Group read: The Semi-Attached Couple
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2lyzard
Hello, all! Welcome to our group read of the novels of Emily Eden: the next step - or rather, steps - in the Virago Chronological Read Project
Although they are often reissued in omnibus form, and despite their linked titles, The Semi-Attached Couple and The Semi-Detached House are in fact two unrelated works of fiction.
For this reason, I intend to set up two different threads for this group read: please post your comments in the appropriate place.
The Semi-Attached Couple is the longer of the two novels at 48 chapters; while The Semi-Detached House has only 23 chapters. I would like to aim for a minimum of three chapters per day.
As always, I strongly suggest leaving any introductory material in your edition(s) to the end of the read, in order to avoid spoilers.
Group reads always work better with plenty of discussion, so please do post any questions or comments here. When posting, please indicate in bold which chapter you are referring to.
For those who cannot access a print copy of the two novels, there is a Kindle edition containing both; while the two books are available separately at ManyBooks. Audio versions are also available through LibriVox.
Although they are often reissued in omnibus form, and despite their linked titles, The Semi-Attached Couple and The Semi-Detached House are in fact two unrelated works of fiction.
For this reason, I intend to set up two different threads for this group read: please post your comments in the appropriate place.
The Semi-Attached Couple is the longer of the two novels at 48 chapters; while The Semi-Detached House has only 23 chapters. I would like to aim for a minimum of three chapters per day.
As always, I strongly suggest leaving any introductory material in your edition(s) to the end of the read, in order to avoid spoilers.
Group reads always work better with plenty of discussion, so please do post any questions or comments here. When posting, please indicate in bold which chapter you are referring to.
For those who cannot access a print copy of the two novels, there is a Kindle edition containing both; while the two books are available separately at ManyBooks. Audio versions are also available through LibriVox.
3lyzard
Emily Eden was born in 1797, one of the fourteen children of the first Lord Auckland and his wife, Eleanor. Raised in wealthy and privileged circumstances, Eden never married, apparently by choice. Instead, she chose to accompany her brother, George (later Baron Auckland, and then the Earl of Auckland), to India: George Eden served as Governor-General from 1835 - 1842, during which time Emily acted as his hostess.
During her time in India, Emily Eden travelled extensively and wrote about her experiences: these writings were later collected and published in 1867 as Up The Country: Letters Written to Her Sister from the Upper Provinces of India (and have also been reissued by Virago, as Up The Country: Letters From India). Eden is also acclaimed for the paintings she completed while in India, which offer another perspective upon the country, its people, and the British viewpoint. A lithographic reproduction of Eden's work was released in book form in 1844, under the title Portraits of the People and Princes of India. (A copy of this sold at Christie's in 2010 for more than £55,000!)
Emily Eden's personal letters were also published, in 1919, by her great-niece Violet Dickinson, under the simple title Miss Eden's Letters; they are considered a valuable resource for their insight into the public, private and political lives of the British aristocracy in the 19th century.
Eden wrote some poetry, and also two works of fiction. The first, The Semi-Attached Couple, was written in 1830, before her departure for India, but not published at that time. In 1859 she published, anonymously at first, her second novel, The Semi-Detached House; its success encouraged her both to reveal her authorship, and to resurrect her earlier manuscript: The Semi-Attached Couple was published in 1860.
Though they first appeared as separate works, it quickly became a standard practice for publishers to reissue the two novels as a set or an omnibus: something which tends to give new readers a misleading idea about them; as indeed they might have a misleading idea from the relentless (if not wholly inaccurate) comparisons with the works of Jane Austen.
Eden was a great admirer of Austen, and obviously influenced by her: her novels too are sharply observed and somewhat satirical portraits of her society. However, Eden's works are separated by generations from Austen's, and also reflect a different sphere in society. Austen was a member of the landed gentry, writing during the late Georgian / early Regency period; Eden was a member of the aristocracy, writing first during the odd "black hole" period between the Regency and the early Victorian era, and then in the midst of Victorian England. Despite their superficial resemblance, the two women's novels describe very different worlds, both personally and historically.
The other significant difference here is between Eden's two novels themselves. Though it was published in 1860, The Semi-Attached Couple describes the England that existed before the two great "divides" of the 19th century, the passing of the First Reform Bill in 1832, and the coming of the railways. The Semi-Detached House, conversely, is a true Victorian novel, written at what historians now view as the very peak of Victorianism.
For all these reasons, I have decided to break this group read of the Virago omnibus edition into two.
5lyzard
While there is no hurry about starting, please check in if you intend to participate (or lurk) in this group read!
6souloftherose
I'm in - I have the two as separate ebooks from manybooks - no kindle edition is available from Amazon UK.
Any thoughts on which to read first? I'm thinking Semi-Attached Couple as it was written first?
Any thoughts on which to read first? I'm thinking Semi-Attached Couple as it was written first?
7CDVicarage
I have kindle and audio versions of both ready. I shall also start with The Semi-Attached Couple - this is a chronological read project!
8lyzard
Oh, yes! - I certainly meant this one to be read first; that's why I put the introduction here.
Said everything but that, I guess! :D
Said everything but that, I guess! :D
9lauralkeet
I'm in! I have the VMC edition. I need to find it (all of our books are still in boxes from moving house), but fortunately I boxed my VMCs alphabetically by author and meticulously labeled each box. As you do.
