Lord Peter November: The Nine Tailors

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Lord Peter November: The Nine Tailors

1majkia
Okt. 23, 2020, 3:11 pm

Calling all Bell Ringers: The Nine Tailors

2Helenliz
Okt. 23, 2020, 4:04 pm

>1 majkia: Calling all Bell Ringers You rang?
In all seriousness, I am a church bellringer and I'm more than happy to answer any questions you might have on that elements of the book.
>:-)

3fuzzi
Okt. 24, 2020, 8:18 am

My favorite!

4leslie.98
Bearbeitet: Okt. 25, 2020, 8:00 pm

>3 fuzzi: I think that this is my favorite too - though to be honest, my favorites do change with time & mood. But I have always really liked this one, despite the fact that the bellringing is completely foreign territory for me.

My old paperback edition has this cover:

5fuzzi
Okt. 26, 2020, 6:48 am

>4 leslie.98: that's a cover I've not seen before.

I have a book club edition, the only book in the set that I managed to keep all these years (got it in the 1970s).



6Majel-Susan
Nov. 2, 2020, 11:47 am

A Short Touch of Kent Treble Bob Major (Two Courses): 1-2

I just started on The Nine Tailors yesterday, and so far so good. No one has been murdered yet... I think.

"Where's Lord Peter---oh! there you are. I'm sure we owe you a great deal. Not too fatigued, I hope?"

"No, no," said Wimsey... He felt, in fact, exhausted to dropping-point. He had not rung a long peal for years, and the effort of keeping alert for so many hours had procured an almost intolerable desire to tumble down in a corner and go to sleep.

And so much for hospitality! Just lying in my bed reading, I already felt so fatigued for all of them, especially Wimsey who didn't exctly sign up to spend New Year's Eve on a nine-hour bell-ringing marathon. Oof! I know my body would be sore for a whole week after and possibly even a month.

I'm just a bit confused about how the book is divided. There's a long sequence of numbers and what appears to be a set of bell-ringing instructions at the start of each division. Is it something that is relevant and I should be looking out for how these numbers will tie into the plot? Or am I just overthinking it?

7Helenliz
Nov. 2, 2020, 1:38 pm

>6 Majel-Susan: It's at that point that some ringers get a bit sniffy. On a ring of bells as heavy as are claimed here, that 9 hours would probably be nearer 10.5. And while ringers do ring for that length of time, they tend to get into training to do it. I will note that modern ringers will do wo without the benefit of the vicar relieving him of his rope for a while and the jug of beer.

Don't worry about the seqeunces of numbers or ringing descriptions at the start of each chapter, not all editions have them and they are not relevant to the story. They are usually a piece of ringing that is referenced within the chapter, but they don't add anything beyond curiosity. The example in part 1 "A short touch of Kent treble bob major (two courses) ..." is what the rector suggests should be rung on the handbells in the study when Wimsey is getting back into the swing of it, but Wally Pratt gets embrangled.

Hope that helps. >:-)

8Majel-Susan
Nov. 2, 2020, 3:35 pm

>7 Helenliz: Thanks, it's good to know I don't need to keep track of 'em numbers. And oh, goodness! 10.5 hours of ringing bells -- and all without help! It's worse than I thought!

I see in >2 Helenliz:, that you're an actual bellringer, though. Does it require a lot of physical strength, or is there a proper technique for it so that it isn't so exhausting? What's the longest ring you've done?

9Helenliz
Nov. 2, 2020, 4:43 pm

>8 Majel-Susan: There is some strength involved, but it's far more technique and rhythm than it is pure strength. The bells themselves vary in weight and are usually measured in hundred weight (cwt) (1 hundred weight being 8 stone or 50 kg). But it's not like you're trying to move that yourself, they are rung on a wheel, so there is mechnical advantage. However to get them started you do need some strength.

