Reading group - Tad Williams - Otherland

I think it is a good idea to start a group thread for the Otherland series by Tad Williams

Stad van Gouden Schaduw - City of Golden Shadow

Dutch: 784 pages

Rivier van Blauw Vuur - River of Blue Fire

Dutch: 660 pages

Berg van Zwart Glas - Mountain of Black Glass

Dutch: 679 pages

Zee van Zilveren Licht - Sea of Silver Light

Dutch: 960 pages

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The group:
avanders
connie53
ipsoivan

I'm liking it very much and I'm on page 155. It is fast reading and fun. I had the pronunciation of Renie right. And I can't click! So it's Xabboe for me. And I had to think long about that. I don't know if the oe sound exists in English or it's just a Dutch sound. It sounds like the ou in could.
I'm currently reading in chapter 8. It's called 'De Wreker' = The Avenger. I like Renie and !Xabbu's storyline best.

An Otherland thread - Love it! And you got my versions of the books up there :)
I really do like your versions better -- though they are similar, I like how the color bleeds to the ends :)

>2 connie53: lol I can't click either. I DO keep trying though. ;D
I guess if you can do it, it's like a click and then a G-H kind of sound coming from the back of your throat. I think he explains that later in the book....

I'll post my response to your comments from your thread here too:

I think Renie and !Xabbu's story line is very interesting and necessary to drive the plot - and there are elements of it that are particularly fun - but my favorite line is probably Paul Jonas's. I think I just love the creativity that went into his, and his is the most confusing of all the lines to me (which is a good thing in this book!) -- i.e., I have NO Idea where we are going with Paul! And then, I also LOVE when we get little peeks into Christbel and WHO is Mr. Sellers?! And of course, Orlando Gardiner and Dread are fascinating lines... yep. Just all of them. ;) So happy with this book!

I finished late last night. Really so pleased.

I did not read that much today so I'm not very far in the book, page 221.

That's more than a quarter! You're reading it really quickly :)
There were days when I didn't have much time either... I found myself reading in bigger and bigger chunks, though, as the book wore on ;)

I'm on page 239 now and somewhere in chapter 12 'Een blik door de spiegel' = 'a view through the mirror.
Paul is somewhere with a lot of kids called 'The kids from the oisterhouse'. He is followed by two men and I think they are Finch and Mullet

>6 connie53: I particularly liked that section as well. With all the allusions to Through the Looking Glass, I started to look for other literary references. I'm wondering about the section with Paul Jonas later (don't worry, no spoilers) when he seems to be in an adventure story trying to save the winged woman from the opening sequence. Have either of you read any Edgar Rice Burroughs, and if so, is this a spoof?

>7 ipsoivan: No I did not read anything of Edgar Rice Burroughs, so I wouldn't know.

Page 271, chapter 14: His master's voice.

Here we have Dread again and lots of gods and goddesses like Osiris, Horus, Sekhmet and Ra. And children again. Like the four people Renie meets when she is trying to save !Xabbu: Wicket, Bruinbrood (Brown Bread), Fluiter (Whistler) and Corduroy. Renie says they really acted like children.(chapter 11) and the children from the Oisterhouse

>6 connie53: oh yes yes.... good part. :D and good thought ;)

>7 ipsoivan: I really loved that section too! All those allusions were so clever ;)
hmmmm I hadn't thought of that, but you may be right! I wonder if all of his experiences are directly traceable to known literary stories

There's another when-you've-finished spoiler about Paul.. DON'T READ THIS SPOILER TIL YOU'RE DONE W/ THE FIRST BOOK
So, if all the brotherhood have their different worlds in the Otherland... then when Paul crosses over on the river, is he crossing to other brotherhood members' "lands" or is he crossing within one "land? I think the former, but I don't know that I am 100% confident on that. Also, it seems less likely that Paul's experiences are all directly traceable to known literary stories since each of the lands within the Otherworld universe was created by a different person -- they wouldn't all be interested in literary references. Of course, perhaps Tad is... ;) Also, I just love that Otherland is comprised of so many different worlds.. and I am very intrigued by the whole series, now that I know that the "golden city" was only Atasco's... :)

>9 connie53: (follows is a regular spoiler, as long as you know the reference in Post 9 (i.e., don't click on it if you don't know what Connie is talking about, but if you do, then you don't have to wait until the end of the book :)) yep, children in big numbers seem to be playing a large role in the stories.. very interesting theme :)

Okay! Now you've got me really curious with those spoilers I can't click on! I guess I will have to speed read ;-)

hee hee hee ;)
It's really only that 3rd (of 4) spoilers (the longest one) that you shouldn't click on until you're done ....

The long spoiler has me itching to get to the end. This morning when I was reading before work I was a little chagrined to pick this up instead of Pepys, but then I got past the part where they are in the military base (the set-up for which I found dull), and the storyline went back to Orlando, then to Mr. Sellars, then to the catastrophic entry into the VR--and now I'm home from work, I'm thinking I may have to read until I'm done. Oh dear.

yes, children. Agree about this, and wonder if it is a theme throughout the series. I suspect yes.

O my, I can't read much today! My friend Vera is coming over and we are going into town. Very nice to get out of the house but now I really want to read!

And I fell asleep before I made too much progress, and have too much work to do to get any reading in until later.

