Cause of death field best practices

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Cause of death field best practices

1amanda4242
Sept. 22, 2020, 8:55 pm

This is the place to discuss best practices, norms and guidelines for the cause of death CK field.

2amanda4242
Bearbeitet: Sept. 22, 2020, 10:38 pm

lilithcat brought up on the author gender thread that *cause* of death is different from *manner* of death:
John Jones shoots himself intentionally. Cause of death is gunshot, manner of death is suicide.
John Doe shoots John Jones intentionally. Cause of death is also gunshot, but manner of death is homicide.
John Jones is cleaning his gun and it goes off, killing him. Cause of death is again a gunshot, but manner of death is accidental.

Are we more interested in grouping by cause of death or manner? We can enter information on both using parentheses, but it would be entered differently depending on what we choose to emphasize: cause of death (manner) vs. manner of death (cause). Thoughts?

3parlerodermime
Sept. 22, 2020, 11:09 pm

If we're voting, then personally I'm more interested in manner of death (cause), as it allows for indexing according to how the author chose to or was forced to die, which may affect how I read the book.

Use cases: makes it easier to find the poetry of authors who later commit suicide, or the journals of someone who struggled with and then died from complications of a chronic illness, etc.

4AndreasJ
Bearbeitet: Sept. 23, 2020, 6:17 am

>2 amanda4242:

In the cases you mention, manner of death is what I'd primarily want to know.

I'm not sure where that'd leave death by disease, though? My paternal grandmother died from COPD, is that a cause or a manner?

5amanda4242
Sept. 23, 2020, 12:53 am

>4 AndreasJ: If we believe Wikipedia,
cause of death is a specific disease or injury, in contrast to the manner of death which is a small number of categories like "natural", "accident", "suicide", and "homicide"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cause_of_death
So your grandmother's cause of death would be COPD.

I think I'm also generally more interested in manner, rather than cause. I mean, it's worth knowing Aeschylus died from head trauma, but it's way more interesting to know he died by having a tortoise dropped on his head.

6lilithcat
Sept. 23, 2020, 1:13 am

COPD is a cause of death. Manner of death would be "natural causes".

7Cynfelyn
Sept. 23, 2020, 3:38 am

>2 amanda4242: "John Doe shoots John Jones intentionally. Cause of death is also gunshot, but manner of death is homicide."

What is the balance of usage between homicide and murder in the USA? And in other English-speaking countries? In the UK we know what homicide is, mostly fom US TV shows, but to all intents and purposes nobody uses the word.

8konallis
Bearbeitet: Sept. 23, 2020, 12:26 pm

>7 Cynfelyn: Homicide also includes manslaughter, so if John Jones was shot intentionally then 'murder' would be more precise (as well as a significant fact to know).

Another gunshot example is Patrick Pearse, executed by firing squad for his part in the Easter Rising. In his case, the manner of his death, execution, would definitely be more important to his biography than the physical means.

When it comes to suicides, perhaps we could follow the practice recommended in journalism and just note 'suicide' rather than describing the means?

9AndreasJ
Sept. 23, 2020, 6:27 am

>5 amanda4242:, >6 lilithcat:

Then I don't think either cause or manner is the right choice in all cases. As various have noted, that somebody died from a gunshot is less interesting than whether they committed suicide, were murdered, were executed, etc., but putting "natural causes" for everyone who died of disease doesn't seem very interesting.

Maybe best practice would be to mention both (where known)

Executed (hanged)
Natural (Covid-19)

?

10abbottthomas
Bearbeitet: Sept. 23, 2020, 10:28 am

>6 lilithcat: The majority of those dying of COPD developed the disease as a result of smoking cigarettes (maybe other air pollution is catching up nowadays). Is intentionally inhaling a noxious substance a 'natural cause'? There are probably arguments both ways.

In general I think CK should reflect what is interesting about an author and, as >5 amanda4242: and >8 konallis: showed, falling reptiles and Kilmainham jail are much more so than 'head injury' and 'shooting'

11lilithcat
Sept. 23, 2020, 9:19 am

>7 Cynfelyn: What is the balance of usage between homicide and murder in the USA?

"Homicide" is the correct term for manner of death. It is a medico-legal term, and contrasts to "suicide", "accident", "natural causes".

The terms "homicide" and "murder" are not equivalent. The former is broader. It includes "murder" (the definition of which varies from state to state), but also killings in self-defense, executions, and what my state calls manslaughter and reckless homicide.

12amanda4242
Sept. 23, 2020, 12:14 pm

>9 AndreasJ: putting "natural causes" for everyone who died of disease doesn't seem very interesting

I agree. I think in cases where the manner is natural, it's the cause that's the more valuable information.

13timspalding
Sept. 23, 2020, 12:25 pm

BTW, my opinion here is that we shouldn't split philosophical hairs. If the data is interesting and could form some sort of pattern with other data, we want it. Fortunately, the cause-of-death field is a multi-option field, so you can add both "gunshot" and "school shooting" if you think that's useful.

14amanda4242
Sept. 23, 2020, 12:39 pm

I think the question of entering data as cause of death (manner) vs. manner of death (cause) is probably one of those things that should be decided on a case by case basis. Some examples:
  • John Keats's manner of death was natural, but knowing he was one of the zillions who died of TB is more interesting, so I'd enter just tuberculosis in the field.
  • Ernest Hemingway's cause of death was gunshot, but the manner was suicide. My first thought when I think of his death is "suicide", so I'd enter suicide (gunshot)
  • Percy Bysshe Shelley drowned in a sailing accident. I think his cause of death is the more interesting information, so I'd enter drowning (accidental)

    Thoughts?
  • 15r.orrison
    Sept. 23, 2020, 2:06 pm

    What about using () for specifics, e.g. "cancer (gallbladder)" or "gallbladder cancer"? I'd go with the first, which links all the cancer entries together.

