Deathly Hallows chapters 25-28 discussion

Good morning, everyone! Ready to discuss more DH chapters? This week, the chapters are:

25 -- Shell Cottage
26 -- Gringotts
27 -- The Final Hiding Place
28 -- The Missing Mirror

Let's go!

I just wanted to pop in. I have to confess, I haven't done my reading. Between family obligations and the new book I haven't gotten around to it. This is the last you will see me today anywhere on LT because I have yet to finish the new book and I don't want to risk spoilers. See you all tomorrow, I should be done then!

Chapter 25: Shell Cottage

This chapter seemed a little superfluous. It was nice to know about Teddy Lupin being born, but I think the rest felt like filler and could have been condensed. I really didn’t mind chapters like this in the other books, because we were usually finding out about day to day life at the school. Here it is just one more chapter in hiding.

#3 -- I had the same thought -- it felt like losing momentum, after all of the excitement of Malfoy Manor. I was thinking that, after they find the sword, things really start to pick up -- but this chapter doesn't show that very well.

Back with my own notes when I get a chance!

Ch 25

1. Harry definitely wouldn't have opened DD's grave, so unless he was going to have a standoff with Voldy right then and there, it was better to let Voldy get the wand.

2. Interesting how easily Ron says things that reflect "wizarding arrogance" even with him not being an arrogant wizard type, but just because he's grown up with wizards being in charge.

3. I thought the goblin-made tiara would come into what to give Griphook.

4. Olivander thanking Luna is sweet. She would be the best possible company in a hostage/prisoner situation.

5. I like that Ted has the making of being a metamorphmagus.

6. I wonder if JKR gave Bill a job at Gringotts specifically for him to have inside knowledge on goblins, which he shares here.

7.

"It would be less dangerous to break into Gringotts than to renege on a promise to a goblin."

And Harry is planning both..

I'm reading posts but I read it awhile back and now am so very busy with two nieces and a nephew visiting, one of them only seven months old. so I will read and post alittle

All right, chapter 25:

1) "Hermione's support made him feel just as confused as Ron's doubts" -- this seemed familiar, though I can't remember when it's happened before. Harry's so used to Ron's enthusiastic support and Hermione's cautions that, when things are reversed, he hardly knows what to do!

2) Remus startled me! At first reading, for just a second I thought there might have been an attack on the Weasleys or something.

3) Harry, godfather? I have mixed emotions about this. I guess it's a way for Remus and Tonks (can't get used to calling her Dora) to show support for Harry. And the rest of the Marauders are dead, so I guess Harry's the closest link to them. Interesting that Lupin, who had the most dangerous life, lived longest of any of the four of them.

4) Could Teddy have been both a werewolf and a metamorphmagus? Lupin acts like he couldn't have been -- it seems like a lot of Lupin's euphoria over the birth is relief that his condition hasn't been passed on. Would he have known right away if Teddy had been a werewolf?

5) "It would be less dangerous to break into Gringotts than to renege on a promise to a goblin" -- I'm thinking that Bill must suspect that they're planning on breaking into Gringotts. He's a sharp one, that Bill.

5.6 Lefty, That would take a lot of forethought on her part. Didn't we first hear about Bill working for the Goblins in Book 1? I am pretty sure Mr. And Mrs. Weasley went to Romania that year to visit Charlie. I think the whereabouts of Bill must have been mentioned. Of course, JKR supposedly had the entire series outlined when the first book was published.

7.1 Foggi, It reminds me of when Hermione wanted to do the DA, but then was doubtful because Sirius was all for it. She changed her mind when she saw all the books in the RoR.

7.2 Especially when he said something about only coming for emergencies.

7.4 Maybe the two together will make him into an animangus :)

I'm thinking that because you must be bitten to become a werewolf, that the condition isn't passed on, altho its true that things in RL like aids can be passed on....hmmmm....I also think that Remus lived the longest because he was the most cautious......they would have needed to wait till the full moon ,I think to see if Teddy was a werewolf, maybe like Bill he just likes his beef rare!

AIDS only gets passed on through the placenta, so the mother is the one who has to have it. Not that anything isn't possible in Harry's world.

I agree with whoever said that Shell Cottage is a throw-away chapter, but I think it's there for pacing. Things do go by really quickly towards the end here, and this is just a breather.

Chapter 26: Gringotts

1. This book is the first book that we really see wizards using the wands of others, and we sure see it a lot.

2. Hermione not only thought to “sting” Harry when they were attacked, but had the time and foresight to stuff the beaded bag in her sock? Very clever girl, but very convenient to the plot, too.

3. The only person Hermione remembers to be rude to turns out to be a Deatheater who Bellatrix wouldn’t normally be rude to.

4. Great chapter and adventure. The only thing that didn’t seem plausible to me was how fast the dragon went from the vault area to the main bank and out.