It's bitterly cold here, just the kind of day that I'd like to stay in and read.

>15 connie53: My friend called to tell she couldn't come. She felt very sick last night. She thought she had heart problems and of course that's reason enough to go to her GP. And perhaps not very wise to dome over for a visit. Luckily the GP just thought she had stomach problems and to be sure he made an appointment in the hospital for an ultrasound scan next week. She coming on Sunday now if she is feeling good enough to drive. So that left me with a whole day of nothing planned to do. So I read and changed the beds and did some laundry.
I'm on page 390 now. Another chapter about the gods. I don't like those chapters very much, maybe because I can't see the relation to the others lines yet.

>13 ipsoivan: ah yes .. I agree. That was a weird little part in the book that wasn't particularly interesting (to me)... though I suppose it will probably end up playing a role later?

>15 connie53: Hope you have fun w/ your friend - though sorry you have to wait to read more ;)

>16 ipsoivan: I know that feeling! too bad you have too much work to do today to really take advantage of it :(

>17 connie53: oh ho! Well I'm very sorry your friend is not feeling well, but glad you have an opportunity to read!
Yeah... I initially didn't love those parts as much either... but it does continue to develop and I think much much more is yet to come in future books :)

Also... it's not that I've revealed anything crazy with that end-of-book spoiler there.. it's just that it does, technically, include spoiler so I didn't want anything ruined ;)

I'm not going to read any spoilers about parts of the book I did not read yet. That takes away some much of the reading pleasure. But I like to share my thoughts about things that MAY BE. Or things that make me think the story is going this or that way.

>19 connie53: good, I wouldn't either! I completely agree.. I'm keeping my thoughts about what have actually happened in the book to myself (or in spoilers) .. don't worry! :)

I just meant that my end-of-book spoiler wasn't too exciting, per se, so not to get too excited about just reading the spoiler ;)

>20 avanders: I understand what you mean, Ava. But I like the thought of spoilers staying spoilers until I've reached the part where they are revealed. (okay, is that a comprehensible sentence?)

Another little thought of mine. Are the dead children in the Oisterhouse linked to the 30 little yellow monkees in the Threehouse?
And while in the threehouse Renie and !Xabbu passed Orlando and Fredericks. I liked that part.

I'm much more alert reading this book since it's a joined project thing. I'm noticing all these little details and making notes while reading. I'm enjoying that very much.

Ooo, I hadn't thought of that! Nice idea.

I finished up this morning, and immediately downloaded the next in the series -- or so I thought. On the streetcar on the way to work, I realized that it hadn't completely downloaded and I needed a wifi signal. Instead I started reading Knausgard's A Death in the Family, which is wonderful.

It's really cold here, and due to be even colder tomorrow, so I may abandon myself to reading all day. Maybe a bit of Pepys, a bit of Williams, and a bit of Knausgard. Bliss.

>21 connie53: hee hee, completely comprehensible :) And I completely agree!
Re your spoiler thought... my response: wow. I never even considered that - I wonder! There do seem to be some similarities in the way they behave and react to the world ... though didn't their manner of speaking seem different? maybe it's a question of where it is in time...

Yes! I love that cute little interaction ;)
end of book spoiler: I also found it really interesting that we were not always progressing in time from the same point -- i.e., that different lines were starting and ending at completely different places, and then we were finding them resolved in a different part that we weren't expecting. It seems to come more together later in the book, and I wonder if it does more of that in the next 3 books.. I loved that Tad Williams took such liberties with the timelines, though :)

Very cool about how you're reading it differently since it's a joined project :) There's so much in the book that someone could just miss something by flying too quickly through it (as I did with regard to your post 21 spoiler ;))

>22 ipsoivan: Oooh congrats on finishing! Glad you liked it enough to immediately try to download the next in the series!
Mmm, reading all day while it's bristly and cold outside sounds wonderful! ... it's 70 degrees and sunny here today. :-|
(we'll get a little more cold in before the "winter" is over.... ;P)

Finished part 1 and started in part 2 immediately. I just want to know what is going to happen with all my favourite people! I liked part one very much and gave it . I'm still thinking about your spoiler texts, Ava.

Re: the monkeys. I agree with you! They must be different gangs. The monkeys play a much larger role in the book (although a small one). The others are just dead. But you never know.

There is a part in the book where Paul and Gally are in the land of the White and the Red queen (it's called 'Veldland' / Fieldland? ) and I think he is crossing to other lands. But I can't remember reading about every brotherhood member having their own lands.

Starting part 2



Rivier van Blauw Vuur

The translation of River of Blue Fire

Blurb from LT and in spoiler font because of the .....Spoilers!

As River of Blue Fire opens, we join up again with the ragtag bunch of searchers trapped in an astoundingly detailed and frightfully dangerous virtual world known as Otherland. Lurking in disguise someone trying to find information that will help him overthrow his Grail Brotherhood masters. The group follows a ubiquitous river through world after world, unable to go offline, and subject to the increasingly terrifying certainty that things in this supposedly virtual place are all too real. Meanwhile, Paul Jonas, an amnesic (but somehow pivotal) character fleeing from two sinister beings, finds more and more of his memory as he does his own Huck Finn river trip. As in the first novel, each new world that the characters enter, from Paleolithic Ice Age to something suspiciously like Oz, is fully realized and completely unpredictable.

