On their fitness for the office of Pres. of the U.S. : Hillary Rodham Clinton vs. Donald John Trump

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On their fitness for the office of Pres. of the U.S. : Hillary Rodham Clinton vs. Donald John Trump

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1proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 11, 2016, 12:39 pm

On their fitness--or the lack of it--for the office of the Presidency of the United States of America :

In Re: "Hillary Rodham Clinton vs. Donald John Trump"

Oyez! Oyez! Oyez! All persons having business before the Honorable, the Supreme Court of THE PUBLIC OPINION of the People of the United States (and interested others around the World), are admonished to draw of near and give their attention, for the Court is now sitting. May God or Good Sense save the United States and this Honorable Court!

you may approach and proceed ...

2JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 11, 2016, 4:01 pm

> 1

I will state the obvious - donald trump is unfit to be POTUS - certainly temperamentally but mainly because he is as ignorant as your average primate in your local zoo as to how the government works or what the actual job of the POTUS entails.

trump is nothing more than a "TV personality" at a time when "TV personality" is pretty much synonymous with "the lowest type of human being one can possibly imagine outside a dictator or psychotic murderer."

HRC is fit to be POTUS because she has an obvious command of the important political issues of the day. She has demonstrated a minimum competency when she was Senator and S. of State.

However, she is "fit to be POTUS", understand, in the same sense that Richard Nixon was "fit to be POTUS".

So the point is that we need not get carried away with what a "wonderful" thing it is going to be to have her as POTUS.

Back to trump to finish - I have a great suspicion now that he is so "unfit" that he might not make it to election day - he may just have to drop out because SO MANY people will be agreeing with the concept of his "unfitness" in another month or two.

3lriley
Bearbeitet: Aug. 11, 2016, 4:47 pm

Yeah--there's got to be at least 250 million people in this country more qualified to be POTUS than Donald Trump. I'm automatically eliminating all those under 18 years of age as being too young. If you wanted to count them we're around 300 million.

The Republican party on the whole is a shitshow so it's not like I was expecting them to put up a decent candidate. That would have been asking waaaaaaaaaayyyy too much. Even so........he's astonishingly awful and perhaps even dumber than George W. Bush. The only possible candidate they have who could possibly compete with him for out and out imbecility would be Sarah Palin.

Hillary Clinton--she's corrupt and not credible--lacks any kind of integrity. You can't believe anything she says. A 2+ decades trail of lies and deceit. I don't know she might do some good things but.......

Between them both Trump seems worse but there's no way I could vote for her.

4JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 11, 2016, 7:09 pm

> 3

Yes.

And as to the last of your comments - that "there's no way I could vote for her." - unfortunately there are millions of U.S. citizens, nearly all fairly decent, fair-minded, intelligent, fairly well-educated, and politically-involved citizens who do not understand why that is - and apparently there is no way to get them to understand. To paraphrase the trump himself, if HRC shot some poor innocent motherfucker dead at high noon on Times Square there would be millions who would just soldier on and support her regardless, excusing her because, well, she is a woman after all and had to be twice as good as a man to get half as far in politics, blah, blah, blah.

That is how and why HRC got the Democratic party's nomination. That is how we got to a point in highest politics wherein our final choice on Nov. 8 is so horribly, horribly horrible.

You only have to fool some of the people some of the time to get ahead in life. That is what trump and HRC have both successfully done - SO FAR.

If Clinton (and rapist Clinton the husband) make it to the end of their public careers without paying any real penalty for their various and sundry immoral and illegal activities, then we all must acquiesce to Providence and accept that this was some sort of unavoidable destiny. Or to paraphrase D. Rumsfeld, you have to fight within the Universe you have, not the Universe you wished you had.

Namaste.

5lriley
Aug. 11, 2016, 8:06 pm

#5--I can understand why people would fear Trump as president. I don't think we're ever going to fix things though until enough people get away from this lesser evil shit. We should be better than that. That's an opinion.

There are too many things besides that need to be fixed and soon and I don't think Hillary is up to that job not when she's taking so much money from people who stand in the way of what needs to be done.

6proximity1
Aug. 12, 2016, 2:53 am

..."get away from this lesser evil shit. We should be better than that."

Yes, we should.

It's amazingly disgraceful to be such captives of these base, juvenile fears.

These impresari of our time, the dominant political elite, have so exquisitely honed their skills that they are now simply orchestrating variations on a proven theme.


"We did the "young black man, community-organizer with 'slacker-to-Ivy-League' background.' I loved doing that one; my favorite part was how the Blacks flocked to this guy who, in every respect which counts, is as "White" as any wealthy early 20th-century private country-club member ever was! God! how they still admire him!

"Okay, we'll just vary the recipe slightly. A woman--yes. That's easy. We'll have one with a sort of liberal-lefty-ish patina but who's thoroughly a sell-out--of course. After all, it's not our business to fund real opposition."

"But you're not even trying to challenge yourself. Where's the fun in it?"

"What do you suggest?"

"Well, for pity's sake!, do something interesting for once! Of course we can put up a phony liberal woman. Where's the challenge in that? How about one who's widely known and despised and distrusted? Now that has some art and interest in it. I'm bored of this easy repetitive stuff. Let's do a pseudo-Lefty PC woman who's despised as a lying bitch. Otherwise we're just shooting ducks in a barrel."

7jjwilson61
Aug. 12, 2016, 12:18 pm

Even though he uses sarcasm all the time, the one time he doesn't use it, calling Obama the founder of ISIS, is the time he claims he was being sarcastic.

8krazy4katz
Aug. 12, 2016, 9:03 pm

>6 proximity1: Obama lived in a family with White privilege "as any wealthy early 20th century private country-club member"?

Come on! Obama was raised by a single mother at a time when that was looked down upon and she had a mixed race child.

And Hillary Clinton spent a large part of her life helping children and women get ahead. She promoted health care reform as hard as she could when she was First Lady. Whatever else has happened since she was First Lady, those are facts from her earlier life. When she was a Senator she worked to help New York and was re-elected. Yes she voted for the war in Iraq, but even Colin Powell said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction so who were we to trust not to lie to us? That was a mistake and she admitted it.

When she was Secretary of State she stood up for women's rights and helped negotiate treaties on nuclear weapons. All this other stuff — some crazy, some not — who knows where it comes from? No she is not perfect, and maybe not perfectly honest — I don't know, but anyone wanting perfect should give up. She is smart and tough. AND she is not crazy.

9StormRaven
Aug. 12, 2016, 10:09 pm

There are too many things besides that need to be fixed and soon and I don't think Hillary is up to that job not when she's taking so much money from people who stand in the way of what needs to be done.

To the extent that HRC is unable to "get things done" it will be for the same reason that Obama was unable to get things done: The U.S. will saddle her with an intransigent Republican Congress full of Tea Partiers uninterested in actually governing. Obama didn't govern as a centrist because he wanted to, but rather because he was forced to do so by the Congress he had to deal with - and even that didn't work very often.

If you want a liberal President, do everything you can to secure a liberal Congress (and in a longer view, liberal State legislatures). Unless you do that, every President will seem disappointing.

10krazy4katz
Aug. 12, 2016, 10:15 pm

11proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 13, 2016, 3:11 am

>8 krazy4katz:

"Come on! Obama was raised by a single mother at a time when that was looked down upon and she had a mixed race child."

So what!?

"Come on!" ?!

You "come on!"-- since he entered politics, Obama has been, in his times, every bit as conventionally "White" as was any plantation-owner of the ante-bellum South in that time.

Obama as a kid had fuck all to do with how he was raised. As an adult politician, he's personally respsonsible for having made himself into a clone of white political establishment behaviors and views.

Your summary of HC's "accomplishments" is just pathetic.

She did that work as what we're now able to see--provided that we open our fucking eyes---was an astutely designed plan to build a résumé from which she could go on to gain office and power in her own right. Since she's had those, her own record--of which you're apparently largely ignorant*--reveals her as no real friend to anyone, man, woman or child, other than first and foremost to the wealthy.

-------

*


POLITICO Magazine
Why Some of the Smartest Progressives I Know Will Vote for Trump over Hillary

By YVES SMITH1June 01, 2016

(excerpt)
••• ••• "True progressives, as opposed to the Vichy Left, recognize that the Clintons only helped these inequities along. They recognize that, both in the 1990s and now, the Clintons do not and have never represented them. They believe the most powerful move they can take to foster change is to withhold their support.

Some of them also have very reasoned arguments for Trump. Hillary is a known evil. Trump is unknown. They'd rather bet on the unknown, since it will also send a big message to Team Dem that they can no longer abuse progressives. I personally know women in the demographic that is viewed as being solidly behind Hillary—older, professional women who live in major cities—who regard Trump as an acceptable cost of getting rid of the Clintons.

••• •••
"What they also object to is that the larger bloc of Sanders voters has been treated with abuse and contempt by the Clinton camp, despite the fact that their positions—such as strengthening Social Security and Medicare, stronger educational funding and higher minimum wages—have for decades polled by solid majorities or, at worst, ample pluralities in the electorate at large.

"By contrast, the Democratic Party in the Clinton and Obama administrations has consistently embraced and implemented policies that strip workers of economic and legal rights to benefit investors and the elite professionals that serve them. Over time, the 'neoliberal' economic order—which sees only good, never bad, in the relentless untrammeling of capital and the deregulation of markets—has created an unacceptable level of economic insecurity and distress for those outside the 1 percent and the elite professionals who serve them.

The result is that the U.S. economy is becoming lethal to the less fortunate, according to the New York Times, which reported this week that U.S. death rates have risen for the first time in a decade. The increase in death rates among less educated whites since 2001 is roughly the size of the AIDS epidemic. One cause, the opioid epidemic, resulted from Purdue Pharma overselling the effectiveness of reformulated OxyContin, then recommending higher dosages when it failed to work properly, which experts deemed a prescription for creating addicts, according to a number of lawsuits. This was permitted by the U.S. government, leading to thousands of unnecessary deaths. Despite President Barack Obama’s Panglossian claim that the economy is doing well, the spike in suicides to levels over those during the financial crisis belies that.

"Yet the Clinton campaign is in such denial about this that it has become vitriolic in its verbal and tactical attacks on Sanders and his supporters—rather than recognizing that the stunning success of his campaign is proof of their abject policy failures. The message is clear: The Clintons believe, as Bill himself put it, that the true progressives have nowhere to go.

"But in fact, they’ve been leaving. The Clinton and Obama administrations presided over the worst losses in congressional and state races in modern history in 1994, 2010 and 2012. And voter preferences were clear. Under Obama, it was the Blue Dog, Third Way Democrats who were turfed out, while candidates with strong stances on economic justice kept their seats. Similarly, as political scientist Tom Ferguson pointed out in a Roosevelt Institute paper, Obama’s loss of a Senate majority when Republican Scott Brown won in Massachusetts was the result of his focus on bailing out banks rather than aiding distressed homeowners (or forcing mortgage services to give modifications to borrowers who still had adequate income, as banks had done historically). The level of votes for Brown was strongly correlated with the amount of foreclosures in those particular districts.

"True progressives know that the Clinton and Obama presidencies have brought inequality to Gilded Era, banana-republic levels. They know that Obama’s policies, which the Clintons embrace, have had all of the post-crisis income gains accrue to the top 1 percent. In addition, corporate profits have risen to nearly double the ratio to GDP that Warren Buffett deemed unsustainably high in the early 2000s. Unlike China, they’ve also ushered in an era of high unemployment and underemployment, as reflected in unheard-of low levels of labor force participation and unemployment among the young in a nominal expansion.

"The Clintons’ dismal record, which Hillary cannot run away from, speaks for itself. And this is what makes many progressives I know unable to support her, even if she wins the nomination. Consider the reasons why they feel this way:

Social Security. Bill Clinton made a deal with Newt Gingrich to privatize Social Security, but Monica Lewinsky derailed his plans. Sanders has promised to strengthen Social Security. By contrast, Clinton wants to “preserve” it, which includes means-testing. That would put Social Security on a path to being a welfare program, not a universal safety net, making it vulnerable in the long run. Bill Clinton’s ending of welfare is an illustration of the regular pattern, dating back to England’s Poor Law of 1834, of gutting safety nets for the poor.

Climate change. Sanders calls for a full-bore, Marshall-Plan level commitment to reducing carbon output. Hillary talks about climate change but pushed for fracking in Europe while secretary of state. The Clintons remain firmly committed to fracking, which ruins water supplies and releases large amounts of methane.

Minimum wage. Inflation-adjusted minimum wage increases under Clinton were negligible—virtually identical to those under George H.W. Bush. Obama promised a minimum wage increase to $9.50 an hour and failed to act in the first four years of his presidency. Sanders wants to raise minimum wages to $15 an hour, while Clinton stands pat with the administration plan to increase wages to $12 an hour by 2020.

Trade deals. Bill Clinton ushered in NAFTA, which was touted as positive for growth and employment, and is now widely acknowledged to have cost nearly a million jobs. Even one of its chief promoters, former Clinton Labor Secretary Robert Reich, now deems it to have been a failure for American workers. Hillary consistently backed the Trans-Pacific Partnership until Sanders made an issue of it, and she’s recently returned to supporting it. The potential growth and income gains from this agreement and its European sister, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, are only marginally positive, while the loss of national sovereignty would be enormous. These agreements would enable foreign investors to challenge laws for labor, environmental and consumer protection, for threatening future profits.

Health care. Sanders wants single-payer, government-provided health care. Around the world, single payer has uncontestably demonstrated that it delivers better results overall at vastly lower cost. Obamacare took single payer off the table, instead rearranging the current costly, clumsy system while guaranteeing profits for health insurers and Big Pharma. Clinton at most has offered patches, but the pressure from Sanders has compelled her to suggest an early buy-in for Medicare.

"That’s before we get to the Clintons’ loyalty to the Robert Rubin and neoliberal fetish of balanced budgets, which most economists say are not necessary. The recent European experience with austerity shows how disastrous that approach is, particularly in the wake of a financial crisis. Hillary’s hawkishness means an even greater commitment to military spending, so voters are assured to get more guns and less butter were she to become president.

"The Sanders supporters I interact with also reject Hillary’s trickle-down feminism as a substitute for economic and social justice. Clinton is correct when she points out that there is a glass-ceiling issue for women. There are fewer female CEOs, billionaires and senators. Women in the elite don’t have it as good as men. But pray tell, what is having more women, or Hispanics or blacks, in top roles going to do for nurses and hospital orderlies, or the minority group members disproportionately represented in low-wage jobs like part-time fast food workers? Class mobility has become close to nonexistent in America. If you are born in one of the lower-income cohorts, you are almost certain to stay there.

"As a woman who broke through an important glass ceiling on Wall Street—Christina Mohr, the first woman to become partner in mergers and acquisitions at Lazard—told a shocked group at Radcliffe seeking better career opportunities for women many years ago: “Nothing will change until women own the means of production.” And that sort of change comes from the bottom up.

"Then there are questions of competence. Hillary has a résumé of glittering titles with disasters or at best thin accomplishments under each. Her vaunted co-presidency with Bill? After her first major project, health care reform, turned into such a debacle that it was impossible to broach the topic for a generation, she retreated into a more traditional first lady role. As New York senator, she accomplished less with a bigger name and from a more powerful state than Sanders did. As secretary of state, she participated and encouraged strategically pointless nation-breaking in Iraq and Syria. She bureaucratically outmaneuvered Obama, leading to U.S. intervention in Libya, which he has called the worst decision of his administration. And her plan to fob her domestic economic duties off on Bill comes off as an admission that she can’t handle being president on her own.

Mind you, these issues are all topics in the current debates. But what is as important, but not as obvious, is the way that most citizens have been stripped of legal and economic protections. As economist Michael Hudson put it, “Most inequality does not reflect differing levels of productivity, but distortions resulting from property rights or other special privileges." The Clinton era brought in weaker anti-trust enforcement, which allowed companies to accumulate more market share and with it, more ability to extract rents. Binding arbitration, which strips employees and consumers of their right to a day in court, has become widespread. Pensions, which used to be sacrosanct (and still are if you are a CEO), are regularly renegotiated. Banks got away with predatory servicing and wrongful foreclosures. Not only was the 2012 National Mortgage Settlement a “get out of liability almost free” card so large that it was tantamount to a second bailout, but banks were not required to fix their faulty servicing platforms, assuring that they’d revert to foreclosure abuses again when delinquencies rise. And let us not forget that senior bankers are a protected class, exempt from prosecution.

Finally, there is the stench of corruption, dating back to Hillary’s impossible—by any legitimate means—trick of parlaying $1,000 into $100,000 in a series of commodities trades in 1978. The Clintons and their backers seriously expect the rubes to believe that large financial firms happily forked over their hefty speaking fees purely out of interest in what they had to say, or that Middle Eastern and Taiwanese moneybags gave big bucks to the Clinton Foundation while Hillary was
secretary of state out of their deep belief in the foundation’s lofty goals. Why has Hillary refused to release the transcripts of her Goldman speeches, wiped her server and foot-dragged on releasing allegedly personal emails?


The Sanders voters in Naked Capitalism’s active commentariat also explicitly reject lesser-evilism, the cudgel that has previously kept true lefties somewhat in line. They are willing to gamble, given that outsider presidents like Jimmy Carter and celebrity governors like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jesse Ventura didn’t get much done, that a Trump presidency represents an acceptable cost of inflicting punishment on the Democratic Party for 20 years of selling out ordinary Americans.

The Clintons, like the Bourbons before the French Revolution, have ensconced themselves in such a bubble of operative and media sycophancy that they’ve mistakenly viewed escalating distress and legitimate demands from citizens as mere noise. Sanders voters are taking their cue from Talleyrand, the statesman who navigated the Revolution and the turbulent 50 years that followed with remarkable success: “I have never abandoned a party before it abandoned itself.”

If my readers are representative, Clinton and the Democratic Party are about to have a long-overdue day of reckoning."

1 : "Yves Smith" is the pen name of Susan Webber, a principal of Aurora Advisors and publisher of the Naked Capitalism economics blog.

© 2016 POLITICO LLC

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/wall-street-2016-donald-trump-hil...

12SimonW11
Aug. 13, 2016, 3:27 am

"no real friend to anyone, man, woman or child, other than first and foremost to the wealthy"?

Her policies tell a different story:

Early childhood education.

expanded social security provision for carers who were not able to contribute.

free tuition for familys with income up to 125,000 in state colleges and universities.

paid sick and family leave.

13proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 13, 2016, 4:59 am

>12 SimonW11:

There are actually two--maybe three--scandals lurking within this:

1) It's a scandal that such paltry stuff can be cited as though it's a noteworthy achievement for her decades-long career in public life.

2) It's a scandal it's not widely seen as paltry when it is just that.

3) It's a scandal what Clinton did and still does --and shall later continue to--accept in trade just so that she (and you, on her behalf) could attempt to cite such stuff as entitling and justifying her now being ushered into the role she views as hers by natural right--with an arrogance that borders on the sublime.

What she gave away in return--and it's this which so completely relegates these items to their paltry state--is, very simply, "everything." She's now completely the creature of the forces she had to struggle against in order to win those items you cite.

She's now an utter sell-out as a public political figure. She's now doing things which create harms and injuries to millions which go far beyond what these measures have done, now do and in the future shall do to help them. So she's taken away with one hand more than what she'd previously worked to "give" with the other hand. If we weigh up both sides of the ledger--the credits and the debits--the American people are significantly worse off today for the Clintons' careers in politics. Much worse off. And very obviously they're not done sowing harm. And we're not done reaping it.

And for such petty "good" stuff, you're going to ignore all the rest and vote for her--negating, in the same act, any hope of getting better than her truly shitty example of what a good Democrat is and ought to be.

14SimonW11
Aug. 13, 2016, 5:02 am

Could you be more specific than "everything"? Underwear maybe? Or the third Amendment? The national helium reserve? All of the above? What exactly is she giving away?

15proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 13, 2016, 5:20 am


>14 SimonW11:

I don't see how I could be clearer. She gave up in trade her identity as a liberal defender of the very sort of things you cite in her favor. Today, if necessary to advance her career further, she'd not hesitate to shit-can those achievements because, from the first, everything she did was a calculated part of her career-advancement plans.

"Everything" means she re-made herself into her present Republican-lite person. I think you fein not understanding this and I a way I almost don't blame you. It's disgusting to have to look the facts square in the face and then defend and support this woman who, to advance her career, blocked a far better candidate.

Yes. I'd be ashamed and might fein not seeing the point.

Now if, instead, you'd argued, "Look, I'm part of the .1%--much closer to HRC than to you and your concerns," I could respect that.

16SimonW11
Aug. 13, 2016, 6:02 am

"She gave up in trade her identity as a liberal defender of the very sort of things you cite in her favor."

The things I cite?
She gave up free education for the poor... even though it its in her policy?

She gave up free preschool a education... even though its in her policies?

she gave up on expanding social security to people who were unable to contribute through no fault of their own... even though it is inher polices?

she gave up on paid sick leaves and parental leave... Even though it is in her policies?

Nope sorry she has has not given up on any of those things... They are all in her policies.

17lriley
Bearbeitet: Aug. 13, 2016, 6:54 am

#9--I thought that Hillary Clinton knew how to work to get things done with Republicans? Does she really need a liberal congress for a centrist pro corporatist government?

'If you want a liberal president do everything you can to secure a liberal congress'--Nice--I like that--but I don't think it's true.

......going by your logic we can disassociate a large % of democratic lawmakers from the term 'liberal' then. They'd need replacing with better liberals. Recent history--the 102nd congress that ushered in Bill Clinton's presidency had strong democratic majorities in both the house (259 Dem-176 Rep) and senate (57 Dem and 43 Rep). What we got from the Clinton white house--Glass Steagall killed and the unpopular Nafta passed and ratified into law. Later on we got the crime bill--more neo-liberal trade bills--intervention in Yugoslavia--drone strikes in the Sudan and Afghanistan. Scandals galore. Very little liberal policy.

In 2009 the 111th congress ushered in Barack Obama and his 'supposedly' liberal (leftist)) agenda. The makeup of the 111th congress was remarkably similar to the congress that Bill Clinton came in with. 256 Democrats-178 Republicans in the House.The Senate went up and down for a few months (disputes over vote tallies--Al Franken etc. etc.) but eventually the Democrats had as many as 58 senators. What the country got out of that was Bank bailouts and the hapless Dodd/Frank which did almost nothing to rein in Wall St. and its speculating and that has left those banks that were targeted even bigger now than they were before they crashed the economy. Sorry Barney--you're not interesting--you're a failure.

I don't know if before you go to bed at night that you kneel down and pray to the democratic party gods---I will say if you do it's not working. Maybe there's something to this 'establishment' critique and that the likes of the Harry Reid's and Nancy Pelosi's aren't really interested in change beyond the incremental? In 2011 Obama had the chance to incorporate an entire Occupy movement and use it as a wedge against the republican party to move towards a better health care system--instead of the compromised system he finally got--to use that towards restructuring student loan debt and rebuilding American infrastructure. He was no longer interested in really fighting for the people's interests anymore at that point in time though. His 2012 campaign for re-election was much less about individual donors and much much more about sucking up to corporations to finance his re-election--which is to say he sold out.

Looking to the future--one can blame Rick Snyder for the Flint water debacle but the Obama administrations failure to invest in his promised American infrastructure renewal certainly helped set the stage for that outcome and there will be more problems with water, roads, bridges, airports, schools etc. unless and until we start investing in these things. As the 103rd and 111th congress has shown large majorities of democratic legislators don't necessarily mean these things will be fixed. And if 6 years from now in Hillary's second term we've had 4 feet of sea level rise (or more) and populations driven inland and maybe a nuclear power plant disaster (or two) is Hillary Clinton going to finally move to ban fracking and will her new democratic majority supreme court with Merrick Garland now the deciding vote going to decide against corporate interests even if the chamber they're sitting in is a foot deep in sea water? That's a question and I'm not sure what the answer will be.

There's a whole pile of other issues we could go into but why even bother. As you say a 'liberal' president will do 'liberal' things with a 'liberal' congress. I wish I had the same faith.

18StormRaven
Bearbeitet: Aug. 13, 2016, 11:10 am

I thought that Hillary Clinton knew how to work to get things done with Republicans? Does she really need a liberal congress for a centrist pro corporatist government?

Yes. Because the intransigent wing of the Republican caucuses is large enough to boot out the Speaker of the House if he compromises on anything. We've seen it happen to Boehner, and it will happen again to Ryan if he agrees to work with a Democratic President.

'If you want a liberal president do everything you can to secure a liberal congress'--Nice--I like that--but I don't think it's true.

What you "think" doesn't matter, because you appear to not know the history that you are trying to point to.

What we got from the Clinton white house--Glass Steagall killed and the unpopular Nafta passed and ratified into law.

TARP, the bank bailout you deride, was enacted under Bush, not Obama. If you're going to histrionically wail about actions taken, you should at least attribute them to the correct time period.

Glass-Steagall was repealed in 1999, after the Republicans has taken over the House and Senate. In fact, most of the legislation you listed was passed when a Democratic President faced a hostile Republican Congress. Your own examples prove my point.

And it is easy to throw rocks when one doesn't really look at what legislation actually included. The Crime Bill, for example, included the assault weapons ban and the Violence Against Women Act as well as provisions to increase training for police officers to encourage community policing. The bill was at least in part a compromise to get those things passed. Political reality will always disappoint a purist ideologue.

one can blame Rick Snyder for the Flint water debacle but the Obama administrations failure to invest in his promised American infrastructure renewal certainly helped set the stage for that outcome and there will be more problems with water, roads, bridges, airports, schools etc. unless and until we start investing in these things.

How does the Obama administration invest in such things when Congress refuses to appropriate money to do so? Spending is controlled by Congress, and Congress has refused to provide funding for infrastructure improvements. This is why you will never have a President who executes liberal policies while you have a conservative Congress - the Congress will simply not fund the President's priorities. This is a fact that will not change no matter how many times you stomp your feet and pull the lever for a Green candidate for President.

Merrick Garland now the deciding vote

Garland was a compromise choice intended to be palatable to a Republican Senate. Without the need to get a confirmation from a Senate controlled by the Republican Party, Obama would almost certainly have nominated someone else - someone much more liberal. Once again, your examples serve to prove my point.

19JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 13, 2016, 2:33 pm

(In a fair and just universe ruled over by a beneficent and benevolent god the Clintons would be in jail now and trump would have been stillborn. Unfortunately we live in an amoral deterministic universe (on the macro-level) described by Einstein so we must deal with our "shit happens - ALOT" universe of reality. That being said, moving on...........)

- Having studied the situation over the years to nearly the depth that proximity1 obviously has I agree with his assessment of HRC. She is actually the brains of the Clinton machine, Bill being her top and pretty much indispensable operative.

Obviously, since picking at some point the ploy of appearing in public to be a liberal progressive Democrat, she comes through to some degree on performance - catering to her worshipping constituents, doing the minimum to establish her bona fides with them and the media.

For the last few decades she has just followed the polls in order to achieve her only goals in life - to achieve more political power, more ability to sell political influence, more ability to achieve riches beyond her teenage dreams, and luxuriating in all the accumulated wealth - but still, always greedy for more.