10souloftherose
I've taken advantage of my last day of leave before returning to work (*sob*) to read the first three chapters. I had a couple of comments on chapter 1:
1. '"Ah; that pony carriage; that is so like her nonsense. Pony carriages are the fashion, and she has taken to drive. I should not be the least surprised any day to hear that she had broken her neck. Why cannot she go out in her britzska, and be driven by her coachman?'
It doesn't matter how many books I read from the 19th century - I can never remember the details of the different carriages.
Wikipedia has a helpful description of a britzska (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britzka). I assume the point of this comment is that Lady Eskdale is being fashionable by using a pony carriage (which she is driving herself) and therefore causing Mrs Douglas jealousy?
2. 'This period of reclining boards and dumb-bells was the most flourishing age of the Eskdale and Douglas friendship.'
Something to do with trying to get the young ladies backs to grow straight? Doesn't sound very pleasant for them.
3. 'Lord Teviot, the great parti of the year, with five country houses-being four more than he could live in; with 120,000l. a year-being 30,000l. less than he could spend; with diamonds that had been collected by the ten last generations of Teviots, and a yacht that had been built by himself, with the rank of a marquess, and the good looks of the poorest of younger brothers-what could he want but a wife?'
This really reminded me of the opening line of Pride and Prejudice (I would guess intentionally as Emily Eden was a fan of Austen): “It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife”.
1. '"Ah; that pony carriage; that is so like her nonsense. Pony carriages are the fashion, and she has taken to drive. I should not be the least surprised any day to hear that she had broken her neck. Why cannot she go out in her britzska, and be driven by her coachman?'
It doesn't matter how many books I read from the 19th century - I can never remember the details of the different carriages.
Wikipedia has a helpful description of a britzska (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britzka). I assume the point of this comment is that Lady Eskdale is being fashionable by using a pony carriage (which she is driving herself) and therefore causing Mrs Douglas jealousy?
2. 'This period of reclining boards and dumb-bells was the most flourishing age of the Eskdale and Douglas friendship.'
Something to do with trying to get the young ladies backs to grow straight? Doesn't sound very pleasant for them.
3. 'Lord Teviot, the great parti of the year, with five country houses-being four more than he could live in; with 120,000l. a year-being 30,000l. less than he could spend; with diamonds that had been collected by the ten last generations of Teviots, and a yacht that had been built by himself, with the rank of a marquess, and the good looks of the poorest of younger brothers-what could he want but a wife?'
This really reminded me of the opening line of Pride and Prejudice (I would guess intentionally as Emily Eden was a fan of Austen): “It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife”.
11kac522
I'm in. I have the edition pictured in >1 lyzard:, published 1979.
13lyzard
>10 souloftherose:
Actual questions!! - bless you, my dear! :D
Chapter 1
1. A britzska was a strange sort of carriage---long-bodied, with a folding hood, and with space for all sorts of conveniences, including (if you wanted) a folding bed or couch, so that the passenger could lie down on a long or night-time journey.
I suppose it was the contemporary equivalent of those private compartments on first-class fights.
and therefore causing Mrs Douglas jealousy?
When you know Mrs Douglas a bit better you will realise that whatever someone is doing, it's the wrong thing. :D
So in this case, if Lady Eskdale was being driven in a britzska, Mrs Douglas would probably sneer at her for not being fashionable enough to drive a pony-carriage.
2. Formal exercise for girls became increasingly accepted over the 19th century, although always in conflict with 19th century clothing. Calisthenics including the use of dumb-bells were the most popular compromise.
A reclining-board was a moulded body-support, often used by invalids or as massage-tables, but also used in some forms of exercise to avoid (it was believed) undue strain on the spine.
There was conflict going on at this time between prevailing ideas about swaddling for babies and enforced posture by strapping children into various devices, and forbidding them from using the backs of chairs, etc., and new concerns about the proper development of the spine. The mention of reclining-boards suggests that the latter was gaining precedence. (Although perhaps more with respect to the appropriate posture for "young ladies" than as an actual health issue, as these passages about the Beaufort and Douglas girls suggest. And strapping girls to something for their posture persisted into the early 20th century.)
3. Pride And Prejudice is explicitly referenced later, so yes, certainly! That description reads to me like an expanded itemisation of Austen's summation of "a single man in possession of a good fortune"...letting us know exactly what was included under the heading of "a good fortune" (at least in aristocratic circles).
The opening-chapter exchange between Mrs and Mrs Douglas, and the descriptions of the two, are also very like the introduction of Mr and Mrs Bennet, though the characters themselves are quite different.
Actual questions!! - bless you, my dear! :D
Chapter 1
1. A britzska was a strange sort of carriage---long-bodied, with a folding hood, and with space for all sorts of conveniences, including (if you wanted) a folding bed or couch, so that the passenger could lie down on a long or night-time journey.
I suppose it was the contemporary equivalent of those private compartments on first-class fights.
and therefore causing Mrs Douglas jealousy?
When you know Mrs Douglas a bit better you will realise that whatever someone is doing, it's the wrong thing. :D
So in this case, if Lady Eskdale was being driven in a britzska, Mrs Douglas would probably sneer at her for not being fashionable enough to drive a pony-carriage.
2. Formal exercise for girls became increasingly accepted over the 19th century, although always in conflict with 19th century clothing. Calisthenics including the use of dumb-bells were the most popular compromise.
A reclining-board was a moulded body-support, often used by invalids or as massage-tables, but also used in some forms of exercise to avoid (it was believed) undue strain on the spine.