Eeeee (that's a squeal of excitement ;))
So glad you enjoyed so much... and I can't wait to get to the 2nd book now, too! I'm working on a couple others, but I should get there soon'ish :)

>24 connie53: when you say "the others are just dead"....??? You mean Wicket et al.? I wonder if I've just forgotten that or if it was described differently for me.... Maggie, do you remember?

And second When Atasco/Mr. Sellers is explaining "everything" to the little band of people gathered in the Golden City, I believe one of them explains that various different brotherhood members had/developed their own lands... I don't remember if each and every one had their own land though... certainly not if Dread is a brotherhood member (... and I'm not sure if he is?)

>25 connie53: awesome. can't wait.

>25 connie53: ok, you two, I am CLEARLY going to have to get back in gear on this. I took a detour into Knausgard -- amazing, absolutely amazing, but just finished it this morning.

>26 avanders: I think each has their own VR world. I'm a little fuzzy on this right now.

>26 avanders: I was too tired yesterday evening to answer your questions, Ava. But here we go.

Re: the others I meant the kids in de Oisterhouse

Re: the lands I think it was Atasco who told Renie and the others about the lands that were created by (some of?) the brotherhood members.

Ok, I'm back to Williams. At first it was a little hard to renew interesr, and I noticed how overly hard he works to generate tension with fraught dialogue--I'm thinking here of the two scientists Renie and !Xabbu meet, but soon events themselves carried me along. I think it's inevitable in a book seies that is so long that some flaws will be apparent, so I'm not too critical.

There is a good piece of the puzzle that is slotted in in the bug world--no spoilers--but this adds considerably to the complexity of the Otherworld and how the characters understand it.

>29 ipsoivan: Page 107. I think I'm in that part of the book now. With Cullen and Lenore?

>27 ipsoivan: hee hee well that sounds like a great detour! I love when I can describe a book that way :)

>28 connie53: OOooooooooh. Sorry, I completely missed your point, initially ;) And yes! I've been wondering about the dead kids - like, I didn't know if they were part of the sim or players and I wondered what happened to the people who had disappeared from Gally's gang when they tried to cross the river... again, might depend on whether they are sims or players. Very interesting :)

And re your second yes, that makes sense :)

>29 ipsoivan: Hmm, that's good to know that when you've taken a breather, it takes a bit to get back into it. I can see that. With these incredibly involved books, it's nice to have the time to get lost in it :) And yeah, when you're not wrapped up in speeding along to try to find out what next!, things like tension generated by fraught dialogue can be annoying ;) Glad you got carried along again!

Ooh, now I can't wait to get to book 2!

>30 connie53: yes, you're there. I find them tiresome and really don't read this until you finish this sectionI was relieved when they were killed. Or at least I think.

>31 avanders: I'm totally back in, but I'm not sure I'll make it to the end of the full series. I think this guy needs an editor, badly!

>33 ipsoivan: I got an reaction from someone on Goodreads that he thought the series started out real good but got worse with every book. That's not what I hope will happen for me. I guess it's not the same for every reader.

>32 ipsoivan: on page 135: Lenore is killed (I think), Cullen is still alive

Re connie's spoiler: but are they puppets?

>32 ipsoivan: >34 connie53: >35 ipsoivan: Oh no, spoilers I can't click on yet!! ;)

>33 ipsoivan: >34 connie53: interesting.. bummer... and I agree w/ you Connie, hope it doesn't happen to me! And some people love the whole series, so maybe we'll be in that camp ;)

Ok ok, I'm bringing book 2 w/ me to GB... ;)

>35 ipsoivan: Yes, I think so. But I want to know how the groupnames translate into Dutch. You have sims, you have poppen (puppets?) and burgers (citizens?). As far as I understand Cullen and Lenore think they are in a simulation and that they can go back to their own world and off the net. But that doesn't happen. I think Lenore really died and Cullen is (page 177) really hurt. And somewhere in the prologue Paul remembers that the golden jewel said Nothing surrounding you is real, but the things you see can harm or kill you

On page 228: And I'm in a very strange land Orlando and Fredericks are in a Kitchen that is a land on it's own. The inhabitants look like comic book figures and are all kitchen appliances or food. I think the names of the inhabitants are very funny chosen. The first persons they meet is 'Strijkhout' (that translates into matchstick) and his wife Licht Ontvlambaar (Lightly inflammable). They live in a matchbox on the kitchentable. It's funny but it is also a bit out of place in this book.

page 235: Nice detail We are in London in the world that H.G. Wells created in The War of the Worlds.

Just passing by because connie53 told me about this thread. I read these books years ago, and it's fun to read your discussion! I forgot a lot of those details, but some of it is coming back...

>hi Zjak! Nice to see you here!

Hi Connie! *waves* Just sniffing around here...

I always like people sniffing around!

Hello again, back from the end of part 2.

>37 connie53: There is a hint later on that they are, in fact, real scientists, as there are reports in the media of a large number of deaths of entomologists from a particular research group, all, of course, "natural".

As to the names of the characters in the Kitchen, I'm sorry to say that I can't easily locate them in my Kobo, as I'm well past that section and removed it from the kobo before I saw your message. Ava, can you keep an eye out and let connie know when you get there? The man is something like Strikes-Everytime.

>40 zjakkelien: hi, Zjak!