(As an e.g., she only stays in the Presidential suite of the top rated hotel in each city when there - and, if it is not available she does not take second best but moves to the Presidential suite of the next highest rated hotel. And, as you can assume, the expense account of the Clinton Foundation is beyond exorbitant.)

Regarding following the polls for years she was very much against gay marriage and said exactly that in multiple public venues - even smiling at the boos in various audiences because she knew opposing gay marriage was the smart political position - UNTIL it became a majority excepted view - THEN she WAS foursquare FOR gay marriage.

But the sick part is, even though there is loads of video of her denouncing gay marriage, she now insists - and I mean INSISTS - that she has ALWAYS been FOR gay marriage, and waxes quite angry and defensive even when a "liberal" media person asks her about this lie. She denounces the questioner and lies right into the camera - as if the multiple videos do not exist.

Ditto with the issue of the TPP. And NAFTA. And a host of other policy issues.

She has ONLY admitted she voted for the Iraq war, basically because she could not lie her way out of such a high profile subject - but she figured she had nothing to lose since so many had also done so, both republican and democrat.

Otherwise she is pretty much a serial liar.

This blatant lying in the face of video evidence to the contrary is why I consider her a sociopath instead of a mere good example of narcissistic personality disorder. For that, and a whole lot of other evil that I and proximity1 are familiar with but the rest of you in general are ignorant of - you who just dismiss ANY negative criticism of HRC as just Faux Noise propaganda, being the fooled and foolish fools that you are. lol.

Nevertheless I disagree with the idea that taking a chance on trump is worth it to prevent the pieces-of-shit Clintons - including their horrible daughter - from achieving white house power - again.

I think the Clintons are the evil and horrible price we will have to pay to stop trump. HRC would have beaten any republican, yes, but beating trump should be a cinch. But we shall see. It is still possible that the ultimate insanity of a Pres. trump could happen. I have no problem that such might happen in some other of the multi-universes but I sure as hell would hate it if it happened here.

In a nutshell the Clintons are the lesser of evil. I don't see how new information coming forth in the future is going to change my mind on this - or change the minds of the majority of people. I think HRC's present lead will hold up.

But proximity1 is not going to give it up and will continue with his pitch. As he is obviously irritating the living shit out of all the HillaryBots here - well, then, I can certainly approve of that.

Take it to those motherfuckers, proximity1. LOL.

20RickHarsch
Aug. 13, 2016, 1:28 pm

>19 JGL53: One correction: as far as I can glean proximity1 goes primarily unread. I read yours because they so often delight. Living in Slovenia I have but a spavined mule in this race, figuring a few more people I like will be better off under Clinton. As for crimes, I look forward to a Clinton crimes thread for the lazy reader. After the Bush era, which in your benevolent godworld would have dozens hanging themselves pre-trial at The Hague, why would anyone be surprised at criminal acts committed well by politicians? And of course Obama kills innocent people with his beloved drones, and has since his first two weeks in office, making him by any rational standard a war criminal--why not believe Clinton is also a criminal. After all, she soon will be. The froth you describe is probably best taken as 'Can you shut up til after the election.'

22JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 13, 2016, 3:14 pm

> 20

OK.

But as for Obama being a war criminal, surely he is one IF Abe Lincoln, both T. and F. Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Johnson, Nixon, Bushes Jr. and Sr., and Bill Clinton are likewise war criminals.

By the same criterion I am a war criminal, in the sense of being one of the supporters and thus enablers (regarding Clinton and Obama, that is).

As to "a Clinton crimes thread for the lazy reader" - Many if not most of their actual crimes are rather boring. This is the era of excitement. If something is boring, even if it is radically important, most people don't want it. Most Americans have attention spans that can handle "boring" for a maximum of about three-quarters of a minute, then the channel WILL be changed, even if it is news of life and death importance.

In the spirit of that I am going to start a thread (actually Part I and II because of length) by posting the latest list of murders allegedly committed by the Clintons, all of which are believed as gospel by teabagger I.Q. level republicans and conspiracy freaks in general. This is one reason the hatred of the Clintons is SO intense among millions. I mean, how would you feel about having serial murderers in the White House running things? That would be pretty fucking scary, huh? Probably make you quite angry, right?

This will be for entertainment purposes only. People who will bother to attack me are just wasting their time. So fuck youse guys in advance.

I'll say this, though: Let's assume none of these people were murdered by the Clintons. That's pretty reasonable, right?

OK. But what if we assume that the basic facts are not made up out of whole cloth? What if each of the listed people were real people and they are now dead of some cause - suicide, murder by an apolitical mugger, heart attack, accident around the house, car crash, plane crash - all just understandable happenstances, just like if you or I might kick the bucket or buy the farm in some serendipitous way in the next few minutes or months or whatever?

In any event I still find some of the circumstances rather strange surrounding some of the deaths.

E.G., autopsies of people being shot twice - sometimes with two different guns - coming out as "suicide". And the many people who died just before they were due to testify against the Clintons or their buddies. How many times does that need to occur before even a reasonable non-conspiracy freak will see good reason to be suspicious of nefarious non-supernatural forces at work?

Just saying.

23RickHarsch
Aug. 13, 2016, 6:25 pm

>22 JGL53: So you don't buy the double shot suicide theory---if I were going to shoot myself I'd use two guns for sure.

war criminal: killing Pakistani civilians by drone to start with...

24SimonW11
Aug. 13, 2016, 6:29 pm

There is one on every bus.

25JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 13, 2016, 7:45 pm

> 23

And again, if Obama is to be viewed as a war criminal then so are all the Presidents I list at he beginning of post # 22.

26RickHarsch
Aug. 13, 2016, 7:28 pm

>24 SimonW11: good point. I have no idea the number of vehicles hit by drones. But Bush's first drone kill--as far as I know--(in 2002) was in Yemen. They got their man, and five others in a car with him. Not many people would argue that the killing was legal in the international sense (certainly it violated Yemeni law).

27proximity1
Aug. 14, 2016, 8:28 am

>21 proximity1:

Really! ? No one here saw fit to read & offer a critique of the linked opinion article by Thomas Frank? !

Neither a "pro" nor a "con" comment on it? For all his insights and good intentions, I found a good deal to dispute in his analysis and I really think he misses the point about Trump.

And no one else found anything worth saying about it?

28RickHarsch
Aug. 14, 2016, 9:44 am

>28 RickHarsch: Sometimes the reader chooses articles by trusted sources of links. Sometimes posters post oblivious to their potential readers. Sometimes they post veritable tomes in a real vacuum. When they post links, often these links are ignored.

29krazy4katz
Aug. 14, 2016, 12:55 pm

>27 proximity1: It appears to be supposition mostly. Will HRC move to the left or the right on different issues? A lot depends on what kind of Congress she will have to deal with.

30proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 15, 2016, 1:12 am

>21 proximity1: & >27 proximity1:

Thomas Frank has much better motives and intentions behind his laments over Trump's behavior as a presidential candidate than do the majority of his professional peers; but he makes the same errors of reasoning as they do none the less.

It is hardly a secret that Frank's peers in political commentary have been quite eager to see Donald Trump's candidacy self-destruct and are now delighted at what they regard, perhaps prematurely, perhaps mistakenly, as the incontrovertible evidence that it is doing just that. Frank, meanwhile, criticizes Trump's performance because he'd like to see the Trump campaign pose a much more serious challenge to the Clintons' complacent design to carry on with corrupt and unresponsive Washington politics as usual.

Thus, Trump's incorrigible unorthodoxy is, for his detractors, the proof that he is unqualified and unfit for the office of president. Frank would prefer to have Trump disprove that view by seeing him remake himself to conform to the norms of conventional presidential candidates' behavior--that is, behave very much like the rest of the Washington political establishment's elected officials. By doing that, Frank reasons, Trump might show himself to be a "serious candidate" and recover, thereby averting a certain and disastrous rout which Frank fears would discredit populist candidates of all types for at least a generation.

But this analysis gets things exactly backwards.

Trump as a conventional politician is not only an obviously false and self-defeating pose, it's a pose which undercuts precisely what promises a break from politics as usual--and millions are completely fed up with that.

Thomas Frank seems to see electoral safety in conformity to conventional presidential campaign practice and danger in the departure from it. But Trump has scored all his blows by departing from politics as usual and gained the attention of both critics and admirers by doing so. There is already a candidate who represents all that is phony and conventional in our politics: Hillary Clinton. If Trump tried to play according to these standards, he'd immediately make himself vulnerable to Clinton in ways that currently he is not, while, at the same time, he'd lose much of his advantage which springs precisely from his not being "presidential" according to the models exemplified by Obama and the Clintons.

For Trump to try and beat Clinton at her own game, played by her rules on her turf is a losing proposition because it instantly validates not only Clinton's claims to be the model and the embodiment of correct presidential form but also the entire political order as we know it . If Trump cedes this point, he gives away his key distinction and makes himself just another politician to be judged according to all the usual measures.

No voter who is interested in politics as usual is likely to want to vote for Trump in any case. These voters are going to vote for the Clintons--unless Trump not only distinguishes himself from them but also explains clearly and simply why that's a positive rather than a negative.

He does that by telling them : "My candidacy is a direct challenge to Washington politics as usual. That's why I am in this race in the first place. That explains why the press hates me, why they call me a racist and a danger to the country --when in fact I'm only a danger to their hold on power. Well I'm here to tell you that it's the Clintons and their promise to keep doing more of what we've had that pose the real danger to the country." (And then he should explain simply why that is.)

Frank should bear in mind that ours is not a democratic order and it is vain to expect that it shall become one by polite deferential requests for respect and fair-play--observed and honored one-sidedly; the people who profit so immensely from a corrupt order are not about to see themselves removed from power by opponents who play fairly.

In reality, of course, Trump actually represents first and foremost another faction of the wealthy establishment. But there are enough differences between his faction and that of the technocratic order of wealth and control which the Clintons represent for ordinary voters to find a significant advantage in preferring Trump and his patent inexperience--a definite "plus" rather than the handicap it is portrayed to be--over the kind of "experience" which the Clintons bring to public office.

That Trump's campaign is, compared to the well-oiled machine which opposes him, so amateurish, so as-yet disorganized, should be regarded as reassuring evidence that his campaign is not the sort of organization which has produced the Clintons' disatrous over-confidence and the policy blunders which have flowed from it.

Slavishly practicing the same political forms and habits of a corrupt oligarchy with the naively-accepted notions of the inherent superiority of professionally-credentialed and certified "competence" is exactly what has brought us to this pass. We require a break from those habjts and we must see, recognize and understand that requirement fully and deliberately, rather than partially and accidentally.

Furthermore, it seems entirely likely that any such break from business as usual --whether it happens now with a start in the current Trump campaign or later, by someone else--shall happen by fits and starts--including some false starts--and in a way that is both partial and messy, done through what are comparatively less experienced, more amateurish and less organized efforts as opposed to the wrongly-supposed perfectly polished, serenely cool and overconfident types which have so long controlled political affairs unopposed.

To suppose that this corrupt oligarchy can be removed and replaced simply by calling another convention in Federal Hall in New York and, by amicable mediating and negotiation, drawing up a set of neat and tidy reforms, voting these in and seeing a fresh new day dawn as a result is to wildly mistake the forces and powers that are in opposition.

We did not come to this disaster in the course of just a few bad terms of office. We got here by a long and complicated process of gradual loss and set-back, compromise and defeat, foolish complacency and surrender to malign designs for the sake of expedience and mistaken convenience. Getting out, if we do--and we must if we're ever to enjoy the freedoms which give life meaning--is going to be a long and a messy struggle.

Anyone who challenges the establishment's corrupt order can contribute to this process--even unintentionally. The efforts could easily include people who are not anyone's idea of knights in shining armor. They are very likely to be mavericks, gadfly characters. These might be nominally Democrats, Republicans or some other party or no party at all. But they are not likely to be conventional. If we demand that they look and act according to our conventional notions of presidential comportment, we simply rule out the profile of those most likely to be inclined to the tasks.

Frank is mistaken in criticizing Trump's unorthodox behavior. If he'd been orthodox, he'd never have gotten this far. To blame Trump for being what and who he is in these circumstances which are not of his design or choice is like blaming the litmus paper for changing color when combined with a reactive substance. It's akin to people who, lost and struggling in the open sea, disdain to grab an errant inner-tube which happens to come within reach because they're counting on rescue-by-design in the form of a Coast Guard cutter or a sea-plane finding them and bringing them to safety.

We're at sea without so much as a plank of wood to hold onto. The oligarchic order, meanwhile, enjoys a complete monopoly of the phony two-party system which ensures their victory before the first ballots are cast. The first order of business must be to challenge and at least partially weaken that hold. That won't happen by our waiting until some ideal of properly-ordered rescue is arranged.

31artturnerjr
Aug. 15, 2016, 12:56 am

>30 proximity1:

Point taken. But voting for Trump (or advocating for the same, in any fashion) remains anathema for me. The thought of Trump having command of the world's largest nuclear arsenal is, as I have stated elsewhere, absolutely terrifying, as is the thought of one of the most profoundly undiplomatic human beings I have ever seen running for public office being placed in charge of US diplomacy. I would expect any reasonably objective and intelligent person to feel the same way. Certainly there are profound concerns about the present oligarchy in the US (and, make no mistake, it is an oligarchy - I have no argument with you on that matter); just as certainly, concerns regarding the continuing survival of the US, its citizens, and the people of the world surpass concerns regarding the former matter.

32proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 15, 2016, 12:40 pm

>31 artturnerjr:



... "voting for Trump (or advocating for the same, in any fashion) remains anathema for me. The thought of Trump having command of the world's largest nuclear arsenal is, as I have stated elsewhere, absolutely terrifying, as is the thought of one of the most profoundly undiplomatic human beings I have ever seen running for public office being placed in charge of US diplomacy. I would expect any reasonably objective and intelligent person to feel the same way."


I understand that. I also understand why this reasoning--which is the very model of what I suppose to be most people's view of the problem--is faulty.

You're accepting as valid a whole set of premises and conclusions without examining their validity carefully. I believe that if you were to take each of these premises which form the bases of your view and scrutinize each separately, one by one, you'd discover that they don't stand up singly and, put together, don't constitute a valid chain of reasoning.

Would you try that? Ask yourself: why, specifically and precisely, do I accept that Trump poses any particularly greater dangers than Ronald Reagan did, or Bill Clinton or George W. Bush--or, more to the point, any greater danger than Hillary Clinton?

The answer cannot be simply, "Because I've seen and heard him do and say crazy stuff," because this skips the process by which you actually test for validity your bases for that belief itself. You've probably accepted uncritically what the biased mass-media press have said Trump did and said and meant when the facts actually are otherwise. You've very likely also accepted uncritically the corollary--that Obama and Clinton are safer and smarter and more prudent than Trump--and, more to the point, that a Clinton as president once again poses nothing like the dangers of Trump. But in fact she poses greater dangers for a variety reasons--the most important being that her presidency, by all indications, condemns us to more of the same.

To avoid the mistake of seeing Trump as some particularly greater danger than the Clintons you must grasp why it's this "more of the same" for the foreseeable future which is the real danger.

We've been forced to play a game of Oligarchic electoral-Russian-Roulette for what's now going on seventy years. Some of us have been very lucky and survived that process in one way or another. A great many others have not been as lucky and a great many others have not survived it--those losses are the missing and overlooked evidence that this is not a worthy manner to operate politically. That we're now even facing a Clinton vs. Trump contest at all is itself an integral part of this insanely dangerous set of political circumstances. And you've seen fit to reason thst we're better off perpetuating it through the re-election of the Clintons than taking an only slightly different calculated risk by choosing Trump.

The sudden appearance of a new prospect to lead the circle of those in charge of the russian-roulette room--a maverick who happens to be, among other things, a rude, ill-mannered and politically inexperienced amateur does nothing to make the game's inherent dangers greater. Whether the people seated around the table are being governed by Harvard and Stanford law school graduates or by a boorish and extremely wealthy real estate developer whose tastes, talents and technique leave much to be desired, changes nothing about the basic facts: one of those at the table still risks blowing blowing his brains out with each new spin of the revolver and pull of the trigger.

Trump in his own outlandish way is actually challenging the premises of this state of affairs while the Clintons are determined to keep this insanity going. And you've accepted the evaluation of Trump, rather than the Clintons, as the greater danger to the room's occupants seated around the table. To reach that judgment, you're relying on the word of people whose livelihoods depend on the game's continuing indefinitely.

Why?

It's as though Trump intervened in the game and objected to it, saying that he had a bus parked outside in the back alley and was prepared to take everyone seated at the table out of the room and drive them away in the bus.

The other game operators object that Trump is drunk, has no license and has never driven a bus before--he's only driven cars.

Now you have to think.

-----

ETA :

Then there is the signal difference in what these two candidates mean and imply about and within their respective political parties.

Trump's eccenticities and shocking behavior are , to be quite blunt, not any great departure from the already-existing varieties of political flora and fauna in the Republican party. There are others in the Republican party who are a good deal worse than Trump and some of them hold or have held elective office: Ted Cruz, Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Newt Gingrich, Phil Gramm and many others we've never heard of because they remain obscure creatures in the party --the way that Alaska Governor Sarah Palin used to be before her name became a household word across the country during a presidential campaign.

Hillary and Bill Clinton, on the other hand, were instrumental in creating and installing the Democratic Leadership Conference--a neo-liberal right-wing group which effectively destroyed everything socially and morally progressive about the Democratic party and then kept it from recovering for more than a generation. They are nothing short of a blight on liberal politics in the United States. No one with any sense or proportion could rightly accuse Donald Trump of having a similar role among Republicans. Contrary to what some have tried to maintain, Trump is not a creature of the right-wing "Tea Party" movement. Many who identify with that movement may like and prefer Trump but that does not mean he is a part of it.




33RickHarsch
Aug. 15, 2016, 4:24 am

>harsch here and there, everywhere, all harsch entries past and future: think about it, study them, take it all in, turn it inside out and see how it still applies on the deepest imaginable level, trust me, love me, read me, baby!

34SimonW11
Aug. 15, 2016, 6:16 am

"Trump's incorrigible unorthodoxy is, for his detractors, the proof that he is unqualified and unfit for the office of president."

No it is his racism sexism and islamaphobia that makes him unfit for the office.

35proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 15, 2016, 11:54 am

>34 SimonW11:

never mind for a moment that your completely closed mind on these issues makes discussion with you a waste of time--

I'll put this in despite that--for the benefit of others:

You cannot show by any reasonable and evidenced-based argument that Trump is either sexist or racist. So I'm confident you won't even bother supporting those Iibelous charges.

They tell us about you, not Trump.



36artturnerjr
Aug. 15, 2016, 11:05 am

>32 proximity1:

Before we proceed further, I'd like to reiterate a supposition of mine on your view of Clinton that I posted elsewhere.* To wit: your view of her seems to be that she is a dangerous sociopath that is extremely adept at hiding her disorder. Is that, in fact, your opinion?

* https://www.librarything.com/topic/228847#5690208

37proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 15, 2016, 11:53 am

>36 artturnerjr:

Fair enough. I hadn't read your linked post before seeing this one.

I regard the Clintons (both together as well as singly) as greater dangers to our politics and to democratic institutions in general than Trump, yes--partly because, unlike in the case of Trump, we've actually seen what the Clintons have done while in public office.

I'm not confident enough to claim in a remote armchair diagnosis that B & HC are sociopaths; that would require extra study and we'd have to agree on what that designation means about them in practical terms. I think it's more useful to discuss what they've actually done and tried to do and understand why than to try to pin the cause or motivation on psychopathologies. Either way, the points and the problems are the same, aren't they? Would you feel better if HC merely resembled a sociopath and behaved somewhat like one without actually being clearly diagnosable as such?

If you would like a clear and short answer to the question, I'd say that, no, based on the knowledge and information I have now, I wouldn't put that label on them. But if I knew more I might change that reply to "yes".

On the other hand, her shortcomings are more and more evident after so long in public life; so I'd say that in fact, as things now stand, however well she may have previously hidden such things, I don't think she's now very adept at hiding them. I believe, for example, that those who have worked closely with her every day over years have become extremely well aware of her psychological profile and they do not regard her as any paragon of mental stability and good balance. Instead, I suspect they know her to be _very_ much like what many of Trump's staunchest opponents criticize in his behavior.* Supremely egotistical, outlandish in her overconfidence, stubborn, disinclined to question what she's already decided, an inveterate liar and completely obsesed with her own image and career advancement. In those respects I might characterize what I observe in her as clearly pathological.

Does this help? If not, let me know how to correct it.

-------

* I think these traits aren't unusual in politicians at this level.

38JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 15, 2016, 11:50 am

> 30
> 32
> 35

Wrong, wrong and wrong. Blatantly and obviously.

The only possibly sane and rational response would be "WTF is wrong with you, dude?"

Let's move on. Time waits for no man, and we must grasp the bull by the horns before the cows escape the barn and the chickens come home to roost.

39RickHarsch
Aug. 15, 2016, 11:59 am

Tom Waits for no man? A bit presumptuous.

Though this: 'The only possibly sane and rational response would be "WTF is wrong with you, dude?"', particularly in regard to the two posts I read, 34 and 34, is dead on. If Simon the W 11 is wrong it's that his list is far too short.

40proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 19, 2016, 9:51 am

Popular new bullshit buzz-words : "push-back"

E.g.


Clinton camp attacks Trump over 'deranged' health rumors

By ZACH MONTELLARO 08/16/16 09:02 PM EDT

"Hillary Clinton’s campaign on Tuesday pushed back (emphasis added) against rumors circulating on right-wing media sites that her health is failing, issuing a statement slamming Donald Trump for pushing "deranged conspiracy theories."

“ 'While it is dismaying to see the Republican nominee for president push deranged conspiracy theories in a foreign policy speech, it’s no longer surprising,' said Jennifer Palmieri, Clinton’s communication director, in the statement."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/clinton-camp-smacks-down-health-rumors-227...



Remember when false claims were
denied
by replies which said things like, "that's false," "it is not true that... " and so forth ?

What is "push-back"?

It's public-relations consultant-speak meaning, "We hate this stuff they've said about us; unfortunately, we can't simply issue a denial because it's partially or completely true! Damn!"

Are the Trump campaign's allegations false? Then stop fucking around with "push-back" and just deny them.

---------

P.S.

I viewed the notorious video of Clinton's supposed "seizure," (epileptic or other "fit") and I don't buy it. There's no seizure going on there. This is sheer junk analysis. As Bill put it, "That dog won't hunt."

41proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 19, 2016, 9:01 am

Lol! You couldn't make this shit up!



Clinton Foundation won’t accept foreign, corporate donations if Clinton wins"

The decision comes in the midst of mounting criticism of how the Foundation operated during Hillary Clinton’s tenure as secretary of state.

By Abby Phillip and Rosalind S. Helderman



CGI, launched in 2005, is an arm of the foundation that hosts gatherings bringing together government leaders, private companies and not-for-profit organizations to discuss ways to (get rich pretending to) solve the world’s problems.

The initiative’s chief event is an annual meeting in New York City, tied to the United Nations General Assembly. The meetings provide networking opportunities for participants and a forum for private companies to make pledges to conduct charitable projects around the world, monitored by the Clinton Foundation."

-----------
If you were born yesterday or have just fallen out of the turnip-truck, a bit of explanatory rephrasing : the above language refers to the new fangled version (2.0) of what also goes by the name of bad old corporate lobbying and shopping for influence with people in and close to power.

In other words, a convention/trade-fair for elite influence-peddling.



" Dear SUCKERS --er, VOTERS! :

"Elect me!--and I promise1--cross my black, wicked, crooked fucking heart--that maybe I'll be slightly less2 of a money-grubbing, influence-peddling slut.3"

Your BFF,

"Hills"

--------

1 : Gotcha! Fingers crossed! Only valid if I decide not to lie about it now or later. ;^)

2 : For only some of the time during my tenure as POTUS, of course. A girl has to make hundreds of millions of dollars. "Diamonds Donors are a girl's best friends™."

3 : Don't elect me--and all bets (and faked promises) are off!


-------


Trump expresses regret over causing ‘personal pain’ with ill-chosen words By Jose A. DelReal, Robert Costa and Jenna Johnson
| 18 August 2016 at 20:22 hrs.


CHARLOTTE — Donald Trump (speaking on condition of anonymity) on Thursday expressed (conditional) regret over (his advisors' advice --which he had followed) causing (potential) “personal pain” through (their) ill-chosen words he has used “in the heat of debate,” an unexpected and uncharacteristic declaration of remorse for a candidate whose public persona is defined by his (wildly successful press headline-jacking) combative and bombastic style.

"Speaking during his first campaign rally since rebooting his (artificial brain used to run his) campaign, the Republican presidential nominee sought to frame himself as a truth-telling candidate who occasionally crosses boundaries in that pursuit. He also sought to contrast himself with his Democratic rival, Crooked Hillary (Clinton), whom he accused of (an incredibly polished and hardly-to-be-believed-professionalism in her) dishonesty and pandering.

“Sometimes in the heat of debate, and speaking on a multitude of issues, you don't choose the right words--(I, personally speaking, do, but you might not) or you say the wrong thing (--not that I ever have). I (suppose some people have got the idea that l) have done that," Trump said, with a slight smile, during a campaign rally here.

“And believe it or not, I regret it. I do regret it (that they got that idea), particularly where it may have caused (a loss to my vote-gaining popularity and, therefore my) personal pain. Too much is at stake for us (--but, really, mainly for me) to be consumed with these issues,” he said. (So I'm suggesting that you forget all that and let by-gones be by-gones. I want the nuclear codes. And power. And prestige--prestige is good. Elect me so that together we can make me president, make America great again and make Crooked Hillary and Bill wear the great big red "L" for Losers!

Officially yours,

The Donald.



42SimonW11
Bearbeitet: Aug. 19, 2016, 8:49 am

>35 proximity1: So just his Islamaphobia then?

Bye the bye. Since you did not profess your own personal opinion whether Mr Trump is sexist or racist. Claiming only insufficient evidence to convict. Let us pretend that this is merely a civil case.

In your opinion is the prepondance of evidence that Mr Trump is not a racist?

Does the balance of probabilities suggest to you that Mr Trump is not a sexist?

His detractors, even within his own party, most assuredly are of the opinion that the evidence in support of claims of sexism, racism, and islamaphobia is overwhelming enough to disqualify him from the office of president.

43proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 19, 2016, 9:52 am

>41 proximity1:


So just his Islamaphobia then?


You'll have to be specific. I don't know what this vague and much over-used term means to you. What's an "Islamaphobe" or "Islamaphobia" and how does it rightly apply to Trump? -- esp. in some way that's not also true about the Clintons.


Bye the bye. Since you did not profess your own personal opinion whether Mr Trump is sexist or racist.


I believe I did :


>35 proximity1: "You cannot show by any reasonable and evidenced-based argument that Trump is either sexist or racist."


You've side-stepped my challenge to put up your reasoned arguments and supporting proofs for the view that Trump is racist, sexist or "Islamaphobic" and are now trying to duck that challenge by posing questions to me.

Perhaps you should first deal with "old business," hmm?


Claiming only insufficient evidence to convict. Let us pretend that this is merely a civil case.

In your opinion is the prepondance of evidence that Mr Trump is not a racist?