Bells also vary in weight with pitch, so the 8 bells in the book will have the 8 notes of an octave, and will increase in weight the lower down the scale. The lowest note is known as the Tenor (Tailor Paul in this case) and it is the weight of this bell that is used to describe the weight of the bells as a set. I don't think the exact weight of the bells is mentioned in the book, but taking the vicar at his word that there are few rings heavier, then the tenor is probably 35 to 40 cwt.

The longest I've rung is 3 hours 11 minutes. I've rung 8 peals and have finished each one wanting to soak in a hot bath. It's not just the arms and shoulders, part of it is physically standing in one place. And the brain ache.

This is a video that shows someone learning to ring (not with a terribly good style), but gives you an idea of what is involved. To put the size in perspective, this a 6 bells, tenor less than 10 cwt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJNQJQHA5v4

10NinieB
Nov. 2, 2020, 10:10 pm

My copy is in a box. I probably won't get around to finding it until this weekend. Lord Peter has been a happy part of 2020 so I'm really looking forward to reading.

11Majel-Susan
Nov. 3, 2020, 8:18 am

>9 Helenliz: The video you linked wasn't available in my region, but I looked up other bellringing videos on Youtube and was surprised to see people so tidily gathered in a circle and calmly pulling at ropes going invisibly up into the ceiling of their enclosed four-walled room. Somehow my brain had supplied me with the chaotic imagery of eight people scattered beneath gigantic bells, in partial exposure to the cold entering from the open belfry, pulling and swinging at ropes that just as frequently lifted them off the ground, and then sustaining that level of activity for nine hours straight, very hunchback-of-notre-dame style. Well, I guess I learned something today.

12Helenliz
Nov. 3, 2020, 8:38 am

>11 Majel-Susan: leaving the ground is reserved for *that* Mars bar advert and when something has gone wrong...
>;-)

13klobrien2
Nov. 3, 2020, 1:45 pm

>7 Helenliz: Thanks for all the info on the bell-ringing--it made it a little clearer to me. I do have to say that it's like the "train table strategy"--I let my eyes and mind kind of pass quickly over the technical matter and on to the lovely plot and characterizations.

Really liking this one, but missing Harriet!

Karen O.

14fuzzi
Nov. 4, 2020, 3:59 pm

I watched the 1970s BBC production of The Nine Tailors with Ian Carmichael, and recall the bell-ringing sequences. I found it fascinating.

Helenliz thanks for the info.

15thornton37814
Nov. 5, 2020, 1:32 pm

>14 fuzzi: I'm listening to the full-cast audio by BBC, and I'm loving it! Ian Carmichael is Lord Peter, of course. I suspect it's an audio of the video you mentioned.

17thornton37814
Nov. 6, 2020, 10:17 am

>16 fuzzi: I'l "lookie, lookie" after I finish the audio production. It's longer, and I wouldn't want a spoiler to my listening pleasure, even though I've read this one before.

18leslie.98
Nov. 6, 2020, 1:12 pm

I will add my thanks to >7 Helenliz: for all the helpful info on bellringing! And for the idea of looking on YouTube for examples of it - I found some videos of both Stedman's and triple bobs (bob triples?).

I finished listening to the audiobook, narrated by Ian Carmichael, yesterday (not the full cast BBC one). Even though I haven't reread this book in at least 10 years, I remembered most of the details vividly. In some ways, this is the most melancholy of Sayer's Lord Peter books, especially regarding the Thoday family.

One aspect that I had forgotten though was the long time frame of the story. It starts on New Year's Eve and doesn't finish until almost a full year later at Christmas time! It doesn't feel as slow moving as it must have been because Sayers rigidly avoids any mention of Lord Peter's life outside the case - not even the oblique references to Harriet and his family that occurred in the previous book, Murder Must Advertise.

19klobrien2
Nov. 8, 2020, 5:36 pm

One difference between the BBC version and the book is the early history of the "episode"--the video version has Peter being at the site back in the day when the original robbery took place (twenty years prior?). That didn't happen in the book. I don't know why they felt compelled to add to the plot; I don't think it added anything to the story. It WAS cool to see Peter in his uniform! ;). There's so much going on in the story anyway!

