New LE: Thucydides The Peloponnesian War

Thucydides The Peloponnesian War in series with Herodotus. £400 limited to 750.

https://www.foliosociety.com/uk/the-peloponnesian-war.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-naF1C1C3sU

A handsome if somewhat "standard" LE. The price seems positively modest by comparison with some recent LEs; however, I see it is £55 more expensive than the Herodotus it is in-series with.

With tipped in limitation page...

This looks great! I'll be sticking with my Landmark edition though. It doesn't have a tipped in limitation page but it was 90% cheaper and has 90% more maps.

At the current exchange rate the USD equivalent is around $490. They are asking $580 in the US store, so the "American gratuity" is only $90 this time. Plus the shipping differential, of course.

It says it's "set in Haarlemmer". I'm guessing this doesn't mean letterpress, but simply the typeface used, otherwise they would have said something like "hand set" or indeed "letterpress".

I'll keep saving up for the Ashendene ...

I already got the Herodotus LE, so ordered the Thucydides LE to go with it... ;)

>4 L.Bloom: ditto

>7 Dr.Fiddy:

Well, now my chicken is stir fried... I did not buy Herodotus because I really liked my Limited Editions Club version. Now I'm very sad and anticipate that Folio will rub my face in it by continuing these classics.

>9 CobbsGhost: Nothing to be to sad about there, the LEC is one of the most highly coveted Herodotus out there. I would love to add that to my LEC collection!

That's a must-buy for me, as was the Herodotus.

Personally I think the LEC Thucydides is great so I'm far less tempted by this Folio offering. Terracotta Maps look classy though.

I haven't had the opportunity to go through my Greek histories yet but the binding and illustrations do appeal to me, as did Herodotus which I skipped out on. I'm tempted yet again though it's a tough decision for me seeing as I'm not sure whether I'd enjoy the content enough to justify the price tag, not to mention were I to buy a copy of of this I'd be compelled to track down a copy of Herodotus to go with it and the secondary prices for those look a bit painful.

>13 wongie: In terms of the content, I much prefer Thucydides. The Peloponnesian war is fascinating and Thucydides is an engaging author. His text is much closer to what we would consider scholarly work today than what Herodotus (entertaining though he may be) produced.

Why is 'Herodotus' written on the base of the statue picture by the production details? Looks sloppy.

>12 MobyRichard: I'm not that impressed by the LEC Thucydides — it feels like a pale mockery of their breathtaking Anabasis, production-wise.

>16 gmacaree:

I guess, but I would consider even a pale mockery LEC more impressive than most ;).

A bit off-topic, but there was a recent Time article titled "U.S. General’s Prediction of War With China ‘in 2025’ Risks Turning Worst Fears Into Reality"
https://time.com/6251419/us-china-general-war-2025/
It starts off: "In his 5th-century B.C. History of the Peloponnesian War, ancient Athenian historian and military general Thucydides posits, “it was the rise of Athens and the fear that this instilled in Sparta that made war inevitable.

It’s a musing that prompted American political scientist Graham T. Allison in 2012 to venture a theory known as the “Thucydides Trap,” noting that of 16 historical occasions when a presumptive power challenged an established one, no less than 12 resulted in war."

Amusing that they referenced this classic book which is now a lovely new LE by the FS :)

>5 Shadekeep: I noted that as well. Perhaps the ridiculous mark-up in prices if finally catching-up with them.

I think it looks fantastic, even better than the Herodotus LE which I really liked though did not buy. The orange colour is quite attractive and reminds me of the gorgeous Don Quixote LE. Prior posts here have praised the Landmark editions which I hope to pick up at some point as I don’t have any Herodotus or Thucydides.

>4 L.Bloom: L.Bloom: ditto

>15 Alex1Alex: I see it reading Thucydides…..

>21 jlallred2000:

Lol. Stealth update?

>21 jlallred2000: They definitely changed it, because it said Herodotus before. I assumed at the time they were trying to connect the titles.

It's very convenient that so many classic Greek authors can be represented by the same looking guy. 😆

>22 MobyRichard: Lol indeed. They've caught up.

>10 L.Bloom: Jan van Krimpen - who designed the LEC Histories of Herodotus, also designed the Haarlemmer  font used in this latest release by FS both the FS LEs of Herodotus and Thucydides.