There was conflict going on at this time between prevailing ideas about swaddling for babies and enforced posture by strapping children into various devices, and forbidding them from using the backs of chairs, etc., and new concerns about the proper development of the spine. The mention of reclining-boards suggests that the latter was gaining precedence. (Although perhaps more with respect to the appropriate posture for "young ladies" than as an actual health issue, as these passages about the Beaufort and Douglas girls suggest. And strapping girls to something for their posture persisted into the early 20th century.)
3. Pride And Prejudice is explicitly referenced later, so yes, certainly! That description reads to me like an expanded itemisation of Austen's summation of "a single man in possession of a good fortune"...letting us know exactly what was included under the heading of "a good fortune" (at least in aristocratic circles).
The opening-chapter exchange between Mrs and Mrs Douglas, and the descriptions of the two, are also very like the introduction of Mr and Mrs Bennet, though the characters themselves are quite different.
14lyzard
Chapter 1
The Semi-Attached Couple is very much concerned with the way marriages were made, and while the overall tone is comic, there is a serious intent behind the way Eden, via Lady Eskdale, describes the courtships of her two eldest daughters:
...the remainder is easily imagined: high principles, good looks, long attachment---six weeks...
...dearest Amelia was to marry Mr Trevor; another delightful young man with still higher principles, more good looks, a still longer attachment---two months, at least...
In Emily Eden's kind-hearted world, the Eskdales get lucky; but there is no doubt that Eden was much concerned about the way that young girls were hustled into marriage with men they barely knew.
The Semi-Attached Couple is very much concerned with the way marriages were made, and while the overall tone is comic, there is a serious intent behind the way Eden, via Lady Eskdale, describes the courtships of her two eldest daughters:
...the remainder is easily imagined: high principles, good looks, long attachment---six weeks...
...dearest Amelia was to marry Mr Trevor; another delightful young man with still higher principles, more good looks, a still longer attachment---two months, at least...
In Emily Eden's kind-hearted world, the Eskdales get lucky; but there is no doubt that Eden was much concerned about the way that young girls were hustled into marriage with men they barely knew.
17lyzard
Sorry I've fallen off a bit: yesterday was taken over by veterinary issues. I'll be back with some more comments when I get my head in order. :)
(She's fine, I'm in a state of complete emotional collapse.)
(She's fine, I'm in a state of complete emotional collapse.)
18souloftherose
>14 lyzard: I was interested to see that we're being introduced to a couple already engaged and then newly married rather than looking at the courtship up to marriage as is more usual with Austen.
I read to the end of Chapter 9 today and I am really enjoying this especially the snarky comments between Mr and Mrs Douglas.
I had one question on Chapter 9
'The domestic novels of the day have described with such accuracy, and with so much satire, all the little fidgety amiabilities of life, that a wife who is inclined to praise her husband checks herself, for fear she should be reckoned like Mrs Major Waddell. An active mother has suspicion that she is laughed at as a Mrs Fairbairn, and the kindly affections of the heart are now so carefully wrapped up and concealed, that it seems just possible that they may die altogether of suffocation.'
Do you know which novels Mrs Major Waddell and Mrs Fairbairn come from?
>17 lyzard: I'm glad kitty is fine - hope you feel better soon (I'm the same after unscheduled vet trips).
I read to the end of Chapter 9 today and I am really enjoying this especially the snarky comments between Mr and Mrs Douglas.
I had one question on Chapter 9
'The domestic novels of the day have described with such accuracy, and with so much satire, all the little fidgety amiabilities of life, that a wife who is inclined to praise her husband checks herself, for fear she should be reckoned like Mrs Major Waddell. An active mother has suspicion that she is laughed at as a Mrs Fairbairn, and the kindly affections of the heart are now so carefully wrapped up and concealed, that it seems just possible that they may die altogether of suffocation.'
Do you know which novels Mrs Major Waddell and Mrs Fairbairn come from?
>17 lyzard: I'm glad kitty is fine - hope you feel better soon (I'm the same after unscheduled vet trips).
19lyzard
Yes, that's one of the big differences in Eden's writing (and an interesting one, given that she herself never married).
Something occurred to me re: Mrs Douglas but it's a comment better held to the end. :)
Chapter 9
Those references are very interesting---they are both allusions to The Inheritance, the 1825 novel by Susan Ferrier, whose Marriage we read for this project. (Well...some of us! Did you ever get around to finishing it, or giving it another go?) She is considered only a minor novelist now, but it is obvious that she was well-thought-of at the time (i.e. in 1830) and that Eden expected her own readers to recognise the source of the comparisons.
Something occurred to me re: Mrs Douglas but it's a comment better held to the end. :)
Chapter 9
Those references are very interesting---they are both allusions to The Inheritance, the 1825 novel by Susan Ferrier, whose Marriage we read for this project. (Well...some of us! Did you ever get around to finishing it, or giving it another go?) She is considered only a minor novelist now, but it is obvious that she was well-thought-of at the time (i.e. in 1830) and that Eden expected her own readers to recognise the source of the comparisons.
21kac522
>18 souloftherose: Thanks for asking about those references; made a mental note, but then forgot....story of my life.
I'm about 20 chapters in; it seems the women who have been married for some time (Mrs. Douglas, Lady Portmore) are very irritating, to say the least. I'm having a hard time tolerating them, and they seem to take up a lot of real estate in this book.
I'm about 20 chapters in; it seems the women who have been married for some time (Mrs. Douglas, Lady Portmore) are very irritating, to say the least. I'm having a hard time tolerating them, and they seem to take up a lot of real estate in this book.
