December Read: The Death of Sweet Mister

Welcome to all you new folks! I know, December is a rough month to find time to read, but you need to decompress once in a while, and The Death of Sweet Mister by Daniel Woodrell is a short book, and we're giving you almost a whole month to read it!

We'll all post comments on this thread, and try to avoid spoilers. Since it's so short, we won't break it up into chapters. Just post what you want and when, and we'll discuss the book as a whole after the Christmas weekend.

I'm looking forward to chatting with all of you again!

I'm waiting for my copy from the library. I have a few books lined up to read before I get to this one, but will be ready for the post-Christmas discussion.

I've got my book checked out of the library, but also have a few others to read first. It looks short and fast to read, maybe only a couple of days. I'll be ready after Christmas.

I still need to rustle up a copy, but I'll have it read by the end of the month.

I picked this up at the library and you're right, it does look quite short. I note that they had quite a few other titles by this author too.

When does the discussion start? I have it til 12/27 but should be able to renew it.

#5 Linda, I think we're aiming for a 12/28 start - after Christmas weekend - but go ahead and post earlier if you need to return the book. I'm glad you decided to squeeze us in - I know you've got a full schedule of books to finish before year end.

I've picked up my copy and am about halfway through it. Initial thoughts - it is a super quick read, and Woodrell's writing is amazing once again. I have a hard time putting it down. I'm picking up on a really yucky thread in the book, and really hope he doesn't go anywhere with it.

> 7 I think I'm getting the same vibe and also hoping that is not where he is going!

You guys have fun and thank you so much for the invite! I've gotten so busy lately that I've been totaly neglecting my librarything friends (but not books) :) I hope you enjoy the read and I can't wait to read your comments. I really like the last book of his i read!

I was able to obtain a copy of the book from my library. My daughter and family arrive tomorrow, so the next week will be hectic, but after that I'll be sure to join in the discussion.

I'm just sitting down to start reading The Death of Sweet Mister. This sounds like something that should take only a day or two, to read.

I read this in one sitting. Disturbing but powerful. Ready to talk more about it.

Well, today is the day, so let's start talking! Linda, I agree completely with your "disturbing but powerful" statement. It doesn't seem right to say I "liked" the book, but it has certainly made a strong impression on me. Like you, I read it in one sitting.

I suspect that from here on out there will be spoilers, so if you haven't finished, stop reading here!!!

To start with, was anyone as startled as I was to realize the meaning of the title? The ending threw me completely off guard. Did you expect that to happen?

I just finished the book - also read in a single sitting. I didn't expect to love the book, but was disappointed all the same. I liked Winter's Bone much better. The writing is still strong, but these characters seemed to lack all humanity.

The ending was a surprise. It is what I was dreading for the whole book and had finally decided that it wouldn't happen. But, I don't know if that was the meaning referred to in the title. Well, not exactly. I can't take credit for the insight - I think I saw it in a review on the library catalog when I ordered the book - but it seems that Shug's death occurs bit by bit throughout the book. It only becomes complete at the end - when he finally sank to the level of depravity that the adults in his life have been displaying all along.

I was a little unclear about some of the relationships - Grandma is Red's mother, and Carl is is brother - right? I thought for a while that she was Glenda's mother. And Red and Glenda were married before Shug was born? Again, I thought that Shug was Glenda's son before she "married" Red (still not sure if that is the legal relationship here). The cast of characters is much simpler here than in Winter's Bone, isn't it?

Linda - welcome to Missouri - the Show-Me State. It's not enough to just hint at something awful....

Sandy, it was well done but way too disturbing for me to "like" it.

I was put off by how he constantly used the word "did" but decided that maybe they do that in the Ozarks. For instance, he did give me the Grit bag.

For quite awhile, I thought Shug would die, ehnce the title, but that seemed too obvious and, when Red was killed, I suddenly thought that couldn't be right and suspected what did actually happen.

Yes, I think Grandma is Red and Carl's mother. I thought that Shug was Glenda's son, but not Red's.

From reading that review, I knew that Shug didn't die, so I never considered that. But, that would have been a feasible ending. I wish I hadn't had that possibility spoiled for me.