Sources:
https://georgemacyimagery.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/heritage-press-the-histories-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_van_Krimpen

>25 mr.philistine: I was not aware of this, thank you. That LEC Herodotus is exquisite. I was already tempted by this Thucydides because of the Hammond translation and now even more so that I know this interesting bit of info.

A bit off-topic but does anyone own Nonesuch Press Herodotus? How does that book feel?

>27 Lukas1990: I do. It feels...heavy. It is a large book, and outstanding.

I look forward to receiving this to go along with the FS Herodotus. I slowly read the FS edition with the Landmark open just above for maps and Notes. I anticipate doing the same with this new FS book.

The FS Herodotus has become one of my favorite FS books.

>29 Forthwith: I feel like that's the biggest deterrent for me. I love the classics but I'd find it cumbersome to have two books out at once when all you really need is the Landmark edition open with the Folio edition sitting pretty on a shelf. Both translations in my opinion are enjoyable. I'm still on the fence since Thucydides is a much more entertaining experience where I find Herodotus great in some parts while others are mundane. I wish Folio had used the Landmark Series edition...

147 sold so far. It looks to be selling as well as the Herodotus was at this point.

>31 assemblyman: 147 sold so far.

I received mine this morning. It looks pretty good on the website; even better in the hand. I love the smell of new leather.

It'll sit nicely next to the Herodotus LE.

>32 folio_books: I'm sure it does. Congrats Glen, it's a gorgeous LE. I shall continue with my usual dithering until it sells out :)

Out of curiosity is there any here who have bought or are intending to buy this LE who have not bought or do not intend to buy the Herodotus LE? And for those who did not purchase the Herodotus LE does that put you off buying Thucydides LE? I ask as it is a stand alone work but this edition is also in series with the Herodotus.

>33 assemblyman: Good question. I did not buy the Herodotus LE but I am considering this one.
Reasons for not buying the Herodotus:
1. I have the Landmark and I didn't feel that the Waterfield translation added significant value over the Purvis (my personal favorite translation is the Rawlinson).
2. As an object I prefer the LEC (which I don't own but plan on acquiring).

Reasons for considering this Thucydides:
1. The Hammond translation is highly praised. I do not love the Crawley in the Landmark.
2. I prefer Thucydides over Herodotus content-wise.
3. The two works are really stand alone. Thucydides is much closer to what we would consider scholarly writing while Herodotus is closer to historical fiction. As such I do not see the two writers as a set or in series with each other despite the FS bindings.

>34 L.Bloom:

Those are all pretty good reasons. And, you almost sold me on it, but since I prefer Herodotus I can't fathom having Thucydides and not the former. Anyway, that might be because I believe all History has a fictional and bias element in it, the real value always comes between the points.

Of course, there are many great versions of these works and who really believes that owning multiple versions of either is really a bad thing?

>32 folio_books:

Any issues with slipcase tightness? I recall that being mentioned with the Herodotus.

>36 adriano77: Any issues with slipcase tightness?

None with my copy. It slips in and out like a good Folio should.

>34 L.Bloom: Those are very concise answers thank you.

>30 Joshbooks1: I can appreciate that for most people but having to study/research the US Tax and various Labor Laws and Regulations, a full desk has become habitual with me!

>39 Forthwith: I am a recovering Exec Comp/Benefits attorney so also used to Treasury Regulations, etc. gracing my desk. This book looks lovely and I would buy in an instant if I had any interest in ancient history versus more recent history.

That was a nice surprise. This was an easy decision for me (ordered). The Herodotus LE was my first Folio book and I am really looking forward to receiving this.

The only small issue I have is that I am not particularly keen on Nick Hayes artist work, but then he would probably not like mine either! I do not find it offensive to the eye, I am just a person who would prefer classic art for classic books, personal preference though.

My copy arrived yesterday, delivered to my place in California. I am impressed that it took just 3 days. I am very pleased with the book as well, I love the smell of leather, the pages are crisp and thick and the pictures are actually quite good. It also looks good on the shelf next the Herodotus LE. The book slides easily out of the slip case. I shall read this after I have completed my current book (Pole to Pole).

I have just received my copy of the The Peloponnesian War Ltd Ed and I’m not sure if there is a problem with the leather on the back cover. I have a few books which have been bound in full grain leather and the odd one has very minor imperfections. However, the imperfections on my Peloponnesian War copy seems to cover a good proportion of the back cover and is noticeable in strong light. I was wondering if anyone with a copy of this ltd ed could advise if they have the same or similar imperfection on their copy. I don’t see anyway of posting any images here.