Does the balance of probabilities suggest to you that Mr Trump is not a sexist?


Funny. You're bringing the allegation. I believe it's customary for the accusing party to make the case as the burden of proof belongs to that party.


His detractors, even within his own party, most assuredly are of the opinion that the evidence in support of claims of sexism, racism, and islamaphobia is overwhelming enough to disqualify him from the office of president.


I won't pretend not to be aware of the comments from Trump which much of the press has been delighted to use to vilify him. Taking those, I answer: "So what? Please explain how these are sufficient to draw the conclusions that Trump is not just concerned with specific individual instances and is instead liable to be denounced as a general racist, sexist, Islamaphobe"--

Or, to put things in perspective:

I gather you deny that these labels fairly apply to you; so I ask-- have you ever criticized a woman? a person of a different "race"? a muslim? If so, why aren't you, then, equally liable to these charges? You haven't explained these things to us.

44St._Troy
Aug. 19, 2016, 9:38 am

It is interesting what their (DT & HC) nominations say about their respective parties:

- Republican voters had plenty of alternatives; they obviously wanted DT (for the anti-DT crowd, this means most Republicans are stupid/racist/fill in the blank; for others, it means they are tired of the same-old same-old and are willing to vote in a unicycle-riding hobo if he appears to be willing to put Americans first).

- Democrats had few alternatives to HC; it was HC or go full socialist. Why so few? I don't follow lower-level party politics closely enough to know for sure, but I imagine there must be a generation of somewhat competent Democrat governors/senators etc. who could have run but chose not to in the face of HC's forbidding political machine.

This will sound like a sad, sad joke, but I mean it in all honesty, as a kind of positive: the next generation of presidential candidates should be much more conventionally disappointing.

45St._Troy
Aug. 19, 2016, 9:41 am

>42 SimonW11: "...islamaphobia is overwhelming enough to disqualify him from the office of president."

Disqualify?

46RickHarsch
Bearbeitet: Aug. 19, 2016, 10:43 am

>45 St._Troy: Full socialist?

47proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 19, 2016, 1:36 pm

There's something both remarkable and pathetic about how the Hillary vs. Tump "camps" are so ready to square off and argue with each other when the only real question and issue is:

"Shall the establishment pull this one off and install their darling little servants, the Clintons, for a second tenure in the White House?"--

And, its corollary: "Why and how in the world could it fail?"--the game being so shamelessly rigged? "How, fail? -- how? having virtually, or even literally, stage-managed this entire electoral process from the first amd having had complete and utter control over every aspect which is susceptible to human intervention?"

If I were in the .1%, observing the bitter back-and-forth between Trump and Clinton supporters, my reaction would be, "Aren't they cute!"

48RickHarsch
Aug. 19, 2016, 1:42 pm

>47 proximity1: Right, Trump's a real outsider, might as well be from another planet.

49JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 19, 2016, 2:22 pm

> 41 - > 48

1. trump is a Three-headed Hellhound from Neptune. He is an embarrassment to our entire solar system. Let us not waste time speaking of him again, shall we? - except to note that IF trump is elected THEN our only hope will be The Second Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ - and since I am an atheist I will be royally fucked then too. - So that is the fuckity-fuck name of that fuckity-fuck tune.

2. Clinton is also a sicko wad of filthy filth - but of a much better class, obviously, than the micro-dick guy. She at least knows how the game is played and thus will play the game within the normal bounds and rules. TITS - she won't bring a baseball bat and a soccer ball to a basketball game, or wear scuba gear to a chess match, analogously-speaking.

HRC has magnanimously offered to leave off taking bribes to The Clinton Foundation if elected President (at least while she is President, that is). I think that is quite a concession from a narcissistic sociopathic lying piece of crap. Kudos.

The U.S. voter in the majority will take up her promise and vote her in as President - that is my solemn prediction. If not, then see #1 above.

To conclude - I've said it before and I'll say it again: Fuck This Shit.

50davidgn
Bearbeitet: Aug. 20, 2016, 2:03 am

Something very interesting has come across my transom. This document traces back to the Trump-supporter camp and is not signed, so I'd treat it with appropriate skepticism. That said, it does make a superficially persuasive case, based on a number of known circumstances and observed odd behaviors that have been feeding a non-stop rumor mill of theories, that Hillary Clinton may be suffering from -- and undergoing treatment for -- mid-to-late stage Parkinson's Disease.

http://6889-presscdn-0-68.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Hilla...

While I'm not medically trained, this certainly seems to be the most satisfactory explanation I've heard for the many incidents of odd behavior that people have documented, including Clinton's occasionally bizarre affect as seen in public speeches and interviews. (And please note: I would expect the media, if they are aware, to sit on this, much as they sat on the fact that FDR could not walk.) I'm not necessarily convinced of the diagnosis, but I am convinced that it's incumbent upon Clinton to release her health records -- now more than ever.

51proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 20, 2016, 2:37 am

>49 JGL53:

You sound like a narcotics addict who, while on a drug high, burned the house down and now doesn't want to mention that--or talk about his addiction itself.

RE :


2. Clinton is also a sicko wad of filthy filth - but of a much better class, obviously, than the micro-dick guy. She at least knows how the game is played and thus will play the game within the normal bounds and rules. TITS - she won't bring a baseball bat and a soccer ball to a basketball game, or wear scuba gear to a chess match, analogously-speaking.


That is more of "the lesser-of-two-evils" bullshit that has brought us here. It doesn't stand up to three seconds' reflection.

Neither Trump nor any of the other fifteen or sixteen Republican primary candidates stopped Bernie Sanders' efforts to win the Democratic party nomination; that distinction belongs to the Clintons and their monied backers and the shit-for-brains ordinary voters who supported these corrupt scum-bags.

The Republican party is and practically always has been the party of the rich, the elite, the morally-bankrupt who generally own and operate this disgusting sham of a democracy. We can't blame this party for running the Romneys and Bushes and others like them or far worse.

But we can and we ought to object to their ideological views being imported into the Democratic party and used to corrupt and destroy the Republicans' historical main political opposition. The Clintons are the emblems of that success and your taking them for granted is the validation of this corrupt system's centerpiece.

Instead of resisting this set of circumstances, you grumble about it even as you advocate our conceding to and participating in its validation when we could take these truly abominable circumstances and salvage from them the only aspect which holds any positive prospect: repuduating and ruining the duopoly by rejecting our (former) party's integral part in it.

That is, sadly, at once both the most and the least we can do. And you miss this factor. Yours is the supremely stupid position: actually rewarding the Clintons for their betrayal of us.

52proximity1
Aug. 20, 2016, 2:31 am

>50 davidgn:

..."much as they sat on the fact that FDR could not walk."

There is no valid comparison there.

If Clinton is suffering from Parkinson's disease, that is, in effect, still entirely unknown to the general public at this point. The press never withheld anything about FDR's having been left paralyzed by polio and unable to walk unassisted.

A valid example would have been the press avoiding mention of Reagan's dementia while he was still in office. The press can be accused of having helped hide from their discovery important facts about Reagan's physical condition about which many of the general public didn't already know.

53davidgn
Bearbeitet: Aug. 20, 2016, 2:46 am

>52 proximity1: I stand corrected. My introduction to that particular historical issue came, as I recall, around the time of the unveiling of FDR's Washington memorial in 1997 (at which point I would have been in middle school), and somehow I've not had occasion to revise my conception of it since. Your comment sent me searching, and I found the following Wilson Quarterly piece informative. Thanks for the tip.

http://archive.wilsonquarterly.com/essays/fdrs-hidden-handicap

54SimonW11
Aug. 20, 2016, 4:38 am

>45 St._Troy: Yes, a politican with an irrational fear of part of his constituency. Is not going to be able to serve them well.

While a Commander In Chief with an irrational fear of 23 percent of the people in the world is obviously unsuitable.

55prosfilaes
Aug. 20, 2016, 7:04 am

>44 St._Troy: they obviously wanted DT

No; the Republican primaries demonstrated the problem with straight biggest voter getter winning system. Trump didn't get much more than one-third of the vote until the end. Maybe he would have won a Condorcet vote or the like, but it seems probable that more people hated him than loved him.

it means they are tired of the same-old same-old and are willing to vote in a unicycle-riding hobo if he appears to be willing to put Americans first

How does a man with a long history of cheating Americans he's hired appear willing to put Americans first?

Also, Only 20 Percent Of Voters Are ‘Real Americans‘ ... If you’re one of these “real Americans,” you’re in the majority in almost every respect. Most Americans are white, most are Christian, most don’t have college degrees, and most live in the South or Midwest Census Bureau regions. And yet, only about 1 in 5 voters meets all of these descriptions.

Democrats had few alternatives to HC; it was HC or go full socialist. Why so few?

Because the Republican leadership didn't get someone they wanted, and both sides lost support in part because of the dissension. So the Democrats didn't want to encourage anyone to run against her. And it's expensive to run, so people don't run just for the heck of it.

>45 St._Troy: Disqualify?

Discriminating against the world's largest religion, against the major religion of many countries we've tried hard to work with? Yes, that disqualifies a person from the most powerful and important foreign affairs office in the US.

56RickHarsch
Aug. 20, 2016, 11:24 am

>51 proximity1: After two seconds reflection I wondered how you found the JGL post possible to reply to without first asking him in all seriousness if he is sure that the planet he has in mind is Neptune.

57JGL53
Aug. 20, 2016, 12:56 pm

> 51

You read a lot into my post that is not there, p1. Don't do that. It will only redound to your detriment in the end.

I do conclude that many millions of the vote for HRC will just be votes against trump. It will thus be the "lesser of evil" reasoning. I did not say I myself partake of such reasoning to the degree that I would vote for HRC. However, I certainly understand it. I do not and have not recommended "lesser of" but that is besides the point as many will reason thusly and will not consult me in the interim.

I have stated quite clearly that I will not be voting for either HRC or trump. I am merely predicting HRC will win - based on the aggregate and evolution of about a dozen different national polls. That, plus my impression of trump being such an out-of-touch narcissist that a much more political savvy narcissist like HRC should be able to take him out in the end. If HRC were actually to lose to trump she would have to be the world's worst politician not to mention the unluckiest politician in the world. I just don't see that at present.

So, then, I spit on your sorry-ass attempts at ad hominem, p1. I am really only insulted by the fact that people like you live in the same world as I do. I think that is a mean trick by the Divinity. But It is omnipotent so what can one do?

> 56

Yes, I think it might have actually been Uranus.

58RickHarsch
Aug. 20, 2016, 1:07 pm

>57 JGL53: As so much and so many before. It is still a mystery how various posters, yourself not excluded, get their material from there.

59proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 20, 2016, 1:46 pm

>57 JGL53:

I read & understood your post as you wrote it and dispute that I've misrepresented your words' imports --as to your intended meaning, I don't pretend to know and I would not bet much money on your knowing much better what you intended to say either.

Shall I cite your post? :

(all emphasis is added in what follows)

You compare Clinton & Trump and described Clinton as more worthy of the two. That's at the very least an inadvertent endorsement.

"> 41 - > 48

(Trump)


1. trump is a Three-headed Hellhound from Neptune. He is an embarrassment to our entire solar system. Let us not waste time speaking of him again, shall we?


(Clinton)

2. Clinton is also a sicko wad of filthy filth - but of a much better class, obviously, than the micro-dick guy.



She at least knows how the game is played and thus will play the game within the normal bounds and rules. TITS - she won't bring a baseball bat and a soccer ball to a basketball game, or wear scuba gear to a chess match, analogously-speaking.


You (facetiously) credit Clinton :


"HRC has magnanimously offered to leave off taking bribes to The Clinton Foundation if elected President (at least while she is President, that is). I think that is quite a concession from a narcissistic sociopathic lying piece of crap. Kudos.


You predict Trump's loss--based on the expectation that voters shall accept Clinton's promise and give her their votes as a result-- thus, you present Clinton as the probable winner based on a "deal" and you imply this is reasonable--since you don't denounce it as you do Trump and his efforts :


The U.S. voter in the majority will take up her promise and vote her in as President - that is my solemn prediction.


Then you hedge (just in case --so either way you're not on anyone's hook) :


If not, then see #1 above.


Whatever else you're up to here, you're presenting a rationale for voting for Clinton by voting against Trump-- and clearly one you make out to be reasonable even if you're not claiming this to be your operational plan.

It's at the very least an open invitation to readers to see Clinton as favorably superior to Trump (followed by a prediction that voters shall reason this way and act accordingly. )

Where in all of that have I read into your words things that aren't already in them?

-----

Note : Depending on where one lives and votes, abstaining or voting for a third-party candidate will (in many cases and, over the nation as a whole, probably most cases,) amount to a de facto aid to Clinton's election.

Anything less than Clinton's defeat would mean there is simply no even timid challenge to Clinton's betrayals of working-class interests and no challenge at all to the oligarchy's place and behavior. That's the message your announced intentions shall send.

60RickHarsch
Aug. 20, 2016, 1:53 pm

>59 proximity1: This is called the deranged leftist argument. As a leftist, I recognize it easily. Because as is always the case (at least, let's say, since WWII) the Democratic Party nominates a moderate, pro-business, anti-labor front for the oligarchy that runs the US, the leftist is finally provoked to derangement and, in this case, spends all energies attacking the Democrat even though clearly the status quo is better than the alternative. I think it's important to add that it is quite understandable that this static 'cycle' drives people crazy.

61JGL53
Aug. 20, 2016, 1:59 pm

> 59

I stand by my words as written. My point was that most people will reason HRC is the lessor of and will elect her over trump. They don't need my advice or input to reason thusly.

I imagine if any of the unwashed masses were aware of your existence and your opinion and advice they would, en masse, tell you to go fuck yourself and then they would get on with their lives, including voting for HRC as the lesser of.

You think trump is the lesser of? OK. I think that is a minority opinion but in any case who would really care what you think? Your opinion is worth less than cow manure since that can be used as fertilizer - I suspect your opinions, OTOH, would make flowers wilt. lol.

Trying to sell trump as the lesser of is a losing proposition but knock yourself out if you enjoy such.

Regarding a person who votes for HRC - I will give such a person the benefit of the doubt and assume they are acting to save the country from the greater of. If they are really enthused over HRC and think she is great, then they are ignorant asses - but their individual votes count the same.

OTOH - any person who votes for donald trump? Words do not exist that I could effectively use to describe my actual reaction to such people. The closest I can come would be to say "Jesus Fucking God - are you dumb as shit, a mental case, or a shaved ape passing as a primitive-looking human being?"

Does the above clear everything up? If so let us stop at this point before someone says something rude.

62JGL53
Aug. 20, 2016, 2:01 pm

> 58

You're not called rickHARSCH for nothing.

63lriley
Aug. 20, 2016, 2:40 pm

Speaking of economics or foreign policy today's democrats are pretty much 1990's era republicans. They're been slowly drifting towards the right. The further and further right the republicans go the more the democrats follow down their path. Lots of people will vote for that and don't want the craziness that Trump brings to the table. Other people will settle for that because again they don't like the craziness that Trump brings to the table.

Hillary is pretty much 4 or 8 more years of something people might not like a whole lot but are already kind of use to getting already. Trump will be who knows?....but almost undoubtedly something much worse than today's status quo.

64JGL53
Aug. 20, 2016, 9:49 pm

> 63

Thanks. You've just restated what I just said, only minus a lot of fucks and shits.

Your thoughtful and mild-mannered analysis is appreciated.

65proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 21, 2016, 3:40 am

>61 JGL53:

Of the two of us, you're the only one actually operating according to "lesser of two evils" reasoning.

I reject that reasoning outright as flawed because rather than being a strategy it's a vain and empty rationale for capitulation to the status quo.

Instead of, as you're doing, embracing something you abhor because you cannot imagine any alternative, I'm recognizing and using Trump's revolting character traits to underscore something strategically larger and more important than this one presidential election: opposing our continuing unchallenged this fruad upon democracy by repudiating the Clinton-faction's domination and corruption of the Democratic party's historic role as a progessive alternative to rule by and for only the wealthiest.

This approach does not presuppose that Trump is a lesser evil--which you wrongly ascribe to me as my view of him--it rejects that reasoning as being, in these circumstances, beside the point : to challenge and break down the complete monopolistic domination by a single narrow ideological strain within Right-wing politics of both so-called opposing parties.

You and all who reason like you are throwing away even what little pitiful leverage this corrupt system affords us and voting to confirm and validate what you hate--in return for nothing! Your abstention shall register as "no opposition to to the status quo" and as indicating that you prefer we carry on as we've been doing.

Hillary Clinton ensured that our progressive chances were ended by her defeat of the Sanders campaign by deceitfull abuse of proper & fair electoral practices.

The only respectable course in face of that is to refuse to cede to it by validating a fraud --which you propose doing by voting for Clinton.

You're so paralyzed by an irrational fear of Trump--whipped up and played on by the the self-serving national press--that you not only couldn't figure these things out for yourself, you couldn't even grasp them when they were shown to you in the form of a simple colored-crayon drawing.

You deserve these disgusting circumstances since you lack the imagination to think of any way out of them. So you're going to vote for what you hate--and get it.

-----------
(Related to these points,) See:



The death of neoliberalism and the crisis in western politics
by Martin Jacques | Sunday, 21 August, 2016 | from The Sunday Observer / Guardian Opinion pages




■■■ "The western financial crisis of 2007-8 was the worst since 1931, yet its immediate repercussions were surprisingly modest. The crisis challenged the foundation stones of the long-dominant neoliberal ideology but it seemed to emerge largely unscathed. The banks were bailed out; hardly any bankers on either side of the Atlantic were prosecuted for their crimes; and the price of their behaviour was duly paid by the taxpayer. Subsequent economic policy, especially in the Anglo-Saxon world, has relied overwhelmingly on monetary policy, especially quantitative easing. It has failed. The western economy has stagnated and is now approaching its lost decade, with no end in sight.

--- After almost nine years, we are finally beginning to reap the political whirlwind of the financial crisis. But how did neoliberalism manage to survive virtually unscathed for so long?1 Although it failed the test of the real world, bequeathing the worst economic disaster for seven decades, politically and intellectually it remained the only show in town. Parties of the right, centre and left had all bought into its philosophy, New Labour a classic in point. They knew no other way of thinking or doing: it had become the common sense. It was, as Antonio Gramsci put it, hegemonic. But that hegemony cannot and will not survive the test of the real world. •••
•••


---------

1: I suggest the answer is news organizations like The Guardian, The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, MS-NBC, The BBC, NBC, ABC, CBS, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting's PBS & National Public Radio and the gullible who rely on them as well as people like you.

66RickHarsch
Bearbeitet: Aug. 22, 2016, 11:44 am

>61 JGL53: 'I reject that reasoning outright as flawed because rather than being a strategy it's a vain and empty rationale for capitulation to the status quo.' It certainly comes off as a sad, a resigned, perhaps even disgusted suggestion that even a status quo plus Clinton-degradations/depredations is likely better than a Trump presidency. Nor do I notice any embracing at all. You have been throwing a tantrum for weeks now and you are distorting whatever fails to support your mania. You need to stop now, go out into the street, and conduct aggressive interviews.

Edited to point out that I was referring to a prolixity post not 61 as advertised.

67lriley
Aug. 21, 2016, 8:03 am

The thing about Trump is he's got no clue about the economy--no clue about foreign policy--no clue about climate change--we could go on and on--no clue on anything really. Just a lot of bombast and hot air mixed in with an unhealthy dose of racism and racism is a sickness. The best thing I can say for him after over a year of listening to his shit is he's been consistently against TPP. He's not a rational choice to vote for simply because he hasn't made himself into one. The republican party have outdone themselves again--they might as well have dug up Lyndon Larouche. Easily the worst major party candidate in my lifetime.

68proximity1
Aug. 21, 2016, 8:31 am


Like others here you completely miss the point --you even miss it in multiple ways:


The thing about Trump is he's got no clue about the economy--no clue about foreign policy--no clue about climate change--we could go on and on


First, what you really mean is that

a.) his views are quite different from those of the usual cookie-cutter approved Washington policy-wonk set --which is both true and a positive, rather than a negative, feature.

Hillary Clinton, on the other hand has two reasons to possess none of Trump's potential to develop a "clue" outside the strictly-closed rigors of Washington-policy-wonk-think : a) she's already bought-and-paid-for

and b) she's now so jaded by money and briefing-binders thste there's no way outside of blowing up the chem-lab that she'd ever subject her made-up-mind's opinions to review and reform;

b) you mean you neither like nor agree with Trump's views--to the extent that he has some & thart you have an accurate idea of them.

c) you fail to grasp the value of his not being hopelessly set in his views--as the Clintons are. That is a perverse failing ob your part, not Trump's.





--no clue on anything really. Just a lot of bombast and hot air mixed in with an unhealthy dose of racism and racism is a sickness. The best thing I can say for him after over a year of listening to his shit is he's been consistently against TPP.


The two highlighted comments contradict rach other.


He's not a rational choice to vote for simply because he hasn't made himself into one.


It's our task to recognize how the choice of Trump makes a certain quite rational sense. You're failing at that.

69prosfilaes
Aug. 21, 2016, 8:54 am

>67 lriley: Easily the worst major party candidate in my lifetime.

Yeah. I haven't had nearly as many candidates in my lifetime, but he's making Romney and W look good.

70krazy4katz
Aug. 21, 2016, 10:33 am

>68 proximity1: You are saying is that since Trump's views are different than the "cookie-cutter" Washington views that's a positive. It's only positive if his ideas are better. His views are not better. They are different and, in fact, much worse. I would welcome someone with new and better ideas.

71proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 21, 2016, 11:16 am

>70 krazy4katz:

I'm saying that Trump is not a clone of the Washingtonian--and now world-wide-- technocrats and that this is, in and of itself, an advantage, a positive factor; that there's good reason to expect that he may be able to consider a wider range of possibilities than these technocrats because he has not been steeped and formed in their echo-chamber culture in which, when one person makes a mistake, virtually everyone else in the members-only club makes the same mistake and when one makes a colossal mistake, virtually everyone else goes along and makes it, too. This is a fundamentally flawed characteristic of our oligarchic political culture. We've been "lucky" the disasters haven't been much worse and we've underestimated just how bad have been the disasters already produced --and continuing--because these technocrats enjoy the unwise and underserved luxury of appraising their own work and defining for the rest of us what "success" looks like.

But this is not the main reason to favor Trump over Clinton. One need not agree that Trump presents any particular improvement over the Clintons and still recognize in his election the invaluable prospect of undoing the oligarchy's party duopoly--or at a minimum taking the all-important first step toward undoing it. That alone argues conclusively in favor of Trump.

72JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 21, 2016, 12:39 pm

This is my final comment here on the 'lesser of' question. I will be moving on from here now to waste my time on some other insanity just to avoid continuation of the boredom:

1. I do not advocate lesser of reasoning to anyone.

2. I merely point out that many people will use this reasoning - that seems apparent.

3. Whether some other person uses the lesser of idea in casting his or her vote - or not - in either case, what is that to me? Nothing.

4. I personally will not vote for either party candidate. They are both too evil for my taste.

5. The fact that I predict HRC will win is not any kind of endorsement of her. It is just my prediction about the "horse race". Someone who does not understand that? - Fuck You.

6. I could give a shit if some one thinks I am "wasting my vote" on a third party candidate who has, obviously, no chance of winning. My reply to such people is "Fuck You and your mother."

7. Anyone who confuses what I think other people will do, and my analysis of why they will do it - with what I will do and what my personal thinking is regarding what I will do - You are a dumbass motherfucker.

Over and out.

73lriley
Aug. 21, 2016, 1:13 pm

#72--now that's where I'm at. I'd probably take the 'fuck you' out of 5 and replace it with 'too fucking bad' and take 'and your mother' altogether out of 6 but there I'd leave the 'fuck you' in. Other than that I'm in absolute agreement with everything here.

Jill Stein 2016. I even like Gary Johnson better then either Clinton or Trump.

74JGL53
Aug. 21, 2016, 5:28 pm

> 73

Of course neither Stein nor Johnson will win but it will be interesting to see how much of the vote they will divert from the major parties.

It is amusing to think what would happen if Johnson were to have a chance and actually be elected. It would be a toss-up as to which party would hate him the most.

He would push for extreme reduction in taxes - the republicans would love that and the democrats would hate it.

He would push for extreme reduction in spending - both the republicans and the democrats would hate that on defense, but the republicans might like it on domestic expenditure, or pretend to do so.

He would push for an extreme liberal take on social issues - the republicans would hate that and the democrats would like it - except for his take on guns.

Probably nothing would get done but that's the situation now. Who the hell could guess what he would do regarding Supreme Court nominations, or how the two parties would react.

75artturnerjr
Aug. 21, 2016, 5:52 pm

>73 lriley:

Jill Stein 2016

I am increasingly leaning toward voting for Stein this November.

Looking at the polls here in my home state of Illinois, I see that HRC has an average lead of 17 points.* If it was 2-3 points (as it has been in North Carolina and Iowa), I'd probably hold my nose and vote for HRC, but 17 points is a pretty robust lead - it doesn't look like she's really gonna need my help.

I'll have a look at the numbers again the week before Election Day. If she's still up by, say, 14 points or more, I will almost certainly vote for Stein.

* http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/illinois/#IL-calculat...

76lriley
Aug. 21, 2016, 6:11 pm

#74--Johnson is an acknowledged marijuana smoker. He has vowed to legalize that and end the war on drugs. Ending the war on drugs would mean treating people with problems rather than putting them in prison. That's a good thing. Another good thing is what it does to the Cartels when one of their major products is legal to growers and sellers here but still illegal to them because of their criminality. It kills their market.

I don't really like the libertarian take on economics at all. OTOH if Johnson started shutting overseas military bases down and stopped feeding the war machine here---well for me at least that would be a big big positive. So.......

Anyway he's not going to win but I do think it possible that he gets to 8 to 10%.

#75---your own version of instant runoff voting. Illinois is not going to Trump. You don't like HRC so you might as well vote for someone you do like. I approve.

77JGL53
Aug. 21, 2016, 6:50 pm

> 75

I use the same logic. Trump is ahead by 15.5 per cent average on polls in Mississippi. Thus I don't think my non-vote regarding HRC is going to be the one to deny her our pitiful handful of electoral votes.

Stein 2016

78Jesse_wiedinmyer
Aug. 21, 2016, 7:23 pm

JGL53.- Why have you not stood up? Why are you not counted?

79Jesse_wiedinmyer
Aug. 21, 2016, 7:25 pm

80Jesse_wiedinmyer
Aug. 21, 2016, 7:30 pm

This thread is complete horse shit..

81davidgn
Bearbeitet: Aug. 21, 2016, 9:01 pm

>76 lriley: All reasonable claims, as far as they go. But remember, for instance, what Antonio Maria Costa said in 2009.
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-c...

And the HSBC farce of 2012
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-...

And, if you care to delve further, a couple of studies by professors at UC-Berkeley and UW-Madison.
Cocaine Politics
The Politics of Heroin

And, perhaps, this suggestive little tidbit:
http://articles.latimes.com/1999/jun/27/news/mn-50699
as explored by former managing director of Dillon Read & Co. and Assistant Secretary of Housing under Bush 41, Catherine Austin Fitts, in this piece for Narco News later republished in New Zealand.

All of the above just off the top of my head.

