have asked.
The lead in instruction from the master though is a question related to some I have asked.
Was everything really created with us in mind?
Whether we be Atheist or Christian or other sort.
51rrp
>44 richardbsmith:
I find it always best, if I want an answer, to be very clear that I am asking a question. How can you read "I believe Man ... in the same predicament with other animals” as a question? There are unknown bits missing, so the real question is "what the heck does it mean?".
>46 southernbooklady:
The interesting thing about the Darwin poem is that even if you knew nothing about the man, the poem tells you what you need to know -- that he is a scientist, a naturalist, a man of vision and one whose ideas were revolutionary and controversial: ... That he was a traveler, and the places he traveled to. The people he knew, corresponded with, influenced and was influenced by, the curiosity and exploration that was a hallmark of his era, the specific species he studied, the questions people were asking of the things they discovered. The sense of wonder that pervaded the times.
Not so shabby for a poem of about 420 words.
I got none of that, so I thought it shabby.
The people he knew, according to the poem, were Susan, Fitzroy, Lyell, Carlyle. We are told nothing about who they are. (Fitzroy may have been a captain, it's difficult to tell, the grammar is so muddled.) So the poem doesn't tell "you what you need to know". You need know Darwin's story to understand the poem, so what do the 420 words add, that you didn't know already?
>47 richardbsmith:
It is great poetry - if for no other cause than its lyrics.
What makes the lyrics great? How can you tell they are great? Is it just that you personally like them? I can't tell that they are great.
I find it always best, if I want an answer, to be very clear that I am asking a question. How can you read "I believe Man ... in the same predicament with other animals” as a question? There are unknown bits missing, so the real question is "what the heck does it mean?".
>46 southernbooklady:
The interesting thing about the Darwin poem is that even if you knew nothing about the man, the poem tells you what you need to know -- that he is a scientist, a naturalist, a man of vision and one whose ideas were revolutionary and controversial: ... That he was a traveler, and the places he traveled to. The people he knew, corresponded with, influenced and was influenced by, the curiosity and exploration that was a hallmark of his era, the specific species he studied, the questions people were asking of the things they discovered. The sense of wonder that pervaded the times.
Not so shabby for a poem of about 420 words.
I got none of that, so I thought it shabby.
The people he knew, according to the poem, were Susan, Fitzroy, Lyell, Carlyle. We are told nothing about who they are. (Fitzroy may have been a captain, it's difficult to tell, the grammar is so muddled.) So the poem doesn't tell "you what you need to know". You need know Darwin's story to understand the poem, so what do the 420 words add, that you didn't know already?
>47 richardbsmith:
It is great poetry - if for no other cause than its lyrics.
What makes the lyrics great? How can you tell they are great? Is it just that you personally like them? I can't tell that they are great.
52rrp
I apologize. I am getting frustrated by poetry again. I does it to me every time. I just don't get it.
53richardbsmith
rrp,
The poem may not be seeking an answer. And poetry is not necessarily an endeavor of seeking. It is an expression of life and the experience of things. The poet is inviting the reader to engage with her an experience, so that it becomes a shared experience.
Seeking, questioning, can be one of those experiences, that the poet invites others to share. The question is not expecting an answer. The poet is only sharing the experience of asking the question, or of anything else in the poet's experience.
The question that is in the statement of Darwin about man's predicament shared with the animals is in its context. It is a continuing question of humanity's place. Darwin's statement was made in the context of a big question, and advanced the consideration of the question.
sbl disagreed with me, rather calling the statement conditional. Made with the expectation of challenge, agreement, further questioning, or correction.
Let me hazard a response to the question you asked sbl.
The poem "Darwin" is an effort to convey something of the man and his work and his vision and his struggle. Perhaps it is also instructional. Should you not know of some quote, the poem is instructional. Should you know each allusion, then the poem is descriptive of the significance of the man and the ideas.
If you already know the events, you can consider whether that description is accurate or not. You can enjoy the poem, as any creation.
Why might one read a biography, if one already knows. The fresh insight of one who investigated perhaps more closely. The creativity of the poem itself.
The poem may not be seeking an answer. And poetry is not necessarily an endeavor of seeking. It is an expression of life and the experience of things. The poet is inviting the reader to engage with her an experience, so that it becomes a shared experience.
Seeking, questioning, can be one of those experiences, that the poet invites others to share. The question is not expecting an answer. The poet is only sharing the experience of asking the question, or of anything else in the poet's experience.
The question that is in the statement of Darwin about man's predicament shared with the animals is in its context. It is a continuing question of humanity's place. Darwin's statement was made in the context of a big question, and advanced the consideration of the question.
sbl disagreed with me, rather calling the statement conditional. Made with the expectation of challenge, agreement, further questioning, or correction.
Let me hazard a response to the question you asked sbl.
The poem "Darwin" is an effort to convey something of the man and his work and his vision and his struggle. Perhaps it is also instructional. Should you not know of some quote, the poem is instructional. Should you know each allusion, then the poem is descriptive of the significance of the man and the ideas.
If you already know the events, you can consider whether that description is accurate or not. You can enjoy the poem, as any creation.
