A step as big as is possible now in the Church?
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1richardbsmith
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pope-says-church-should-ask-forgiveness-from...
This was encouraging, I think.
A larger step would require rejecting Church teachings and some explicit scripture.
I think this larger step is needed, and indeed is coming. If the Church wants reconciliation that might come from forgiveness, then inclusion not just avoiding hurtful treatment.
Some of the language remains troubling, and inaccurate, I think.
In the ECUSA, we seem to have worked our way around certain scriptures, but perhaps without specifically stating them to be in error, or at least cultural norms that can be modified in the face of new knowledge and insights.
This was encouraging, I think.
A larger step would require rejecting Church teachings and some explicit scripture.
I think this larger step is needed, and indeed is coming. If the Church wants reconciliation that might come from forgiveness, then inclusion not just avoiding hurtful treatment.
Some of the language remains troubling, and inaccurate, I think.
In the ECUSA, we seem to have worked our way around certain scriptures, but perhaps without specifically stating them to be in error, or at least cultural norms that can be modified in the face of new knowledge and insights.
2pmackey
I think I'm missing your point.
If you're saying that our understanding of scripture should grow and evolve with open and honest hearts on our part and enlightened by the Holy Spirit... I could agree with that.
However, I disagree vigorously that we should "reject" explicit scripture. Christians don't get to pick and choose which verses we like and those we don't. If so, you might as well toss the entire Bible out.
It's all in the Bible, warts and all. There are verses endorsing slavery and killing babies.... We don't get to reject them, but must understand them in light of God meeting humanity where it was at the time and where it's going. We must understand, too, that believers are on a journey to discover God better and live our faith authentically.
Matters of faith must be based on Scripture where it's clear. When unclear we must then employ reason (as in common sense) and tradition (when the way isn't clear). Once upon a time, Christians believed the sun and planets orbited earth. We believed that creation happened in literally seven days. As our knowledge has grown, so have we had to make necessary adjustments in our understanding of Scripture.
Finally, re homosexuality... yes, I know what the Bible says. I know some people think it's clear cut and others don't. I personally will leave it to God to sort out because homosexuality is NOT a matter of faith, like the incarnation, or the death and resurrection of Jesus. All I know is that the Bible also says, "Love covers a multitude of sins..." and "Now we see through a glass darkly..." and "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone...." So love everyone (by the grace of God) and pray and work to be faithful to Christ.
If you're saying that our understanding of scripture should grow and evolve with open and honest hearts on our part and enlightened by the Holy Spirit... I could agree with that.
However, I disagree vigorously that we should "reject" explicit scripture. Christians don't get to pick and choose which verses we like and those we don't. If so, you might as well toss the entire Bible out.
It's all in the Bible, warts and all. There are verses endorsing slavery and killing babies.... We don't get to reject them, but must understand them in light of God meeting humanity where it was at the time and where it's going. We must understand, too, that believers are on a journey to discover God better and live our faith authentically.
Matters of faith must be based on Scripture where it's clear. When unclear we must then employ reason (as in common sense) and tradition (when the way isn't clear). Once upon a time, Christians believed the sun and planets orbited earth. We believed that creation happened in literally seven days. As our knowledge has grown, so have we had to make necessary adjustments in our understanding of Scripture.
Finally, re homosexuality... yes, I know what the Bible says. I know some people think it's clear cut and others don't. I personally will leave it to God to sort out because homosexuality is NOT a matter of faith, like the incarnation, or the death and resurrection of Jesus. All I know is that the Bible also says, "Love covers a multitude of sins..." and "Now we see through a glass darkly..." and "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone...." So love everyone (by the grace of God) and pray and work to be faithful to Christ.
3richardbsmith
The Pope asks for forgiveness from multiple groups, gays included.
In his comments he describes homosexuality as a condition. That having the homosexual condition is not a sin. Acting on the condition is apparently a sin, and one which the Pope asks gays to avoid.
We cannot leave the degree of acceptance of gays to God.
It is up to us to treat others as we will.
And there is plenty mistaken about the Creation than just the number of days involved. So while plenty of Christians hold the 7 day Creation, most do not. We have found error in scripture wrt the 7 day creation.
I think as well we have found error wrt homosexuality.
And I think we should admit that error much quicker than we forgave Galileo.
In his comments he describes homosexuality as a condition. That having the homosexual condition is not a sin. Acting on the condition is apparently a sin, and one which the Pope asks gays to avoid.
We cannot leave the degree of acceptance of gays to God.
It is up to us to treat others as we will.
And there is plenty mistaken about the Creation than just the number of days involved. So while plenty of Christians hold the 7 day Creation, most do not. We have found error in scripture wrt the 7 day creation.
I think as well we have found error wrt homosexuality.
And I think we should admit that error much quicker than we forgave Galileo.
4John5918
>2 pmackey: Matters of faith must be based on Scripture where it's clear. When unclear we must then employ reason (as in common sense) and tradition (when the way isn't clear)
And above all, we must employ charity.