Part 2 has some wonderful bits in it, although I did find the early part dragged somewhat. But then exciting developments occur, especially in the Kitchen, more and more of the threads start to come together, and it ends on quite a satisfying note of moving forward towards answers. I'm still wishing that he had had a more directive editor though!

I'm going to take a brief foray back into Pepys and maybe something short, but I'll be back for part 3.

>44 ipsoivan: Strikes-Everytime sounds good to me. I think it's a slogan that's on a match boxes. The translator probably used a text from Dutch match boxes.
Good to hear that things start to come together. I like that!

Yes, interesting things start to coalesce. I'm being deliberately mysterious--read on...

>46 ipsoivan: Doing just that!

>38 connie53: lol I agree, that's a very interesting land! and ... yes, lighter than the rest of the book. I am very curious to find out what the "creator" of that land was thinking.
(retaining spoilers for those who may come along to this page who haven't yet read the books :))

>39 connie53: Ahhhh I'm there but didn't recognize it right away!

>40 zjakkelien: Hello! & Welcome :) You read all 4? Did you enjoy them? I mean, you must have at least a little if you kept going after the first ;)

>44 ipsoivan: eee! I'm so excited that you're finished. With you 2 ahead of me in this group read, it is somehow pushing me along :) I have actually not had the same experience with, e.g., my RL book group, but seeing all those spoilers that I can't yet click on is so motivating! ;)

>44 ipsoivan: and >45 connie53: yes, I believe that's right, but let me know what other info you need, if any, and if you want me to confirm anything. I don't have the book on me, but I'll check when I get home tonight :)

Overall: So far, I like the 1st book better than the 2nd, but I'm only about a quarter of the way through the 2nd, so we'll see where it goes. I think what I liked about the 1st better was the discovery of everything new. And although the second book has a lot of "new" too, it's almost more wary discovery as opposed to the fresh, almost shocking discoveries in the first. For example, when we first go online and discover how it is treated or when we first go to Otherland, it is all new and shiny. It is all pure creativity. Whereas so far in the second, it is impressive how Williams can continue to build completely different worlds, but the "oh, here's a new world, how will we survive until we go to the next world" aspect of it almost becomes a little repetitive. Nonetheless, it is all very interesting and, as I say, impressive, and I look forward to more development of the actual plot (what is happening with Osiris, Dread, and Mr. Sellers are, at this point, what I see as the primary plot of the series). Also, I note & am very happy about Maggie's comment in >44 ipsoivan: that it picks up in the kitchen, which is JUST where I am right now....

Page 363. I'm now with the detectives investigating a cold-case. Very curious how that fits in the story.

>49 connie53: oh... I think I've been just introduced to them... I was wondering if it had something to do w/ Dread's murders/hobby....??

>50 avanders: That could be! Very good thinking.

>48 avanders: Yes, I liked them, but it's been quite a while, so I don't remember all the details. I read it to the end, and I remember liking the ending. I also remember really liking the first book, where you still have to figure out the world and how the net works and who everyone is and what they are doing online, and so on. But I also experienced this drag that you and ipsoivan describe.

but the "oh, here's a new world, how will we survive until we go to the next world" aspect of it almost becomes a little repetitive.

This sums it up pretty well. At some point it was going from one world to another, and although some of the people they meet do play a role if I remember correctly, a lot of it also felt like filler. I mean, these are four hefty books, I have the feeling some of it could have been cut, and it would have benefited the story. I think you get to know the characters, and they get to know each other, through these adventures, but it's taking awfully long.

The thing that I found attractive was that the worlds and the way programming works feels like magic.

I have a question about the end (so end of book 4), but I guess none of you are there yet. Fortunately we have spoilertags...

I think this whole living eternally thing was accomplished by going online and living there forever somehow (the reasoning of how this works I don't remember. Maybe they just said, well, we kill the body and then the mind lives on. Where I wonder if that was ever decently explained, because that does not seem trivial to me. But anyhow...). And the thing that made the worlds so lifelike and worthwhile to live in, was that they had found this kid who had some telepathic ability and was living in ship in space. But what were they going to do if this kid died? Was he also supposed to live on the net? Or were they going to find someone like him and replace him?

>52 zjakkelien: Well, you have to wait a while, zjak, for the answer. I hope I will remember to read your spoiler.

>52 zjakkelien: Nice to know that it's just a little mini-"slump" in book 2 :) And it was hardly a slump for me, really. I am still quite enjoying it!
I think that's right -- all the "everything" in the books helps us really get to know the characters :) And I agree -- the worlds & the way the programming works is a wonderful aspect of the series!

Oooooh an end-of-series spoiler! It'll take a little while, but we'll get there! ;)
>53 connie53: me too! ;)

As for my progress...
I've just reached the part where Martine is explaining her entire background. Although I found it a little... inorganic (because, as a constant-journaler, I was sure she had already explained this .. to herself... ;)), I appreciated it all the same, and the method really did make sense. I found the whole thing quite fascinating and I wonder what role it plays in the whole books. (Spoiler just for anyone who is reading these books and hasn't yet reached this point) I particularly wondered if her odd "friend" was, in fact, the Other involved in the whole Otherland world. I also wonder if her having be-friended this person will have a very fortunate impact on their experiences in Otherland in the present.

