1d-b
Hi everyone I'm new to poetry and having trouble scanning. I can easily scan Sonnets and more regular poems. A friend gave me The North Ship by Larkin and I am having problems locating the meter in the poem Winter. The first two stanzas read:
In the field, two horses,
Two swans on the river,
While a wind blows over
A waste of thistles
Crowded like men;
And now again
My thoughts are children
With uneasy faces
That awake and rise
Beneath running skies
From buried places.
For the line of a swan
Diagonal on water
Is the cold of winter,
And each horse is like a passion
Long since defeated
Lowers its head,
And oh, they invade
My cloaked-up mind
Till memory unlooses
Its brooch of faces –
Streams far behind.
Can someone please scan this and tell me what meter is being used throughout?
In the field, two horses,
Two swans on the river,
While a wind blows over
A waste of thistles
Crowded like men;
And now again
My thoughts are children
With uneasy faces
That awake and rise
Beneath running skies
From buried places.
For the line of a swan
Diagonal on water
Is the cold of winter,
And each horse is like a passion
Long since defeated
Lowers its head,
And oh, they invade
My cloaked-up mind
Till memory unlooses
Its brooch of faces –
Streams far behind.
Can someone please scan this and tell me what meter is being used throughout?
3Crypto-Willobie
Each line seems to contain two beats, using a variety of metrical feet.
In the FIELD, two HORses
Two SWANS on the RIVer
While a WIND blows OVer
A WASTE of THIStles
CROWded like MEN
And NOW aGAIN
etc
In the FIELD, two HORses
Two SWANS on the RIVer
While a WIND blows OVer
A WASTE of THIStles
CROWded like MEN
And NOW aGAIN
etc
5d-b
After researching accentual verse and reading Hopkins I also have a question about Sprung Rhythm. From what I have read Sprung Rhythm has one accent in each foot - and the feet can vary in length.
One definition I read stated that the first syllable in the variable foot is ALWAYS the one with the accent. However, after reading more Hopkins he often seems to start a poem, and thus the first foot in the poem, with an unaccented syllable followed by an accented one. Is it safe to say that the accent in a sprung foot does not always have to be at the start then?
One definition I read stated that the first syllable in the variable foot is ALWAYS the one with the accent. However, after reading more Hopkins he often seems to start a poem, and thus the first foot in the poem, with an unaccented syllable followed by an accented one. Is it safe to say that the accent in a sprung foot does not always have to be at the start then?
7thorold
>5 d-b: Modern poetry like that of Hopkins and Larkin is probably not the best place to get to grips with the rules of formal prosody, because it tends to be mostly about breaking - or at least bending - them. Rather than getting out your coloured pencils and marking up the stresses on the page, you might be better off listening carefully to audio recordings of the poet or a good actor reading the poems to get a sense of how the rhythm works.
There’s a lot of wiggle room for adding extra syllables in Hopkins’s own definition of sprung rhythm (e.g. his “hangers and outriders”), and even within that loose framework he probably didn’t feel himself bound to keep to the rules.
F.R. Leavis suggests that Hopkins’s prosodic theories “will help no-one to read his verse — unless by giving the sense of being helped: it merely shows how subtle and hard to escape is the power of habits and preconceptions.” He goes on to quote Hopkins: “take breath and read it with the ears, as I always wish to be read, and my verse becomes all right.” (Essay on Hopkins in New bearings in English poetry)
There’s a lot of wiggle room for adding extra syllables in Hopkins’s own definition of sprung rhythm (e.g. his “hangers and outriders”), and even within that loose framework he probably didn’t feel himself bound to keep to the rules.
F.R. Leavis suggests that Hopkins’s prosodic theories “will help no-one to read his verse — unless by giving the sense of being helped: it merely shows how subtle and hard to escape is the power of habits and preconceptions.” He goes on to quote Hopkins: “take breath and read it with the ears, as I always wish to be read, and my verse becomes all right.” (Essay on Hopkins in New bearings in English poetry)
8d-b
Thanks Thorold!