#8, Compski, it would take a lot of foresight, but JKR had a lot of foresight with these books. A whole lot.

#10, Polly, good point that Remus lived longest because he is most cautious.

#11, LG, I agree that while not much happens in Ch 25, it's good pacing. Going straight from the Malfoy's to Gringotts break-in would have been a very fast shift indeed.

OK. Now I agree that it is just J.K. Rowling ignoring her own rules. At this point Shell Cottage is under the Fidelus Charm. How does Lupin find the cottage? If he was told before hand I guess it would make sense, but it just doesn't work for me now. I know I was one of J.K.'s strongest supporters in the last discussion, but I can only defend so much.

My notes:

Chpt 25
1. Harry becomes godfather as another way of showing his growing maturity. He is really making tough decisions here.
2. In the last paragraph, Harry compares himself to Sirius and thinks of himself as "reckless." I see him as only being expedient. His decisions re: Griphook are born of necessity. He's much more like Dumbledore than Sirius, but here he's still clinging to his own godfather which shows how mad he still is at DD.

Chpt 26
1. Even more we see Harry become like DD when he performs the Inperius Curse. He is forced to do something horrible "for the greater good."
2. Such a great action sequence, I just kind of don't care that there are logistical issues. (Like how do they stay on the dragon's back?)

Chpt 27
1. Another pacing and exposition chapter, this time about Voldy's knowledge that Harry is hunting horcruxes. I know it's supposed to be hubris and all that, but I still find it stretches credulity to have Voldy not put some kind of spell on those horcruxes telling him if they've been disturbed. It's necessary for plot, ok, but still, he's so thorough otherwise.
2. Is Ron every going to swear in the movies? He's such a potty mouth (although it's never quoted).
3. Proper use of the term "honing in." Lately I've seen lots of people say "homing in," I think because of a series of commercials here in the states.

Chpt 28
1. So much family drama. Aberforth is so resentful of his smarter brother.
2. Was DD interested in controlling Muggles partly because of what happened to Ariana?
3. Aberforth says, "How can you be sure, Potter, that my brother wasn't more interested in the greater good than in you?" My question is, shouldn't he be?
4. Yay, Neville!
5. If you were trying to groom someone to be a martyr, how would you do it? Examples of martyrdom in our society would range from the 911 hijackers to kamikazis in WWII to that Buddhist monk protesting the Viet Nam war. Is martyrdom ever a good idea IRL?

Chapter 27: The Final Hiding Place

Another filler chapter, but this one didn’t bug me as much. I think we need a breather after the last chapter and before everything at Hogwarts. It is inconvenient that Voldemort thinks of the cottage and the lake, but not specifically about where at Hogwarts the other horcurx is.

maybe he forgot?

Chapter 26 notes:

1) I'm having trouble believing that Hermione could fit the beaded bag in her sock. Oh, well.

2) I think they should have been more upfront with Griphook -- told him that they needed the sword to destroy Voldemort, and promised to give it to him when they were done. Of course, with that plan they run the risk of him refusing -- but they didn't even ask! And it's not as if Griphook was a fan of Voldemort. But, considering Griphook's later actions, he probably still wouldn't have trusted them.

3) Hagrid would have felt so sorry for the dragon, seeing it in that condition!

4) First the Ministry of Magic, now Gringotts, next Hogwarts -- they break into every high-security Wizarding building possible in this book, don't they? (Well, unless you count St. Mungo's, which isn't exactly high-security like the others are, or Azkaban, which has been broken into and out of so many times in the series it's a wonder it's still standing.) And they always manage to leave chaos in their wake. . . .

fd #1 yeah, I wondered when she would have had time to bend down and put it in her sock

18.3 I always imagine Hagrid finding and taking care of the dragon after the Battle of Hogwarts, at least until Charlie and his gang can take over. I also feel that the goblins would want it back, but Hermione would fight for the dragons rights.

Chapter 27 notes:

1) I find it interesting that Voldy thought he'd be able to feel the destruction of a horcrux. I guess that's the rationalization for him not putting more safeguards on them -- that, and hubris: he was just sure that he was the smartest little evil villain ever and nobody could ever guess what he'd been up to!

2) This was an incredibly short chapter -- shortest in the book, unless you count the epilogue.

#16 -- Aw, that would just make it too easy! ;-)

I agree with you on the sock part foggi. Honestly, how big are her socks!? I think JKR was really, really tired when she wrote that part.

And I agree with you on the Griphook part too. I kept thinking, why don't they just tell him the truth!! Better than stealing and hiding, that's for sure. They had nothing to lose.

I can see what you guys are saying about being honest with Griphook, but at the same time, I don't know if I'd trust him with the whole plan. They haven't even told any Order members that they're going after Voldy. And I'm not sure Griphook would go for it.