>43 FolioLorna:

Hard to say. Sometimes the tannery leaves the natural imperfections in the leather, sometimes not. I would contact Folio customer support. I know some tanneries also offer several different quality levels, with more or less minor damage/imperfections.

>43 FolioLorna:

I expect you're seeing a region of natural imperfections somewhat above the usual but within the range the binders considered perfectly fine: then of course binders have a motive for finding as much leather as possible acceptable for their purposes, and their judgment may differ from that of book purchasers, who themselves vary in what it pleases them to see.

To post images, go to https://wiki.librarything.com/index.php/Groups:Folio_Society_Devotees and scroll down - a long way, nearly three-quarters of the full page - for instructions: it's not nearly so straightforward as on the other forums I know, but I've not found it too forbidding a process.

I hope we’re not referring to things like scars and tick bites as natural imperfections. There’s nothing natural about defects like that.

But yes, it’s more expensive to find hides without those defects, so to some extent they get used, and occasionally one will be quite ugly and intolerable for a book that costs hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

Just email them and they’ll exchange it for you without an issue.

>46 What_What:

What's more natural than scars, because animals in the course of their lives now and again pick up cuts and scratches, or tick bites, unless they're from GM ticks?

From a small sheet provided with every copy of the Folio Kelmscott Chaucer facsimile:

"The goatskin used in the binding of The Works of Geoffrey Chaucer is a natural product and has characteristics which are an inherent part of its beauty. The skins sometimes bear traces of their past, such as scars, variations in grain, areas of different skin thickness and various other marks. These are in no way detrimental to the quality of the leather and are regarded as adding to the natural beauty of this material."

They would say that, wouldn't they: but within limits it's perfectly true.

>47 terebinth:

Quite so, as well as the difficulty and additional costs in sourcing a single piece of blemish-free leather to cover a book the size of Thucydides, the Chaucer, Queen Mary Atlas, Edward Lear’s Birds, for example; multiplied by 500 or more.

If blemishes are removed by skimming them from the surface, some, or all of the natural grain is removed too.

Whenever possible the binder will position blemishes in the least obvious place, usually over the back board.

Thanks for all your replies. I have hopefully attached some images. Though the imperfections don’t look as obvious in these because of the strong light. I seem to be contacting the Folio Society reqularly about books, especially the Ltd Eds. Sometimes when I get a replacement copy, it can have more issues than the one I’m sending back. I’m a bit of a perfectionist, so maybe I’m expecting too much. I was just hoping to get other peoples opinions before contacting the Folio Society.

>49 FolioLorna:
I cannot see any imperfections, just mild natural variations in the leather.

>49 FolioLorna:

Yeah, looks pretty normal.

>49 FolioLorna:

That does look weird to me, but then I'm not a leather specialist. My copy certainly doesn't look this way, it has a pretty even colour.

My impression is that the intrinsic colour is even, but minor variations in thickness are causing the striated appearance that's most evident near the top right as light falls on the surface from different angles. Does look to me as though it's comfortably within the range I'd expect of a full leather binding.

>49 FolioLorna:

I can see that bothering me if I were to fixate on it. Is the surface smooth or can those things be felt though?

If you're actually sending the copy back in for a replacement, I don't see an issue with exchanging it if FS doesn't mind either.

It doesn’t really look like an issue to me. Though if you’re dissatisfied they’d probably exchange it for you.

>43 FolioLorna: >49 FolioLorna: For £400 plus P&P it is reasonable to expect perfection.

>56 mr.philistine:

In a mass-produced item I'd agree, but goats aren't mass-produced. I don't know whether Folio would exchange it - perhaps they would, but exchanges are normally of defective copies, whereas I can't see any reason why they wouldn't just supply this one, exactly as it is, to another customer.

I wouldn’t exchange that book judging by the photos, but not seeing it up close does require humility.

>57 terebinth: And maybe someone else would be happy with it, but this customer isn’t.

>54 adriano77: I can see that bothering me if I were to fixate on it. Is the surface smooth or can those things be felt though?

I think that is the key question. If smooth, it's fine - natural variation in full-grain leather. If it is buckled where you can feel it, then that is a flaw, imo.