Very informative. So far I have read:
Timothy Steele - All the fun's in how you say a thing
Alfred Corn - The Poem's Heartbeat
Williams - The Poetry Toolkit
McCauley - Versification
Spurr - Studying Poetry
Do you have any other good intro book recommendations?
Very informative. So far I have read:
Timothy Steele - All the fun's in how you say a thing
Alfred Corn - The Poem's Heartbeat
Williams - The Poetry Toolkit
McCauley - Versification
Spurr - Studying Poetry
Do you have any other good intro book recommendations?
9thorold
>8 d-b: That sounds like a pretty comprehensive reading list!
Something I’ve found interesting, but which might or might not work for you, is to look at poetry from a language viewpoint rather than the traditional literary approach. One nice example of that is Geoffrey Leech’s Book A linguistic guide to English poetry. But there are plenty of others.
That sort of approach is often very revealing because of the way it starts from what poets actually wrote, rather than theories about ideal poetic forms. Obviously that goes rather beyond scansion, but that’s an important element too, of course.
Something I’ve found interesting, but which might or might not work for you, is to look at poetry from a language viewpoint rather than the traditional literary approach. One nice example of that is Geoffrey Leech’s Book A linguistic guide to English poetry. But there are plenty of others.
That sort of approach is often very revealing because of the way it starts from what poets actually wrote, rather than theories about ideal poetic forms. Obviously that goes rather beyond scansion, but that’s an important element too, of course.
10d-b
Thanks thorold!
I have bought this book on ebay. Looks very interesting.
Thanks again for the help.
I have bought this book on ebay. Looks very interesting.
Thanks again for the help.
11Crypto-Willobie
Coincidentally Leech's book came to my attention earlier this week (can't recall how) and I have one on order from ABE.
Fwiw, I learned much of what I know about scansion from X J Kennedy's excellent Introduction to Poetry, the 1971 edition, though i believe it's been revised several times since then.
Fwiw, I learned much of what I know about scansion from X J Kennedy's excellent Introduction to Poetry, the 1971 edition, though i believe it's been revised several times since then.
12thorold
>10 d-b: >11 Crypto-Willobie: I’ll be interested to hear what you think about it!
13bookstopshere
I'd be interested as well
I would note that I have lots (and lots) of books on poetry - from "how to" to history to specifics on meter, rhyme, etc. - and several on Hopkins that try to explain sprung rhythm - best advice I ever heard re: sprung rhythm was "don't try this at home" ; )
I'll drop a list of things that can be had for the cost of shipping on here ASAP
I would note that I have lots (and lots) of books on poetry - from "how to" to history to specifics on meter, rhyme, etc. - and several on Hopkins that try to explain sprung rhythm - best advice I ever heard re: sprung rhythm was "don't try this at home" ; )
I'll drop a list of things that can be had for the cost of shipping on here ASAP
14Crypto-Willobie
As to the Leech I have't had time to look at it.
But I will note that a Meter Czar just turned up in the Literary Cemetery: George T Wright.
But I will note that a Meter Czar just turned up in the Literary Cemetery: George T Wright.
15bookstopshere
I got lazy - but if you check the 3 pix in my gallery, there are some books on the craft of poetry. Any can be had for the cost of postage - just message me
scott
I should add that you can find lots of ideas over in cheznomore's library of books on prosody
and I have a number of copies of Baer's WRITING METRICAL POETRY also available for shipping cost while they last
scott
I should add that you can find lots of ideas over in cheznomore's library of books on prosody
and I have a number of copies of Baer's WRITING METRICAL POETRY also available for shipping cost while they last
16d-b
Hi all,
Can I have some help with the following poem:
There was movement at the station, for the word had passed around
That the colt from Old Regret had got away,
And had joined the wild bush horses - he was worth a thousand pound,
So all the cracks had gathered to the fray.
All the tried and noted riders from the stations near and far
Had mustered at the homestead overnight,
For the bushmen love hard riding where the wild bush horses are,
And the stock-horse snuffs the battle with delight.