#24 -- Oh, I didn't mean that they should trust him with the whole plan -- but surely it was obvious that Harry had to go after Voldemort eventually? I mean, it's either that, or remain in hiding for the rest of his life. I don't think they should have told Griphook about the horcruxes or anything.

I don't think Griphook would trust Harry saying, "well, I need it to fight Voldemort but then I'll give it right back." He completely distrusts wizards and he's already going way out on a limb for Harry, and probably only because of the way he treated Dobby. There's a lot of water under the bridge and generations of mistrust between goblins & humans.

Chapter 28: The Missing Mirror

So, we finally hear what really happened to Arianna. Very sad story all the way around. This was a very hard place to stop, but I see that next week will be even worse!

#14, Espy, I think they say that Lupin was told about Shell Cottage. He definitely says on the doorstep something about he was only supposed to come there in an emergency.

#16, Compski, I wonder if the gang could even have known exactly where it was even if Voldy had thought about it specifically because of the RoR's magic.

18.1 Yes, the sock thing is bad.

21.1 I agree completely.

Ch 26
1. Does anyone still have their original wand?

2. When Ollivander makes a replacement wand for someone, is it identical to the person's original wand? Or does he never make any wand exactly like another?

3. At last! A disguise without Polyjuice!

4. Interesting that the DE and Voldy really aren't looking to get rich(er). Just more powerful.

5. Good thing there is no PETA in HP world or Gringotts would have been in a lot of hot water.

Ch 27
1. The first time I read this, I wondered how HR&H would get back to London or Hogwarts. Then I remembered they could apparate.

2. I love this Voldycam and how suddenly the story goes from small action to small action to this huge thing -- he knows and he's coming. You really feel the tension building from here to the battle.

Ch 28
1. Aberforth is so jaded compared to Albus.

2. Harry is wonderful for understanding that, while he doesn't know everything he wants to know, he knows enough to be getting on with and can have faith about the rest.

3. Aberforth seems to think DD continued with his greater good ideas. I thought it seemed like DD gave up those ideas when Ariana died. DD actually put Harry's welfare above the greater good for the first 5 books. At the end of book 5 Harry finally learns his own history that DD kept from him to try to protect him.

4. Harry shows great strength in choosing yet again to continue when faced with ridicule, doubt, and even his own death.

5. NEVILLE!! :)

Chapter 28 notes:

1) The Invisibility Cloak can't be Summoned? Handy!

2) I was so surprised that the barman turned out to be Aberforth! I remember thinking, in some of my pre-DH speculations, that Aberforth would make an appearance, but I never would have thought he was the Hog's Head barman!

3) "Brains like that, you could be a Death Eater, son" -- at that line, I knew that this was a character I was just going to love! Aberforth gets all of the great funny lines.

4) "Thought the sun shone out of my brother's every orifice, he did" -- this cracks me up. I will have to use it some day, if the opportunity presents itself -- and if I can say it with a straight face!

5) In Aberforth's description, Albus sounds a bit like Percy Weasley, actually -- holed up in his room, being studious and a bit pompous.

6) Okay, this breaks all of the rules about how pictures work. I think they go into more detail about how the passage works in the next chapter, so I may continue to rant then, but the fact that the painting of Ariana and the real live Neville can walk together through some sort of passage that's created by the linked paintings stretches my credulity.

7) Neville! More about him later, but I'm so glad to see him.

Why didn't they think the whole Hermione dressed up as Beelatrix thing through? They spend days on end locked up in that bedroom, and never once did they think something like this might happen?
I love when Harry explains what that potion did to DD by the lake in HBP to Aberforth and the others. My jaw dropped when I read this. How does Harry know what it did before we as readers do? But, that's the beauty of it.

30.5 Good point about Percy and Dumbledore! Like Dumbledore, Percy also eventually sees the error of his ways.

30.6 Not to mention that they are on the second floor of the Hogshead. Must be a very magical passage.

30.1 I think that's put in to prove to us that Harry's cloak is the Hallow. Magic can't be cast on the cloak.

I have notes. I'm going to finish catching up on all the threads and I'll be back!

Yay, Bib! We've missed you on this thread! And I agree about 30.1 -- I just also think it's a handy side-effect of the cloak being the hallow.

Chap. 25:

1. I remember thinking Harry's plan was pretty smart, and hating myself for liking it!

2. I wonder if I would still enjoy cooking if I could use magic. Having the knives chop by themselves, not having to wait for pans to heat....it sounds less fun!

3. And I'm crying again. Stupid baby!

4. I love the description of the impromptu party. It's great to have some happiness in the fact of fear and despair and I think JKR did an awesome job of evoking that feeling of euphoria that not everything in the world sucks!

Hooray! Bib's back!