I've never heard that speech pattern, but I've never been around the locals who live in the hills in the Ozarks. Folks in the cities speak normally. I noticed it too, and wonder why he wrote it that way.

As far as too disturbing - I was prepared for the subject to be ugly - the other Woodrell book we read was also pretty disturbing in the way it dealt so casually with drug use and lack of concern for the welfare of children. But there were at least a couple of characters who were aware that there was a better life out there somewhere and had hopes of achieving it. What I didn't like about this book was that there was absolutely no hope of escaping - something better just doesn't exist for Shug - even in his dreams.

I'd agree with that, Sandy. No hope of escaping, no dreams.

I thought that, when Carl came back, Sugg going into the military might be a possibility, down the road but that was never his dream, just something tossed out there.

Did anyone actually like any of these characters? I didn't, not really.

Not me - not at all.

I didn't like the characters either, but I sure felt sorry for them...even Glenda, who used her good looks and sexuality to survive. I think she did love Shug in a motherly way to the best of her ability, but was so messed up because of that horrid environment that she "went along" with the depravity.

Linda, that archaic way of speaking Shug had bothered me as well until I got used to it. I can only think that Woodrell used it as a device to let the reader know just how backward this area is. As if we couldn't figure it out! I know people from West Plains (where Woodrell is from), and they don't talk that way. But these are "hill" people so who knows.

>16 sjmccreary: absolutely no hope of escaping - something better just doesn't exist for Shug - even in his dreams

The fact that merely surviving was all that any of these characters could hope for was was tragic and depressing as hell, but I think that was the point. I felt trapped right along with them!

But I did like Winter's Bone much better. For one thing, it seems to me the characters had more depth in that book. I could not take a steady diet of his stories, but I'll certainly be reading other books by Woodrell.

I didn't read any reviews ahead of time, so the whole book I was expecting an actual death. I agree with Sandy, I think his "death" progressed as the book went on, but (forgetting for a while that I was reading Daniel Woodrell!) I actually had some hope that Glenda would escape with Jimmy. I should have known. However, I did NOT see Shuggie as being her destruction. Maybe I'm too naive.
I preferred this to Winter's Bone but that may be because it was shorter and easier for me to keep track of the characters. At least I didn't have so many unanswered questions at the end of this.
As far as relationships, I had the impression that Shuggie was the result of an affair Glenda had with someone in a different class (I had to return the book, so I can't remember the name). I think that all along, she had hope of escape, but she just didn't have the confidence or strength to pull herself out of it.

I hope our next book is a little lighter...we have some great ideas on the suggestion page. To change the subject a little, do we want to aim for one book a month or less frequently?

Exactly where are the Ozarks? Is that the part of Missouri near Arkansas? I was wondering if I'd been in the Ozarks when I was in Branson or maybe when we drove through eastern Missouri, from Southern Illinois down to Arkansas and then Memphis. Just trying to picture it.

Of them all, Glenda was probably the character that I came closest to liking. But not that close.

>22 lindapanzo:: You're right on target, Linda. Branson and points south and east are considered to be the Ozarks. Just picture hills, rivers, and bluffs with lots of trees. I live in Springfield which is about 40 miles north of Branson.

As far as characters go, I wish we had learned more about Red's friend. I forget his name and my book is back at the library. It seemed like he might have been an okay kind of guy without Red's influence.

>21 tloeffler:: Are we going to read The Moonflower Vine next? It would be a complete change of pace from the Woodrell books. I'm afraid if we read one a month, we will run out of Missouri books. How about every two months, starting in early February?

Red's friend and Carl were two characters I would've liked to have seen more of.

Either here, or elsewhere, I said something to the effect that this was not my usual type of book. If I weren't reading it for this group, I probably would not have continued with it. Even though it was disturbing, I'm glad I went through with it.

I can't imagine living life in a hopeless manner, without dreams, so it's probably good to realize that some people do, or are forced to, live that way.

I don't have too much to add to what has been said already - the whole book I was afraid it would end the way it did (although I didn't see Red's death coming). I agree that the writing was very good, and I'll still read more of Woodrell's books, but this one didn't work at all for me. Maybe it was the hopelessness, and certainly the ending made me almost ill.