Scanned it is 15 syllables, 10 syllabes roughly throughout with 7 stresses and 5 stresses iambicly throughout with some variation. 13 stanzas of 8 lines.
What would I call this poem? It sounds like a ballad but a ballad is usually 8686.
I can't find any other poems like this.
If someone could put a name to this form I would be greatly appreciative and if someone has some other examples that a very similar.
Can I have some help with the following poem:
There was movement at the station, for the word had passed around
That the colt from Old Regret had got away,
And had joined the wild bush horses - he was worth a thousand pound,
So all the cracks had gathered to the fray.
All the tried and noted riders from the stations near and far
Had mustered at the homestead overnight,
For the bushmen love hard riding where the wild bush horses are,
And the stock-horse snuffs the battle with delight.
Scanned it is 15 syllables, 10 syllabes roughly throughout with 7 stresses and 5 stresses iambicly throughout with some variation. 13 stanzas of 8 lines.
What would I call this poem? It sounds like a ballad but a ballad is usually 8686.
I can't find any other poems like this.
If someone could put a name to this form I would be greatly appreciative and if someone has some other examples that a very similar.
17bookstopshere
I'm thinking it could usefully be recast like:
There was movement at the station,
for the word had passed around
That the colt from Old Regret had got away,
And had joined the wild bush horses -
he was worth a thousand pound,
So all the cracks had gathered to the fray.
All the tried and noted riders
from the stations near and far
Had mustered at the homestead overnight,
For the bushmen love hard riding
where the wild bush horses are,
And the stock-horse snuffs the battle with delight.
making the lines more accessible, but still it's not a satisfying metric, especially that last line - interesting tho
There was movement at the station,
for the word had passed around
That the colt from Old Regret had got away,
And had joined the wild bush horses -
he was worth a thousand pound,
So all the cracks had gathered to the fray.
All the tried and noted riders
from the stations near and far
Had mustered at the homestead overnight,
For the bushmen love hard riding
where the wild bush horses are,
And the stock-horse snuffs the battle with delight.
making the lines more accessible, but still it's not a satisfying metric, especially that last line - interesting tho
18thorold
>17 bookstopshere: I hope you’re not planning to apply for a visa to Australia any time soon — attempting to improve on Banjo Paterson is probably on a par with flag-burning... :-)
Alternating 7 and 6-stress lines is called Poulter’s Measure, but there doesn’t seem to be a name for 7 and 5. But ballads often use alternating long and short lines (and to be fair to >17 bookstopshere: there’s plenty of historical precedent for caesuras turning into line-breaks and v.v. according to shifts in convention and the arbitrary ideas of printers).
I thought Kipling had something like this, but I couldn’t find any examples. He certainly liked long lines with caesuras and internal rhymes.
Alternating 7 and 6-stress lines is called Poulter’s Measure, but there doesn’t seem to be a name for 7 and 5. But ballads often use alternating long and short lines (and to be fair to >17 bookstopshere: there’s plenty of historical precedent for caesuras turning into line-breaks and v.v. according to shifts in convention and the arbitrary ideas of printers).
I thought Kipling had something like this, but I couldn’t find any examples. He certainly liked long lines with caesuras and internal rhymes.
19bookstopshere
I'm a flag burner from way back - and never liked Poulter's measure; lines of a certain length merit multiple caesuras to read and I have difficulty sustaining the meter. That drone I'm imagining does remind me of Kipling - damned hard to read when sober
Thorold: I note LT is full of suggestions for books I might ship to you - and I'm weeding the shelves - would you like a package just to see if LT and I can guess what you might enjoy?
Thorold: I note LT is full of suggestions for books I might ship to you - and I'm weeding the shelves - would you like a package just to see if LT and I can guess what you might enjoy?
20thorold
>19 bookstopshere: Yes, Kipling is probably best when read aloud by someone who has a little bit of alcohol in the system... :-)
Thanks - I left a message on your profile page!
Thanks - I left a message on your profile page!
21d-b
Thanks for your help. I'm slowly working through all Banjo's poems. He did love Kipling - even stayed with him for a while in England. I find a lot of similarities between the two.