The thrust of the all of the above being to say, the situation is not so simple as you've outlined. Anyone who proposes to "end the war on drugs" has got a massive uphill fight on their hands, the scope of which they may not even comprehend, against entrenched interests at every level -- from local gravy-train-riding police departments to far loftier perches than most might imagine. Observe how even marijuana decriminalization has been fought tooth and nail: drug money as generated by the prohibition economy is simply too useful for too many interests. If you want to know why we have made so little headway on drug policy since the watershed Consumers Union Report on Licit and Illicit Drugs -- 44 years ago now! -- the resources above might be a very good place to start.

ETA:
If you want to follow the financial end more closely, I highly recommend Global Financial Integrity director Raymond Baker's Capitalism's Achilles Heel, as well as this positively electrifying synopsis which he delivered for the Connecticut World Affairs Council: http://library.fora.tv/2006/02/16/Capitalism_s_Achilles_Heel

82krazy4katz
Aug. 21, 2016, 9:24 pm

>71 proximity1: The problem (as I see it) is that Trump has been steeped in nothing useful. Instead of an oligarchy (as you describe it) you would get a monarchy, and a particularly ignorant one at best — an evil one at worst. On the other hand, he is so clueless it is hard to imagine that he could avoid impeachment within the first 100 days. I don't see that he conclusively contributes anything. He is just a sad reflection on the inability of this nation to really see what they are looking at. I would have been interested in Kasich, for example. Might still have voted for Hillary but he would at least have been a reasonable choice.

83lriley
Bearbeitet: Aug. 21, 2016, 10:26 pm

#81---that's all very ugly. And I don't doubt that it's true but....this war on drugs still has ruined the lives of a lot of non-violent people. It can't or shouldn't continue if only because it's not right. The United States with 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated has turned incarcerating people into one of its strongest growth industries. This is an eat yourself proposition and an eat your young proposition. And it's racist besides. This is not how you build a great society--more like how you destroy it.

84davidgn
Bearbeitet: Aug. 21, 2016, 11:01 pm

>83 lriley: Couldn't agree more. I'm merely trying to point out the realities of the economic and power structures as they stand. The implied corollary -- which is what makes all this relevant to the thread -- is that Johnson is either naive or disingenuous... or at best, quixotic.

85proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 22, 2016, 2:25 am

>82 krazy4katz: : ..."The problem (as I see it) is that Trump has been steeped in nothing useful. Instead of an oligarchy (as you describe it) you would get a monarchy, and a particularly ignorant one at best — an evil one at worst."

Think before you write. "Monarchy"? That's nonsense when Trump, as a 'non-accredited' rich man would be facing stiff opposition from the globalisation/technocratic factions of the oligarchy; numerous of them hold key positions in government. For example, Paul Ryan, as Speaker again, would be the "best-case"-scenario for Trump since the alternative pesupposes Trump facing a nominally "Democratic party" House majority & Speaker. ( So King The Donald the First would have the House and the Senate and the supreme court dogging his every move. And his appointments require Senate approval. Some "monarch"! )

Even where Trump does have genuine experience--the practice of self-serving cronyism--he is much the junior of people like the Clintons and their DLC peers.

Was Obama some sort of monarch? Of course not. Well Trump's relations with the ruling technocratic elite make Obama's do-almost-nothing (except disastrous stuff) tenure look like one long honeymoon romance.

Trump's wing (if it may even be called that) is in fact and by far simply a minor and upstart part of the wealthy elite. This is a fight between the long-standing power-wielders-- the highly-organized elite advocates of global financial monopoly of political power (if monarchical-like rule troubles you, start there; but even that doesn't constitute a monarchy) on one hand, versus, on the other, a morally and socially strange mixture which includes circa-1950s Time/Life magazine notions of patriotism, family home-life, workplace and industrial norms and political power relations all in the present-day world of high bandwidth internetworked computer-managed control systems.

Trump's faction, as his campaign illustrates, has, by contrast, perhaps lots of money, but apparently very little in organizational know-how and no experience in running (well or badly) official public political affairs.

But the permanent government is already organized to the hilt. Neither Reagan nor George W. Bush, the most prominent recent examples of intellectual featherweights in the White House, had to actually organize and run much of the government. They had long-time experts to do that.

The president' s role and purpose is to provide the government's behemoth bureaucracy with a guiding and a purpose-giving moral vision. He (or she) is to exemplify that in the decisions taken, the judgements made concerning the prsssing social and economic issues of the time.

For the long-standing technocratic oligarchy's rule, this has meant a morally bankrupt political order driven by ill-considered --and often simply false --assumptions thought to be based on and required by so-called principles of cost accounting and efficiency-experts' models.

Trump's election would not end or halt the oligarchy. It would, however, put its present strategy of ownership & operation of the Democratic party into serious question.

86proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 22, 2016, 10:00 am

One of the technocracy's major mouthpieces speaks up--endorsing the Clintons, of course :



Scott Dadich | Culture | Date of Publication: 08.18.16. | Time of Publication: 12:00 am.


( Headline ) : WIRED Endorses Optimism

" WIRED has never been neutral.

"For nearly a quarter of a century, this organization has championed a specific way of thinking about tomorrow. If it’s true, as the writer William Gibson once had it, that the future is already here, just unevenly distributed, then our task has been to locate the places where various futures break through to our present and identify which one we hope for.

"Our founders—Louis Rossetto, Jane Metcalfe, and Kevin Kelly—all supported a strain of optimistic libertarianism native to Silicon Valley. The future they endorsed was the one they saw manifested in the early Internet: one where self-organizing networks would replace old hierarchies. To them, the US government was one of those kludgy, inefficient legacy systems that mainly just get in the way.

"Over the past couple of decades, we’ve gotten to watch their future play out: We’ve seen the creative energies of countless previously invisible communities unleashed—and, well, we’ve watched networks become just as good at concentrating wealth and influence in the hands of a few people as the old hierarchies were. We’ve seen geeks become billionaires, autocrats become hackers, and our readers (people curious about how technology is shaping the world) become the American mainstream. Like any sane group of thinkers, we’ve calibrated our judgments along the way. But much of our worldview hasn’t changed. We value freedom: open systems, open markets, free people, free information, free inquiry. We’ve become even more dedicated to scientific rigor, good data, and evidence-driven thinking. And we’ve never lost our optimism.

"I bring all this up because, for all of its opinions and enthu­siasms, WIRED has never made a practice of endorsing candidates for president of the United States. Through five election cycles we’ve written about politics and politicians and held them up against our ideals. But we’ve avoided telling you, our readers, who WIRED viewed as the best choice.

"Today we will. WIRED sees only one person running for president who can do the job: Hillary Clinton.

"Right now we see two possible futures welling up in the present. In one, society’s every decision is dominated by scarcity. Except for a few oligarchs, nobody has enough of anything. In that future, we build literal and figurative walls to keep out those who hope to acquire our stuff, while through guile or violence we try to acquire theirs.

"In the other future, the one WIRED is rooting for, new rounds of innovation allow people to do more with less work—in a way that translates into abundance, broadly enjoyed. Governments and markets and entrepreneurs create the conditions that allow us to take effective collective action against climate change. The flashlight beam of science keeps turning up cool stuff in the corners of the universe. The grand social experiments of the 20th and early 21st centuries—the mass entry of women into the workforce, civil rights, LGBTQ rights—continue and give way to new ones that are just as necessary and unsettling and empowering to people who got left out of previous rounds. And the sustainably manufactured, genetically modified fake meat tastes really good too."


°°° °°°

... "But having met Clinton and talked about all these issues with her, I can tell you that her mastery of issues and detail is unlike that of any politician I’ve met. She comes to every policy conversation steeped in its history and implications, and with opinions from a diverse set of viewpoints. She is a technician, and we like technicians.

°°° °°°

... "Her campaign has been trying to incept us with these ideas for months now, of course: Her vision is bright and forward-looking; Donald Trump’s is dark and atavistic. She’s qualified, she knows the material; Trump is all bluster. We happen to believe that for all the barbs aimed at Hillary Clinton—the whole calculating, tactical, Tracy Flick enchilada—she is the only candidate who can assess the data, consult with the people who need to be heard, and make decisions that she can logically defend. Sure, she’s calculating. She’s tactical. There are worse things you can ask of a person with nuclear codes.

Perhaps you feel like this is a low bar: Support a candidate because she believes in science? Get behind a politician because she approaches policymaking like a professional? Maybe you were hoping to be more inspired. We think the opportunity presented to us is more than inspiring enough. The country can go one of two ways, right now: toward a future where working together in good faith has a chance, or toward nihilism.

Trump’s campaign started out like something from The Onion. Now it has moved into George Orwell–as–interpreted–by–Paul Verhoeven territory. When he isn’t insulting the parents of a dead soldier, or promising to build an impossible wall between the US and Mexico to keep out rapists, or advocating a ban on Muslims, he’s saying that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are the founders of ISIS, or that “Second Amendment people” should do something about his opponent, or that he watched a nonexistent video of a plane delivering cash to Iran. And that’s mostly stuff he said in the space of a few weeks.

When Trump beats up on Clinton for her misuse of a private email server as secretary of state—an egregious mistake that the head of the FBI called “extremely careless”—we hear him. But when Trump goes on to ask Russian hackers to continue their apparent assaults on an American election by finding more of Clinton’s emails, even as a wan joke, he takes the side of the arsonists while attacking his opponent for a fire code violation. When he says the press is corrupt and the electoral system is rigged, he’s not acting like someone who wants to lead. He’s acting like someone who demands to be followed.

Ultimately, it’s impossible to judge Trump’s claims as actual statements of belief or intention. We don’t know if President Trump would totally renege on that Paris commitment or actually pursue his policy of Muslim exclusion; but we have to assume he’ll try. We have no way of knowing if he actually believes that vaccines cause autism, as he claimed in a debate, but they don’t. Does he really think that wind power kills “all your birds”? Who knows. But it doesn’t; cats kill all your birds.

Here’s the thing about Donald Trump: In his 14 months as a political candidate, he has demonstrated an utter indifference to the truth and to reality itself. He appears to seek only his own validation from the most revanchist, xenophobic crowds in America. He is trolling, hard.

When we say we’re optimistic, it isn’t just because we can point you to a trove of evidence that we’re all very, very lucky to be alive right now: We live longer, we’re less violent, and there’s less extreme poverty than at any time in human history. And it’s not just because optimism is endemic to Silicon Valley, though that’s also true. It’s because of the way optimism conditions how people act in the world. As Stewart Brand, one of our heroes, once described in these pages, people behave better when they think things are improving: “If you truly think things are getting worse, won’t you grab everything you can, while you can? Reap now, sow nothing. But if you think things are getting better, you invest in the future. Sow now, reap later.” 1

We’ll keep fighting for the future instead of for the past. And part of that fight is endorsing Hillary Clinton for president.

Of course it would be glib for privileged people like us to expect everyone to just buck up about tomorrow. The future isn’t the only thing that’s unevenly distributed in the present: so are wealth, influence, skills, and other deep-seated advantages. So are fears. It’s easy to celebrate the digital revolution when it has enriched the 40 square blocks surrounding your office; less so when you’ve seen your wages stagnate over the past 35 years. It’s natural to welcome social justice when it vests you in American culture and not, I suppose, when it tells you that you’ve been the problem all along. We don’t blame people for worrying about their future. But we think most Americans recognize that it’s important to have leaders who believe things get better from here—who want to build things other than barriers.


Besides, Donald Trump’s supporters aren’t even the people who have been most left behind by globalism and technology. Consider that, institutionally, Trump has no better remaining friend than the National Rifle Association, whose industry leaders have profited enormously from the climate of fear and paranoia surrounding mass shootings. And according to a recent study of Trump supporters by Gallup—the most extensive one yet—the candidate’s rank-and-file fans are in fact wealthier than average and less likely to live in areas affected by immigration and trade. The most charitable explanation is that they are afraid their children will lose ground.
2 But let’s be clear: What these Americans stand to lose is nothing compared to the threat their political movement now poses to millions of African-Americans, Muslims, and immigrants, who experience the rise of Trumpism as an immediate menace to their families.

The person who has the least to lose is Trump, who has a long history of walking away relatively unscathed from things he’s destroyed.

So no, WIRED has never been neutral. But now we’re declaring our alignment—one shared by an overwhelming number of tech leaders. The newsroom will continue to do critical, fair journalism about both candidates and the world around us. We’ll keep fighting for the future instead of for the past. And part of that fight is endorsing Hillary Clinton for president.

---------------------

Scott Dadich is the editor-in-chief of WIRED.

1 : This deserves _much _ more attention than it gets here or elsewhere.

2 : Note --the embedded link is my addition, not part of the original editorial endorsement.


{ The article Hope is what separates Clinton voters from Trump voters is by Andrew McGill, published by The Atlantic magazine, 19 August, 2016 }

----

"It’s pretty clear who Donald Trump wants to help, because he names them at every rally. Miners. Steelworkers. Guys on the assembly line, whose jobs are either being stolen by the Chinese or strangled to death by Obama’s regulations. If globalization has put your livelihood in jeopardy, Trump wants you on his side. And given his sky-high popularity among white men without a college degree, I’d argue this pitch is gaining traction.

But here’s the weird thing: Folks in hard-hit industrial towns aren’t voting for Trump. When Michigan Republicans went to the polls in March, economists expected to see huge Trump turnout in areas with the most shuttered factories. Instead, they got the opposite: Trump’s support was strongest in towns that had gained manufacturing jobs. He did about 20 percentage points worse in areas where layoffs were most intense. It was completely the opposite of what everyone expected.

Earlier this month, Gallup economist Jonathan Rothwell published a working paper expanding the Michigan analysis to the entire country. This time, he used opinion poll results instead of vote totals, making the data more current. Rothwell found the same trend: Trump did worse in towns that lost manufacturing jobs between 2000 and 2007, and better in areas that gained them. Indeed, Trump is most popular in prosperous areas. Apparently, economic pain doesn’t guarantee votes for the Republican nominee, and economic success is no guard against him.

I’d argue the real dividing line is optimism. Consider this: Two-thirds of Hillary Clinton’s supporters think the next generation will be in better shape than we are today, or least the same, according to Pew Research. The reverse is true for Trump’s camp. Sixty-eight percent of his supporters think the next generation will be worse off. What’s more, the vast majority of Trump voters say life is worse today for people like them than it was 50 years ago. Only two percent —two!— think life is better now and that their children will also see improvement.


87artturnerjr
Aug. 22, 2016, 9:53 am

>86 proximity1:

Seems like a reasonable and well-written argument to me (I am particularly fond of the line about Trump's campaign moving into "George Orwell–as–interpreted–by–Paul Verhoeven territory").
But, y'know, I'm just a know-nothing, hypnotized by the mainstream media, who will no doubt continue to infuriate you at least until November 8th, if not beyond.

PS An important point raised by this piece that I don't think has been mentioned heretofore in this thread: Hillary Clinton believes in science. Donald Trump (if one is to believe his rhetoric, which, I will grant, is a rather dubious proposition), on the other hand, does not. This does, in fact, make a difference.

88proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 22, 2016, 11:02 am

>87 artturnerjr:


"Seems like a reasonable and well-written argument to me (I am particularly fond of the line about Trump's campaign moving into "George Orwell–as–interpreted–by–Paul Verhoeven territory").

But, y'know, I'm just a know-nothing, hypnotized by the mainstream media, who will no doubt continue to infuriate you at least until November 8th, if not beyond."


(You don't infuriate me.)

What? You mean the endorsement didn't strike you as naive, stupid, self-serving and self-justifying blinkered pap?

E.g. You didn't pause at these points and marvel at the self-absorbed and simplistic naivety?

"Over the past couple of decades, we’ve gotten to watch their future play out"...

..."we can point you to a trove of evidence that we’re all very, very lucky to be alive right now:" ... { all? }

"We’ll keep fighting for the future instead of for the past."

{I suppose modesty --or was it rather just his transparent way of taking things for granted?--that prevented Dadich from just going ahead and capitalizing the "t" in "the", right?}

"Hillary Clinton believes in science."

Of course she does*. "Science" gave us the drones and the 'smart-bombs' she'll be watching via live computer-feed-video from her executive armchair in the Situation Room deployed just moments after her having given the verbal authorizations.

*: Lol! Never mind about the issues of what's to be or not to be done with "science," the point is she "believes in it" and that's all that should matter to us.

89proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 22, 2016, 11:23 am

More (hilarity) from the MSM :

(Politico.com) "What if Trump won't accept defeat?" by Eli Stokols :



Donald Trump is on track to lose in November and to refuse to accept the legitimacy of that Election Day result. That’s a problem not just for Hillary Clinton but for both political parties and the country. ...

...Trump began to suggest that the election would be “fixed” last month as Hillary Clinton opened a lead following July’s party conventions. “The only way we can lose, in my opinion — I really mean this, Pennsylvania — is if cheating goes on,” Trump said at a rally in Altoona. Days earlier in Wilmington, North Carolina, he’d warned that without stronger voter identification laws people would be “voting 15 times for Hillary.” The first image of a Trump campaign ad, released on Friday, is that of a polling place as a narrator alleges “the system” is “rigged”; and his campaign has already begun recruiting volunteers to monitor polling places, specifically in urban precincts where African-American voters, very few of which support Trump, predominate.

Trump’s words are having an effect. Just 38 percent of Trump supporters believe their votes will be counted accurately; and only 49 percent of all registered voters are “very confident” their votes will be tabulated without error, according to a Pew Research survey last week.

The implications — short- and long-term — are serious. Interviews with more than a dozen senior GOP operatives suggest growing panic that Trump’s descent down this alt-right rabbit hole and, beyond that, his efforts to de-legitimize the very institutions that undergird American democracy — the media and the electoral process itself — threaten not just their congressional majorities or the party’s survival but, potentially, the stability of the country’s political system.

“We’ve never had a presidential candidate who has questioned the legitimacy of an electoral outcome nationally,” said Dan Senor, who was a foreign policy adviser to Mitt Romney’s 2012 campaign. “This does take us to a whole new world if the actual presidential candidate is questioning the legitimacy of this process, and the damage to our democracy could be substantial.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/donald-trump-concede-succession-227252#ixz...
------


Wow! Papers! Extra! Extra! Soon-to-Lose Spoiled-sport Trump threatens to de-legitimize our democracy! Extra! Read all about it! Damge to democracy (by Trump, not election-fraud) "could be substantial" ! Papers! Get your papers! Extra! Democracy in peril from sore-loser!

90JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 22, 2016, 11:51 am

At first blush I thought I finally agreed with something trump advocated:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-clinton-foundation_us_57bafad0e4b03d51...;

But, no, shutting it down is not necessary. However -

1. The Clintons should divest themselves from any connection to the Clinton Foundation.

2. The Clinton Foundation should be turned over to some third party to operate. This new organization should be scrutinized by all concerned parties to insure that the vast majority of the money is used for charitable purposes and not for luxurious expenses and/or possible rip-offs by the directors, as happened under the Clintons.

3. The name of the organization should be changed to something without the word "Clinton" in it. Leave the narcissistic labeling of things to the trumps of the world.

4. The Clintons should give full and robust apologies for their past activities in the organization, which will include denials of any impropriety, sure, but at least they should acknowledge that they made a mistake in creating the "appearance" of possible impropriety.

I think that all of the above is necessary now and is all that need be done.

If it is not done then, sure, the Clintons should be ragged unmercifully about it until they remove themselves from the "Clinton" foundation. TITS - to insure victory over trump the Clintons must engage in more mea culpa than present or - well fuck them if they don't.

91lriley
Aug. 22, 2016, 3:12 pm

I found this interesting from Colin Powell's former chief of staff Lawrence Wilkerson. The first half Wilkerson talks about Hillary Clinton's foreign policy. The second half about Donald Trump's. Wilkerson does not like Clinton at all but he absolutely eviscerates the republican party in the second half--pretty much saying that they stand in the way of any kind of social progress in this century. On Trump though the question that starts at around 13:40 and the answer given to it that ends around 15:05 is as telling enough a reason why Donald Trump is unfit to hold any elected office let alone the highest elected office.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEzACPZqMyY

92RickHarsch
Aug. 22, 2016, 3:51 pm

I suppose we should be glad Trump hasn't the Machiavellian gene.

93JGL53
Aug. 22, 2016, 4:01 pm

This is an interesting read. I've been thinking along the same lines now for several months:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/08/22/trumps-real-endgame...

This is like Limbaugh with his ten or twenty million goofball followers. Limbaugh could give a shit that 70 or even 90 per cent of the country either think he is racist scum, an irrelevant nutso blowhard, or don't even know who he is. He is made of money. Thus, in his humble opinion, he wins.

If trump can come out of this with even 25 per cent of the vote then he will be set up for a billion dollar media empire catering to the worst elements in the country. Sitting on the billions to be made he could laugh like a hydrophobic hyena at the 75 per cent of Americans who hate his guts or think he is a fool.

So, if this theory does not explain trump then I'll be goddamned if I can figure the bastard out except to assume that he has fourth stage syphilis or the equivalent.

94proximity1
Aug. 23, 2016, 3:17 am

"FBI uncovered 15,000 more documents in Clinton email probe."

Look over there! It's Donald Trump! Watch out! He's dangerous to the nation! He's crazy! There's no telling what he might do if the impossible happened and I wasn't elected!

95JGL53
Aug. 23, 2016, 1:00 pm

trump is a white supremacist.

HRC is not.

HRC wins.

End of debate.

96krazy4katz
Aug. 23, 2016, 4:02 pm

Works for me.

97St._Troy
Aug. 23, 2016, 4:35 pm

>94 proximity1: "Look over there! It's Donald Trump! Watch out! He's dangerous to the nation! He's crazy! There's no telling what he might do if the impossible happened and I wasn't elected!"

The thing is, this strategy seems to be mighty effective in some quarters.

98proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 24, 2016, 8:27 am

>97 St._Troy:

Yes, indeed it's very effective.

Those using it are well aware of this--unlike the naive, politically unsophisticated and infantalized people who are its target-victims.

What impresses mass audiences? Money, fame, power, charisma--and high-tech gadgetry and those who are seen to possess, own, control or operate these.

Those with money and very expensive high-tech gadgets impress lots of people as necessarily superior in some way because of their possession of these.

For proof, just consider popular films and television--so often replete with technology often used as feature and set décor, part of the storyline and aura of the principal characters--hero, villain, anti-hero. In films, we're shown types modeled after the real or imagined present-day (or science-fiction) command-and-control centers--a high-tech stock and commodities trader's operation rooms, the operation center of an aircraft carrier, the White House Situation Room, bank upon bank of top-end data-procesing servers, police or military or intelligence agencies' headquartered remote-surveillance --such is the stuff which contemporary films use again and again for glamour-effect on the audience.

Many wealthy, too, are extremely impressed by high-tech gadgetry and use it to enhance their public image and, for some, their self-image. And that is very effective in many quarters. It disarms even those who'd criticize it because so many are under this spell.

For those who doubt the importance, just have a look at what just part of the multi-billion dollar industry offers those who have lots of money to go with their egos and their idolization of techno-gadgetry: search, for example, "integrated" + "custom home" + "technology"

Some examples :

http://www.s-waves.com

http://www.rticorp.com

http://www.customhomeonline.com/tag/home-technology

http://www.cedia.org/about

CEDIA EXPO :

https://youtu.be/oR5OPxo_9ZQ

99proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 25, 2016, 2:48 am

(continued from >98 proximity1: )


There is other harm to the body politic --much worse harm--going on under the cover of these emotionally-charged distractions. It passes with little or no attention from the public or our now even more discredited press. It concerns, in part, that same press--its further degradation from an already deplorable state of irresponsibility.

Once again: the drama of the Clintons versus Trump is only an episode in the life of this oligarchic republic--a fight over certain relatively minor differences (from our point of view) between factions of the wealthy oligarchy. There are still larger and more serious things deserving our concern than the battle of the egos of these two principals.

However, a public which is not up to meeting the challenge of seeing through these distractions is even less likely to recognize the other long-term damage being done to the foundations of a potential democratic political order which the oligarchy has already neutered and now wants to render beyond any hope of rehabilitation.

That's being done while the Clintons vs. Trump programmed drama plays out.

Whether this other harm is happening by way of a designed and intentional effort or merely as a by-product of our already badly corrupted political affairs is debatable; but the practical consequences are the same either way.

If the question were posed to self-described political liberals in the abstract, "Would you say that, in order to defeat your partisan opponents at elections, any and all means are good and valid, no matter their harms to our system's foundations?" nearly any self-respecting defender of liberal political principles should have answered, "Of course not; preserving the system's fair operating principles is more important than winning a single election contest or a whole set of them in one election cycle."

Current events have demonstrated that this latter is now a distinctly minority view for all practical intents and purposes.

It is clear that whatever they may say in the abstract case, in the concrete case of Clinton vs. Trump, most self-described liberals want to see Trump defeated at any cost to the system's tattered integrity. Do whatever it takes--just as long as this man is kept from any majority or plurality which might send him to the White House as the next president. If that requires the most shocking of press practices, the complete and open abandonment of journalistic standards of fair and honest practice, so be it. If that requires using every art of duplicity in registering voters and in taking and tabulating their ballots, so be it. The importance of defeating Trump --even if by hook or crook--supersedes all else. A fair and just political order? We don't have one in the first place and, even if we did, we ought to readily sacrifice it and do whatever may be necessary to keep this man out of elected office. And how, by the way, are we to know in advance just what is or is not necessary to secure our objective? In short, we ought to do everything conceivable, fair or foul, to stop this man's progress--as it seems we are doing. We can worry about the injuries to this failed republic later; we can assess the damage done in stopping Trump later.

That, in sum, is obviously the accepted reasoning behind what we can see going on --by our own, hand, not the hidden hand of oligarchs.

All this spells very grave and long-term harm to the foundations of any potential democratic order--it means their continued destruction brought down to a new low in living memory.

The "quality press" and much --though not all--of the politically-attentive and reading part of the liberal general public have made themselves parties to this and at.the same time have little appreciation of the harms to which they are contributing.

But a powerful oligarchic elite are very much aware of how these harms--taken and justified by others as short-cuts made necessary by a supposedly unprecedented set of circumstances--further their own interests in seeing democratic foundations degraded to a still lower condition--a weaker, even less responsible press if that is even possible. We are in the process of seeing the limits tested. It means a meaner, even more cynical operation of electoral politics in which even the former debased semblance of fair-play is unceremoniously dropped in order to stop a contender who our establishment technocrats deem to be beyond the pale.

Doing essential things the right way has become secondary to doing them in order that "the right result" is obtained one way or another. But nothing, principles included, is to be spared in the process.

To drag our already debased political order down to this level is very much the dream and conscious objective of the elite oligarchic interests who can quite well recognize that this is the course we are on. They have every reason to be delighted whether they planned for this outcome or not.

The chances of an eventual potential recovery of what has been lost in democracy's fragile essentials have been made even more remote by the political attitudes and behavior of political liberals and the mainstream press driven by fear and desperation. They've done a remarkable job of making a very bad situation even worse.

100JGL53
Aug. 24, 2016, 6:15 pm

Jesus Christ, what's that SMELL?

Oh, yeah - donald 'micro-penis' trump is in the neighborhood.

http://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/politics/2016/08/24/live-coverage-donald...