>54 avanders: do you mean the boy in Pestalozzi Instituut? The one she can speak with when she is in the dark room? Hmm.. interesting thought!
I'm on page 384 now and again in Martine's diary. In the previous chapter "an ordinary working day" I came across Felix Jongleur again and he has 4 VR-tanks in his tower, one for him, one for some unnamed person (his brother?) and two for Mudd and Finney. Could they be Finch and Mullet?

>54 avanders: In response to your spoiler, yes, I remember being struck when reading aboutthe friend if it would be significant, but subsequently forgot. Nice speculation.

>55 connie53: and guessing along with you, connie, I wonder if it might be for the bird woman??

>55 connie53: yes, that's exactly what I mean. :)

And re your spoiler, I was thinking the same thing!

>56 ipsoivan: Oooh, also interesting idea...

Page 556: Things are starting to fall together. Very nice. I liked it whenDecatur Ramsey (the lawyer) gets in contact with the little machine that Orlando owns. It's called 'de kruiper' but it could be 'Does' in the English version.

>58 connie53: in the English version, it is called "Beezle", so an obvious pun on "beetle", the insect, which is visually descriptive. You may also know of the use of "beetle" in English in the expressions, "to beetle about" or "busy as a beetle", which both suggest a kind of busy-ness, so I can see where the Dutch translation comes from, as Beezle does things.

And 'Kruiper' is a little thing that crawls around as a beetle does.

>60 connie53: Aha!

Ok, ladies, I just finished book 3, as I was able to read all day since I've come down with a cold. Very exciting, but I still just wanted to get there faster. Does the man have to provide so much detail??

However this book had my favourite world so far, the House, reminiscent in some ways of Gormenghast. Major ending on this one as he ramps up for the denouement, and lots of interesting work pulling the strands together.

>61 ipsoivan: Book 3 finished! Wow, Maggie, very good. And get better soon.

>60 connie53: is kruiper pronounced creeper? If so, that's quite evocative of the little robot.

>62 connie53: thanks. It's not a bad cold, and gave me a lovely lazy day of reading. I'm not sure I'm working today either, as we had a big snowstorm yesterday and the university may be closed. I'm waiting to hear about a cancellation.

If there is no work, I'll finish off The Gift of Stones, a wonderful book by Jim Crace.

No, that's not the way to say ui. I really can't think of a word in English that has that sound. If you really want to know you can always use google translate with the speakers on. That worked for me.

on page 582 of the second book Paul and Gally are in Venice and Gally tells Paul he has been in a dark place in the past and he could hear just one voice. Could he be the unknown boy Martine was talking to while she was in the institute? Or could he be Cho Cho?

Even though I don't remember all the details, it's fun to see all the speculation and who's who!

And I agree with connie, the 'ui' is very specific to dutch, and a lot of people have trouble with it. Especially since we also have 'eu'.

>64 connie53: and >66 zjakkelien: I've now found 2 versions on the internet. One is like a long i, the other more like ow.

>65 connie53: hmm hmmm.... that will be answered at the end of book 3

My sister celebrated her birthday yesterday and I asked my family if they knew a word with the ui sound. They could only think of Cruijff (the soccer player).

>67 ipsoivan: Keeping up the suspension, Maggie! Almost there though. Just 44 pages to go.

>68 connie53: This is the first I found. https://www.howtopronounce.com/dutch/sjef-kruiper/

Who is Sjef Kruiper?

I have no idea! There is one that's an ict-teacher at a college. But he is not a famous person. I think the combination of his first name (that's hard to pronounce too) and his last name that has that ui sound.

Finished part 2. And loved it! I want to continue in part 3 but I have to read a book for my RL bookclub (Zjak is a member there too and she is one of my friends I met through internet)

I am far behind in commenting!
Ok, let's see...
>58 connie53: yes, I also liked that part! And Maggie answered the question :)

>61 ipsoivan: wow, Book 3 done already! I also came down with a cold so finished Book 2, but wasn't able to tear through them as you did! :)
lol yes, he is very detailed ;) Glad to hear that Book 3 is your favorite so far!

>63 ipsoivan: and glad to hear you're not feeling too bad! :)

>65 connie53: Interesting theories! I myself was thinking that Galley/Gypsy was Stephen. I'm not sure the personalities match, though. It was interesting that Galley/Gypsy, Vaala, and Emily appear to be neither citizens nor puppets, so I wondered if that was because some people are not connected to the Net but are still in a coma/in Otherland (e.g., Stephen), or if there's just a different thing altogether. The more I read, the more I was thinking the latter.

>67 ipsoivan: glad it's answered at the end of book 3! ;)

>71 connie53: yay! I also finished Book 2 yesterday! I just barely started in on Book 3, maybe 10-15 pages in. :)
It's fair to read other books though ;) I have one from the library I'd like to read - the 3rd in a trilogy. We'll see what happens when I have reading time again (hopefully sometime this weekend!)