22souloftherose
>19 lyzard: 'Did you ever get around to finishing it, or giving it another go?'
*looks shamefaced* No...
>21 kac522: I read up to chapter 15 today so have only just met Lady Portmore but yes, very irritating! I find them both very interesting to read about but oh I would hate to have to spend time with either in real life.
*looks shamefaced* No...
>21 kac522: I read up to chapter 15 today so have only just met Lady Portmore but yes, very irritating! I find them both very interesting to read about but oh I would hate to have to spend time with either in real life.
23lyzard
>22 souloftherose:
Since you say that, I'll make the remark that occurred to me earlier---
Mrs Douglas and Lady Portmere kept striking me as ancestors of E. F. Benson's Mapp and Lucia---comically awful people who would be hell to live with, but can be laughed at in a novel. And again like them, Mrs Douglas (Lucia), though terrible, suddenly seems like a much more likeable person when placed side-by-side with Lady Portmere (Mapp).
Since you say that, I'll make the remark that occurred to me earlier---
Mrs Douglas and Lady Portmere kept striking me as ancestors of E. F. Benson's Mapp and Lucia---comically awful people who would be hell to live with, but can be laughed at in a novel. And again like them, Mrs Douglas (Lucia), though terrible, suddenly seems like a much more likeable person when placed side-by-side with Lady Portmere (Mapp).
24lauralkeet
I've had a late start and am only on Ch 6 but wanted to let you know I'm here, enjoying the book so far, and following the questions/answers as they are posted.
25kac522
>23 lyzard: Well, now, that's so timely, Liz... the Benson books are next up for me as soon as I finish Eden! I've never read them, but kept getting hit with Mapp & Lucia BBs all over LT!
26lauralkeet
>22 souloftherose: *stands in solidarity with Heather*
I couldn't finish Marriage either. 😀
I logged a few more chapters last night, reading through Chapter 9. I haven't met Lady Portmere yet but I feel better prepared knowing I'll be meeting the literary forebears of Mapp & Lucia.
I couldn't finish Marriage either. 😀
I logged a few more chapters last night, reading through Chapter 9. I haven't met Lady Portmere yet but I feel better prepared knowing I'll be meeting the literary forebears of Mapp & Lucia.
27TheBookTrunk
Oh dear, I thought I was doing so well and being organised... Only to find I'm reading the books the wrong way round! How could I be so silly? Never mind, I'm not very far through so I'll begin again with the Semi-Attached Couple.
28lyzard
>24 lauralkeet:
Good to hear, Laura!
>25 kac522:
Oh, Kathy, that's so funny! I hope you enjoy the Benson books when you get to them, but be warned: they do deal with some awful (and awfully funny) people! :)
>26 lauralkeet:
I found Marriage quite an easy read...though I do agree that it is a very uneven book.
I'm interested now to read The Inheritance (and trembling on the brink of yet another self-challenge: "Books mentioned in books." :D )
>27 TheBookTrunk:
Welcome, Christine!
Not to worry! - the books are quite unrelated, so they can be read in either order. The two threads are more about keeping discussion in the appropriate place.
Good to hear, Laura!
>25 kac522:
Oh, Kathy, that's so funny! I hope you enjoy the Benson books when you get to them, but be warned: they do deal with some awful (and awfully funny) people! :)
>26 lauralkeet:
I found Marriage quite an easy read...though I do agree that it is a very uneven book.
I'm interested now to read The Inheritance (and trembling on the brink of yet another self-challenge: "Books mentioned in books." :D )
>27 TheBookTrunk:
Welcome, Christine!
Not to worry! - the books are quite unrelated, so they can be read in either order. The two threads are more about keeping discussion in the appropriate place.
29lyzard
What is very striking in the context of 19th century literature (where orphans were often preferred for plot and sentimental reasons) is how much emphasis Eden puts upon the very different family backgrounds of Helen and Teviot, and the impact it has upon their character development---and the way it puts them at cross-purposes.
We remember of course that Eden was one of fourteen children, and that she preferred travelling with her brother to marriage---so she knew what she was talking about when describing Helen and the Eskdales.
Teviot, meanwhile, is an only child, and one who did not have a happy relationship with his father despite being the son and heir---and he just doesn't "get" Helen.
Eden's recognition of the shock, and sense of alienation, that marriage could bring for a woman (and in this case, a very young woman) is very unusual...
...as of course is her choosing to study a marriage rather than a courtship. This is one of the earliest 19th century novels to do that---and we might consider whether that fact was the reason, or one of the reasons, that Eden didn't publish this book. Writers, and particularly female writers (and unmarried female writers!) were dissuaded from these sorts of dissections, which could be interpreted as a warning against marriage.
However, in another thirty years, give or take, we would find people like George Eliot and Anthony Trollope offering complex and occasionally devastating portraits of marriage---and perhaps it's no coincidence that it was then that Eden published The Semi-Attached Couple.
We remember of course that Eden was one of fourteen children, and that she preferred travelling with her brother to marriage---so she knew what she was talking about when describing Helen and the Eskdales.
Teviot, meanwhile, is an only child, and one who did not have a happy relationship with his father despite being the son and heir---and he just doesn't "get" Helen.
Eden's recognition of the shock, and sense of alienation, that marriage could bring for a woman (and in this case, a very young woman) is very unusual...
...as of course is her choosing to study a marriage rather than a courtship. This is one of the earliest 19th century novels to do that---and we might consider whether that fact was the reason, or one of the reasons, that Eden didn't publish this book. Writers, and particularly female writers (and unmarried female writers!) were dissuaded from these sorts of dissections, which could be interpreted as a warning against marriage.