101K.J.
Aug. 25, 2016, 3:23 am

There are other choices, such as Jill Stein. She has a very similar platform to what Bernie Sanders was proposing and she seems to have her head on straight. So far, no corruption in her background and she isn't ranting about tossing every dark-skinned person off US terra firma. From this side of the pond she would seem to be the logical choice, for intelligent people. As for the "Nader" argument, it doesn't appear to hold water, as demonstrated by this article (one of many similar): http://disinfo.com/2010/11/debunked-the-myth-that-ralph-nader-cost-al-gore-the-2...

102proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 26, 2016, 3:35 am

Diese Nachricht wurde vom Autor gelöscht.

103proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 25, 2016, 4:03 am

RE: >99 proximity1:

From the fucking New York Post, which has quite sophisticated software that prevents posting excerpts with accompanying links--embedded or not. This piece is by Michael Goodwin, August 21, 2016 --if they'll permit me to tell the reader that.

"American Journalism is collapsing before our eyes"



Donald Trump may or may not fix his campaign, and Hillary Clinton may or may not become the first female president. But something else happening before our eyes is almost as important: the complete collapse of American journalism as we know it.

The frenzy to bury Trump is not limited to the Clinton campaign and the Obama White House. They are working hand in hand with what was considered the cream of the nation’s news organizations.
The shameful display of naked partisanship by the elite media is unlike anything seen in modern America.

The largest broadcast networks — CBS, NBC and ABC — and major newspapers like the New York Times and Washington Post have jettisoned all pretense of fair play. Their fierce determination to keep Trump out of the Oval Office has no precedent.


Indeed, no foreign enemy, no terror group, no native criminal gang suffers the daily beating that Trump does. The mad mullahs of Iran, who call America the Great Satan and vow to wipe Israel off the map, are treated gently by comparison.

By torching its remaining credibility in service of Clinton, the mainstream media’s reputations will likely never recover, nor will the standards. No future producer, editor, reporter or anchor can be expected to meet a test of fairness when that standard has been trashed in such willful and blatant fashion.

Liberal bias in journalism is often baked into the cake. The traditional ethos of comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable leads to demands that government solve every problem. Favoring big government, then, becomes routine among most journalists, especially young ones.


I know because I was one of them. I started at the Times while the Vietnam War and civil rights movement raged, and was full of certainty about right and wrong.

My editors were, too, though in a different way. Our boss of bosses, the legendary Abe Rosenthal, knew his reporters leaned left, so he leaned right to “keep the paper straight.”

That meant the Times, except for the opinion pages, was scrubbed free of reporters’ political views, an edict that was enforced by giving the opinion and news operations separate editors. The church-and-state structure was one reason the Times was considered the flagship of journalism.

Those days are gone. The Times now is so out of the closet as a Clinton shill that it is giving itself permission to violate any semblance of evenhandedness in its news pages as well as its opinion pages." ...


--------------

104proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 25, 2016, 4:27 am

>101 K.J.:

Neither now, with Jill Stein as its candidate, nor previously, as far as I am aware, has the Green party ever won so much as a single presidential delegate. Never won a single presidential primary. Of course, the mainstream news mass-media have much to do with keeping such candidacies from ever catching on, but, still, this same collection of news purveyors did its best to shrug off the Sanders campaign and those efforts failed.

Q : Why can't--or doesn't--the Green Party "catch fire"? I am not impressed by its candidate and that is not least because, even if elected, she would do absolutely nothing to seriously challenge the oligarchy's duopoly. Her election would be seen as --and proven to be, after one term--a complete fluke.

How is a respectable effort to replace the role and part of a major national party like the Democratic Party to be taken seriously when what ought to be a much simpler task--its rescue from the clutches of Neo-cons in the form of the Clintons and the DLC--proves more than would-be rescuers can handle?

105lriley
Aug. 25, 2016, 9:43 am

Trump is not left wing or progressive in any way, shape or form. So for me he's disqualified right there. On the question of whether or not he represents oligarchy--well he's a billionaire and he's already described many times over how he's leveraged politicians (including the Clinton's) into doing him favors. He may represent for some someone outside the box--but the outside the box that I see is not good at all.

106artturnerjr
Aug. 25, 2016, 9:49 am

>99 proximity1:

If that requires using every art of duplicity in registering voters and in taking and tabulating their ballots, so be it.

Some examples of this occurring on the Democratic side, please.

a contender who our establishment technocrats deem to be beyond the pale.

Technocrats aren't the only ones who think Trump is beyond the pale.

107Jesse_wiedinmyer
Aug. 25, 2016, 10:06 am

>99 proximity1:

Have you ever considered responding to people that aren't yourself?

108lriley
Aug. 25, 2016, 10:36 am

Trump just added Ed Feulner to his transition team. So it's Feulner and Chris Christie. What a team! Feulner's the former president of the Heritage Foundation---the right wing neo-conservative think tank so if anyone actually thinks that Trump's economic or trade policies have any basis in share the wealth Keynesian economics you might want to think again.

109Jesse_wiedinmyer
Aug. 25, 2016, 10:50 am

The Wall Street Journal just called Trump alt-Right.

110proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 25, 2016, 11:16 am

>106 artturnerjr:

Re :

... "If that requires using every art of duplicity in registering voters and in taking and tabulating their ballots, so be it.

"Some examples of this occurring on the Democratic side, please."

What you cite from me, calling for concrete examples on the part of Democrats, is part of my summary description of how I imagine the prevailing mood and temperament among many self-described liberals to be now that they're faced with the necessity of defeating Trump. So far, what I consider to have been part of the recent work by Democrats in electoral fraud on the part of officials who are personally in favor of seeing Clinton elected has been confined to the primaries--in which Sanders, rather than Trump, was the target.

We've yet to see what tactics Clinton could use against Trump since there has yet to be anything (yet?) in casting ballots except perhaps for some mail-In ballots and early-voting.

So, no, the premise of your challenge for examples is correct: where it comes to Trump, at this point, I have nothing concrete to which I can point.

Re:

..."Technocrats aren't the only ones who think Trump is beyond the pale."

Right, they're not. But I mention them because the usual types of credentials which are taken to be the required bona fides by which people are measured and evaluated for their "seriousness," their "competence," are those they hold--in which, of course, Trump is lacking.

111K.J.
Aug. 25, 2016, 11:21 am

Change requires courage, and very little of that is being shown, at the moment. Much wailing and pulling at the hair, but very little effort being made to force change. Trump is an ugly choice and HRC is more toxic than a nuclear meltdown. There is no fix for the US system, without a major overhaul.

As for the Green Party's candidate, I've listened to her speeches and read much of her written material. I think she is impressive, especially in light of the ugliness and corruption that is everyday politics in the US. Granted, the world is in a pile of excrement, at the moment, but the US is at the top of the heap. HRC got away with rigging an election and keeping an illegal server at her residence. If that doesn't spark any activity the populace will likely get what it deserves. You have options and at least one of them is viable.

112proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 25, 2016, 11:38 am

>105 lriley: "Trump is not left wing or progressive in any way, shape or form. So for me he's disqualified right there."

/ >108 lriley: ... "so if anyone actually thinks that Trump's economic or trade policies have any basis in share the wealth Keynesian economics you might want to think again."

See:
Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) & Trans-Pacific Partnership - (Wikipedia, the free )...

--------

So for me he's qualified right there.

Keynes would argue that opposing these nefarious trade pacts is a "share-the-wealth" -based opposition.

113proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 25, 2016, 12:09 pm

>111 K.J.:

You're welcome to vote for Stein and call on others to do the same.

I recall having been at first similarly impressed by Barack Obama in 2008. But even before I had a chance to vote, I changed my view of him as wildly over-promising an already badly-abused electorate's faith and trust.

I see Stein as having Obama's failed promise as an obstacle to overcome.

This:


New Democrats
Barack Obama and Bill Clinton

Ideology
Centrism Cultural liberalism Radical centrism Social liberalism Third Way

Variants
Boll weevil Clintonism Conservative Democrat

People
Bruce Babbitt Evan Bayh John Carney Tom Carper Lawton Chiles Bill Clinton Hillary Clinton Gerry Connolly Jim Davis Susan Davis Cal Dooley John Edwards Harold Ford Jr. Al From Dick Gephardt Al Gore Bob Graham Jim Himes John Kerry Ron Kind Mary Landrieu Rick Larsen Joe Lieberman Blanche Lincoln Will Marshall Jim Moran Sam Nunn Barack Obama Jared Polis Chuck Robb Timothy J. Roemer Allyson Schwartz Adam Smith

Organizations
Blue Dog Coalition Coalition for a Democratic Majority Committee on Party Effectiveness Democratic Leadership Council Moderate Dems Working Group New Democrat Coalition New Democrat Network Progressive Policy Institute Senate Centrist Coalition Third Way


leaves me disgusted, fed up and suspicious of this :



Harvard University, B.A., M.D.



But I concede that there's hardly a policy position of any great importance on which I disagree with her views.

114prosfilaes
Aug. 25, 2016, 12:27 pm

>99 proximity1: It is clear that whatever they may say in the abstract case, in the concrete case of Clinton vs. Trump, most self-described liberals want to see Trump defeated at any cost to the system's tattered integrity. Do whatever it takes--just as long as this man is kept from any majority or plurality which might send him to the White House as the next president. If that requires the most shocking of press practices, the complete and open abandonment of journalistic standards of fair and honest practice, so be it. If that requires using every art of duplicity in registering voters and in taking and tabulating their ballots, so be it. The importance of defeating Trump --even if by hook or crook--supersedes all else. A fair and just political order? We don't have one in the first place and, even if we did, we ought to readily sacrifice it and do whatever may be necessary to keep this man out of elected office. And how, by the way, are we to know in advance just what is or is not necessary to secure our objective? In short, we ought to do everything conceivable, fair or foul, to stop this man's progress--as it seems we are doing. We can worry about the injuries to this failed republic later; we can assess the damage done in stopping Trump later.

Nice demagoguery. Completely lacking in clear factual claims or citations.

The most illegitimate thing is the way that voting rules have been changed with the deliberate target of excluding Democratic voters. (Not that I believe that Democrats wouldn't do the same thing necessarily, but expanding the voter base has generally been to the Democratic advantage.)

115JGL53
Bearbeitet: Aug. 25, 2016, 11:27 pm

trump is a god damn white supremacist and a maniac in general.

There is no debate or discussion needed here.

If one supports trump then one is an ignorant asshole at best and a white supremacist at worst.

Vote for Stein and assume the masses will choose the lesser of evils. Assume that if HRC really needs your individual vote to win then she is a fucked goose.

Period.

Forgot all the rest the shit which people pump out.

Moving on - so who will win the Super Bowl in 2017?

116RickHarsch
Aug. 25, 2016, 3:41 pm

>107 Jesse_wiedinmyer: I know you aren't talking to me, but p1 is terribly busy, so I will take his call: No, sir, that has not been considered. Next?

117proximity1
Bearbeitet: Aug. 27, 2016, 9:22 am



Clinton hides, Trump slides, the republic subsides | The Plain Dealer By Kevin OBrien, on August 26, 2016 at 7:15 AM


This may go down in history as the presidential election that made everyone angry.

That, at least, would offer some hope that Americans' taste in presidential candidates might be redeemable.

For now, though, all is bleak. The crook keeps proving more unabashedly crooked and the flake just keeps getting flakier.

Hillary's horror show

There's no new lesson to learn from plumbing the depths of Hillary Clinton's corruption or marveling at the heights of her mendacity. She's as dirty as the day is long, and has been since the day she wriggled out of the Arkansas mud 1 to become a public figure. This we knew.

All we're getting now are more accurate readings of how low she has gone.

We probably will never know all of the wrong she has done, or all of the details of her criminality — the way the private email server was used during her time at the State Department certainly was illegal 2, no matter how circumstances forced FBI Director James Comey to spin it 3.

Now, the news is about the many matches 4 between the names in her formerly secret appointment book at State and the names of big donors to the Clinton Foundation5.

Don't get your hopes up. As it always does, with a Democrat-friendly news media and a national attention span well short of a gnat's, the Clinton strategy will work.

Deny. Dissemble. Delay. Dismiss.

It's not true. It's technically not true, and besides, you can't prove it. Sure, you can have our records — someday. OK, you got us, but it's such an old story that no one cares anymore. (What difference, at this point, does it make?)6

We're a few months away from electing to the highest executive office in the land someone manifestly unfit to hold any position of trust. We are on the verge of putting the entire executive branch of the United States government — the most powerful office the voters can confer — in the hands of someone whose only desire is the acquisition of personal wealth, but who wouldn't mind having an exalted title to make the grifting easier.

To head a massive regulatory state that holds in its hands the power to make or break not only businesses but entire industries, we are about to elect a woman whose entire approach to government can be accurately summed up in two words: Pay me7.

Hillary Clinton has been gone from the State Department since Feb. 1, 2013. Long before that day, numerous organizations8 were interested in finding out9 what she did there and just how tied-in the Clinton Foundation was to her official duties. The answer to that one turns out to be "inextricably."

What if John Kerry's State Department hadn't slow-walked10 every inquiry?

What if it hadn't finally thrown up its hands and said, in effect, "Alas, 20,000-plus Freedom of Information Act requests! It's just too hard!"? What if it hadn't so vigorously resisted the lawsuits, which now number more than 100?

What if all of the details we're learning now about this "old story" had come to light two years ago, or even one year ago?

Would we still be facing the prospect of putting the office that Barack Obama has re-created in his own image — a playground equipped with a pen and a phone11 to indulge his every unchecked, unbalanced whim12 — in the hands of a person who is unmistakably corrupt?

We can only hope that when Clinton scoops her profits out of the Oval Office safe four years from January, her other most prominent attribute — horrendous judgment in national13 and international14 affairs — hasn't cost the country too dearly.


References cited in this article :
1: http://dailysignal.com/2015/03/13/hillarys-career-rose-law-firm-bellwether-moder...
2: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
3: https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james...
4: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/emails-reveal-how-foundation-donors-got-...
5: https://www.clintonfoundation.org/
6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpQ6X4ojHws
7: http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/292441-pay-for-play-...
8: http://www.bigstory.ap.org/article/82df550e1ec646098b434f7d5771f625/many-donors-...
9: http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/category/clintons/
10: https://jonathanturley.org/2016/08/25/the-farce-that-is-foia-the-state-departmen...
11: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/01/14/obama-on-executive-actions-ive-got-a-p...
12: http://moneymorning.com/2016/01/06/president-obama-is-the-most-controversial-exe...
13: http://nlpc.org/stories/2015/03/18/heath-care-task-force-showed-secrecy-nothing-...
14: http://nationalinterest.org/feature/hillarys-huge-libya-disaster-16600

118barney67
Aug. 27, 2016, 4:02 pm

Neither is fit for office, so the people who voted for Clinton and Trump in the primaries need to explain their decision.

119davidgn
Bearbeitet: Sept. 6, 2016, 12:16 am

Interesting.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/09/05/hillary_clinton_starts_speech_...
Hillary Clinton Starts Speech With Massive Coughing Fit: "Every Time I Think About Trump I Get Allergic"

120proximity1
Bearbeitet: Sept. 6, 2016, 2:42 am

"Boy! We have sixty-three days to go."

-- Hillary Clinton, barely able to speak through her coughing, in a cracking and strained voice, addressing a campaign rally in Cleveland, Ohio, (15: 20 ), Monday, September 5th, 2016.

The con-woman speaks.

Will it last? Will it work? Can I pull this thing off?

Just sixty-three more days--and I'm in! Only nine more weeks. If I can just hold out till then.

------------

ETA:

Look at what we've come to:

Even if You Believe the Left’s Excuses, Hillary Clinton Still Violated Criminal Law by David French writing in The National Review , 5 September 2016

"The Left's excuses"?

They're not "the Left's excuses," for the very simple reason that Hillary Clinton isn't part of any political "Left." She's to the right of everyone on the Left. She's to the right of Donald Trump on protecting U.S. manufacturing jobs.

Sycophants of the oligarchy are making excuses for Clinton's malfeasance and misfeasance, not Leftists.

No Leftists I know of are making excuses for Hillary Clinton's official acts.

My browser crashed seven times in a row before I'd gotten half-way through reading the linked article.

121davidgn
Bearbeitet: Sept. 6, 2016, 3:01 am

Amen.

For a belated Labor Day message, this little rant from a guy named Steve Grumbine is worth watching. Particularly for those inside the "liberal bubble."
https://www.facebook.com/RealProgressive/videos/1657565414572882/

It's an angry video, which is a good reason to watch it.

122proximity1
Bearbeitet: Sept. 6, 2016, 8:00 am

>121 davidgn:

Indeed. A powerful video which the powerful can't honestly acknowledge or watch. It goes squarely against the Clintons' and the Obamas' signature bullshit : "I think America's already pretty great."1

---------------

1 : "Lucrative Book Deals Might Finance the Obamas' Post-White House Life" (New York Times )

------------

ETA :



To fully grasp the force of Steve's message (in the linked video of >121 davidgn: ), one has to reflect a moment on the equisite cynicism with which these faithless and false “Leftists,” --like the Clintons, the Kerrys, the Pelosies, Feinsteins, the Obamas--devise and execute their political operations. To suppose that Bill and Hillary are the defenders of the poor is to indulge in the kind of lethal naivety which people living on the street cannot afford.

The Clintons make the fund-raising rounds at the homes of multi-billionaires. Their own wealth of merely one-hundred-and-some-odd millions of dollars does not place them in the upper reaches of the net-worths represented at these gatherings.

The Clintons are political journeyman tradesmen doing their chores. These private donor gatherings are where their real earnest work is done. Everything else—all the public rallies, the public speeches, the signs, the t-shirts, the balloons, the lower-level piblic officials backing them on the speakers' platforms—all of that is strictly part of the show-biz of our phoney corruption-ridden system of crony-politics. The Clintons and their ultra-rich donors know and understand exactly what they are about, exactly how and why they are perpetuating a political fraud on the American general public and how this protects and preserves their personal wealth and privileges. They know beyond any need to pose questions about it why Bernie Sanders' campaign had to be stopped, his nomination prevented. They knew perfectly well, too, what this meant in direct living terms for the people whose lives are lived right on the thinnest margin of getting by or, below that, and well, well below that. There is not the slightest doubt that, in her deliberate lying and equivocating, in her using her lawyerly arts of finely-couched answers—
E.g. : I do not recall that conversation, I turned over all of the documents in my possession, I relied on my aides' advice, I was not instructed on this point, etc.2
--that she's quite consciously aware that this is consigning poor people to perpetual misery so that she and those she serves can go on enjoying their wealth and privileges safe from the dangers which exposing the full and factual truth would present.

No wonder these people are so taken with remotely-operated “pilotless” drone-warfare.

--------------------------

2 : EDITORIAL: Mrs. Clinton now plays dumb |
Las Vegas Review-Journal | September 6, 2016


123RickHarsch
Sept. 6, 2016, 7:53 am

Lucrative deals. I believe it was just after Clinton left the presidency that Hillary was given a 7 million dollar advance for her whatevers. That explains a great deal of what is wrong with literature in the US today. With that money, that publisher could have given a 15,000 dollar advance that any unknown literary writer would drool over to 466 separate people.
(My first advance was 3,000--and I was grateful; my second was 5,000 and I was ecstatic; my third was 6,000 and I was used to it but grateful nonetheless.)

124proximity1
Bearbeitet: Sept. 6, 2016, 8:52 am

Just what the hell is it, I ask you, Clinton-supporters, that must be on a computer-backed communication memory-device that would motivate someone to take to pounding it with a hammer to ensure that its former (and since erased) contents should never be subjected to any attempts to recover them?

Do we have any similar examples of Trump-owned hard-drives, thumb-drives, literally hammered into irrecoverable uselessness?

125RickHarsch
Sept. 6, 2016, 8:41 am

>124 proximity1: Don't know, but sometimes I read things here that make me wonder how some brains survive similar treatment.

126lriley
Sept. 6, 2016, 9:24 am

#123---it's unbelievable to me that people can read the almost always self serving dreck that politicians offer up in book form to the public.....and not just politicians but people like Limbaugh, Coulter etc.--but they do. I wonder what people expect to find in Henry Kissinger's memoirs? Mea culpa's for his sabotaging of the Paris peace talks? That wasn't going to happen. People talk about the evils of book burning but such as these mostly deserve to be thrown on a bonfire with people dancing around the edges with bottles of wine and beer and marshmallows on sticks.

127proximity1
Bearbeitet: Sept. 6, 2016, 9:51 am


OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR | The New York Times

Save the Republican Party: Vote for Clinton

By JAMES K. GLASSMAN
SEPTEMBER 6, 2016


"Every day, I run into Republican friends who can’t stomach a vote for Donald J. Trump but don’t know what to do. Vote for Hillary Clinton, who has trouble with the truth, wants to raise taxes and opposes free trade with Asia? Vote for the Libertarian candidate, Gary Johnson, an outlier who once ran a marijuana business and embraces isolationism? Or not vote at all, maintaining a certain purity but allowing others to decide the next president?

"I faced exactly these choices myself. I have voted for every Republican nominee for president since 1980, but I will not this time. Mr. Trump’s appalling temperament renders him unfit to be president, and his grotesque policy formulations mock the principles of liberty and respect for the individual that have been the foundation of the Republican Party since Abraham Lincoln.

"Even before Mr. Trump entered the race, I saw this coming. I worked to open a pathway for an independent — a solid third candidate who would attract the votes of the roughly two-thirds of Americans in the center. A serious contender would force the two major-party candidates to compete for votes in the middle, rather than appealing to the wings. I spent a year and a half on the project, but a month ago threw in the towel.

"The deck is stacked by the parties against anyone but a Republican or Democrat. An independent has to run an expensive gantlet to gather enough signatures to get on the ballot in all the states, suffers a severe disadvantage in fund-raising, and is effectively barred from the fall presidential debates by a commission loaded with party stalwarts.

"Through much trial and error, I learned that this is, whether we like it or not, an election between Mr. Trump and Mrs. Clinton, period. And that means that if you want to stop Mr. Trump, you have no choice but to vote for Mrs. Clinton. There’s no sitting this one out. ...

... "I’m voting for Mrs. Clinton because, despite her deficiencies, she will make a better president. But I have another reason. Defeating Mr. Trump soundly will help save the Republican Party. If he wins, a party built on freedom and internationalism will become entrenched as a party of authoritarianism and isolation, which means that within a few years it will atrophy and die."



Or, ironically enough, a much worse outcome is possible and Mr. Glassman doesn't even mention it. I'll mention it because I'm obliged to live with the consequences of it every day: the party might not atrophy and die in a few years. Instead, as the wicked tragedy of Clintonism has demonstrated in what used to be known as the Democratic party, it could be much, much worse: the party might go on for generations in such a state. And that would make one wish that it had atrophied and died after 'only' a few years.

So, reader-- you think you're a savvy observer of politics? Tell us, then, why the very same logic used here to advocate a loyal Republican's doing the hard but right thing and saving his party by voting for Hillary Clinton doesn't just as well apply to any loyal Democrat saving his party by voting for Trump? -- with the major difference being that, unlike Mr. Glassman's case, Democratic party voters have had thirty years to figure out this rather simple and obvious fact-set.

128RickHarsch
Sept. 6, 2016, 10:04 am

>126 lriley: I was invited to a book burning party (no political affiliation but attendees swinging leftwards). I brought my own first book as a joke and offering. When I ran a used book store I came to realize that the act of lighting books on fire is not in and of itself a problem in the least.

129lriley
Sept. 6, 2016, 10:52 am

#128--Pepe Carvalho--Manuel Vazquez Montalban's ex-communist, ex-CIA, ex-con private eye--often picks out books from his library that he doesn't like--or let's say he thinks the writer is on the pretentious side and breaks them up and tosses them into his fireplace to keep himself warm at night. I always found that kind of amusing.

130RickHarsch
Sept. 6, 2016, 10:54 am

How good is this Montalban?

131lriley
Sept. 6, 2016, 1:36 pm

He is pretty good. It's crime fiction mostly--Carvalho is a smart ass private eye with a prostitute for a girlfriend who along with another ex-con sometimes helps him out with his legwork. He's a lefty and a gourmet cook and there are sometimes some very involved Portugese or Spanish style recipes. My favorite novel of his though is Galindez---in which Carvalho does not appear. Galindez is a Basque exile from Franco's Spain who ends up in Trujillo's Dominican republic and from there goes into exile again in NYC. I think he is an actual (or drawn from an actual) historical figure. He writes something critical of Trujillo's dictatorship and is kidnapped and drugged by a team of FBI and NYC policemen and bundled back on a plane to Trujillo--then tortured and thrown to the sharks. Years later his daughter tries to track what happened to him and runs afoul of some of the same bad people that tortured and murdered her father. Anyway it was written some years before Vargas Llosa's Feast of the goat--and I look at those books as companion pieces.

The US Government by the way supported the Trujillo dictatorship to the hilt for a long time.

The best Carvalho IMO is 'The Buenos Aires Quintet' which revolves around his tracking down the child of one of the disappeared in the Argentine dirty war--if I remember correctly. I know his Southern Seas won a big literary award. They are interesting books mostly with Barcelona as his main locale.

132RickHarsch
Sept. 6, 2016, 2:20 pm

Shit, I am embarrassed--I read the BA quartet.

133proximity1
Bearbeitet: Sept. 7, 2016, 4:30 am

Ever since I was an elementary-school pupil sitting in what was then called 'civics' lessons, I've been fascinated by history and politics and everything that went with them. I was too young and inexperienced then to suspect that this might actually be a fairly common thing among children of that age—eight, nine, ten years old. Even then I did not feel as though I fit in very well with my school-mates and my interest in 'civics' did nothing to lessen that impression.

(Only much later have I come to recognise that such feelings of being misunderstood and as though one is an outsider are probably a much more common experience than some imagine them to be.)

Much experience since then has often reinforced my impression that I'm not very much like what I see in so many others. For example: I have often found myself puzzled by the capacity of so many to shrug off as rather unimportant certain political events which strike me as having clear indications of being lasting and often ominous in the significance of their implications for the future. Some events which so many others do not see as significant strike me as marking the whole country and people and setting dangerous precedents which shall reverberate for decades or generations and their marking power is perhaps due most of all to the very fact that the events are not generally understood to be marking, full of significance for the future.

So, in an early example, I found it odd that so many people could look upon the election of Richard Nixon with such nonchalance (my family elders taught this view in 1968 and, by 1972, I understood it all by myself). It was as though many people thought it of very transitory importance. Whatever happened, good or bad, would not have much, if any, lasting significance. By the time that Ronald Reagan was first elected, I'd come to the distinct impression that this was another marking occasion and that we were going to live with the very seriously dangeous consequences of it for a very long time—that in no way would things simply go on as usual after Reagan's term—and, as it proved, terms—were “finished.” We don't leave such things behind. They mark us and leave us changed for better or worse. In the cases of Nixon, Reagan and the Bushes, especially George W. Bush, it has been for the worse.