Why might one read a biography, if one already knows. The fresh insight of one who investigated perhaps more closely. The creativity of the poem itself.
54richardbsmith
The greatness of the lyrical quality in
His holy
slowly
mulled over
matter
is subjective.
You might not like the sounds.
But the alliteration and the word meaning shifts are objectively there.
Great or not great is an opinion.
His holy
slowly
mulled over
matter
is subjective.
You might not like the sounds.
But the alliteration and the word meaning shifts are objectively there.
Great or not great is an opinion.
55richardbsmith
Ultimately though rrp, reading poetry is an enjoyment. It is not a philosophical or educational activity. Some people watch TV, some read murder mysteries, some read science fiction.
Perhaps watch movies. Play the piano, guitar.
Sports. Tennis.
Opera. The symphony.
Some read or write poetry.
Poetry is an artful expression of a person's ideas, feelings, or experiences.
If you don't enjoy it, don't read it.
Ain't no thang. : )
Perhaps watch movies. Play the piano, guitar.
Sports. Tennis.
Opera. The symphony.
Some read or write poetry.
Poetry is an artful expression of a person's ideas, feelings, or experiences.
If you don't enjoy it, don't read it.
Ain't no thang. : )
56rrp
The frustration comes, not from the fact that I don't enjoy it, but from the fact that I don't understand it.
I don't understand Mandarin, well only enough to say "Thank You", but feel confident I could learn to understand it given time. I have given time to trying to understand poetry, read several books, taken an online course even, but it still baffles me. I couldn't even say "Thank You" in poetry.
I don't understand Mandarin, well only enough to say "Thank You", but feel confident I could learn to understand it given time. I have given time to trying to understand poetry, read several books, taken an online course even, but it still baffles me. I couldn't even say "Thank You" in poetry.
57richardbsmith
We need a poetry appreciation group or thread. Or perhaps this one will do, if there is little interest in discussing the questions raised by the poets.
Which is the reason I posted the Oppen poem in LTR group.
For me, poetry appreciation is based on the manner of expression, less in the idea expressed.
So in the verse
His holy
slowly
mulled over
matter
I liked the sound and the double meanings and moving relationships with the words. There also is some ambiguity, and some allusions that hint at a larger context.
The idea could be expressed such as,
Darwin was a slow writer. Taking time to consider the data he had gathered from his investigations, as he was also careful in the conduct of his investigation. He took care because he believed his work to be near sacred in its import and effect. And he struggled with the pressure of its significance.
Which is the reason I posted the Oppen poem in LTR group.
For me, poetry appreciation is based on the manner of expression, less in the idea expressed.
So in the verse
His holy
slowly
mulled over
matter
I liked the sound and the double meanings and moving relationships with the words. There also is some ambiguity, and some allusions that hint at a larger context.
The idea could be expressed such as,
Darwin was a slow writer. Taking time to consider the data he had gathered from his investigations, as he was also careful in the conduct of his investigation. He took care because he believed his work to be near sacred in its import and effect. And he struggled with the pressure of its significance.
58richardbsmith
Here is another Neidecker poem about the poetic trade, the craft of poetry.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/182884
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/182884
59Jesse_wiedinmyer
Some more Levertov...
"The Rights"
I want to give you
something I’ve made
some words on a page--as if
to say ‘Here are some blue beads’
or, ‘Here’s a bright red leaf I found on
the sidewalk’ (because
to find is to choose, and choice
is made. But it’s difficult:
so far I’ve found
nothing but the wish to give. Or
copies of old words? Cheap
and cruel; also senseless:
Take
this instead, perhaps--a half-
promise: If
I ever write a poem of a certain temper
(willful, tender, evasive,
sad & rakish)
I’ll give it to you.
"The Rights"
I want to give you
something I’ve made
some words on a page--as if
to say ‘Here are some blue beads’
or, ‘Here’s a bright red leaf I found on
the sidewalk’ (because
to find is to choose, and choice
is made. But it’s difficult:
so far I’ve found
nothing but the wish to give. Or
copies of old words? Cheap
and cruel; also senseless:
Take
this instead, perhaps--a half-
promise: If
I ever write a poem of a certain temper
(willful, tender, evasive,
sad & rakish)
I’ll give it to you.
61southernbooklady
>53 richardbsmith: sbl disagreed with me, rather calling the statement conditional. Made with the expectation of challenge, agreement, further questioning, or correction.
I wasn't disagreeing, I was trying to show where the question was in the statement
"I believe Man…
in the same predicament
with other animals"
I wasn't disagreeing, I was trying to show where the question was in the statement
"I believe Man…
in the same predicament
with other animals"
62richardbsmith
Sorry sbl, I misconstrued the intent of the comment. Even so, I had thought it was a perceptive reading of the verse.
Jesse,
I like that poem. It almost seems a love poem, or a poem of missed love?
The title is interesting. I cannot yet connect the title and the poem. And the parentheses are also curious, taking most of the poem.
Jesse,
I like that poem. It almost seems a love poem, or a poem of missed love?
The title is interesting. I cannot yet connect the title and the poem. And the parentheses are also curious, taking most of the poem.