However, in another thirty years, give or take, we would find people like George Eliot and Anthony Trollope offering complex and occasionally devastating portraits of marriage---and perhaps it's no coincidence that it was then that Eden published The Semi-Attached Couple.
30lauralkeet
>29 lyzard: I love this context, thank you Liz!
31TheBookTrunk
As another late-comer has said, most of my questions have already been answered, so many thanks for the explanations about britzskas, reclining boards etc, and all the background information. Presumably the 'Bruche' mentioned by Mrs Tomkinson in her letter (Chapter 8) is a barouche?
I'm struck by all the references to Jane Austen, especially Mrs Douglas' comments about not recognising people because they look 'very ill' or old – I seem to remember that as well as occurring in Pride and Prejudice, Captain Wentworth makes a similar comment about Anne Elliot, and doesn't someone say something like that about Jane Fairfax? I thought the style and tone resembled Austen as well. Indeed, for a bit I wondered if this was some kind of pastiche, and it's taken me a while to get into it, but I'm at the end of Chapter 12 now and feel Emily Eden has found her own voice.
I'm interested to see how the relationship between Helen and Teviot develops. The poor things come from such different backgrounds, and have rushed into marriage hardly knowing each other. Now they seem to be at cross-purposes, each unable to understand the other, and each afraid to express their feelings. And I have to say that dreadful though she is I love Mrs Douglas – why are nasty people in novels always more interesting than the nice ones?
I'm struck by all the references to Jane Austen, especially Mrs Douglas' comments about not recognising people because they look 'very ill' or old – I seem to remember that as well as occurring in Pride and Prejudice, Captain Wentworth makes a similar comment about Anne Elliot, and doesn't someone say something like that about Jane Fairfax? I thought the style and tone resembled Austen as well. Indeed, for a bit I wondered if this was some kind of pastiche, and it's taken me a while to get into it, but I'm at the end of Chapter 12 now and feel Emily Eden has found her own voice.
I'm interested to see how the relationship between Helen and Teviot develops. The poor things come from such different backgrounds, and have rushed into marriage hardly knowing each other. Now they seem to be at cross-purposes, each unable to understand the other, and each afraid to express their feelings. And I have to say that dreadful though she is I love Mrs Douglas – why are nasty people in novels always more interesting than the nice ones?
32lauralkeet
I'm grateful to Liz for comparing Mrs Douglas and Lady Portmere to Mapp and Lucia. Reading their awfulness through a satirical lens makes them much more tolerable.
33kac522
One thing that strikes me is that we are given the thoughts of a servant, Mrs Tomkinson, and she often has the most rational summary of the situation. Is that something new with Eden? I can't recall servants very often in Austen.
34lyzard
>31 TheBookTrunk:
Yes, "bruche" is a phonetic misspelling of "barouche" (an open four-horse carriage with seats facing both ways and a collapsible hood).
In Persuasion, it is Sir Walter Eliot who is obsessed with people's appearance (one of his objections to the navy is that naval service is ageing!); but yes, Captain Wentworth does remark that Anne is "much altered"---not surprising, considering she is then an unhappy twenty-seven-year-old rather than a nineteen-year-old in the throes of first love. :)
Yes, "bruche" is a phonetic misspelling of "barouche" (an open four-horse carriage with seats facing both ways and a collapsible hood).
In Persuasion, it is Sir Walter Eliot who is obsessed with people's appearance (one of his objections to the navy is that naval service is ageing!); but yes, Captain Wentworth does remark that Anne is "much altered"---not surprising, considering she is then an unhappy twenty-seven-year-old rather than a nineteen-year-old in the throes of first love. :)
35lyzard
I'm still trying to work out whether Eden intends us to take Lady Eskdale at face value. She is clearly a good and very loving mother, but then we have that allusion to the fact that she is unable to imagine a marriage less happy than her own. This makes her no help at all to her struggling daughter.
I'm also wondering too if Eden intended a tacit criticism of the prevailing social convention that husbands and wives were not supposed to criticise or even discuss each other with outsiders? (As usual, we see that this convention applied much more stringently to women than men: Teviot keeps carrying his grievances to Lady Portmere of all people! - though to be fair it's partly because he has few friends and his closest is Helen's brother.) Helen, however, has internalised her mother's instructions on this point so deeply that she won't discuss her problems with her two married sisters who, despite their own fairly trouble-free marriages, could probably offer good advice.
Eden may have felt that bottling things up was likely to be harmful, and cause small issues to escalate as they were brooded upon.
I'm also wondering too if Eden intended a tacit criticism of the prevailing social convention that husbands and wives were not supposed to criticise or even discuss each other with outsiders? (As usual, we see that this convention applied much more stringently to women than men: Teviot keeps carrying his grievances to Lady Portmere of all people! - though to be fair it's partly because he has few friends and his closest is Helen's brother.) Helen, however, has internalised her mother's instructions on this point so deeply that she won't discuss her problems with her two married sisters who, despite their own fairly trouble-free marriages, could probably offer good advice.
Eden may have felt that bottling things up was likely to be harmful, and cause small issues to escalate as they were brooded upon.
36lyzard
>33 kac522:
There was a long history of comically mouthy servants on stage, but they were less frequent in novels---and almost always found in overtly humorous stories. Eden gives us something new here in that Mrs Tomkinson isn't merely the comic relief, she has a serious viewpoint of Helen's situation. It was quite daring to show a servant watching, and criticising (if only to herself) her "betters". (And perhaps another reason the book wasn't published?)