That is why, looking on at the amazing emotional reaction which Donald Trump's candidacy has provoked in so many who oppose him, I've been quite surprised and left to wonder: where have you been after all these years? Did you really suppose that the country could have a Nixon, a Reagan and a Bush—each of them for two terms as president—and simply go on as though it was really nothing out of the ordinary in the political life of the nation? In a system which has flashed “Tilt” for generations, how is it possible to look upon Trump as some sort of shocking departure? He's exactly what a long failing system should be expected to produce. And Hillary Clinton, so far from being the palliative, the 'remedy,' for a bad case of Trump, is instead just the counterpart to the dysfunction's phenomenon of Trump.

Just as Barack Obama's election was in no way any sanely-interpreted “course-correction,” the return of Bill and Hillary Clinton are part of our continuing political wreckage, not a pause from our pell-mell course.

The idea that we did or ever could “put Watergate behind us” by ignoring it, by refusing to take its lessons seriously, or that, similarly, we could shrug off Reagan's “Iran-contra” scandal or Bush's “Weapons of Mass-Destruction” fiasco, simply leave them all lying ignored and untreated “in our past,” is and was from the very first sheer delusional folly on a national scale --akin to sowing the earth with anti-personnel mines and then simply walking away, leaving them in place and forgetting about them.

134davidgn
Bearbeitet: Sept. 7, 2016, 4:48 am

>133 proximity1: Just what were the lessons of Watergate? Opinions would seem to differ.
(And please peruse the make-up of WWW's board: a veritable who's who of progressive media criticism and national security dissent in the US.)

135proximity1
Bearbeitet: Sept. 7, 2016, 5:06 am

>134 davidgn:

Unless you present it yourself --and in clear(er), more direct terms here-- I don't understand the point you are trying to make by linking the story at "Who What Why.org".

The implication seems to be that--are you ready for this?--terrible wrong-doing is going on, has gone on and is almost certain to continue to go on and that many people in very powerful places are involved in it.

I'm sorry but that is simply not breaking news--nor is there the slightest need to try and actually intimately connect various scandals (mentioned above) as all features of one grand and over-arching deep political scandal. Our system is one of corruption-ridden cronyism. Yes, that's true. That doesn't mean, for me, that Spiro Agnew was scheming with Ousama Bin Laden.

----------------------

@ WikipediA® page on Russ Baker, I'm inclined to see it this way --

"Rutten said that Baker once may have been a serious and talented journalist but became 'mesmerized by the idea of secrets and the Great Seduction. It causes you to lose your perspective and balance.'"

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Baker

136davidgn
Bearbeitet: Sept. 12, 2016, 12:01 am

>135 proximity1: I'm not sure where you got the last bit, but I won't bother asking.

My point, in a nutshell: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

To quote a paragraph from the second installment of the series I linked (which consists of a footnote-stripped version of Chapter 10 of Baker's Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty, the Powerful Forces That Put It in the White House, and What Their Influence Means for America

That Nixon could actually have been the victim of Watergate, and not the
perpetrator, will not sit well with many, especially those with a professional
stake in Nixon’s guilt. Yet three of the most thoroughly reported books on
Watergate from the past three decades have come to the same conclusion:
that Nixon and/or his top aides were indeed set up. Each of these books takes
a completely different approach, focuses on different aspects, and relies on
essentially different sets of facts and sources. These are 1984’s Secret Agenda: Watergate, Deep Throat, and the CIA,
by former Harper’s magazine Washington editor Jim Hougan; 1991’s Silent Coup: The Removal of a President, by Len Colodny and Robert Gettlin; and 2008’s The Strong Man: John Mitchell and the Secrets of Watergate, by
James Rosen.


Baker proceeds to reinforce this thesis -- quite convincingly, I would say.

As for that quote: plucked from a much less straightforward Columbia Journalism Review piece (which I highly recommend reading).

ETA:
If you've made up your mind, there's little I can do. It's been years since I read this stuff and I'm neither in the position nor in the mood to defend the argument here and now. I'll merely quote Dan Rather as interviewed at the launch party for Baker's book:


Dan Rather, meanwhile, whose controversial 60 Minutes report on George W. Bush’s military service record Mr. Baker’s book all but ratifies, was telling a group of people that even if Mr. Baker’s book got a bad review in The Washington Post, it was better than getting nothing.

“It’s a good book and he’s a nice guy,” Mr. Rather said, turning to Mr. Baker’s agent Andrew Stuart. “But it’s a proverbial third rail.”

Asked a moment later how a reporter like Mr. Baker should go about establishing his credibility among people who might dismiss him out of hand as no more reliable than a 9/11 truther, Mr. Rather said it was a difficult thing.

“Journalism is filled with a lot of decent-intending, wanting-to-do-the-right-thing people,” he said. “You just have to keep constantly asking a version of ‘please read the book.’... You know, fear runs rampant in journalism—I do not except myself in that criticism—and with a subject like this, the fear is if you touch it, you’re gonna get burned, and you may get burned to a crisp.”


And I'll note that the preceding pairs well with this Exiled piece: " A Brief History Of Media Cover-Ups & Self-Censorship: Who’s Afraid of Russ Baker’s Family Of Secrets .

See also the collection of published reviews I've added to the work: https://www.librarything.com/work/7463551

I'm done.

137proximity1
Bearbeitet: Sept. 7, 2016, 10:16 am

I really don't see any value or point in the "thesis" that Nixon was 'set up' and brought down via Watergate as the plan of others bent upon ruining Nixon.

There were many victims of the Watergate scandal. One was certainly Nixon himself. But we needn't find others involved as sinister manipulators using these events since Nixon himself outdid them--if they ever existed--in his part in his downfall.

Why, by the way, are we to suppose that, even if Watergate was that kind of affair, that

A. ) it succeeded since

B.) it ended in the downfall of its intended target, RMN?

Why not one of several others as the target(s)-- successfully or unsuccessfully ruined in the same episode?

This fails elementary-level detective work-skills. Please, leave me out of it. Thank you.
------------

ETA:

RE : ..."If you've made up your mind, there's little I can do. It's been years since I read this stuff and I'm neither in the position nor in the mood to defend the argument here and now."

Not really all that important then, is it?

Even if this stuff were all just as claimed, I'm left wondering how in the hell this amounts to any serious advance over the already currently-obvious and rather widely-held understanding that ours is a system which is morbidly corrupt, one which pursues cronyism for its own sake and is one in which there is such complete fraud and falsification of democratic practice that only a small minority remains with any trust in or respect for our political institutions.

The picture you're offering adds nothing of any qualitative importance to our already-accepted understanding of a rotten system.

What--seriously--what!?-- "tops" that, FFS?

It is certainly neither the case nor the 'problem' that I have already made up my mind. On the contrary, it's because my mind is open that I need real evidence and sound reasoning before being persuaded.

I cannot help wondering how these books, if they're really well-supported in evidence and reason, aren't long-standing sensations--as Woodward and Bernstein's reporting on the unfolding Watergate scandal quickly became. If they had a solid case, I'd have read about it--and their authors--because other reporters would have flocked to tell their story second-hand.

Instead, the books and the authors are languishing in an obscurity which no good case could endure.

Your synopsis raises more questions than it answers. Why did Prescott Bush want to see JFK assassinated? Their being political rivals is simply not enough. Nor are oversized egos or lust for power and money. If there's a straightforward motive, you neglected to mention it.

Again and again when I'm asked to consider some conspiracy theory, I find that the theorists haven't done even the simple basic work of explaining key motives in a convincing way. There were surely many varied ways to have ruined or eliminated JFK, Nixon or other conspiracy victims. Why were the observed means and measures used rather than other simpler means? Does the theory explain why in the case of Nixon, those plotting against him resorted to so wildly convoluted a trap as the Watergate complex break-in fiasco? You're aware, of course, that the security guard who discovered the break-in as it was in 'progress' very nearly missed the event, right? Had he gone to the toilet, turned in the opposite direction in his rounds, or failed to notice a tiny tell-tale indication that an office door had been opened and not securely reclosed and locked, the break-in would not have come to light either as it did or, perhaps, ever at all.

Why, too, did this plan to set up and ruin Nixon not manifest itself until the fall of 1972, on the eve of his bid for a second term in office? In the end, Nixon was forced out in April of 1974--five years and three months after his first election to the presidency. Why not much sooner? The set-up apparently relied on Nixon's role being discovered, reported and leading to his resignation or removal from office via impeachment and conviction--an extreme rarity. Why?

In many instances conspiracy theories fall apart as soon as someone starts asking some simple and obvious questions for which the theory has only very far-fetched and unconvincing answers.

My mind isn't made up--it's awaiting a credible story. I don't see anyone presenting that.

138davidgn
Bearbeitet: Sept. 11, 2016, 10:02 pm

Now Hillary "has pneumonia." In September.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/11/politics/hillary-clinton-health/

See the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyHr_gxSCCQ

Mentally, I keep going back to >50 davidgn:.

The numerous episodes of prolonged coughing are another tell. Swallowing disorders are very common in PD. They can lead to aspiration pneumonia, the most common cause of death in PD. But before that they lead to chronic difficulty swallowing saliva. It gets onto the vocal cords, leading to coughing in an attempt to clear them. The high frequency of these episodes strongly suggests a major swallowing disorder.


139davidgn
Sept. 11, 2016, 10:51 pm

>137 proximity1: No, this particular debate is not one of my priorities, but I did want to provide a bookmark for those who might be interested. I did dredge up a short summary/introduction by Baker of his argument, if you're willing to take a couple minutes to decide whether further investment of your time is warranted.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Watergate_and_Future_News_for_2009_1222.html

That said, re-reading Baker's book is not at the top of my to-do list just now. Ideally, I'd also have to do a bunch of other background reading on the subject, including the works Baker uses as sources. In the absence of prior knowledge of the events (apart from having watched the film All the President's Men, I'd have to say that on its own terms, Baker's argument was sufficiently convincing to me as to merit the status of a point of departure for any future reading I might do on the subject.

Meanwhile, your implication that good historical revisionism must, in the nature of things, displace and supplant culturally canonized narratives -- and that any studies that fail to do so must therefore be spurious -- strikes me as rather naive.

140krazy4katz
Sept. 11, 2016, 11:04 pm

>138 davidgn: I don't think her getting pneumonia makes it any more likely that she has Parkinson's. Certainly not "mid to late stage" as per your earlier post. I am not a doctor but I have sufficient experience knowing people with Parkinson's to say she would be much much weaker if she had reached that point. The entire thing about her health seems ridiculous to me. What family would support her run for the presidency if she had Parkinson's? Of course any president can develop an incurable illness. Ronald Reagan comes to mind in his last couple of years in office: falling asleep at meetings etc.

141davidgn
Bearbeitet: Sept. 12, 2016, 12:02 am

>140 krazy4katz: I'm not necessarily convinced of the diagnosis, but there's enough here that I have to wonder. And given that the woman hasn't given a proper press conference for the better part of a year, and has recently been keeling over for one reason or another practically every time she shows her face, I have to go on wondering.

As for the notion that those around her would stop her from pursuing her plans if she were unwell, I don't think that's necessarily the case. Hillary is the sort of person who's dangerous to contradict: why did nobody at the State Department dare to call her out on her email server while she was in office?

Finally, as far as her being weak: per emails released by Wikileaks, Hillary instructed her staff in 2012 to research the drug modafinil, presumably for her own use. In terms of promoting wakefulness and energy, it's a very good drug. I should know: I've been prescribed it myself.

142artturnerjr
Bearbeitet: Sept. 11, 2016, 11:26 pm

>138 davidgn:

Now Hillary "has pneumonia."

I trust p1 will not be sending her a "get well soon" card any time soon. :)

A reader comment (from "Ron" in California) from a NYT piece on her illness* sums things up pretty nicely, I think:

This didn't need to become a scandal incident, as I am sure it will over the next few weeks. When Ms. Clinton was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday, her campaign should have announced this, and stated that as a result Ms. Clinton's schedule would be a bit lighter than usual while she got some rest. Nobody except the alt-right would have cared.

Instead the Clinton campaign (i) says nothing about her minor / routine health concern on Friday and tries to continue with business as usual, (ii) claims that everything is totally fine and that Ms. Clinton is a picture of health despite prematurely exiting a 9/11 memorial service and requiring assistance to get into a waiting vehicle, (iii) goes into radio silence mode for over an hour before the campaign team realizes video of the wobbling is available the internet and (iv) finally -- FINALLY -- comes clean with a diagnosis announcement that never should have been news to begin with.

As a loyal democrat, this whole episode makes me so angry. Mr. Trump is perhaps the most defeatable presidential candidate in several generations, and Ms. Clinton is in danger of throwing this election away. Please stop doing stupid things!


* http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/12/us/politics/hillary-clinton-campaign-pneumonia...

143davidgn
Bearbeitet: Sept. 12, 2016, 12:22 am

The WaPo is worth reading on this as well. A masterpiece of tied-into-a-pretzel ambivalence. :-)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/11/hillary-clintons-healt...

144RickHarsch
Bearbeitet: Sept. 12, 2016, 12:43 am

This is sensible to me: http://crooksandliars.com/2016/09/clintons-doctor-says-heat-pneumonia-caused

Besides, wouldn't what's his name make a better president than Trump?

145margd
Sept. 12, 2016, 7:11 am

Interesting glimpse into who Hillary was (and is and will be?):

The First Time Hillary Clinton Was President
What her Wellesley classmates remember about Hillary’s first term—in 1968.
By Michael Kruse
August 26, 2016

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/hillary-clinton-2016-wellesley-pr...

146proximity1
Bearbeitet: Sept. 13, 2016, 4:38 am

>139 davidgn:

When I opened your posted link to read the text, I never got beyond paragraph one.

That's because no sooner does the page load--with OBNOXIOUS advertisements --than it re-loads with fresh advertising.

I get it: this BULLSHIT exists solely to dump ads on gullible suckers.

Your penchant for idiotic conspiracy theories is duly noted. Next time? Forget it. There won't be one!

Get a fucking life for pity's sake!

--------
ETA:

If I could go back and un-make that intemperate remake I would. Since I can't alter the record, I'm leaving this embarrassment to me on the record.

My excuse is a poor one: I find this stuff extremely frustrating as well as a waste of valuable time. But it's your life and your time to use as you see fit.

There are always at any given moment in every town and city in America--as well as beyond-- politically influential and important people who know things of genuine public interest which they must hope never come to light.

Usually nearly all of us would be better off as a society if those things were discovered and revealed--and revealed in a timely fashion rather than decades after these facts were actual and doing their harm.

But that fact doesn't alter another one: the frequent (now continuous) public speculation about what are still mainly hunches and about theories of conspiracies in high places, conspiracies which, despite their plausibility, remain at the stage of rumor and speculation for want of enough solid facts which could be the basis of a trial--that practice--and there are many examples of it--does real harm to us because it contributes significantly to creating and sustaining a climate of general public doubt, confusion and abiding suspicion far beyond anything which is either psychologically healthy or socially useful. It makes real conspiracies much less likely to find a receptive public when, at great risk and with difficulty, they people attempt to expose them. Thus, irresponsible conspiracy rumor-mongering helps create a more comfortable climate in which real conspiracies dwell by lowering people's general capacity to sort what is serious from the absurd and the trivial.

Whether you and others intend to or not, you're contributing to this by the trivialization of conspiracies, by prematurely promoting open speculation which, because clear and compelling evidence is lacking, serves to discount the value of efforts to expose well-founded evidence of corruption.

ALL POWERFUL POLITICAL FAMILIES HAVE AND KEEP SECRETS. ALL HAVE ENEMIES AND ARE IN THEIR TURN THE
ENEMIES OF OTHERS. This goes for the Bushes and Clintons today just as it did for the Rockefellers and the Lodges and the Adamses and the Kennedys and the Morgans, Astors, Hearsts and for hosts of others. Wealthy society is always a politically-connected moral cesspool.

Since that's ALWAYS the case, one could do investigative reporting on any such family and perhaps learn shocking things.

Still, we need to know why some particular cases stand out from the ordinary cases.

There is, frankly, nothing of surprising character in the fact--if true--that the Bushes disliked the Nixons and were interested in ways to foil Nixon while advancing--openly or "behind the scenes"--their own dynastic ambitions. That is the everyday affair of powerful wealthy people in politics.

Nor is the fact that our political order suffers from all this either new or even very interesting unless somewhere in it there are some real actionable facts to put before the public.

I do not see how anything you've related rises beyond what is common to our usual sordid political daily life.

We know--and have known--that the Bushes have used their power and money to further their political dynastic interests ans we know they're closely associated with Saudi royalty. (Craig Unger, House of Bush, House of Saud, (2004)

That's true of dozens of other important families--and some of these are important in their home nations' intelligence services, too.

I'm less impressed by Dan Rather's, Gore Vidal's, David Margolick's or Sydney Schanberg's endorsements than I am with some solid, new and interestingly useful fact. There ought to be a rather straightforward declarative statement like "Good evidence exists which shows that ... "X"... -- where "X" isn't just another example of what we can see going on all around us in politics.

And, despite my repeated requests for the gist of it, I get nothing from you but recommendations--with celebrity endorsements--that I go read some exposé. (See my follow up at >151 proximity1:)



147davidgn
Bearbeitet: Sept. 12, 2016, 11:08 am

>146 proximity1: Sounds like something's wrong with your browser. It opens for me with no graphics at all. And for the record, rawstory.com is actually a fairly mainstream online news site.
Here's a cached version.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090207091927/http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Waterga...

But you may have it as you prefer.

ETA: And if I am to be derided as an unhinged conspiracy theorist with no life, at least I have the comfort of knowing that I am in good company.

“One of the most important books of the past ten years.”—Gore Vidal

“A tour de force … Family of Secrets has made me rethink even those events I witnessed with my own eyes.”—Dan Rather

“Shocking in its disclosures, elegantly crafted, and faultlessly measured in its judgments, Family of Secrets is nothing less than a first historic portrait in full of the Bush dynasty and the era it shaped. From revelation to revelation, insight to insight—from the Kennedy assassination to Watergate to the oil and financial intrigues that lie behind today's headlines—this is a sweeping drama of money and power, unseen forces, and the emblematic triumph of a lineage that sowed national tragedy. Russ Baker’s Family of Secrets is sure to take its place as one of the most startling and influential works of American history and journalism.”—Roger Morris, former senior staff member, National Security Council, and author of Richard Milhous Nixon: The Rise of an American Politician and Partners in Power: The Clintons and Their America

“This is the book people will be mining for years to come” – David Margolick, Newsweek and Vanity Fair

“An investigative gem filled with juicy revelations” --Sydney Schanberg, Pulitzer Prize winner, New York Times

“Russ Baker’s work stands out for its fierce independence, fact-based reporting, and concern for what matters most to our democracy…A lot of us look to Russ to tell us what we didn’t know” – Bill Moyers

148margd
Sept. 12, 2016, 12:34 pm

The Many Scandals of Donald Trump: A Cheat Sheet
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/donald-trump-scandals/474726...

...The breadth of Trump’s controversies is truly yuge, ranging from allegations of mafia ties to unscrupulous business dealings, and from racial discrimination to alleged marital rape. The stretch over more than four decades, from the mid-1970s to the present day. To catalogue the full sweep of allegations would require thousands of words and lump together the trivial with the truly scandalous. Including business deals that have simply failed, without any hint of impropriety, would require thousands more. This is a snapshot of some of the most interesting and largest of those scandals...

149proximity1
Sept. 12, 2016, 12:37 pm

Ive edited and amended >146 proximity1:.

150davidgn
Sept. 12, 2016, 1:16 pm

>146 proximity1: Thank you for the retraction. My position is that I've forgotten so much since I read Baker's book that I'm not confident of my ability to give the material anything even approaching the treatment it deserves -- hence my preference to direct you to the source. If you want me to summarize Baker's argument for you fairly, you're going to have to give me time to review it. If you want me to defend it robustly in a surrogate capacity, you're going to have to give me time to review a lot of other material as well. I'm willing in principle to do so, even if grudgingly: I had other plans. For the next few days I'll be busy -- my relatively open summer schedule is starting to constrict on me -- but watch this space.

151proximity1
Bearbeitet: Sept. 13, 2016, 5:05 am

>150 davidgn:

No. I am definitely not expecting you to go to any such effort and I would urge you to never mind about it. It would be, at least in my opinion, a waste of your time especially if you're doing it just to satisfy me. The most likely result is that I won't find the results that new or interesting and I'll probably not be persuaded that the Bush family had some sinister part in JFK's assassination.

If I'd read some convincing account of how some of the Bushes had been involved, you can be sure that ten, twenty, thirty years after having read it, I'd remember the key points and could tell anyone interested in a sentence or two just why and how the Bushes were involved without having to go back and refresh my memory by re-reading. Even if the intricate details were complicated, the essential motives would not be hard to state briefly.

This is what astounds me about it. For a book supposedly so important, you don't recall such key things.


(WikipediA®)

"According to Baker, the first President Bush became an intelligence agent in his teenage years and was later at the center of a plot to assassinate Kennedy that included his father, Prescott Bush, Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson, CIA Director Allen Dulles, Cuban and Russian exiles and emigrants, and various Texas oilmen.


In one or two sentences, Why? --


He also names Bob Woodward of The Washington Post as an intelligence agent who conspired with John Dean to remove President Richard Nixon from office for opposing the oil depletion allowance."


Nixon opposed the oil-depletion-allowance!? Really? Why?

( See: http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/oil-subsidies-energy-timeline)



...

1950 President Harry S. Truman unsuccessfully prods Congress to end the depletion allowance.

1957 Asked about the depletion allowance, President Dwight Eisenhower replies, "I am not prepared to say it is evil because, while we do find, I assume, that a number of rich men take advantage of it unfairly, there must certainly be an incentive in this country if we are going to continue the exploration for gas and oil that is so important to our economy."

1960 Presidential candidates John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon debate the depletion allowance. Kennedy says he's willing to review and close the "loophole." Nixon counters, "I favor the present depletion allowance. I favor it not because I want to make a lot of oilmen rich, but because I want to make America rich."

1969 Congress cuts the depletion allowance deduction from 27.5 to 23 percent, over the objections of the president of Gulf Oil, who calls it "a cornerstone, a major part of the foundation on which the industry has built its house. To dismantle it in whole or in part could very well jeopardize that whole structure and, to a serious degree, the economy dependent upon it." President Nixon says the tax break is "in the national interest" because Mideast oil supplies could be cut off "in the event of a world conflict."


PLEASE note by the way--

if you must pursue this (because, after posting this, I'm dropping the matter) please do it in a different thread.

This is not the place to discuss how the Bushes planned and organized JFK's assassination or cooked up the Watergate scandal to get Nixon out --five years into his two-term tenure as president because he supposedly opposed the oil-depletion-allowance (ODA)--which, I gather, both House and Senate committees dealing with energy and tax policies also must have somehow joined Nixon in opposing. Oddly enough, those committees' members' careers were not ruined by the scandal--which is odd because, if the ODA were to be tampered with, that would first require their cooperation ( i.e. in opposing it) before Nixon at his desk with a pen could do anything about it. So history should record that, among other consequences of Nixon's departure, something regarding the ODA which was thought bound to happen didn't happen (or the converse).

So what happened after Nixon was effectively forced out of office? His vice-president, Gerald Ford, succeeded him. Surely that must have been the secret conspiracy's objective.


1975 Ford almost vetoes but then signs a tax bill that repeals the depletion allowance for large companies. It remains in place for smaller, independent drillers.




152barney67
Sept. 16, 2016, 3:16 pm

153krazy4katz
Sept. 16, 2016, 11:10 pm

>152 barney67: And why does that matter?

154krazy4katz
Sept. 19, 2016, 9:10 pm

>152 barney67: No good answer, I guess.

155proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 3, 2016, 9:48 am



Michael Moore: Trump Can Win, a "Human Molotov Cocktail" To Throw At The Political System

| Posted By Ian Schwartz | On Date October 2, 2016 | (RealClearPolitics.com (VIDEO Interview) )




... ...

... MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, I-- which I don't want him to win. Let’s just make that clear. I-- I've been trying to say for months here, I live in Michigan. And, and across the Midwest, across the Rust Belt, I understand why a lot of people are angry. And they see Donald Trump as their human Molotov cocktail that they get to go into the voting booth on November 8th and throw him into a political system that has made their lives miserable.

And, and so I think, at the convention, I was worried, Democrats, the Clinton campaign, were all doing an end zone dance when they were only on the 50 yard line. And, and the celebrating after the debate-- everybody needs to have their game face on here and realize that Trump can win. He can pull this off. And, and everybody has to, has to be full force here. Otherwise, it’s, it has a chance of happening...

CHUCK TODD: Do you think every time a newspaper editorial comes out and denounces Trump, and every time a former cabinet secretary in a Bush administration comes out and denounces Trump, you think that has a-- Do you think that backfires? You think it oddly reinforces Trump's message?

MICHAEL MOORE: I think a lot of people who have seen their livelihood vaporized, who are no longer part of the middle class, who are struggling to survive, pay no attention anymore to what the media or the people in power-- they've lost all credibility, I think, with a lot, with a lot of people. I mean just take what's happened from how we got into the Iraq War.

Where was the media on that before the war? Where was The New York Times, for instance? Putting Judith Miller's stories concocting weapons of mass destruction on the front page of their paper. Where was the media while, while Wall Street was, was creating this crisis that was about to happen?

I mean so people don't trust the media. They don't listen to it, and for good reason, because the, the media has let them down. The, the rich and the powerful have let them down. They used to believe in that. They used to vote for the rich and powerful. And a lot of them aren't going to do that this time. And they, for some strange reason, see Donald Trump as their, as their means to get back at, at, at this system...

I don't think people do trust the Democrats. How else could a socialist win 22 states? I mean in my state of Michigan, Bernie Sanders won. If, if, if Hillary Clinton and the Democrats had a difficult time with him, that should have been the red flag to everybody that there is a, a, a mood out there where people are upset at the Democrats and the Republicans.

What has to happen here, though, like with the Brexit vote in England, is that people, where I'm from, have to understand that, while they may not like Hillary that much or she may be a bitter pill to swallow or whatever, you better, you better take your medicine. Because the, the opposite is going to be much, much worse.




Think again, Michael :



BLUE CIVIL WAR |
Despite Donald Trump, Many Bernie Sanders Supporters Won’t Forgive Hillary Clinton
| The Sanders campaign exposed long-simmering discord in the Democratic Party coalition, and the fracture, now exposed and widened, can’t be easily fixed or even papered over. by Michael Tracey
| 10.02.16 6:15 AM ET




...
"During the Obama-Clinton saga, the overriding priority for this group was to remove Republicans from office after eight long, dreadful years of George W. Bush. Obama, buoyed by a surge in youth support, was seen (rightly or wrongly) as a break from Democratic Party orthodoxies — namely staid Clintonism.

"But the progressive left now has different imperatives. It’s not enough to warn about the dangers of evil Republicans gaining power. For them, distressing maladies have persisted and in some cases worsened under an outwardly liberal Democratic president, so something new is needed. Whatever else Hillary might be, “new” she is not.

"Their resistance to falling in line may also have to do with the younger generation’s reliance on social media, which fosters a kind of ingrained skepticism. Whereas passively consuming cable news (an increasingly geriatric activity) encourages adoption of whatever the chorus of anti-Trump pundits are fulminating about on a given day, younger people curate information much more assiduously than their elders — filtering out the superfluous hysterics and nonsense. Indeed, an entire new media ecosystem developed around the Sanders campaign, feeding followers constant updates for months upon months about the perceived corruption of Hillary. So it’s not surprising that people who’ve been immersed in this world might resist demands to suck it up and capitulate to party hacks whom they view not as uneasy allies, but enemies.