I know I could sent it back but I could end up with one worse than what I have now. The texture of the affected area feels different but not overly noticeable. Having nothing to compare it too, I was just looking to see if this would be acceptable to others and how it compared to a copy that anybody else might have. I don’t expect it to be perfect but was just trying to gauge how imperfect it was, just in case I was being too pedantic. When it comes to my books, I know I can be.

>61 FolioLorna: ...but I could end up with one worse than what I have now...

Yes, that's a valid point. Out of curiosity I just took out my six large full leather Folio LEs - all from a while ago, the most recent is 2012's Birds Drawn for John Gould - to inspect their back boards, and there's quite a collection of bites, scratches and various odd effects to be seen. When spending time with the books I lift them from their solander boxes (none of the six are slipcased), place them on the library table and open them, so I probably hadn't seen any of their back boards after the days of their arrival. On those grounds it wouldn't have been worth it to me to ask for a replacement for anything short of an actual hole in the leather, or a large and unsightly mechanical scrape.

I am still left wondering why anyone would even want their books bound in goatskin.

What have goats done exactly to be treated like this?

>63 English-bookseller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goatskin_(material)

More from the goat's mouth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2--CkDdAIlo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4mjEABM6qw

>63 English-bookseller: What about the trees???

Does anyone own this and Histories that can post some pictures of them together? THANK YOU!

>66 Kev_Ireland: Here you go :)

beat me to it, I will post anyway. We both opted to sit it next to Dante :)

>67 Dr.Fiddy:
>68 Hamwick:

Wow! They are beautiful. I have Herodotus and waiting on Thucydides, haven't seen any photos of them together until now, so excited!

>65 Joshbooks1: What about them?

>63 English-bookseller: I'm fond of goats, which is why I support anthropodermic bibliopegy instead.

>71 Shadekeep: Yikes.

>72 SDB2012: double yikes

>71 Shadekeep:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropodermic_bibliopegy

Why is it that the Herodotus is so sought after? I saw one on eBay for over $6000! Most resellers don’t have a copy. I understand the quality and rarity but there are other Folio editions of equal quality/rarity that don’t seem to hold value like this. Is there some extra magic that makes this one special? Is the Thucydides on the same path?

>75 dtholloway28: My speculation is that it is because it is in series with the Thucydides and it was sold out before we knew that. I would also argue that Herodotus is more popular and widely read. I have a personal preference for Thucydides because I find the Peloponnesian war fascinating but if you aren't interested in that subject, Thucydides may not be for you.

>75 dtholloway28: 4 have sold on Ebay in the past 90 days. 2 went for around £800, one was listed at $1600 but an offer was accepted and the other was for two volumes - Herodotus and Thucydides. So it has gained in value but £800 seems a more reasonable estimate, I don’t see any evidence that one sold at $6k

>77 DMulvee: You’re right. It’s just a listing not a sale so that may not be a realistic price. I didn’t realize you can search previously sold prices - that’s certainly useful.

>75 dtholloway28: >76 L.Bloom: I tried to briefly look who sells more copies and was unable to find anything. Herodotus is mostly speculative history with fantastical stories throughout his multiple books. I find Herodotus has some very entertaining and wonderful passages but there is a lot material I can't stand and have difficulty reading. Thucydides is the first historian who is more in line with what we consider history today. He was a disgraced general who collected accounts of events and went to battlefields and documented The Peloponnesian War, but, he was so much more. His writing and social commentary was brilliant and I prefer him over any Greek or Roman historian. I still remember his passages on the Athenian plague, Melian debate, Alcibiades, and invasion of Sicily. The ONLY problem with The Peloponnesian War is that Thucydides died before he was able to finish the work and although Xenophon's Hellenica is decent, it's pales in comparison to Thucydides and goes to show how special he was.

I own the Herodotus LE and it's average but no where near $1,000 and if prices continue to increase I'll probably sell mine. It's a sturdy book, well made, feels like it was inspired by Easton Press, with art work which I don't love and wish it was replaced with actual photographs and more maps. When it comes to readability it is not in the same league as The Landmark Herodotus but sits prettier on the bookshelf.

I feel like the Thucydides LE is the only recent LE that seems to be fairly priced and I would likely buy it if they continue the classical line but if they stop here I probably won't.