There was a long history of comically mouthy servants on stage, but they were less frequent in novels---and almost always found in overtly humorous stories. Eden gives us something new here in that Mrs Tomkinson isn't merely the comic relief, she has a serious viewpoint of Helen's situation. It was quite daring to show a servant watching, and criticising (if only to herself) her "betters". (And perhaps another reason the book wasn't published?)
37kac522
>36 lyzard: Yes, I think it's interesting that we get Helen's viewpoint, Lord Teviot's viewpoint and Mrs Tomkinson's viewpoint--all different!
38kac522
I am nearly finished with TS-AC. Have a question:
Chapter XXV
Is 'Mr. G.' based on a real person?
Chapter XXV
Is 'Mr. G.' based on a real person?
39lyzard
No, I don't think so; I think it's more an example of the kind of thing that Anthony Trollope does, in which he alludes to real political events via fictional characters.
It is more important that we remember that these events are unfolding in the years leading up to the passing of the First Reform Bill, when there was a lot of political upheaval. Mr G.'s career path sort of mimics that of Earl Grey, who became prime minister after the Duke of Wellington was forced out for refusing to consider reform. The Edens, like Grey, were Whigs (Liberals).
It is more important that we remember that these events are unfolding in the years leading up to the passing of the First Reform Bill, when there was a lot of political upheaval. Mr G.'s career path sort of mimics that of Earl Grey, who became prime minister after the Duke of Wellington was forced out for refusing to consider reform. The Edens, like Grey, were Whigs (Liberals).
40souloftherose
>29 lyzard: 'Eden's recognition of the shock, and sense of alienation, that marriage could bring for a woman (and in this case, a very young woman) is very unusual...'
Yes, I've been thinking this more the further I read.
'This is one of the earliest 19th century novels to do that---and we might consider whether that fact was the reason, or one of the reasons, that Eden didn't publish this book.'
That is interesting to think about!
Another question on chapter XXV - what's the Spanish news Mr G is asking about? Some kind of war?
Yes, I've been thinking this more the further I read.
'This is one of the earliest 19th century novels to do that---and we might consider whether that fact was the reason, or one of the reasons, that Eden didn't publish this book.'
That is interesting to think about!
Another question on chapter XXV - what's the Spanish news Mr G is asking about? Some kind of war?
41lyzard
>40 souloftherose:
It could be almost anything: Spain spent the decade of the 1820s in a state of revolution. A liberal revolution and change of government was overthrown and the absolutist monarchy restored (including the reintroduction of the Inquisition). Spain was also losing control of its colonies, particularly those in the Americas, with numerous wars for independence (successful or otherwise).
Mr G. at this time is Secretary of State, so any of these events might be the news in question.
It could be almost anything: Spain spent the decade of the 1820s in a state of revolution. A liberal revolution and change of government was overthrown and the absolutist monarchy restored (including the reintroduction of the Inquisition). Spain was also losing control of its colonies, particularly those in the Americas, with numerous wars for independence (successful or otherwise).
Mr G. at this time is Secretary of State, so any of these events might be the news in question.
42CDVicarage
Objectionable as Mrs. Douglas is I loved her put-downs of Lady Portmore in Chapter XXIII. Did she know about Lady Portmore's fantasy that Colonel Beaufort was in love with her (Lady P.) or was she just being generally objectionable, do you think?
43souloftherose
>42 CDVicarage: Those put-downs were so funny! I got the impression Mrs Douglas had sussed Lady Portmore out and was being quite deliberate but I might be wrong.
I finished today on my commute and enjoyed this short novel a lot. I liked the fact that we were given the views of the servants from time to time as >33 kac522: points out.
In chapter XXXIV I loved the way Sophia indulged Mrs Douglas by being so hyperchondriachal when Mrs Douglas was there to give her something to gossip about but in what seemed to be a
fairly good-natured way.
The election chapters (around chapter XXXVI had some funny remarks on shopping as bribery but otherwise seemed a little out of place.
No comments on the final chapters until more people have finished
I finished today on my commute and enjoyed this short novel a lot. I liked the fact that we were given the views of the servants from time to time as >33 kac522: points out.
In chapter XXXIV I loved the way Sophia indulged Mrs Douglas by being so hyperchondriachal when Mrs Douglas was there to give her something to gossip about but in what seemed to be a
fairly good-natured way.
The election chapters (around chapter XXXVI had some funny remarks on shopping as bribery but otherwise seemed a little out of place.
No comments on the final chapters until more people have finished
44kac522
>43 souloftherose: I know what you mean about the political chapters feeling out of place. I can't seem to put a finger on it, though.
45lyzard
Sorry, people - been distracted by SRL* the last few days!
(*Stupid Real Life)
>44 kac522:
That, I think, speaks to my overall sense of the book: I have some comments which I will hold until a few more people indicate that they have finished.
Where is everyone up to?
(*Stupid Real Life)
>44 kac522:
That, I think, speaks to my overall sense of the book: I have some comments which I will hold until a few more people indicate that they have finished.
Where is everyone up to?
46kac522
I'm done, but am holding off for a bit on the 2nd novel...probably will go into Queen Lucia next.
47europhile
Progress has been slow this week but I finally finished it this afternoon. I can see why it is compared to Austen but I did not find it as readable as her novels, particularly the latter parts. The ending was a bit too good to be true also! Still I am pleased to have read it at last and will definitely continue with the second part.