On cooking: There are still varying degrees of skill level that go with cooking by magic. Mrs. Weasley is terrific at it, Hermione less so. I think I'd still love cooking because there remain the subtleties and skill that make good food become great food.

Also, just because you could cook with magic doesn't mean you have to. Electric ovens make baking, a heck of a lot easier than using a Dutch Oven. But if you are inclined, you can still make a mighty fine cobbler in a Dutch Oven.

Mrs. Espy says she would like to have magic put food into the oven and take it back out. Fewer burns. (Magic could also heal any burns she sustained.)

Glad to see you back Bib!

Ahhh...it's true espy. In fact, given the choice, I would probably cook most things on an open fire and be perfectly happy.

I meant to post my Chap. 26 notes last night when I got home from the concert, but it was late and I was tired. I'll have to post them tonight. I'll just drag it out so you'll all be in terrible suspense as to what brilliant observations I might have made! ;D

Chap. 26:

1. Why didn't Harry and Hermione just transfigure themselves in Godric's Hollow? They were using the cloak anyway, it seems like they would really only need to do a couple things to their faces and they'd be fine. What a waste of Polyjuice Potion!

2. Hermione is not a good actress.

3. Why did she whisper levicorpus? It's a nonvbl spell. It's not like her saying it gave Harry time to prepare or anything. Can you not "Wingardium Leviosa" a person? Wouldn't that have been a bit more controlled?

4. What an awesome escape. I must say, that's one thing I'm not too concerned about the movie messing up. Based on GoF, I'm thinking they'll love playing with dragon riding!

I just looked at the rest of my notes and I'll just post them too. Chap. 27:

1. Voldy cam sure is handy.

Chapter 28:

1. I know from reading the old threads, that most of you had it figured out, but I'll admit, I was completely surprised about Aberforth. (Over use of commas, I know, but, I, can't, stop,)

2. Quick thinking with the goat/stag thing and the cat.

3. NEVILLE!!! (Seriously, I wrote it down, I'm not just copying!)

#40.3 -- That was my entire written note (NEVILLE!!!), I just expanded on it when I transferred the notes to the thread. :-) I think that's the point where I realized how much I'd been missing Hogwarts. I know they had to be elsewhere, but I was really sad that they spent so much time away from Hogwarts in this book.

For me, it was the moment I realized I'm a little in love with Neville. In a platonic way, but still, I had no idea how much I cared about him until he showed up again.

41: Foggi, I really missed Hogwarts up to this point. In the other books I never really felt the story started until they got there. I wasn't into the first book at all until he was at school, and even with the great Quidditch Cup stuff in book four I still couldn't wait for school. It is good to be back there now

42: Bib, Then when I heard all the great great stuff he had been doing (like "Dumbledore's Army, Now Recruiting") I love him even more.

lol, bib & foggi that was my entire written note too. We all just think so much alike! ;)

I agree, the stag/goat and cat scheme was pretty good. And I only knew about Aberforth because someone told me. I wasn't sure if it was a joke at the time. Obviously, it was not.

Bib, you're right that the movie makers will probably get the escape by dragon to a T (unless they draw it out to all eternity).

Yes, the escape on a dragon is one of the two scenes from this book that I think will translate spectacularly to film. (We haven't gotten to the other one yet -- guesses?)

#45

Harry's conversation with DD in King's Cross Station?

ETA: The hellfiendfire scene in the room of requirement is my real guess.

Given that it has been stated that they will split the last book into two movies, I wonder if they'll try to make the escape from Gringott's the climax of the first movie. It would seem to be too late in the book for that though unless they really take a lot of time for the Battle of Hogwarts (and a lot of trimming of the earlier parts).

#47 -- Yes, the Fiendfyre and Harry's dramatic catch-the-diadem -and- rescue-Draco move is the other dramatic moment. Harry's conversation with DD is liable to make me cringe, considering how I feel about Gambon's portrayal of DD, but maybe he will surprise me.

#48 -- I was wondering the same thing. Maye they will split it after the destruction of the locket? I was also thinking they could split it after the escape from Malfoy Manor, but that either ends one movie or begins the next with Dobby's death, unless they mess with the plot considerably.

I can see definite possibilities for ending it after Dobby's death.

Harry digs Dobby's grave and tries to figure out what he's going to do next while Voldy's thoughts about the Horcrux race through his brain he stands and walks into the house and makes his big decision: "I need to talk to Griphook." *Cue dramatic music and titles*

Makes a great hook for the next movie. You have plenty of time to ease people in with planning and the conversations with both Griphook and Olivander. I also think the scenes of Voldy finding the Elder Wand will also be a great way to segue back into the movie.

I could also see it ending after the tension of Ron breaking the Horcrux, but I don't know where they would put Hermione beating the crap out of him.

Don't forget to read, everyone -- chapters 29 to *sob* 32 coming up, and no big-deal book release to distract you this weekend! ;-)