    16lilithcat
    Sept. 23, 2020, 5:12 pm

    >15 r.orrison:

    That makes sense. I've been entering it the second way, but your point is very well taken.

    17JMK2020
    Bearbeitet: Sept. 24, 2020, 6:19 am

    Some thinking. More or Less a little subjective but Some memories of demographic statistics. In order :

    A) Death by disease **
    1) Tumors (Cancer various, ....)
    2) Circulatory system (Heart disease, ...)
    3) Respiratory system (Influenza, Pneumonia, bronchopneumopathy, asthma, ...)
    4) Digestive system (hepatitis, gastroenteritis, ...)
    5) Endocrynal, nutritional and metabolic disease = Diabetes
    6) Infectious and parasitic disease (tuberculosis, Hepatitis, VIH, ... Covid)

    B) Accidental death
    x) Multiple origins

    C) Death by homicide
    **** x) Various ways

    D) Act of war
    x) Various ways

    E) Suicide
    x) Various ways

    F) Justice decision
    x) Various ways

    G) Natural death : old age

    nb : In fact : B), C), D), E), F) are External causes

    ** The natural death of old people are more and more in this category but G) is is still useful

    Some examples i use in LBTh (by simplifying disease cause A)

    Deasease (Cancer, Lung)
    Deasease (VIH)
    Deasease (Malnutrition)

    Accidental (Car, Collision) or (Motorbike, Slip)
    Accidental (Horse, Plunge)

    Act of War (Bombing Raid) or (Firearm)
    Act of War (Terrorism, Bombing)

    Suicide (Firearm)
    Suicide (Medication abuse)

    Homicide (Strangled)
    ...

    **** Genocide in Homicide

    Are there any unforeseen cases ?
    Everything is relative with discernment (cf Overdose or defenestration)

    18Nicole_VanK
    Bearbeitet: Sept. 24, 2020, 7:11 am

    >17 JMK2020: I'm unsure. Look at Anne Frank, for instance. The actual cause of death seems to have been typhus, but that she had it was caused by genocidal policies. I would be in favour of listing both typhus and genocide separately on her page.

    19JMK2020
    Sept. 24, 2020, 7:23 am

    >18 Nicole_VanK:
    It's just an own appreciation to order in time and space :
    Anne Franck = Shoah ->Genocide->Homicide (Disease, Typhus)**
    **
    Main data : WW2 / Shoah (Volontary Destruction)
    Second Data (consequence : Disease)
    What ? Typhus
    Without Genocide, probably, no tiphus

    ??

    20Cynfelyn
    Sept. 24, 2020, 12:52 pm

    >18 Nicole_VanK: "The actual cause of death seems to have been typhus, but that she had it was caused by genocidal policies ; >19 JMK2020: "Without Genocide, probably, no tiphus"

    Sorry, but I disagree. Anne Frank died during the Holocaust, but not of the Holocaust - although others certainly did. Otherwise all the excess deaths caused by cancer, unwillingness to visit a doctor, or whatever during the current pandemic, can be laid at the door of COVID-19. And who can say, to pick a very recent death, whether or not Ruth Bader Ginsburg is an excess death caused by COVID-19?

    21konallis
    Sept. 25, 2020, 4:45 am

    >20 Cynfelyn: But typhus - a disease of overcrowded, insanitary conditions - was a consequence of Frank's imprisonment, rather an incidental factor. Whether a concentration camp victim's primary cause of death was execution, starvation, exhaustion, beating or disease, they still died as the result of deliberate policy. It's a more direct connection than excess deaths from other causes during Covid-19 which, however tragic and avoidable, are more of a secondary effect.

    22jjwilson61
    Sept. 25, 2020, 2:39 pm

    >21 konallis: If you want to go that route then a Black person who dies of a heart attack could be said to have died from living all his life in a racist and therefore stressful society. I think it's best to allow both explanations.

    23JMK2020
    Bearbeitet: Sept. 25, 2020, 3:17 pm

    >21 konallis: Exactly
    >22 jjwilson61: Hummm, If we want to go this way then I'll die because I was born....
    To avoid reasoning by the absurd, let's think of the qualification and then of its content

    In official statistics, cf 17) we can consider that the cause of death of A Franck is external = C firstly cause of homicide (or murder, but understood as genocide) ... and in this context, typhus = A6

    Then it is a question of organizing the information to easily understand what is the essential data and their logical order :

    R : Homicide (Disease / Typhus) --> C / A / 6
    or
    F : Typhus (Disease / Homicide) form 6 / A / C

    it seems R > F (point of view certainly distorted by old lessons in demography and statistics and job with big data) ;-)

    24konallis
    Bearbeitet: Sept. 25, 2020, 6:38 pm

    >22 jjwilson61: I think that's going into factors that affect life expectancy, which is broader than cause of death. Of course inequalities impact health, often significantly, but concentration camps were an extreme environment in which life was worth nothing, in which every aspect of the conditions was designed to destroy, and in which death commonly occurred within months or weeks of arrival. As far as lethality goes, they're more immediate.

    (Edited for clarity)