And final thoughts:
After reading Book 2, I theorize that !Xabbu may be more than he appears.. he said "we need you" to Renie in a way that seemed to indicate a lot more than just the little band of Sellers' misfits.. perhaps he is more involved with the Circle than he let on? Or with another group that is secretly trying to undermine the Brotherhood?
Also, I thought it was interesting that Sweet William hid so his "other name" would not be divulged by the Lost, but that Quan Li's information did not betray Dread's secret.
I also thought it was very very careless of Dread to take his killing to Otherland, where it will surely start to get the attention of the Brotherhood... even if they are not as "all-knowing" about their worlds as they could be, it seems that if a bunch of murders start cropping up, they'll talk and Osiris will immediately recognize his little protege's habits. Sloppy.
I expected !Xabbu to somehow trick Dread into leaving the land w/o the lighter.. was surprised when they actually gave it up. But I'm sure their saving Emily will have some repercussions as we go on...
And I'm more and more intrigued about Paul Jonas -- as he wonders why they don't just kill him, so do I. Obviously he is the center of the Grail Project, but I begin to wonder why they couldn't just set up someone else to do what he was supposed to, since it clearly went horribly wrong with Jonas. And then they could exterminate him. Pretty easily, I would think. So he's clearly special in some way....
I also am VERY curious what is going to happen with Dorothy... like, can a citizen on partial-citizen conception create anything? Is it sort of like Neo? Like, baby born within sim world will save all?
These are just a bunch of thoughts I'm having :)

>72 avanders: but they are very good thoughts. I never gave any thought to why !Xabbu might be there. But I think he has a role to play, perhaps by keeping Renie from getting hopeless and giving up. Your idea sounds very good too.
Re: Quan Li vs. Sweet William. I immediately thought about that incident with the Lost. So I ruled Quan Li out as being the sim of Dread. How wrong was I!!

Re: I like Paul very much. I'm always glad when I get to a part of the book where he is in. I think he is protected by Vaala and her group and he is more important or maybe has skills or knowledge to save the children.

Re: Dorothy as some kind of Jesus! Yes. That might be it.

Re: Gally. I want him to come back!

Hi to you both. Really interesting comments and speculation. Some of what you are wondering about I can confirm is answered in book 3, but I think that as well, some of your thoughts may be confirmed in the final book, as there are so many loose ends still to tie up.

I am also taking a break. I bought the previos 3, but the local library has just added the series to their e-book selection, so I'm on the waitlist for book 4.

I'm really happy to take a break and get back in sync with you both.

>73 connie53: You might be right about !Xabbu's role .. it certainly fits with what they've done so far!
Yes, I like Paul & his story line very much too.. and I think you're right about his having an important role/knowledge.
And I agree re Galley too... he should come back!

>74 ipsoivan: Well then it was a fortuitous thing that you're waitlisted ;)
It's nice reading such a big, full, involved, and complicated series with other people! I really enjoy being able to discuss theories and favorite characters/plots while I'm reading it! :)

>75 avanders: I agree with you, this project is really nice to do together. I'm more focused on reading these books and pay much more attention to details.

>76 connie53: :)

Also, I'm about 100 pages into the 3rd now... quite good! I thought about reading something else, but I just didn't want to yet.... ;)

>77 avanders: part 3 is really calling out to me. It's on my left hand somewhere in a little cabinet/sidetable and staring at me!

Lol I can see that that's true! ;)

Yes, there it is!

I've started in Berg van Zwart Glas by Tad Williams. Yeah!!!!



An epidemic of comatose children has led Renie and her San friend !Xabbu into the net and to a series of dream worlds created as palaces by the corrupt aspiring immortals, the Grail Brotherhood. Two of those children, Orlando and Fredericks, have become adventurers in their own right, while their parents' lawyer Ramsey follows real-world money and lesbian cop Calliope tracks a serial killer with serious ambitions to become an angry god. In this volume, adventures take place in a mythic ancient Egypt and a rambling Gormenghastlike house before all the virtual adventurers meet where they were always destined to, before the walls of Troy.

wooo hooo!

>81 connie53: quoting my self now. But I noticed in my blurb !Xabbu is a San! What is a San? In my book he is a Bushman (Bosjesman). Is that the same thing? Are his people called the San in English?

>83 connie53: According to Wikipedia, "San" = "Bushmen". Here is what they say:

Various terms—including San, Bushmen and Basarwa—have been used to refer to them collectively. Each of these terms has a problematic history, as they have been used by others to refer to them, often with pejorative connotations.1315 In the 1970s, many Western anthropologists adopted the term San (or Saan) to refer to the people collectively, although some later switched back to the term Bushmen.216 Historically San was a derogatory term meaning "foragers" (saa "picking up from the ground" + plural -n in the Haiǁom dialect), applied to them by pastoralist Khoikhoi rivals.17 The term became associated with people without cattle or people who stole cattle, and is still an ethnic slur in the central Kalahari.111819 The term Bushmen is still widely used by others and to self-identify;11131519 however, opinions vary on whether it is appropriate as it is sometimes viewed as pejorative.12182021

Glad that you are on #3. I'm still waiting for my copy of #4 to be available from the library, but I have plenty of other TBRs to keep me busy ;)

>84 ipsoivan: Thanks for the explanation, Maggie. I never thought about searching Wikipedia. Very clever.

I'm at page 127 now, thanks to the sunny weather and springlike temperatures. I've been in the garden reading most of the afternoon. I'm so glad I'm back with all the familiar people again.

Teeming down rain here today, which is fine by me. I'm working in the writing/tutoring centre today, and students are staying away because of the weather. Get a little quiet time, and paid for it too!

Enjoy your sun and reading.