>3 richardbsmith: We have found error in scripture wrt the 7 day creation.
No, we haven't. There is no error in scripture if we read it as scripture. There is only error if we read it as a science textbook, or indeed a history textbook. Or to put it another way, there is error in our understanding of scripture. Or perhaps immaturity would be a better word; as >2 pmackey: says, we are on a journey of understanding, and we understand more now than we did in the early stages of that journey, and less than we will at a later stage.
And above all, we must employ charity.
>3 richardbsmith: We have found error in scripture wrt the 7 day creation.
No, we haven't. There is no error in scripture if we read it as scripture. There is only error if we read it as a science textbook, or indeed a history textbook. Or to put it another way, there is error in our understanding of scripture. Or perhaps immaturity would be a better word; as >2 pmackey: says, we are on a journey of understanding, and we understand more now than we did in the early stages of that journey, and less than we will at a later stage.
5richardbsmith
The Pope calls homosexuality a condition upon which to act is to sin.
Paul calls homosexuality an abomination.
Help me with my immaturity.
Paul calls homosexuality an abomination.
Help me with my immaturity.
7southernbooklady
>4 John5918: Or to put it another way, there is error in our understanding of scripture. Or perhaps immaturity would be a better word
I expect the only way to resolve the issue for the Church is to re-evaluate its stance on sexual relations. At the moment, the one true purpose of sex is procreation, and most of the restrictions are built around the needs of securing the stability of the family, the building block of all social order.
But sex in the age of easy access to contraception is no longer the same kind of threat to that social order. And we live in an era where "family" has an increasingly varied look to it. There are single parent households, same-sex households, extended family households, and even polygamous households. None of which threaten to destabilize the social order and many of which offer alternatives to situations where traditional nuclear family groups are unsuited.
But I think the Church -- at least, the Roman Catholic Church -- is only just now coming around to acknowledging how different society is from St. Augustine's day. It is, shall we say, "immature" in its understanding of the modern family dynamic, or what constitutes healthy sexual relations.
I expect the only way to resolve the issue for the Church is to re-evaluate its stance on sexual relations. At the moment, the one true purpose of sex is procreation, and most of the restrictions are built around the needs of securing the stability of the family, the building block of all social order.
But sex in the age of easy access to contraception is no longer the same kind of threat to that social order. And we live in an era where "family" has an increasingly varied look to it. There are single parent households, same-sex households, extended family households, and even polygamous households. None of which threaten to destabilize the social order and many of which offer alternatives to situations where traditional nuclear family groups are unsuited.
But I think the Church -- at least, the Roman Catholic Church -- is only just now coming around to acknowledging how different society is from St. Augustine's day. It is, shall we say, "immature" in its understanding of the modern family dynamic, or what constitutes healthy sexual relations.
9pmackey
We Christians get hung up on particular "sins". I note with shame some Christians who denounce homosexuality (why do they always get airtime?) while remaining quiet on heterosexual fornication, adultery or greed. Granted that any sweeping statement like this has many exceptions. But regarding Christians denouncing homosexuality in particular, I was flabbergasted to note some of the "talking heads" on TV sounding so smug, sanctimonious, and so proud of themselves for taking a stand (hello, Westboro). Pride will send you to hell as quickly as Lust. I take my guidance from verses like this.
"Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love." Ephesians 4:15-16 (From BibleGateway.com)
If one disagrees with something, then speak up, but do it in a spirit of love and humility. That's the way I want to be treated when my sins (real or in the eye of the beholder) are brought up!
"Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love." Ephesians 4:15-16 (From BibleGateway.com)
If one disagrees with something, then speak up, but do it in a spirit of love and humility. That's the way I want to be treated when my sins (real or in the eye of the beholder) are brought up!
10southernbooklady
It seems to me that if we regard "lust" not as "excessive sexual desire" but as sexual desire that dismisses the humanity of our partner(s!) -- that objectifies them in order to satisfy our sexual urges -- we could get a little further in creating a morality of sex that is based on respect, love, consent, and honesty. And this, in turn, would only bode well for the health of the sexual relationships we form.
11pmackey
>10 southernbooklady: I agree. Sexual desire is a gift from God and as with every gift from God, it is steeped in "respect, love, consent and honesty." Sadly, we have proven time and again humanity's' ability to twist and misuse every good gift. It is the dark side of the power of choice.
I am pained by how out of tune western society is from the ideal. We're hedonistic. We want our pleasure/gratification and we want it NOW. But by grabbing all we can, we ignore the damage we do to our neighbors resulting in abuse, pollution, poverty.
You've really struck a key point: If we used the principles you mentioned, respect, love, consent, and honesty, society would be a much better place.
I am pained by how out of tune western society is from the ideal. We're hedonistic. We want our pleasure/gratification and we want it NOW. But by grabbing all we can, we ignore the damage we do to our neighbors resulting in abuse, pollution, poverty.
You've really struck a key point: If we used the principles you mentioned, respect, love, consent, and honesty, society would be a much better place.