I'm also having problems with his poem 'Old Pardon, the Son of Reprieve'. I read a comment that it was closest to trochiac pentameter but this doesn't seem right to me. The first stanza reads:
You never heard tell of the story?
Well, now, I can hardly believe!
Never heard of the honour and glory
Of Pardon, the son of Reprieve?
But maybe you're only a Johnnie
And don't know a horse from a hoe?
Well, well, don't get angry, my sonny,
But, really, a young un should know.
To me this seems more like amphibrachs and anapests. I really can't figure the meter scheme out on this one if anyone can help. Thanks again for the responses - I'm trying to master meter.
I'm also having problems with his poem 'Old Pardon, the Son of Reprieve'. I read a comment that it was closest to trochiac pentameter but this doesn't seem right to me. The first stanza reads:
You never heard tell of the story?
Well, now, I can hardly believe!
Never heard of the honour and glory
Of Pardon, the son of Reprieve?
But maybe you're only a Johnnie
And don't know a horse from a hoe?
Well, well, don't get angry, my sonny,
But, really, a young un should know.
To me this seems more like amphibrachs and anapests. I really can't figure the meter scheme out on this one if anyone can help. Thanks again for the responses - I'm trying to master meter.
22Crypto-Willobie
Ollie: Say Banjo, do you fancy Kipling?
Banjo: Dunno mate, I've never kippled...
23elenchus
There was no realistic chance of that old saw not coming up.
I admit to never wondering before if Kipling himself ever heard it ....
I admit to never wondering before if Kipling himself ever heard it ....
24thorold
>23 elenchus: It’s usually attributed to a Donald McGill postcard, probably from the thirties, which Kipling might well not have seen, but this blog: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/10/02/like-kipling/ has traced other versions of the same joke back as far as 1891 (“When the Rudyards cease from Kipling / And the Haggards ride no more.”)
26elenchus
I'd never heard the H. Rider Haggard joke, nice!
27d-b
haha i've been kippled that's for sure on this poem.
What do you you all think of my attempt at the metre. The first attempt is broken into anapaests with feminine endings.
The second attempt is broken in trochaic tetrameter and pentameter with catalytic first lines every now and then.
x /│x x /│ x x / │ (x) 9
You never heard tell of the story?
x / │ x x / │x x / 8
Well, now, I can hardly believe!
x x / │ x x / │x x /│ (x) 10
Never heard of the honour and glory
x / │ x x / │ x x / │ 8
Of Pardon, the son of Reprieve?
or
/ │ / x │ x /│ / x│/ x 9
You never heard tell of the story?
/ x │ / x │ / x │ / x 8
Well, now, I can hardly believe!
/ x │ / x │ x / │x / │ / x 10
Never heard of the honour and glory
x / │ / x │ / x │ / x 8
Of Pardon, the son of Reprieve?
The stanzas continue in a very similar way. 8 line stanzas with line numbers 9,8,10, 8,9,8,9,8.
Love to hear what people think. Cheers.
What do you you all think of my attempt at the metre. The first attempt is broken into anapaests with feminine endings.
The second attempt is broken in trochaic tetrameter and pentameter with catalytic first lines every now and then.
x /│x x /│ x x / │ (x) 9
You never heard tell of the story?
x / │ x x / │x x / 8
Well, now, I can hardly believe!
x x / │ x x / │x x /│ (x) 10
Never heard of the honour and glory
x / │ x x / │ x x / │ 8
Of Pardon, the son of Reprieve?
or
/ │ / x │ x /│ / x│/ x 9
You never heard tell of the story?
/ x │ / x │ / x │ / x 8
Well, now, I can hardly believe!
/ x │ / x │ x / │x / │ / x 10
Never heard of the honour and glory
x / │ / x │ / x │ / x 8
Of Pardon, the son of Reprieve?
The stanzas continue in a very similar way. 8 line stanzas with line numbers 9,8,10, 8,9,8,9,8.
Love to hear what people think. Cheers.