I finished our read and really enjoyed it. Champing at the bit to get at Gaudy Night.

Karen O.

20quondame
Nov. 8, 2020, 8:02 pm

>18 leslie.98: Yes, few books do that any more, and cram 3 weeks to 3 months worth of running around in at most 4 or 5 days.

21Majel-Susan
Bearbeitet: Nov. 8, 2020, 10:26 pm

>20 quondame: Haha, oh, goodness! I haven't read any really new books, but I always want to laugh when I see an especially bad case of it on TV and in the movies.

I'm still reading, by the way. Just a bit sidetracked this week. ;)

22annamorphic
Nov. 9, 2020, 7:02 am

I love this book so much that in the summer BC (Before Covid), I took my youngest daughter from California to tour the Fen country, with a copy of the book in hand. Since then we have moved to near the National Cathedral in Washington where they actually have this kind of bells (what do you call them, the proper ones that swing?) as well as a carillon. DC (During Covid) they have stopped ringing. Has that happened everywhere? I imagine it's because they can't have 8 ringers standing and breathing heavily in a small room. I really miss hearing them; it made me think of The Nine Tailors every Tuesday and Sunday.

>19 klobrien2:, I thought that it was good to put Wimsey at the scene in his younger days -- it gave him a link to the family, and made there be a reason for all that back story. Sayers can handle it as just a story in the book, but in a television version it would feel awkward.

23fuzzi
Nov. 9, 2020, 7:06 am

I've not started reading yet, but as I am familiar with the plot I'm enjoying the discussion, spoilers and all!

(I thought I'd reread this recently, but my review is from 2013, oh my!)

24Helenliz
Nov. 9, 2020, 7:12 am

>22 annamorphic: Bells of this kind are usually described as bells hung for change ringing or hung full circle. They're still bells, the shape of the metal doesn't change (or not enough for a layperson to notice) for being chimed or rung this way.

Yes, that's exactly the problem. Belfries are usually reasonably compact spaces and it's not like you can spread out, your location is dictated by the location the rope falls in the ringing chamber. I've rung 3 times (I think) since March. First time back my arms & shoulders were OK, but my hands ached loads. We've been limited to ringing bells that are spaced out - so maybe 4 out of the 8 at Fenchurch St Paul - only ringing for 15 minutes and only ringing 1 bell. Unlike the books, it is now a lot less likely that you have "your" bell, we're nowadays far more likely to ring a wider range of bells in consecutive pieces of ringing.

You know the cathedral ringers would love to welcome you to visit when this is all over. We're a pretty welcoming bunch as a rule.

I miss it a lot more than I thought.

25thornton37814
Nov. 10, 2020, 8:08 am

I finished the BBC audio of the book last night, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'll try to watch the video later this month--either on a weekend or during Thanksgiving week.

26klobrien2
Nov. 10, 2020, 6:47 pm

>22 annamorphic: Yes, I think you may be right (about the addition of the "prequel" to the TV version). Another difference between reading a book, and watching its adaptation. Good point. And, also, Wimsey in uniform!

Karen O.

27NinieB
Nov. 13, 2020, 5:33 pm

Finished! I found that I remembered the ultimate solution while I was reading, possibly from watching the Ian Carmichael TV series a few years back. Fortunately, I couldn't remember the details between the beginning and the end.

Looking forward to Gaudy Night next month.

28christina_reads
Nov. 18, 2020, 12:36 pm

I've finally picked up my copy and finished part one. Liking it so far, although the bell jargon is reminding me of the cricket jargon from Murder Must Advertise. :) I'm not complaining, though -- I just let it wash over me! This is one of the books in the series that I haven't read before, so I'm excited to be going in blind, so to speak.