48CDVicarage
I've finished. I thought the ending was a bit fast but then Jane Austen didn't waste much time on her final chapters either.
49souloftherose
>47 europhile:, >48 CDVicarage: I also thought the ending tied everything up a bit too tidily.
In chapter XLIII I was interested to seeMary acknowledging she has loved before and Lord Beaufort accepting this. Maybe this was more acceptable earlier in the 19th century but this certainly seemed to be more of an issue in latter part of the 19th century (thinking of The Duke's Children and other Trollope novels)
In chapter XLIII I was interested to see
50lauralkeet
I finished this on Friday and agree about the tidy ending although I realize that wasn’t unusual in its day. I’m on holiday this week and brought the book with me but am reading something else before starting the second novella.
51lyzard
Well done, people!
>46 kac522:
When / if you get that far, I'll be interested to hear whether you agree with my Mapp and Lucia analogy! :D
>46 kac522:
When / if you get that far, I'll be interested to hear whether you agree with my Mapp and Lucia analogy! :D
52lyzard
At the risk of provoking the wrath (or at least, the irritation) of Heather and Laura, I'm going to refer again to Susan Ferrier: it seems to me that the shortcomings of The Semi-Attached Couple are more or less those of Marriage namely, it unbalanced by its inability to reconcile its comic material and its serious material.
While I don't think that The Semi-Attached Couple lurches around in tone as much as Marriage does, Eden still gives us an overtly humorous story that suddenly turns straight-faced.
Comparing anyone with Austen is an insidiously unfair business, but when you read comparable but lesser works like these it helps you to appreciate even more Austen's skill and talent, which we see in (among other tings) a far neater interweaving of tones.
Eden's handling of her fairly humorous text is at odds with its serious heart---an unreconciled tension that exists because she never lets herself make fun of Helen. And rightly so, we might concede, given Helen's age, and that the overriding point that Eden is making is the unpreparedness of young women for the realities of marriage, under the prevailing social conventions.
The presentation of Teviot is much more mixed. Eden does make fun of him - particularly his Superior Male routine - while at the same time trying to show, in a serious manner, how his jealousy and his lack of understanding of Helen's limited experience are creating difficulties that may be fatal to his own happiness and Helen's.
The material itself I found consistently interesting (jealousy of family is something I don't believe I've come across before), but the shifts back-and-forth make for an uneven work.
While I don't think that The Semi-Attached Couple lurches around in tone as much as Marriage does, Eden still gives us an overtly humorous story that suddenly turns straight-faced.
Comparing anyone with Austen is an insidiously unfair business, but when you read comparable but lesser works like these it helps you to appreciate even more Austen's skill and talent, which we see in (among other tings) a far neater interweaving of tones.
Eden's handling of her fairly humorous text is at odds with its serious heart---an unreconciled tension that exists because she never lets herself make fun of Helen. And rightly so, we might concede, given Helen's age, and that the overriding point that Eden is making is the unpreparedness of young women for the realities of marriage, under the prevailing social conventions.
The presentation of Teviot is much more mixed. Eden does make fun of him - particularly his Superior Male routine - while at the same time trying to show, in a serious manner, how his jealousy and his lack of understanding of Helen's limited experience are creating difficulties that may be fatal to his own happiness and Helen's.
The material itself I found consistently interesting (jealousy of family is something I don't believe I've come across before), but the shifts back-and-forth make for an uneven work.
53lyzard
...and as most of you have touched upon, the novel's ending is a bit problematic.
It's less the abruptness of the ending that bothers me, and more its conventionality, as the conclusion of a generally unconventional work.
That suffering was good for the soul was a much-cherished conviction at the time, and we find it frequently in 18th and 19th century literature
Understanding growing through joint suffering It was a much-cherished 19th century belief, and it is found in a great many different works, with people coming to a better understanding of themselves and others through the need for endurance and/or being confronted with death. (Even Austen dabbles in it - per Tom Bertram in Mansfield Park: He was the better for ever for his illness. He had suffered, and he had learned to think: two advantages that he had never known before.) However, I felt that so conventional a situation was out of place in a generally unconventional work, even aside from the necessary tone-shift.
But perhaps we need to keep in mind that Eden did not publish this novel at the time, and didn't revise it before she eventually did. She may have been quite aware of its flaws, rather than considering this a properly "finished" work.
It's less the abruptness of the ending that bothers me, and more its conventionality, as the conclusion of a generally unconventional work.
That suffering was good for the soul was a much-cherished conviction at the time, and we find it frequently in 18th and 19th century literature
Understanding growing through joint suffering It was a much-cherished 19th century belief, and it is found in a great many different works, with people coming to a better understanding of themselves and others through the need for endurance and/or being confronted with death. (Even Austen dabbles in it - per Tom Bertram in Mansfield Park: He was the better for ever for his illness. He had suffered, and he had learned to think: two advantages that he had never known before.) However, I felt that so conventional a situation was out of place in a generally unconventional work, even aside from the necessary tone-shift.
But perhaps we need to keep in mind that Eden did not publish this novel at the time, and didn't revise it before she eventually did. She may have been quite aware of its flaws, rather than considering this a properly "finished" work.
54lyzard
>49 souloftherose:
The idea that a "proper" woman only loved once was something propagated by the sentimentalist novels of the 18th century. The convention died away during the more pragmatic Regency period; and then revived under the restrictions of Victorianism.
It's something I find very exasperating! :)
Effectively an early 19th century novel, The Semi-Attached Couple falls into that sensible period when allowance was made for the mistakes of inexperience, and correcting those mistakes was considered a sign of growing maturity---not that there was something wrong with you!