>80 Joshbooks1: Hi Josh,

I am intrigued by your remark "but there is a lot material I can't stand and have difficulty reading". Can you elaborate ? I am just curious.

Thanks

Mac

>81 Macumbeira: I always found with Herodotus that some of his stories are wonderful and fun to read but there's a lot of tedious material with the worst being what seems to me the endless fantastical stories about Egypt. I took two classes on him in undergrad which was much more enjoyable than myself trying to read The Histories in its entirety on my own. A lot of his work is fabricated which personally makes reading certain sections a chore - Herodotus likely never visited Egypt or Babylon or Pakistan and a lot of his writings should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to any historical accuracy. There are a lot of articles and even books about this. His writing is great and engaging but I also found hundreds of pages to be a slog, something I never experienced with Thucydides.

>82 Joshbooks1:
Herodotus’s travels are evidently a source of some controversy. Encyclopedia Britannica reports:

“Herodotus was a wide traveler. His longer wandering covered a large part of the Persian empire. He went to Egypt, at least as far south as Elephantine, and he also visited Libya, Syria, Babylonia.” It goes on to say that he visited Byzantium, Thrace, and Macedonia, and traveled to the Danube and the Black Sea. The article acknowledges, however, that he seemed to know little about military matters.

Wikipedia says:

“Herodotus has been criticized for his inclusion of ‘legends and fanciful accounts’ in his work. The contemporaneous historian Thucydides accused him of making up stories for entertainment. However, Herodotus explained that he reported what he could see and was told. A sizable portion of the Histories has since been confirmed by modern historians and archaeologists.”

I think the criticism and controversy goes much deeper than that. I love many passages in Herodotus and a lot of what we know in and around Greece at that time is through him but we should take a lot of what Herodotus writes with a grain of salt. As for your last sentence, if you look at the minute things that modern historians and archaeologists are 'proving' it is far less than what you'd think and clearly not sizable portions confirmed. Herodotus has been highly criticized by both ancient and contemporary scholars alike. Since you used Wikipedia as a source, they even document this in depth:

"Detlev Fehling writes of 'a problem recognized by everybody', namely that Herodotus frequently cannot be taken at face value.38 Fehling argues that Herodotus exaggerated the extent of his travels and invented his sources.39 For Fehling, the sources of many stories, as reported by Herodotus, do not appear credible in themselves. Persian and Egyptian informants tell stories that dovetail neatly into Greek myths and literature, yet show no signs of knowing their own traditions. For Fehling, the only credible explanation is that Herodotus invented these sources, and that the stories themselves were concocted by Herodotus himself.40"

And further: "The reliability of Herodotus's writing about Egypt is sometimes questioned.51 Alan B. Lloyd argues that, as a historical document, the writings of Herodotus are seriously defective, and that he was working from "inadequate sources."45 Nielsen writes: "Though we cannot entirely rule out the possibility of Herodotus having been in Egypt, it must be said that his narrative bears little witness to it."47 German historian Detlev Fehling questions whether Herodotus ever traveled up the Nile River, and considers doubtful almost everything that he says about Egypt and Ethiopia.5650 Fehling states that "there is not the slightest bit of history behind the whole story" about the claim of Herodotus that Pharaoh Sesostris campaigned in Europe, and that he left a colony in Colchia.4846 Fehling concludes that the works of Herodotus are intended as fiction. Boedeker concurs that much of the content of the works of Herodotus are literary devices.4841."

>84 Joshbooks1: Slightly OT, but you seem to have accidentally activated the Touchstones feature on LT. You are looking for 'escape characters' for [ and ]

For [ use & # 9 1 ; (without space)
For ] use & # 9 3 ; (without space)

LT Wiki for Basic HTML: https://wiki.librarything.com/index.php/Basic_HTML_/_How_to_do_Fancy_Things_in_Y...

>84 Joshbooks1:
As I have no interest in spending time consulting numerous academic sources, I have relied on encyclopedias. Britannica concludes:

“Herodotus was a great traveler with an eye for detail, a good geographer, a man with an indefatigable interest in the customs and past history of his fellow citizens, and a man of the widest tolerance, with no bias for the Greeks and against the barbarians. He was neither naive nor easily credulous.”

I’m sure he made mistakes in his judgements and interpretations just as contemporary historians do, but they were probably not deliberate or fanciful.

By the way, the final statement in my earlier post was Wikipedia’s, not mine.