I have a hard time liking books when I loathe the characters, and I didn't find Shug sympathetic at all. Stealing the drugs from the poor sick kid - I know he didn't have a choice, but still.

Also, starting The Moonflower Vine in February works for me!

Jennifer, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with this reaction. I was prepared for unpleasant characters and distasteful subjects, and the book was well-written, but this one was just too much for me. The hopelessness was a big part of it. That ending scene, coming at the end, just drew attention to the fact that Glenda has given up. If it had come earlier in the book, it could have been a roadblock to overcome and move past.

I agree that Glenda is the only one who is even a little bit sympathetic - but not very much. She wants to be rescued but isn't willing to save herself. But she is the only one in the book who seems to realize that there might be another life. She makes little sounds in defense of Shuggie, but does little to protect him. In the end, I thought she was the most pathetic character of all.

I thought it was interesting that Red's friend (Basil) so easily cleaned himself up when he thought Red was coming back, but was back to normal as soon as he realized that Red was gone for good.

What did you think of Jimmy Vin Pearce? Was he just using Glenda, like all the other guys, or did he genuinely care for her as she wanted to believe?

I've got Moonflower Vine on hold at the library. I think it will come fairly soon, so early February will be perfect. I'm definitely ready for something more positive! I think a pace of 6 or 7 books a year sounds about right.

I'll have to look for Moonflower Vine. Maybe put a reserve on it at the library beginning around February 1.

I got The Moonflower Vine for Christmas, so I'm ready whenever. Early February works great!

#26 I found it hard to tell about Jimmy. He seemed to come from a different class, so, although he may not have cared about Glenda in the way she wanted to believe, life with him would have certainly been different than life with Red (better, I'd like to think).

If you had to take the story out another 5 years, what would you predict the situation would be then? Would Glenda have drank herself to death by then? Would Shuggie tire of her as she aged? Would she have ever escaped? Would he?

Some interesting things to think about...

That's an interesting question, Terri. Five years out - Shuggie be 18 - I think he would have tired of Glenda long since, and turned out to be as bad as Red or worse. Maybe he would partner with Basil, taking Red's place in their old enterprise. I doubt he would ever escape - or even want to. Good grief, thinking about his future is as depressing as reading the book was!

>28 tloeffler:: I shudder to think about the 5-year-later scenario. I just hope there are no little Shuggies in the picture.

>26 sjmccreary:: Jimmy (or Thunderbird guy as I call him) got a lot more than he bargained for in Glenda. He's another character that I wish Woodrell had drawn out more.

>25 jfetting:: I have a hard time liking books when I loathe the characters...I am with you on that one, Jennifer, but in this case I hated the situation more than the characters. To me, Red was the only one past redemption. He kind of reminded me of Finn -- remember Huck's Daddy?

I read such good things about The Moonflower Vine that I ordered it with my Christmas B&N book card. I am glad we are leaving the dark side of Missouri behind for awhile.

Was this one of Woodrell's early books? It seems we've made several comments about details not being as fully developed as they could have been, or as much as they were in Winter's Bone.

Moonflower Vine was waiting for me when I went to the library today, so I'll for sure have it finished by Feb 1.

I found a bibliography that showed: Woe to Live On--1987; Give Us A Kiss--1996; Tomato Red--1998; The Death of Sweet Mister--2001; and Winter's Bone--2006. So Winter's Bone probably would have been more "developed" than this book, although I've not read any of the earlier ones to compare it to.

Another thought might be that he intentionally didn't develop the details, first, since the subject matter was so intense, and second, because they aren't very well-developed people. Although I had that same complaint about Winter's Bone. There was too much left unsaid in that book.

Moonflower Vine must be quite a book. On Amazon, 31 out of 35 reviews are 5-star reviews. It must be quite a book!! I'm looking forward to reading it.

>32 tloeffler:: Thanks for doing the research, Terri. I'm pretty lazy (i.e., bloated with Christmas goodies) these days and only thought about looking up the chronology of Woodrell's books. I think that these kind of open-ended books make for the best discussions.

>33 lindapanzo:: Linda, I went ahead and bought The Moonflower Vine on the assumption that this is the kind of book I will love and want to loan out to my bookish friends. This one should definitely lead to more uplifting conversations.