>87 ipsoivan: And I did enjoy it. But I did something rather stupid. I skipped a whole chapter by accident (an Orlando-Fredericks where they meet Bonnie Mae). I must have misplaced my bookmark and I only found out when I reached the next O&F chapter and could not follow the story.

But I'm on track now on page 181.

Renie, !Xabbu and the others are in an enormous house with lots of halls.

Here are questions and remarks

Long Joseph Sulaweyo is trying to visit his son in the hospital but is abducted by Del Ray Chiume (Renie's ex) but they start talking instead and Del tells Joseph that his live is in pieces because of men searching for Martine. Did I miss something? Or is that not explained yet?

Martine writes in her diary that she realises every simulation is made after a book, legend or myth. Of course there is Odysseus Story, The wizard of oz and The War of the Worlds. Did we recognize others?

>88 connie53: that's a fun chapter--glad you didn't miss it after all. She's a great character.

>89 connie53: Well, we know of Xanadu now too. The Kitchen really puzzles me. It seems like it could be taken from a surreal old comic like Little Nemo.

There are references later to the Mars episode and how it seems to be taken from an old adventure book. I think, since most of the cabal (sorry, I can't at the moment remember what they call themselves), are unusually old men, that a lot of references will be to things that my parents' generation might have read.

You mean the people of the Grail movement? That could be the case.

Here a quote from wiki

His proposed ability to immerse oneself fully in a simulation gives him a great deal of artistic freedom, and the story winds through alternate interpretations of many classical literary works such as Through the Looking-Glass, The Odyssey and The Iliad, The War of the Worlds, and The Wizard of Oz, which are available as entertainment simulations within the series. Orlando Gardiner, one of the main characters in the books, spent most of his teenage years in this world's equivalent to MMORPGs based upon J. R. R. Tolkien's fiction. The overall series's events also bear a strong resemblance to The Lord of the Rings.

I found a short story about Orlando en Fredericks in my copy of Legends II. That's a collection of short stories by Famous Writers

You can find the information here and other things about Otherland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherland

>86 connie53: >87 ipsoivan: both of your weather-days sounds lovely to me.... though I am partial to LOTS of rain! ;)

>88 connie53: Ha that's funny that you managed to miss a chapter ;)
That's an interesting part of the book.. I think I'm just under a third of the way through at this point.. it's hard to track page numbers bc my version was spread out somehow..

>89 connie53: I think the men are searching for Renie and Martine because they were somehow aware (probably through tracing-type technology) that Renie had been in touch with Martine right before they both probably appeared to disappear... Is that what you were confused about?
As for Martine's reference to more and more appearing to be references to literature.. I don't think that ALL of the worlds are, but perhaps most or all of the ones Martine had so far been in were? I thought at some point someone explained that Osiris'/Jungleur's worlds tended to be because that was his personal interest? But maybe we're just not recognizing some :)

>90 ipsoivan: Yeah, it's definitely possible I just didn't recognize them ;)

>92 connie53: interesting! & Thanks for the info & Links.. I think I recognized all of the identified stories (and the characters seemed to recognize them too, eventually), but didn't recognize all the worlds as being necessarily based on something..?

I just heard there is a world, named Kalevala

Half way through book 3! Yeah.

>94 connie53: oh interesting - I don't know that book :)

Woo hoo! Congrats!

Ok, you two, i'm part way through Book 4. There are lots of things that are starting to become clear that we've been wondering about--the focus on children, the backstory of Mr. Sellars, etc. It's quite gripping.

I'm nearing the end of book 3. My reading time is slowing down a bit, because I'm working more hours each week. But I try to read 50 pages a day and I'm sure I will finish it this month.
I feel everything is coming together now. And besides reading the book I'm reading a lot about the Ilias and Odysseus. Just googling some of the names takes me to a lot of interesting story's about Greek Mythology.

Everybody is in Troje now

page 663/697. Almost finished part 3 and all of a sudden there was your name in the book, Ava!

>98 connie53: So THAT'S why she's reading it!

On a similar note, one of the "news" items that begins each chapter in book 4 mentions a street just a couple of blocks from me, Coxwell Ave. in Toronto. I believe it is the site of a hit-and-run accident that kills a famous rapper or something. Quite funny, as it's not exactly the busiest of streets.

>99 ipsoivan: Funny when that happens, Maggie. Not the accident of course but when a familiar name or street or city gets mentioned. I will keep my eyes open for the item with 'your street' in it. I know there is a 'Paul' is this book, but I know several Paul's I only know one Ava though.

I finished part 3 a few hours ago and started number 4 immediately. Book 3 gets an 8,5. I think it could have been 50 or so pages shorter.
Part 4 is 960 pages! I will be busy for a long time in that one.

connie and Ava -- I just finished the series. Overall, I really am happy that Ava lured me in with her description -- or was it you, connie? Whoever, I'm grateful.

Again, not a peep of a spoiler; I'll only say that all wraps up in a very satisfying way.

>96 ipsoivan: I'm very excited to get back! But I need a little break... RL is chaotic.

>98 connie53: Oh very cool! :D

>99 ipsoivan: lol exactly.... ;)
very interesting! I love reading about places I know ;)

>101 ipsoivan: so glad to hear it!! :)

Yes, when life calms down is time enough to get back to the series. I only managed to get done because of catching a vicious flu that kept me off work for a week.