"For many of this Sanders cohort, the experience of attending the Democratic convention in July was profoundly souring. “What bothered me most about it was that these were people who spent over a year registering voters for the party, and we were so disrespected,” Tascha van Auken, a Sanders delegate from New York, told me. She founded a volunteer group called Team Bernie NY in the summer of 2015, working tirelessly to sign up new Democrats in advance of the state’s closed primary the following April. Van Auken described a series of slights, affronts, coordinated stifling attempts, and even outright attacks on Sanders delegates at the convention, which in aggregate caused her to wonder whether the Democratic Party itself was fundamentally broken, and ever worth attempting to work within. The feeling hasn’t gone away.

" “I think what was ultimately surprising to me about my experience was not the ridiculous spectacle or even the excessive patriotism,” she said of the convention. “But that Democrats clearly had no interest in welcoming this new progressive component into their party.”

"Van Auken and others identified as a prime culprit for their continuing disaffection the convention “whips” deployed to quell protest activity among the various delegations. Numerous members of the New York Sanders contingent characterized the behavior of these whips — who sported bright yellow visibility jackets — as ranging from moderately officious to aggressively hostile. One particular whip would snap ostentatious smartphone photos of Sanders supporters who were insufficiently compliant.

" “Hillary whips were checking our credentials over and over again and accusing us of not being delegates — they made some delegates cry,” recounted Emmanuel Ackaouy, another New York delegate, who previously regarded himself as a stalwart Democrat but has since felt compelled to reevaluate. “It was really confrontational and uncomfortable,” he said. “It felt borderline fascist.”

"These are the very types of grassroots progressive activists who might have trekked to swing states and organized for the Democratic nominee; instead, they are largely sitting the presidential contest out, focusing on local races, if they remain involved at all.

"Then there’s another aspect to all this, which many are reluctant to acknowledge. Some of the left-wing Sanders faithful — granted, likely a minority, but a recognizable minority nevertheless —believe a Trump presidency would ultimately wreak less destruction than a Clinton one. Alexis Edelstein, a former Sanders delegate from Playa del Rey, California who was active in facilitating much of the organized dissent at the convention — including a “occupation” of the media tent on July 28 — takes this position.

" “I’m hoping that Hillary doesn’t win,” Edelstein, an immigrant from Argentina, told me. “Trump’s an asshole but I feel like he’s full of hot air. HRC’s calculating, she’s conniving. Trump I think is just — he’s got a huge head. He probably bit off more than he can chew.”

"The left-wing case for Trump isn’t necessarily a cogent or well-reasoned one, but it shouldn’t be surprising that some would gravitate to it given the weakness of the current left-wing case for Clinton, who’s made it abundantly clear that she is far more comfortable crafting a message aimed at wayward Republicans and moderate conservatives than one aimed at populist-oriented progressives.

"Another Sanders delegate from California, Michael Fortes, recalled a jarring moment at the convention that bears on this dynamic. At the moment Hillary was formally nominated, he said, a number of delegates could be heard exclaiming, “Hello President Trump!” It was more an expression of defeatism than any celebration of Trump. But the sentiment that we’d be better off if Clinton loses does exist, and there’s no sense ignoring it.

" “To a certain degree, Trump’s overtures to the left are working,” Fortes said.

"Edelstein added that he and fellow Sanders delegates attempted to convince their compatriots of this view, encountering some resistance and some receptivity. Their ultimate hope in wishing for a Clinton defeat is that it will embolden the organized left-wing to seize power in 2020.

" “If Hillary wins in November, I feel she will do whatever she can to squash the progressive movement,” he said. “That movement dies.” "


--------

"outwardly liberal"? Not even "outwardly." Obama and the Clintons are anything but "liberal"--inwardly, outwardly and any other way.

156artturnerjr
Okt. 3, 2016, 9:44 am

>155 proximity1:

Thanks for sharing those - they're both interesting pieces.

A lot of my co-workers are folks in their twenties and thirties. The majority of them that voted in the primaries (unsurprisingly) voted for Sen. Sanders, and that second piece echoes many of the sentiments I have heard from them. Haven't heard any of them say they are planning on voting for Trump, though (not that they would necessarily share that with me, as I am almost as vocally anti-Trump IRL as I am on these boards).

157proximity1
Okt. 3, 2016, 10:28 am

>156 artturnerjr:

you're welcome.

158margd
Okt. 4, 2016, 10:32 am

Trump's inferring that PTSD afflicts people who are not strong offended me: upon return from WW2, my dad was not the same according to his sister. Initially, there were incidents such as awaking in tent on fishing trip with his fingers around his dad's throat. Alcohol was an issue throughout his life. Two days before he died a whisker short of 90 hallucinations had him dodging explosives. Still, he made a life for himself and his family. Donald Trump? He had heel spurs and $14 million loan as a young man.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/trump-ptsd-joe-biden-229084

159proximity1
Okt. 4, 2016, 10:58 am


>158 margd:

I agree with your objection. I also wonder what in the world coud have led Trump to suppose that saying this would boost his voter-appeal.

On the other hand, no matter what Trump thinks or says about PTSD, you're voting for Clinton, right? And you've often voted w/out wondering what the candidates thought about it, right?

161prosfilaes
Bearbeitet: Okt. 4, 2016, 5:03 pm

>160 2wonderY: It seems a little overblown. It's more an example of a poor choice of words that could be made by any politician instead of Trump's trademarked horrible. It clearly wasn't something like the attack on McCain, where the point was to belittle veterans with PTSD.

162margd
Bearbeitet: Okt. 5, 2016, 2:10 am

The thing is--this guy can't even empathize without judging people, e.g., weak, fat, lyin', housekeeper, rapist, crooked, little, 10 (or not), loser. I forgive poor choice of words, but this is way of life for The Donald, from a glass house (ETA--make that crystal palace!) judging virtually everybody else as wanting!

163RickHarsch
Okt. 4, 2016, 5:53 pm

Something so in character can hardly be overblown merely by being yet another story of such a man's degeneracy.

164proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 5, 2016, 4:30 am

>162 margd:


The thing is--this guy can't even empathize without judging people, e.g., weak, fat, lyin', housekeeper, rapist, crooked, little, 10 (or not), loser. I forgive poor choice of words, but this is way of life for The Donald, from a glass house judging virtually everybody else as wanting!


Exactly : Trump is lucky (and unlucky) rich materially (while, morally, impoverished), arrogant, conceited (while deeply insecure inwardly,) loath to admit any weakness, error or fault of his own though quick to disparage the same in others, a self-promoting hypocrite and a liar--in short, a rather more candid example in an unusually exaggerated form of what is otherwise typical of the Republican party's candidates.

But your psychic defenses seem to be working overtime here in order to prepare your conscience for the act of voting for Clinton--whose moral failings give the Republicans a run for their money.

■ "lyin'," -- a judgement which Clinton and her supporters show no hesitation in making concerning Trump; yet, we have it from the F.B.I.'s investigation into her use of a private e-mail system that Hillary Clinton had, to put it mildly, not been truthful in her public explanations of its purposes and uses. There are too many other examples to list here.

■ "crooked," -- a judgement which Clinton and her supporters show no hesitation in making concerning Trump by the record of his long and checkered business dealings; yet, though she assures us that they are entirely benign in content and import, Clinton stoutly refuses to divulge the texts of speeches for which she received millions in honoraria from banking and investments executives --the epitome of people who never grant a "quid" unless they were confident of its "pro quo" payoff--either before, during or in good time afterward. Very obviously she has taken her insider status with the connections which go with it and peddled these like merchandise in a private-buyers' club. It requires something in prodigious cynicism on the part of Clinton and, gullibility, on the part of her fans, to actually pretend that these speaking fees were other than well-understood on both the payers' and the payee's parts to be what could be candidly referred to by each side as "maintenance fees for services-to-be-rendered."

■ "loser," -- a label which holds great shame for one as insecure as Trump. He likes to throw it around against others. Hence, Clinton and her fan-clubs are, similarly, counting the days left before they they can tag Trump as a loser, a prospect they clearly relish. Never mind that there could be no elections without them.

■ "housekeeper" -- Yes, now there's a terrible epithet. Certainly it's a sign of failure within the 0.01% that one or one's children should have to perform non-recreational, involuntary housekeeping. Trump, we may assume, has never done any. Clinton, we may assume, has never done any since she entered the Arkansas governor's mansion--and certainly shall never have to do so again--while I've known people, men and women, who did housekeeping work right up to their elderly dying day.

■ "weak" --a judgement which Clinton and her supporters show no hesitation in making concerning Trump's credentials for measuring up to the responsibilities and demands of the office for which he's a candidate; but, of course, we are _all_ "weak" in _some_ respects and it's the very rare person who is weak in all respects. But, even as Clinton and her supporters make hay of Trump's weaknesses, let's all recoil in more-or-less sincere and uncalculated horror at the idea of criticizing someone as weak.

■ "rapist" -- ? If 'the shoe fits,' what are we to say--'judge not, lest ye be judged'? I do believe we judge people on this charge--as difficult and as complicated as the circumstances can be. It's a serious charge and one which is known to be abusively levelled.

■ "fat," "little," -- not to mention "deplorable, " "racist, " "bigot, " "sexist" or "misogynist." Obviously this is an election campaign and people are given to exaggerate. Everyone knows there are no fat or little people in America.

I really fail to see how it makes sense to expect to ever remake the Republican party into what it has never been: a home and a force for the defense of the ordinary man' s and woman's needs and interests --politically, socially and economically speaking.

That ambition is not only conceivable for Democrats, it's the ambition and role which the party once actually used to deliberately strive to live up to. Since the losses to Ronald Reagan, professional Democratic party leaders and aspiring office-holders allowed themselves to be spooked by the fear that they might pass the best years of their political lives on the margins, that, to win office, they had to join Republicans in a kind of race, comparatively to what had been the more recent case, to the moral depths of political practice, or the party would be consigned to a loser's place permanently.

And so, some, having lost their nerve to defend principles, joined newly-organized activists of the Democratic Leadership Council, who simply had no principles to abandon, and together they came to emulate many of their so-called opposition party's tactics, methods and disreputable ambitions. In short, the Republican party's brief winning-streak, wrongly (dishonestly) attributed mainly to their pandering to the wealthy's interests and to all manner of other privileged organized interests, unnerved some Democrats and emboldened others, leading them, for decades, to abandon the traditional role defending, however inconsistently and inadequately, the poor and the middle class.

Whatever they started out in politics to be and to achieve, the Clintons became and remain today the epitome of this abandonment of principle.

I don't see how voting for them again--even against someone like Trump--holds any promise of helping the party to recover what it has, to our great general loss, abandoned. Instead, electing Clinton confirms once more--exactly as the election of Obama did--the complete monopoly of the monied-class without any serious need to consider other competing interests.

You're expecting us to stay on what is ever more obviously a disaster course with nothing but a false sense of security based in denial to show for it.

In electing Trump, Democrats could signal, in the only way available to them in this corrupt system, a rejection of what is a now-thoroughly-practiced and entrenched political con-game which makes suckers out of them.

This denies voters a cheap and phony self-satisfaction of virtue-signalling their superiority to Trump and many of his views. It's a counter-intuitive step, something apparently too subtle for most of the electorate to understand.

So, well-intentioned people who have a very good opinion of themselves plan to vote for the crooked, lying, sell-out who better comforts their political self-delusions.

165krazy4katz
Bearbeitet: Okt. 5, 2016, 6:22 pm

>164 proximity1: "But your psychic defenses seem to be working overtime here in order to prepare your conscience for the act of voting for Clinton--whose moral failings give the Republicans a run for their money"

So that's what is so frustrating. What you are saying about HRC is not backed up by facts, yet the press is just as harsh on her as they are on Trump. Many of us who are voting for Hillary (and I know I don't speak for all of us) actually like her. Yes, she is more conservative than I would prefer but those people will not get elected in today's climate. We know this. Just look at the ideological make up of Congress, which should mirror the population better and it is obvious. Yes she gave speeches. What is the big deal? Not all of Wall Street is the enemy. Who knows what she told them? No one knows and it is a waste of time to speculate.

ETA: Also there is never any mention of the good things she has done. And if there is, the response is always , well now that she's rich she's in Wall Street's pockets. All the great things the Clinton Foundation has done can't be erased. She is not perfect, but when was that ever true of someone elected to office?

166proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 6, 2016, 4:30 am

>165 krazy4katz: :

"Who knows what she told them? No one knows and it is a waste of time to speculate."

You couldn't be more wrong about that.

First and most obviously, Clinton knows and the people in her audience know.

And we know that it stands to reason that, if she thought it could possibly help her win the election, she'd have told us all about it before anyone ever even had a chance to ask her. We know that those who paid these whopping fees wouldn't begrudge her divulging the texts if this were to be neither to her or their detriment.

Thus, it's obvious that, if she's refusing to tell us what she received millions in fees for telling Wall Street bankers then it must be because she has concluded that telling us this would not help her campaign! -- not only that, but, what she told these banking elite poses such a threat to her electoral designs should it become known before election day, that, in her calculations, she's better off stone-walling the questions, better off leaving us to imagine the worst than she'd be if she just told us the truth.

And that, obviously, is because she knows that refusing to divulge the texts is hurting her image in the one key respect she most needs to remedy: the wide and deep distrust in which the public regard her.

She figures that rather than reveal these texts, she's better off hiding them from us.

I despise people who are either so fucking stupid or so fucking blind that they cannot recognise what these facts, taken together, tell us--even after it has been patiently explained to them.

-------

"Yes, she is more conservative than I would prefer but those people will not get elected in today's climate. We know this. Just look at the ideological make up of Congress,"...

---- Rather, what we "know" is that those who will always settle for whatever they're offered will invite others to test just how little can suffice.

It's people like you who're to 'thank' for what you pretend is the political "climate."

167krazy4katz
Bearbeitet: Okt. 6, 2016, 8:11 pm

>166 proximity1: I think your definition of facts may be different than mine, but that's OK. Don't get yourself so worked up over it. ;-)

168RickHarsch
Okt. 6, 2016, 8:59 pm

>167 krazy4katz: You are an admirable model of restraint.

169krazy4katz
Okt. 6, 2016, 9:06 pm

Yoga. ;-)

170proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 7, 2016, 12:29 pm


Eight years ago at this same time I wrote in no uncertain terms that Obama's tenure in office--for his election was virtually certain in my view--would leave young people, those who supported him and their younger peers following them, bitterly disappointed, jaded and politically alienated.

It has.



(The Atlantic magazine) For Young Voters, 'Hope and Change' Is Dead by Molly Ball | October 6, 2016

| A group of 20-something voters illustrates young people’s consternation with their political choices this year. |



•••

"Some liberal Millennials have so internalized Sanders' onetime critique of Clinton's character—that she’s just another cog in a corrupt machine—that they are implacably opposed to her. That was the case for one focus-group participant, Amanda, a 27-year-old human-resources worker who's also a single mother enrolled in a holistic-health certificate program. Amanda's description of Clinton: "Bitch, liar, false." She's planning to vote for Green Party nominee Jill Stein.

Amanda's attitudes were partly driven by disillusion with Obama, whom she voted for. "I'm just not pumped about what he did while he was in office," she said. "I feel like a lot of stuff crumbled while he's been in there." Her excitement about Obamacare, she said, has given way to dismay at her rising health-insurance premiums and deductibles."




----------------------------------


He’ll likely lose - but Trump is the final warning to elites | John Ibbitson | The Globe and Mail | Published October 7, 2016 |




Donald Trump will probably lose the election. But he is a final warning. Unless political elites of both the left and the right become more humble, unless they once again ask themselves how their agendas will play in Peoria, the next rough beast might slouch over the corpse of the republic.

“Will it play in Peoria?” goes back to the days of vaudeville. The city of 115,000 in central Illinois was once considered the ultimate focus group, the embodiment of Middle America, the place to test a joke or a soda or a social policy to learn what white folks without a fancy degree thought of it. Back in the day, you knew better than to defy the settled judgment of this ultimate test market. You went as far as Peoria would let you, and no further.

But we grew impatient. You have to fight Jim Crow, whatever Peoria thinks.




-----------------------



( The Guardian ) Some of Clinton's pledges sound great. Until you remember who's president | Thomas Frank |
The Democrats promise to take on a system rigged against middle America. So why the hell has Barack Obama done almost nothing about that for eight years? |




The puzzle that is currently frustrating the pundit minds of America is this: why is Hillary Clinton not simply clobbering Donald Trump? How is this ranting, seething buffoon still competitive with her? Trump has now stumbled through a series of the kind of blunders that break ordinary political campaigns – the sort of deadly hypocrisies that always kill the demagogue in old movies – and yet this particular demagogue keeps on trucking. Why?

Let us answer that burning pundit question of today by jumping to what will undoubtedly be the next great object of pundit ardor: the legacy of President Barack Obama. Two months from now, when all the TV wise men are playing historian and giving their estimation on where Obama ranks in the pantheon of the greats, they will probably neglect to mention that his legacy helped to determine Hillary’s fortunes in this election cycle. As a beloved figure among Democrats, for example, Obama was instrumental in securing the nomination for her. As a president who has accomplished little since 2011, however, Obama has pretty much undermined Clinton’s ability to sell us on another centrist Democratic presidency. His legacy has diluted her promise.

The reform impulse just keeps short-circuiting every time the Democrats try to switch it on

Let me put this slightly differently. Hillary Clinton has lots of good policy ideas. She promises many fine things. That these things do not attract more voters to her side is (as many have noted) partially due to her wonkish way of presenting them. But it is even more because of the glaring contradiction between the nice things she says she will do and the failure of Obama to advance the ball very far on those same issues.



---------------------------




( The Daily Beast ) HEADS IN SAND | Can Someone Please Make the Candidates Talk About Social Security? | A recent trustees’ report says we have 18 years until it goes broke. We must know what Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump propose to do about it. | Bob Kerrey | 10.07.16 7:00 AM ET |



Few if any candidates for federal office will tell you that as a consequence of current federal law, young Americans are being screwed in two life-changing ways.
First, under current law, every Social Security beneficiary under the age of 48 will have their promised benefits cut by a third. And second, every young person who works is contributing between $10,000 and $20,000 to the health care and retirement of those lucky Americans who are already drawing benefits under federal law.

In some ways the second screwing is worse than the first. Young workers do not have the defined benefit retirement programs commonly enjoyed by their grandparents, and if they do have health care through their jobs, their annual deductibles are probably greater than what their grandparents paid to have children and attend college.

Perhaps the media will notice that Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump have something very important in common: Both are on Social Security, or at least they are eligible for the old age benefit guaranteed by Social Security.

Clinton is pushing 70. Trump just passed it. Both have substantial amounts of non-employment income to supplement their Social Security benefits. Neither have any personal concern about the Social Security trustees’ report warning that the so-called trust fund for the Old Age and Survivors program will be depleted in 18 years.


171proximity1
Okt. 7, 2016, 5:50 am


During Bill Clinton's tenure as president, large campaign contributions could open the door for the donors to stay as overnight guests at the White House. (During this time, some Secret Service personnel referred jokingly to the president's plane as "Air Fuck One.")

That has always been what both of the Clintons regarded as business as usual and they seriously didn't understand why there could be something wrong with it.

Nothing has changed.


(Washington Examiner)
New emails show intersection of Clinton Foundation, State Dept., paid speeches

By SARAH WESTWOOD (@SARAHCWESTWOOD) • 10/6/16 12:23 AM.


172jjwilson61
Okt. 7, 2016, 9:55 am

>170 proximity1: The Democrats promise to take on a system rigged against middle America. So why the hell has Barack Obama done almost nothing about that for eight years? |

Why? Because he had to choose his fights? In his first couple of years when he had a Democratic congress he got massive stimulus programs and Obamacare through which helped millions of middle and lower class Americans. Unfortunately the backlash of Obamacare (which was largely whipped up by Republicans since it hadn't even taken effect yet) meant that he was dealing with a hostile Congress for rest of his terms. The Republicans clamped the lid on spending causing the recession to last much longer than it needed to and Obama had to work on things he could do without Congress, climate change and immigration reform.

So if you want someone to blame, blame the Republican majority in Congress and the racists who overreacted to a black president who actually tried to accomplish something.

173proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 7, 2016, 12:07 pm

>172 jjwilson61:

Try this, from the Thomas Frank article, linked above,



"It doesn’t really help matters to claim, as the most ardent Obama defenders do, that the president was powerless before Congress, and that it was therefore impossible for Obama to do anything differently than he did during his eight years. Such fanciful talk may help us to feel better about the current occupant of the Oval, but it also negates his would-be successor’s promises more effectively than any lesser argument you might make against them. It transforms a vote for Hillary from mildly distasteful to almost totally futile.

The immediate problem for Democrats this year is simple, really: it is hard to criticize power when your own leader is the most powerful person in the land.

The larger problem facing them is the terminal irrelevance of their great, overarching campaign theme. Remember the “man from Hope”? “Hope is on the way”? “Keep hope alive”? Well, this year “hope” is most assuredly dead1. Thanks to Obama’s flagrant hope-dealing in the dark days of 2008 – followed up by his failure to reverse the disintegration of the middle class – this favorite Democratic cliché has finally become just that: an empty phrase. Today as the Democrats go into battle against Trump, they find that their rallying cry has lost its magic. Hillary is discovering how difficult it is to win an election without hope.



1 : http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/hope-and-change-is-dead/5031...

174jjwilson61
Okt. 7, 2016, 12:15 pm

>173 proximity1: Well, yes, I do think that a Hillary presidency without Congress will be a continuation of the current gridlock. But that's still better than what would happen with Trump in charge with a Republican congress. There's always the next election...

175proximity1
Okt. 7, 2016, 12:35 pm

>174 jjwilson61:

"There's always the next election..."

Not for the Clintons--as candidates, thank goodness, no, there isn't. After this one, it's back to tawdry influence-peddling for them.

176RickHarsch
Okt. 7, 2016, 12:46 pm

I can see almost all of Proximity1's arguments, and in fact agree quite strongly with them, EXCEPT as arguments for voting for Trump. His arguments apply to all elections I've witnessed as an adult; the only change I have seen is a drift rightward in general, a triumph of the oligarchy that has had to seek ways to dismantle profit-eating institutions such as welfare and unionization, and prevent health care and affordable housing...

177jjwilson61
Okt. 7, 2016, 2:36 pm

>175 proximity1: I was referring to the Congressional and Senatorial elections. The only hope for Progressives is to turn the house blue, which will eventually happen due to demographics but it may be a long frustrating wait.

178krazy4katz
Bearbeitet: Okt. 7, 2016, 3:39 pm

>172 jjwilson61: >177 jjwilson61: YES. What I have been trying to say all along. Thank you. We need to work on Congress while making sure the right people become president just in case there happens to be a suitable Congress to work with.

179theoria
Okt. 7, 2016, 5:24 pm

Mr Trump's dating advice to men: "when you’re a star, they let you do it.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-recorded-having-extremely-lewd-con...

180RickHarsch
Okt. 7, 2016, 5:55 pm

Strangely, he starts by talking about being rebuffed, and soon he's talking about how you can do anything you want to a woman. There are plenty of swine about, but now many that deluded.

181artturnerjr
Okt. 7, 2016, 8:59 pm

>165 krazy4katz:

Yes she gave speeches. What is the big deal? Not all of Wall Street is the enemy. Who knows what she told them?

We do, now. Some of what she told them, at least:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/wikileaks-appears-to-have-sn...

182krazy4katz
Okt. 7, 2016, 9:27 pm

Well I don't see anything there that is particularly terrible.

183proximity1
Okt. 8, 2016, 1:43 am


>182 krazy4katz:

Of course you don't. Why would you?, how could you?

184proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 9, 2016, 12:48 am


Those backing the Clintons today remind me of Nixon's supporters in 1972--utterly blind to their candidate's deeply ugly character and what that meant for the undermining of democracy.

Their stock excuses and rationalizations echo in the defensiveness of the Clintons' supporters today.

No matter what Nixon did, no matter what he'd done already, his backers dismissed it, ignored it, made excuses for it. Trying to reason with them was an exercise in futility, like trying to reason with a brick-wall.

President Johnson, by stark contrast, was so heavily disfavored by mainstream Democrats, so criticized by them for his faults and failings, that he reounced the idea of running for re-election in 1972--leaving the way open to Hubert Humphrey, himself so tainted by his close association with LBJ that he faced a primary challenge from Eugene McCarthy. (Note to young readers: Eugene McCarthy, not to be confused with the disgraced Wisconsin U.S. senator, Republican Joseph McCarthy, was regarded as politically markedly to the left of Humphrey just as Sanders was viewed compared to Hillary Clinton)

It was as impossible for many of Nixon's Democratic party critics to fail to see how crooked he was as it was to get Nixon's supporters to see it for themselves.

In 1972, many Republicans had convinced themselves that, as they saw things, 'the stakes were simply far too high to risk allowing the Democrats to return to the White House'--just as today many Democrats regard their circumstances vis-à-vis the Republicans. No matter how questionable, their candidate's success was more important than any other issue or factor. Then, the great motivating fear, the rationale by which so many blinded themselves to Nixon's character, was summed up in a single word: "Communism."

As the Republicans saw it, only their party could be trusted to take the Communist threat seriously. Incredibly, they viewed Johnson as having lacked resolution in conducting the Vietnam war. Even after four years of Nixon's pouring more men and materiel into the war and having little or nothing to show for it, Republicans and the pro-war Democrats remained convinced that the war must be won on the battlefield with the decisive defeat of the Viet Cong and that, if it had not been won already, that could only be due to too little effort--despite Nixon's escalation and, as revealed in the Pentagon Papers, which The New York Times had begun to publish in June 1971, the secret expansion of the war into Cambodia and Laos.


The F.B.I.'s own director has just given Clinton's e-mail practices a flagrantly political whitewash--going so far as to implicate himself in the suppression and destruction of material evidence and conniving with witnesses to allow their collaboration in the giving of false testimony. Clinton cannot possibly fail to regard herself as beyond the reach of the law at this point. She's benefited from the biased and corrupt aid of the Attorney General as well as F.B.I. director Comey and there is every reason to assume that all of this was done with the tacit or the express approval of President Obama--from whom Clinton can quite probably expect to receive a parting and pre-emptive pardon.

185artturnerjr
Okt. 8, 2016, 12:36 pm

To be fairer than I frankly feel like being, both the Trump and Clinton revelations (which, to those of us who have been paying attention, are really not all that revelatory) both betray a casual abuse of power that is truly disconcerting. Which is worse? Well, that'll be up to voters to decide next month, I suppose.

186lriley
Okt. 8, 2016, 1:17 pm

#185--I'm going to decide by not voting for either of them.

Really I've lost interest in the Clinton/Trump debate of who is worse. Clinton is really really bad. Trump is not competent and can't open his mouth without offending someone or some group. He is a joke. Either way we're fucked--if I were to take a wild guess we'd be more fucked with Trump.