I hope to finish The Death of Sweet Mister in about an hour. For now, here are some of my thoughts:

a) there seems to be a lot of sexual, creepy tension of "sweet mister" directed toward his mother, who is very inappropriate in her teasing and flirting and blatant overtures...I find this disturbing

b) Sadly, there are Reds in the world. The chapter when he took sweet mister fishing was tension filled. I thought he was going to drown him in order to avoid the possibility of a potential slip regarding his role in the robberies.

c) Thus far the book has this claustrophobic feel about it. It feels very incestuous in that there is no talk about friends or school or any other life for this doomed young man other than alcoholic, seductive, inappropriate momma and daddy undearest.

d) While the subject matter is VERY disturbing, the writing is so darn excellent that I keep reading.

e) Mainly, I wonder if the writer was abused as a child. He seems to have a lot of indepth knowledge about this subject. Do any of you know anything about the authors personal life?

I have one more question/comment on this book before we move to The Moonflower Vine in February.

Donna, didn't you go to a fair last year and hear Daniel Woodrell speak? Did he say anything at that time about why he writes of such dark, depressing subjects? Does he base his books on personal experience or observation or imagination? Those would be interesting things to know!

Sure did, Terri. Woodrell was at Missouri State's Literary Festival in early October. He seemed like such a normal man. :-) You know, I wish someone had specifically asked about his dark subjects.

He talked about writing about his roots and observing people and using his imagination. He also said that he doesn't plan out his books more than a chapter or two ahead of his writing. He uses the Japanese "follow the brush" approach which I translated as being led by the story and characters rather than working from a strict outline. If I get to meet him again, you can be sure that I'll ask him more questions.

On a side note, there was a big article in the Springfield newspaper on Sunday about Winter's Bone being at the Sundance Film Festival this month. We may be hearing more from Mr. Woodrell. He said that his biggest following (right now) was in France and Sweden. Not sure why.

I'm pretty new to Library Thing, but Donna found me and invited me to this group (I live in Webster Groves, MO). I'm looking forward to reading The Moonflower Vine--very positive reviews on Amazon.

Question: Do we start reading the book on Feb 1?, start posting questions/comments about the book on Feb 1?--how does this work?

Looking forward to getting to know everyone.

Welcome, Becky. I just read your profile page about your dream of a farm house in the country with room for all your books. It sounds too much like my own fantasy for me to say that it sounds crazy, so I'll just say good luck finding it and let me know if there's another one available in the neighborhood!

As far as Moonflower Vine goes, I've got it home from the library right now, so I'll be reading it in January before it's due back. We're a pretty informal group - what are everyone else's plans?

I need to wait for the Maine interlibrary loan system to bring me the book, so I don't know when I'll be reading it. :-(

ETA: I hope all you Missourians are staying warm down there! Bizarre, when Maine is one of the warmer parts of the country.

I am so NOT staying warm. This 30 below wind chill is for the birds.

I had thought we were going to start discussing on 2/1 but I'm open. I got the book for Christmas, so I can read it any time. We can start the discussion then, and leave the thread open for anyone to chime in during February. Any other thoughts?

And welcome to the group, Becky!

Brrrrr!!! I feel as though I am back in New Hampshire this week.

I read Moonflower Vine last year, through an interlibrary loan, and I loved it! I'd like to read it again, and may just have to buy my own copy.

I did just that, marise. Our library has a copy, but after I read some of the glowing reviews, I decided to use my Christmas B&N card for it (and a few other must haves). We will be gone the last week of January and will be primarily driving for that week (helping our son move from CO to Dallas). I can't read in the car (urrrp) so I probably won't start reading until the first of February.

Hi Everyone! I'd like to join you for your read of The Moonflower Vine if that's OK. I grew up in the little town of Frankford, MO (just south of Hannibal) and lived in St. Louis for a while too. I live in Iowa now, but my parents are still in Frankford, so we get back there often.

I just got my copy of The Moonflower Vine in the mail, so I'll be ready to go on February 1.

>44 porch_reader:: Hey, neighbor to the north, we're glad to have you. I have high hopes for this book.

Welcome, Amy! I'm so glad you're joining us!