I hope the flue has passed, Maggie!

I'm on page 145 in part 4 now, but I won't be reading much this weekend. I'm going to stay over at my friend Vera for two nights, leaving tomorrow. And tomorrow is the first of April so another monthly challenge with my RL bookclub is due. We will see what it is and if I have a book that fits the challenge I will take that with me in the train to Vera. Whatever the book is, it will be smaller than part 4 and more easy to put in my handbag.

Have a good visit. Book 4 can certainly wait!

>103 ipsoivan: ugh - flu is no fun! But it's nice to be able to have some reading time :) Hope you're feeling much better!

>104 connie53: and hope you enjoyed your visit with your friend :)

>105 ipsoivan: >106 avanders: My visit was really fun. We shopped (1 jeans, 1 pair of sandals, some underwear, 2 books). We went out for dinner and that was delicious with lots of grilled forgotten vegetables (do you no that term) and lamb meat. We spend the evenings talking and drinking some wine.

So I'm back to number 4 again. page 257 so far.

Sounds like a great visit!
Forgotten Vegetables? Nope - don't know that term... I mean, I understand the words, but I've never heard of forgotten vegetables! What kind of veggies are they?

Is this heirloom veggies?

they are vegetables that were used a lot in the past, but in these days they are not used very much any more. Like fennel, parsnip and some beets and potatoes.

Interesting - sounds like a wonderful dinner!

And I finished book 4! Yeah! I gave it **** stars. It could have been ****1/2 but I thought it was 100 pages too long. There is one novella in the same world in one of the anthologies I have. I will read that in the near future, maybe in the summer break. For now I'm going to read some totally different books.

Yay! Congratulations! And yes to totally different!

>112 connie53: Yeah!! Congrats on finishing!! I will have to find that novella .. Do either of you know what it's called?
I read a few more pages of book 3, but I'm not recommitting until I get through the pile o' library books in the house (ones I am very excited about ;)) -- so probably next month!
Can't wait! :)

>114 avanders: Take your time. That book isn't going anywhere...

true :)

It's De gelukkigste dode jongen van de hele wereld = The luckiest (most lucky?) dead boy in the whole world. I don't know if it's available in English.

Yes it is! But only in an anthology.

This is what I've found on his own website;

Novelette: “The Happiest Dead Boy in the World” (Legends II, ed. by Robert Silverberg, 2004)

Oooooh what an intriguing title! Having finished the series, do you know what it means already?

Thanks for the research! :)

Okay - can get the magazine w/ the short story on Amazon for $3.99 :)

For anyone seeking an english version, see http://www.amazon.com/Lightspeed-Magazine-February-2013-ebook/dp/B00B93BGFK and http://www.tadwilliams.com/2013/04/short-work-new-and-forthcoming/#happiest (scroll down a little more than halfway)

You did some researching too, Ava!

Ok I'm back in.... I'm on page 536 of my 924-page version and it's picked back up again :) let's see... 2 of the groups have made it to Troy.. AMd the others all know about it now. Martine is still with Dread.. and the others in the big house are about to go searching for her again. Aaand we just got a hint about the phones that are constantly plaguing Jeremiah.

After having taken a nearly 2-month break, I'm kind of surprised I held onto the threads as well as I did! Okay.... Just a few hundred more pages... ;p

I loved the big house episodes. Kind of Gormenghast, if you've read Mervyn Peake.

Good to see you are back in, Ava!

I need to get to Mervyn Peake some day soon.

>122 ipsoivan: ooooooh, I've not yet read that!!! Argh, I wish I had read it already. But I will get to it someday.. I have .. I think the 1st one in that trilogy on my shelves?

>123 connie53: yay!

AND I've FINISHED BOOK 3!! Phew! And it sure did get really interesting at the end, there! I even started Book 4 already, though I am also trying to get a couple others read in the meantime...

Hope to finish by the end of June!

Oh I put this on my thread, but I'm posting it here too as relevant thoughts/questions from Book 3.
All in spoiler since any discussion of the plot of book 3 would be spoiler. :)

I absolutely love the developing personality of the Other. It is interesting how child-like he seems and I get the feeling that he is protecting the children that have been taken hostage, even if he needs them to operate.

I also am very interested in the developing relationship between Dread and Dulcie Anwin... and the developing case that Calliope is working through. I love that it is culminating in Sydney.

I am pleased that Jacoubian and Wells' stories developed the way they did... even in the apparent death of Jacoubian. And it's sooooo interesting that the ceremony didn't work for any of the brotherhood except partially for the one guy (whose name is evading me right now). BUT I wonder if the brotherhood may actually somehow be revived at some point in book 4 --- after all, they are, at this point, "merely code" anyway.

There is definitely more to !Xabbu than meets the eye.. his response was interesting when Renie said he was back in his real form (or however she phrased that)... and he didn't respond as expected.

Ooooh, and I loved who Emily was. But 2 questions remain at this point... if one of her other selves killed her... why was the baby she may have been carrying such a central point of her character for so long? Maybe something will develop where the presence of the baby was crucial... And the 2nd question is ... Dread said he "left something behind" with Martine when he was killed (when in Quan Li's body).... I don't think we know what that is yet... If so, I completely missed it!

Mmmmm... that's all for now. :)

>125 avanders: Great, You finished part 3! On to 4.