Thus, Eden shows us that even an intelligent and sensible young woman like Mary Forrester may be attracted to the wrong man. When Mary recognises her error, she separates herself from him---and this interlude has no impact upon her subsequent relationship with the right man.
The idea that a "proper" woman only loved once was something propagated by the sentimentalist novels of the 18th century. The convention died away during the more pragmatic Regency period; and then revived under the restrictions of Victorianism.
It's something I find very exasperating! :)
Effectively an early 19th century novel, The Semi-Attached Couple falls into that sensible period when allowance was made for the mistakes of inexperience, and correcting those mistakes was considered a sign of growing maturity---not that there was something wrong with you!
Thus, Eden shows us that even an intelligent and sensible young woman like Mary Forrester may be attracted to the wrong man. When Mary recognises her error, she separates herself from him---and this interlude has no impact upon her subsequent relationship with the right man.
55souloftherose
>52 lyzard: 'At the risk of provoking the wrath (or at least, the irritation) of Heather and Laura, I'm going to refer again to Susan Ferrier'
You're just going to keep bringing it up until I finish reading it, aren't you? :-D
'when you read comparable but lesser works like these it helps you to appreciate even more Austen's skill and talent'
Definitely!
>53 lyzard: Probably quite unreasonably for a novel of this time I wanted an ending that acknowledged most of the blame for the strained relationship between Helen and Teviot was Teviot's - he did accept responsibility but so did Helen and I felt he behaved most unreasonably. And as you say, before that the book had been more unconventional so I had some hopes it would manage to stay that way.
>54 lyzard: That was refreshing and I'm glad Eden didn't change that on later publication.
You're just going to keep bringing it up until I finish reading it, aren't you? :-D
'when you read comparable but lesser works like these it helps you to appreciate even more Austen's skill and talent'
Definitely!
>53 lyzard: Probably quite unreasonably for a novel of this time I wanted an ending that acknowledged most of the blame for the strained relationship between Helen and Teviot was Teviot's - he did accept responsibility but so did Helen and I felt he behaved most unreasonably. And as you say, before that the book had been more unconventional so I had some hopes it would manage to stay that way.
>54 lyzard: That was refreshing and I'm glad Eden didn't change that on later publication.
56lauralkeet
I’m not feeling wrathful but there’s no way I will go back and finish Marriage! 😃
I agree with the comments about conventionality. I saw where things were going and just sighed. I also appreciate your mention of tone shift. I read quite a bit of this novel in the course of a day of travel. I was aware of some diminishing enjoyment but attributed it to the environment not the book. I now realize it was the switch from humor to a more serious tone.
I agree with the comments about conventionality. I saw where things were going and just sighed. I also appreciate your mention of tone shift. I read quite a bit of this novel in the course of a day of travel. I was aware of some diminishing enjoyment but attributed it to the environment not the book. I now realize it was the switch from humor to a more serious tone.
57kac522
>51 lyzard: I'm about half-way through Queen Lucia (the first book) and right now Lucia reminds me more of Lady Portmore (especially with Lucia's adoring Georgie), rather than Mrs Douglas. But of course I haven't met Mapp yet, so I will hold off until I'm into the second book.
58lyzard
>55 souloftherose:
:D
I think I just find it a bit odd that of all the books we've tackled, Marriage was the one that baulked you. I found it quite an easy read---though very uneven; much more so than The Semi-Attached Couple.
I get quite exasperated with the constant use of Austen as a point of comparison: it's unfair on whoever is being referenced. Austen was a unique and rarefied talent. One of the reasons I like books such as this is because they are examples of what most people really were reading at the time; "comfort reading" is no new concept, after all!
I don't think we can really be surprised that Teviot didn't take responsibility: he's a 19th century man, after all (and, sigh, a man! :) )
>56 lauralkeet:
You cut me to the heart, Laura! :D
Yes, one of the things I've been thinking about is that the comments we've made don't really reflect the book as a whole. It's natural that we tend to focus on that, and the tone shift, and the greater conventionality of the ending; but at the same time we need to highlight the comedy and social commentary of the earlier parts of the book, which I found clever and worthwhile. It's a shame it wasn't maintained but we can understand the reasons.
>57 kac522:
Yup, that's the idea! :)
:D
I think I just find it a bit odd that of all the books we've tackled, Marriage was the one that baulked you. I found it quite an easy read---though very uneven; much more so than The Semi-Attached Couple.
I get quite exasperated with the constant use of Austen as a point of comparison: it's unfair on whoever is being referenced. Austen was a unique and rarefied talent. One of the reasons I like books such as this is because they are examples of what most people really were reading at the time; "comfort reading" is no new concept, after all!
I don't think we can really be surprised that Teviot didn't take responsibility: he's a 19th century man, after all (and, sigh, a man! :) )
>56 lauralkeet:
You cut me to the heart, Laura! :D
Yes, one of the things I've been thinking about is that the comments we've made don't really reflect the book as a whole. It's natural that we tend to focus on that, and the tone shift, and the greater conventionality of the ending; but at the same time we need to highlight the comedy and social commentary of the earlier parts of the book, which I found clever and worthwhile. It's a shame it wasn't maintained but we can understand the reasons.
>57 kac522:
Yup, that's the idea! :)
59lyzard
I see a couple of you have already moved on; see you all (I hope!) at our other thread:
The Semi-Detached House
The Semi-Detached House