29fuzzi
Nov. 18, 2020, 12:38 pm

>28 christina_reads: I hope you really enjoy it. I loved it on the first and subsequent reads.

30Majel-Susan
Nov. 18, 2020, 3:03 pm

I finished yesterday, and I really enjoyed this whole mystery. It seemed fairly obvious, maybe too obvious even, that the Thodays had something to do with the discovered body, but I really liked how it all came together piece by piece and link by link, beginning with the letter to "Paul Taylor" and finishing with the Thoday brothers joint confession; and I sympathised with Wimsey's feeling that he had just messed things up for the real victims of Deacon's past deceit and his inconvenient reappearance. Still, though, I'd definitely agree with Wimsey that being tied up and essentially beaten out of one's body by the ceaseless banging of bells left and right is a pretty gruesome way to die! That was a pretty horrifying realisation to make. On another note, though, I'm glad I didn't spend too much time trying to guess at the cipher. XD

I wouldn't know about the other novels, but I never felt like I was being cheated on the details here, as there were no big reveals that were not gathered with the reader; and besides finding Wimsey a very personable character, I rather liked the very story-like, less cold-facts style of narration here, if anybody can understand what I mean. I almost regret now starting with Lord Peter Views the Body because it didn't sufficiently entice me to follow with the group read, whereas while reading The Nine Tailors, I was thinking to myself, "Hmm, there could be something to the other books I skipped out on." I wasn't planning to before, but I think I might join in for Gaudy Night next.

31hailelib
Nov. 18, 2020, 3:43 pm

I really enjoyed my reread of the book as I had forgotten almost all the details and it was practically like reading it for the first time. The video, which I watched later, was very good as well.

32Majel-Susan
Nov. 23, 2020, 8:12 pm

Somehow, it's been bugging me since I finished, how very unfair things all turned out for Mary Thoday. Her first husband is apparently trouble whether alive or dead, and all she wants is to do things right, even going back out to London in a hurry to get remarried after having already lived the last ten plus years in peace as a good Christian wife and mother. I dunno, it bugs me a bit that in the end Sayers killed off Will after all the pain that their family went through already. :/

33fuzzi
Nov. 24, 2020, 7:24 am

>32 Majel-Susan: it was because he felt that he was responsible for Deacon's gruesome death, even though he didn't actually kill him.

34Majel-Susan
Nov. 24, 2020, 9:35 am

>33 fuzzi: I know, but still... For Mary to lose her husband after setting things right again, and in such an ambiguous manner (other people believe it was a genuine effort to help the other man who fell in, but she appears to think it was a suicide---I'm inclined to think that the guilt made him more recklessly determined to save a life), I think that would be rougher on her than any of the previous trauma she had gone through before with him by her side for support... poor Mary and the kids... :'(

35NinieB
Nov. 24, 2020, 9:40 am

>34 Majel-Susan: I had the same reaction you did.

36leslie.98
Nov. 24, 2020, 9:48 am

>34 Majel-Susan: I had that reaction as well. It gives the book a melancholy "after taste", at least for me.

37Majel-Susan
Nov. 24, 2020, 3:26 pm

On the other hand, I wonder if, when Wimsey figures out that Deacon basically died because he was tied up and unable to escape, the police would then have to arrest Will for involuntary manslaughter or something like that? Doesn't seem to be any kind of happy resolution for the Thodays, come to think of it... Depressing.

38leslie.98
Nov. 24, 2020, 9:58 pm

I don't think that there was any situation in which the Thoday family comes out well. Even if Will isn't prosecuted for anything, the guilt would eat away at both Will and Mary.

39leslie.98
Dez. 1, 2020, 3:01 pm

Is there a Gaudy Night thread for December yet?

40majkia
Dez. 1, 2020, 8:28 pm

41leslie.98
Dez. 1, 2020, 8:50 pm

Thanks >40 majkia:!

42fuzzi
Dez. 2, 2020, 10:47 am

>40 majkia: thank you!