187librorumamans
Okt. 9, 2016, 4:41 pm

>184 proximity1:

I'm not entirely disagreeing with your analysis of the 1968 campaign. And I also do not know whether you were around for it. I was, albeit on the north shore of the Great Lakes.

Certainly, communism was an important issue: the Prague Spring had taken place earlier in the year and the Soviet invasion happened during the Democratic National Convention in August.

But it was a very complicated year of massive riots, assassinations, near-revolutions in Europe and, by the time the DNC was finished, the apparent possibility of a social and political breakdown in the US. I remember it as a frightening time, even when viewed from the other side of the fence during our own excitement at having elected Trudeau père.

So, I don't think it was just that Nixon's supporters chose to overlook his shady record but also that many people were seriously spooked by what was going on. And of course what we will never know is how the election and the subsequent term would have gone if Robert Kennedy had lived.

188proximity1
Okt. 12, 2016, 10:49 am


In the Democratic Echo Chamber, Inconvenient Truths Are Recast as Putin Plots |
Glenn Greenwald |
October 11 2016, 3:14 p.m. |

https://theintercept.com/2016/10/11/in-the-democratic-echo-chamber-inconvenient-...

189barney67
Bearbeitet: Okt. 13, 2016, 11:22 am

I'm not voting. We would be worse off with Trump, regardless of what he says he believes or what he plans to do. See my post in another thread. He's not a real candidate. You might as well put the White House janitor in office.

With Clinton the country will continue to move far left, but that seems to be what people want. That's why I'm becoming an expatriate. There's so much about America I can't respect.

My glimmer of hope is that Mrs Clinton gets impeached.

190theoria
Bearbeitet: Okt. 12, 2016, 1:32 pm

>189 barney67: "My glimmer of hope is that Mrs Clinton gets impeached."

That's the hope of Republicans for every Democratic President. It is the modern way conservatives seek to nullify an election result. First, there was Bill Clinton, now there's Obama.

In 2014:
"Impeachment is America's last remaining hope of blocking the dictatorial, unconstitutional actions of the usurper in the White House, Barack Hussein Obama—along with Vice President Biden and other accomplices. And the window for doing so is fast closing on us.

Obama has said he will use his last year to complete his plan to impose his will on America – including gun control. Allowing him to do so UNIMPEDED, as he has been allowed to do for seven years, will set a precedent of executive overreach for his successors that will likely prove fatal to our republic! We can't let that happen! Obama must be STOPPED FROM DOING FURTHER DAMAGE before he leaves office, if our nation is to continue in fundamental liberty!" http://www.pledgetoimpeach.com

And recently:

"After 8 years of Obama’s disrespect for our nation’s laws, it’s up to states like Oklahoma to clean up the mess. Impeachment is the proper response to Obama’s dangerous bathroom rules." http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/breaking-news-house-calls-impeachment-barack-...

191krazy4katz
Okt. 12, 2016, 2:01 pm

>189 barney67: I'm surprised you would not vote at all even if you dislike the presidential candidates. Congress has so much power to use or abuse. Even though I am one of those left-leaning people, I would suggest you consider voting at least at the state level. We are all responsible for our country's path whether we vote or not.

192JGL53
Bearbeitet: Okt. 12, 2016, 2:43 pm

Ha Ha. trump just reminded his goofy-as-dog shit ass-clown followers not to forget to vote this coming November 28th.

trump never wanted to be POTUS. He would be one pissed muthaflocker if people were stupid enough to elect him. He is the consummate carnival barker and bullshit artist. That is who he is. POTUS? He has no real interest in that. Too much responsibility for too little pay.

Clinton is a narcissist who has only one motivating ambition - to be POTUS no matter what it takes. I think she will get her wish.

I think there will be a Democratic majority in the Senate. They will not let her do anything that people would hate. E.g. she might try to reverse herself - again - on the TPP - or really do something stupid like bring back Keystone pipeline or something like that - or invade a new country. There is only so much a President can do if congress opposes him or her. And a republican-controlled House will be hell-bent on opposing everything she might try.

I think a HRC Presidency will be fun to watch. I look forward to it.

I also hope I can outlive trump. A trump-free world is a beautiful dream I long to experience.

193proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 13, 2016, 5:08 am



Note : If the importance of the following article does not strike you with force right in the face, then, I submit, you are part of what is truly very seriously wrong politically, intellectually and morally in this country today.

To me, this puts the presidential election in at least part of its most essential perspective:

(pjmedia.com) : WikiLeaks Exposes Workings of an American 'Nomenklatura'
| BY ROGER L SIMON | OCTOBER 11, 2016

https://pjmedia.com/diaryofamadvoter/2016/10/11/wikileaks-exposes-workings-of-an...

Roger Simon is author of I Know Best: How Moral Narcissism Is Destroying Our Republic, If It Hasn't Already

Roger Simonl

I Know Best: How Moral Narcissism Is Destroying Our Republic, If It Hasn't Already

194RickHarsch
Okt. 13, 2016, 7:54 am

>193 proximity1: So the article most won't read because of the obnoxious preceding note posits a nomenklura-like elite, exposed by wikileaks, that is composed of the Democratic Party leadership and the media. Of course there is a media elite and a Democratic Party elite, so wikileaks can easily fine evidence of shenanigans perpetrated by members of each. But the reason the article did not land its superhero right-cross to my noggin is that the elite in the US, those with power, comprise Republicans, right-wing media, industrialists, financiers, bankers, military figures, state politicians, construction giants, etc.

What is revealed here is that Rush Limbaugh, maybe Bill O'Reilly, too could land a job with PJMedia.

195davidgn
Bearbeitet: Okt. 13, 2016, 8:44 am

>188 proximity1:
For a very well-informed discussion on this, try Radio War Nerd #51.

(Full version may be found here: https://huffduffer.com/PixelRobot/360950 )

Really, listen to the whole thing, but...
Starting at 1:02:28:

"Gary Brecher": "But what's really going on on the so-called liberal media side as I understand it looking from outside is that Hillary Clinton is the worst candidate anybody could ever imagine. She's not doing as well against the guy who seemed unelectable to people who consider themselves the appointed pundit class of the US. Therefore there must be some kind of conspiracy. And it can't be that people don't listen to us as much as we think, and people actively dislike the candidate that we made them pick when they made clear they didn't want her. Therefore, it's the Russians."

Discussion of Manafort at 1:07:00 ""I'm the one that wrote the damn story!" -- Mark Ames (which, in fact, he did...)

1:24:42 -- talks about former colleague Olivia Nuzzi at the Daily Beast who's been tweeting things like "Russian disinformation is incredible. We shouldn't be repeating anything that's leaked that may have been leaked by Russian intelligence 'cause then were' just promoting Russian disinformation, which is anti-American." To which he reacts, "Oh my God, they've gotten too you, too! I've seen this before! I've already seen this, and it was a scam!"

Goes on to a discussion of the Reagan-era novel The Spike, written by a couple of nasty intelligence operators, Arnaud de Borchgrave and Robert Moss (whose history is explained in detail) and the uncanny parallels with the present climate.

A couple other highlights:
2:34:30 - on chilling effect for reporters of Russian-disinfo FUD

2:38:20 -- Essential list of headlines, with discussion. Including:
July 21, WaPo: "Trump Proves He's a Putin Lapdog"
July 25, Daily Beast: "FBI Suspects Russia Hacked DNC; US Officials Say It Was To Elect Donald Trump"
July 25, WaPo: "Putin's Suspected Meddling in a U.S. Election Would Be A Disturbing First"
July 26, Daily Beast (Michael Weiss -- who is routinely raked over the coals by Ames, including earlier in the episode): "Russia's Long History of Messing With Americans' Minds Before the DNC Hack"
July 27, WaPo: "By November, Russian Hackers Could Target Voting Machines"
July 28, NBC: "Could Russian Hackers Spoil Election Day?"
...then, a couple weeks later, articles saying: "Russians Are Trying To Plant Stories In The Media To Make Us Doubt The Voting Results"
(Even the exposes of Russian interference are an example of Russian interference. --"That's when it all begins to have a sort of clinical look to it" --Brecher
July 30, Express (UK) "Vladimir Putin Waging A Propaganda War From INSIDE Britain!" -- "Still using the Reagan trope that the universities are a source of cultural contagion.... Nobody can come up with a new storyline for these things" --Brecher
August 5, NYT - "For Putin, Disinformation Is Power" (written by Arkady Ostrovsky of The Economist, who Ames points out was one of two journalists given passports by Saakashvili on account of their pro-Georgian reporting on the Ossetian war -- with no career consequences when that was revealed)
The Federalist - "Russia's Cyber-Warfare Has Bigger Aims Than Electing Donald Trump" -- "You see how this thing quickly cycles." --Ames
Sept 8, WaPo, Anne Applebaum: "How Russia Could Spark A US Electoral Disaster"
Sept 9, WaPo, "Men Who Allegedly Hacked..." -- The guys who hacked Clapper et al.'s email turned out to be a bunch of US/UK dweebs, "Crackaz With Attitude". "This one I like, because this one fucks up the narrative. --Ames" "That Russian influence is pretty pervasive" --Brecher
Sept 12, WaPo, "The man who discovered CTE thinks Hillary Clinton may have been poisoned" ("And then for a few days, (until) she finally admitted she had pneumonia, all the media came out, Michael Weiss and everyone, pushing the story that she must have been poisoned by Putin. I swear to God! You missed that one." --Ames) After mocking rumors on Hillary's health, "Then they had to cover their tracks somehow. .... 'Oh, well then it must be a Putin plot.' Any time you screw up, it's always Russian intelligence." --Ames
...
Sept 15, CNN: The New Red Scare: Russia Ups Role in World Events, US Elections -- "What they're saying is that they're promoting a false hysteria. They don't quite know the meaning of "red scare" here." -- Ames
Sept 16, Financial Times: "Russia's Dark Art of Disinformation"

and a backtrack:
June 21, Telegraph (UK): "Is Vladimir Putin Orchestrating Russian Football Hooligans To Push Britain Out of the EU?"
--"I remember, even anti-Russian reporters from Britain were like, 'You're making us look bad now!'" --Ames

etc., etc.

There's a reason this weekly podcast is pulling in over $12,000 a month from subscribers on Patreon. Honestly, some of the best media criticism to be had anywhere -- so much so that I just spent a good chunk of my morning going over it again for you. You're welcome.

196barney67
Okt. 13, 2016, 11:18 am

I've never said anything about impeaching Obama. No, I don't wish it on every Democrat president, only the ones who have no business being president. The Clintons qualify.

Now which one is Boss Hogg and which is Enos?

197barney67
Okt. 13, 2016, 11:19 am

>195 davidgn: What? Can you summarize that infodump? What's your point?

198barney67
Bearbeitet: Okt. 13, 2016, 11:21 am

>191 krazy4katz: Yes, I should have clarified. I'm not voting for president. I will vote for the other offices.

199davidgn
Bearbeitet: Okt. 13, 2016, 11:53 am

>197 barney67: That's not an argument, it's an index. A useful one if you care to use it. The point is summed up in the first Brecher quote, but unlike with other treatments it's then backed up with a bevy of historical and professional insights from two people in a uniquely suited position to provide them. If you want more of a summary, you'll need to let me get to a proper keyboard. I hope to entice people to listen to at least a few segments of the piece, where I put in the timestamps.

200proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 13, 2016, 12:18 pm

Is this supposed to be read and taken at face-value or understood as a mocking of those who explain HrC's difficulties on Putin's meddling?


"But what's really going on on the so-called liberal media side as I understand it looking from outside is that Hillary Clinton is the worst candidate anybody could ever imagine. She's not doing as well against the guy who seemed unelectable to people who consider themselves the appointed pundit class of the US. Therefore there must be some kind of conspiracy. And it can't be that people don't listen to us as much as we think, and people actively dislike the candidate that we made them pick when they made clear they didn't want her. Therefore, it's the Russians."


If Putin is behind the Wikileaks dumps, our only concern is their veracity and authenticity--not who leaked them. On this point see my previous post linking the not-always-sharp-or-correct Glenn Greenwald, above because happens to get this right for a change. If Putin's only meddling is in giving Wikileaks authentic documents, then we as voters should be grateful. If it's more & other than that, then our own NSA should have and produce the proofs of this.

So?

201krazy4katz
Okt. 13, 2016, 12:40 pm

>200 proximity1: The problem is that the "dump" is occurring so close to the election that there may not be enough time to validate them. I assume the NSA has other things to do that would have to be interrupted to do this ASAP. So it's a question of priorities.

202davidgn
Okt. 13, 2016, 12:40 pm

Go for the mockery interpretation.

203krazy4katz
Bearbeitet: Okt. 13, 2016, 12:49 pm

Thanks. I can never tell with this group.

ETA: >202 davidgn: sorry! I guess you were replying to >200 proximity1:

My statement still stands though.

204proximity1
Okt. 13, 2016, 1:22 pm


>201 krazy4katz:

NSA putting out their proofs of their already-claimed possession of this sure evidence of direct and deliberate meddling through the use of falsified data checked by Wikileaks -- this is a secondary priority? --and you _recommend_ Obama's own choice for his successor! ?--with the reputation of WL at stake, which is their whole existence?

Yes, you were _born_ to vote for the Clintons

Let me challenge you: if you think Wikileaks is so inept that it has been abused by Putin in a dump of Podesta's e-mail traffic--well over a thousand documents which, as far as I've seen, look and sound authentic, then you should demonstrate for us the ease with which false data can be passed off to them

Yes --send them your best lure If you fool them, you'd be an overnight sensation worldwide because, so far, as I understand it, not a single one of these mails has been convincingly shown up as inauthentic
--not one

The State Department's own record can't match WikiLeaks Just ask Colin Powell about it

Meanwhile, you're deep in a psychotic's denial

205barney67
Okt. 13, 2016, 1:23 pm

I read the quote and concluded Gary Brecher is a whack job.

206davidgn
Bearbeitet: Okt. 13, 2016, 2:15 pm

>205 barney67: See >202 davidgn:.

I'm sorry the deep sarcasm and satirical stance don't seem to be coming through for people.

ETA:
Some bios might help (see the bottom): http://exiledonline.com/vanity-fair-profiles-the-exile/

Might also help to know that Gary Brecher is a pen name and satirical character animated by John Dolan (who is a former professor of English at the University of Otago, which position he vacated in order to go screw around in Russia with Mark Ames -- his former student at Berkeley). Since Putin kicked their newspaper out of the country, they've stuck together over the years. But yes, to be fair, Gary Brecher is a bit of a whack job. He was written that way. ;-)

207margd
Okt. 14, 2016, 5:15 am

Former nuclear launch officers sign letter: Trump ‘should not have his finger on the button’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/10-former-nuclear-launch-...

Ten former nuclear launch control officers who once held the keys needed to fire on the president’s order have signed an open letter saying they think Donald Trump should not be entrusted with the nation’s nuclear codes.

The letter, issued Thursday, says the decision to use nuclear weapons requires “composure, judgment, restraint and diplomatic skill” — all qualities that the former Air Force officers who signed it said Trump lacks.

“On the contrary, he has shown himself time and again to be easily baited and quick to lash out, dismissive of expert consultation and ill-informed of even basic military and international affairs — including, most especially, nuclear weapons,” the letter says. “Donald Trump should not be the nation’s commander-in-chief. He should not be entrusted with the nuclear launch codes. He should not have his finger on the button.”...

208proximity1
Okt. 15, 2016, 11:11 am


Donald Trump is Right to Point Out that Clinton Should Be Prosecuted

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/441105/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-jail-p...

210JGL53
Bearbeitet: Okt. 15, 2016, 10:05 pm

> 208/209

Both candidates are horrible. Let us specify that the facts demonstrate this truth to an overwhelmingly high degree of confidence.

As to the election HRC is going to win. Pretty much in the bag.

There is nothing more to say, really.

Case closed. End of discussion. Onward and upward. Don't Bogart that joint. Yes we have no bananas. In a gadda da vida, baby.

211proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 16, 2016, 12:26 pm

>210 JGL53:


Learn a little history:

This, in 1972,



didn't settle this,




Or prevent this,




------------

" ● October 10, 1972: FBI agents establish that the Watergate break-in stems from a massive campaign of political spying and sabotage conducted on behalf of the Nixon reelection effort, The Post reports.
● November 11, 1972: Nixon is reelected in one of the largest landslides in American political history, taking more than 60 percent of the vote and crushing the Democratic nominee, Sen. George McGovern of South Dakota."
Link : http://watergate.info/chronology/brief-timeline-of-events

-----

212lriley
Bearbeitet: Okt. 16, 2016, 10:23 am

#212---if Clinton were to be impeached and forced to resign or even prosecuted---which is a reach---a big reach IMO--still her VP Tim Kaine will step in for her. That's the way it goes. You might like Kaine more--I don't know--but I wouldn't expect any substantive policy changes of direction from Hillary to Kaine. Not really. Generally speaking the government still in the hands of the same entities. Still for sale to Wall St. and large corporations. The Democratic party will still be on the same path. Nothing gets solved with a Hillary impeachment and whatever backlash there would be would favor the right wing of the country.

213JGL53
Bearbeitet: Okt. 16, 2016, 11:23 am

^

I have no predictions of what may or may not happen in a HRC administration - maybe very bad things that will make RMN look like a mere piker in comparison. OK, whatever. Amurica will survive.

I think that the orange scum from Hell will lose, and quite badly, because he disgusts more people, and in a more intense way, than does HRC. The lesser of evils will win.

If not and orange scum wins then fine - we can all look forward to the building of a wall, the expulsion of 11 million people from the U.S. and a whole lot of sexual assault, i.e., "pussy"-grabbing. hahahaha.

That's all pretty much in your dreams though, prox.

214proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 16, 2016, 12:18 pm

>212 lriley:
"Nothing gets solved with a Hillary impeachment and whatever backlash there would be would favor the right wing of the country."

Investigating, finding and prosecuting serious felonies committed by the PotUS and impeaching, convicting and removing the president for them is not "solves nothing," FFS.

And, yes, it leaves many OTHER issues and problems right where they were--just as not impeaching & removing a crooked president does-- fucking "DUH!"

215proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 16, 2016, 12:19 pm

As things now stand at mid-October, I would be extremely surprised if :

■ Hillary Clinton wasn't sworn in as the next president of the United States --whether she wins or cheats her way through the November 8th balloting or not;

■ the US House of Representatives didn't pursue investigations into the Clinton home e-mail server scandal;
→ ◆ and didn't find more incriminating evidence including evidence of any or all of the following: obstruction of justice, conspiracy to obstruct justice, perjury, conspiracy to commit perjury, suborn perjury, destroy criminal evidence, bribe1 or threaten witnesses, and other felonies
→ ◆ and that evidence didn't directly implicate Hillary Clinton and senior members of her presidential campaign and her State Department staffs in those impeachable felonies

■ Hillary Clinton didn't persist in pretending to cooperate while actually refusing (as is her legal right) to cooperate with the congressional committees' enquiries

■ The congressional committees' enquiries didn't end in the drawing up of a bill of impeachment

■ Hillary Clinton didn't refuse to resign her office

(in which case,) ■ Hillary Clinton wasn't impeached and charges referred to the Senate for trial

At this point, if the US Senate has remained in Republican party majority's direction, →

■ Hillary Clinton wasn't convicted, removed from office and

■ Vice president Kaine wasn't sworn in as her successor

Unless she resigns in advance at some point in the above sequence, I think her tenure is more likely than not to end in impeachment, trial and (deserved) conviction & removal, giving us President Kaine

■ The future former-FBI Director, James Comey wasn't indicted on criminal charges stemming from his part in the matter

------------

1 : " Patrick Kennedy, the undersecretary of state for management, discussed providing additional overseas slots for the FBI in exchange for revisions to classifications of the sensitive emails."
http://www.weeklystandard.com/an-attempted-hillary-email-coverup/article/2004907 |08 :09 PM, OCT 15, 2016 | By STEPHEN F. HAYES

216barney67
Okt. 16, 2016, 11:54 am

I don't think Nixon was our worst president. He didn't cause near the damage that Obama has. Or Johnson. Etc.

A professor in college told me that most presidents have probably committed impeachable offenses, if only because "high crimes and misdemeanors" is vague and can be defined however you want to define it.

217barney67
Okt. 16, 2016, 11:57 am

Mrs Clinton would certainly not resign. She lacks the decency of Nixon. Her m.o. has always been deny, deny, deny.

The pursuit of impeachment would backfire, just as it did with Mr Clinton. The press will never allow a Democrat to be impeached because that would take away the Nixon card, the gift that keeps giving.

218theoria
Bearbeitet: Okt. 16, 2016, 12:07 pm

>217 barney67: What does the "press" have to do with "allowing" an impeachment?

It's worth noting that impeachment proceedings, the Republican tactic for nullifying an election result, could well increase Ms Clinton's popularity. During December 1998 when Bill Clinton was impeached, his approval rating by week was massively favorable http://www.gallup.com/poll/116584/presidential-approval-ratings-bill-clinton.asp...

98 Dec 19-20: 73% favorable 25 2 (the highest in his two terms)

98 Dec 15-16: 63% favorable 33 4

98 Dec 12-13: 64% favorable 34 2

98 Dec 4-6: 66% favorable 30 4

219barney67
Okt. 16, 2016, 1:14 pm

>218 theoria: Almost everything. But apparently you are the last defender of a serial rapist.

220theoria
Okt. 16, 2016, 1:18 pm

>219 barney67: >217 barney67: "The press will never allow a Democrat to be impeached"

Your claim is contradicted by reality: Bill Clinton (Democrat) was impeached.

Mr Clinton wasn't impeached because he's a "serial rapist." He was impeached for lying under oath about having an affair.

221lriley
Okt. 16, 2016, 6:19 pm

The republicans really had no stomach for forcing Bill Clinton to resign--not after he turned the tables on them and fucked over the speakership of Gingrich and the congressional careers of Livingston, Burton and Hyde. Seriously there were going to be more--if they'd have forced him out he wasn't going to hell on his own---he was going to drag a lot of them with him. After the above mentioned debacles that was pretty clear. If you wanted political theater he was good for that. Personally an opinion--he should have been forced out but the same could be said for Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush just on the Iran Contra they both should have been going to prison but nope.

Really the Democrats and Republicans need each other--their separate existences legitimize each other. And as long as there are lots of people who still believe in their lies they'll continue to do such. So there's really good reason for them to threaten impeachment but not to carry through. It helps keep them where they are.

Anyway Gingrich, Livingston, Burton, Hyde, Foley, Delay, Hastert--all corrupt and/or perverted republican congressmen with lots and lots of clout--the Republican party is hardly a party of good morals like they'd like people to believe.

222krazy4katz
Okt. 16, 2016, 6:41 pm

>221 lriley: Right, so what do you think we should do?

223alco261
Okt. 16, 2016, 9:05 pm

>217 barney67: Nixon had the decency to resign???? Decency had nothing to do with it - in the days of Watergate he knew if he was removed from office on conviction in an impeachment trial he would lose all of his retirement benefits but if he resigned before impeachment he would keep them...and that is exactly what he did. (Reference - Presidential Impeachment - John Labovitz)

224proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 17, 2016, 8:22 am

>223 alco261:

You're relating well-reasoned information based on informed and sound interpretation of facts--in other words, you're way over Barney67's head.

225proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 17, 2016, 8:22 am

You're reading the WikiLeaks release of some of Clinton's speeches to Goldman Sachs executives, right? Because you're interested and want to judge for yourself, right? So you looked them up and found them, right?

Of course you haven't! --right?

NPR's site has them here.

226proximity1
Okt. 17, 2016, 2:19 am


And now, this--- "The Labour Panto" from

'Jonathan Pie' (Comedian & political analyst extraordinaire, Tom Walker )

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4BLex9gOI_o

227RickHarsch
Okt. 17, 2016, 7:43 am

>214 proximity1: How we lament the degeneration of political discourse...Here's proximityw: 'fucking "DUH!"'

I love 'decency to resign'

(a lot of decency had built up from lack of use and was bound to seep out sooner or later)

228margd
Okt. 17, 2016, 8:50 am

"Après moi, le déluge" sayeth The Donald... If/when he loses, he'll be spouting conspiracy theory as long as anyone will listen--his followers longer than the rest of us, no doubt. Continued erosion of confidence in our institutions will be bad enough--sure hope no violence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/17/us/politics/donald-trump-election-rigging.html...

229proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 17, 2016, 12:13 pm


Trump's Misdemeanors vs. Hillary's Felonies

By Roger Kimball October 16, 2016

https://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2016/10/16/do-we-even-need-elections-anymore/?s...

If President Obama was--as it seems to have been the case--a fellow particpant in the use of HRC's home e-mail connection (i.e. he addressed mail to her via that address) then he'd also been one of those "in the loop" and a trial of Clinton would inevitably disclose this and perhaps other inconvenient things about Obama's awareness of this off-the-reservation server.

What do you know?!

Or, to translate for the dip-shit moron Hillary-bots: How could Obama's "Justice" Dept prosecute the Secretary of State for violations of law concerning the transmission of her official government correspondance over an unauthorized and illegally set-up computer server when the president himself was an occasional correspondent of Clinton's via the same server?

230margd
Bearbeitet: Okt. 17, 2016, 11:22 am

228 contd.

And here's how Trump will continue after losing election(?):

"...Jared Kushner, Trump’s son-in-law turned trusted campaign adviser, has approached a top media dealmaker about the possibility of establishing a Trump TV network post-election..."

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/10/jared-kushner-donald-trump-tv-network

"...the approach suggests Mr Kushner and the Republican candidate himself are thinking about how to capitalise on the populist movement that has sprung up around their campaign in the event of an election defeat to Democrat Hillary Clinton next month..."

https://www.ft.com/content/7dc39954-940e-11e6-a1dc-bdf38d484582

And Roger Ailes is just the guy to run the new Trump network??

231theoria
Okt. 17, 2016, 11:38 am

>230 margd: A joint Ailes/Breitbart production. An Al Jazeera for the Alt Right.

232JGL53
Bearbeitet: Okt. 17, 2016, 11:59 am

Dieser Beitrag hat von mehreren Benutzern eine Missbrauchskennzeichnung erhalten und wird nicht mehr angezeigt. (anzeigen)
In 22 days and a few hours proximity1 is going to need to find a new hobby. The one he has now, which is embarrassing him so, will go away.

What will his new hobby be? Will he take up the conspiracy theory of his fellow trumpets as promoted every hour now by trump - that the election is rigged?

Will proximity1 be that big a fool?

I will never put proximity1 on block - I find his ass clown numbnuts ramblings an amusing diversion.

proximity1 is clearly off his meds. Let's hope he never goes back on as the loss to the world of self-parodying comedy would be HUGE.

233RickHarsch
Okt. 17, 2016, 12:10 pm

Sometimes it's worth taking a few flags for the greater good

234proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 17, 2016, 12:32 pm

;^)

>232 JGL53: !?!?

Why, after Crooked Hillary--The DLC's very own version of Richard "Tricky Dick" 'I-Am-Not -a-Crook!' Nixon --Clinton's election as president of the United States, should I find myself with less occasion to comment about our corrupt oligarchy! ?

Until she's impeached, referred for trial to the Senate, convicted and at last removed from office --making her not just the first woman president but also the first to be impeached, convicted and removed as well as the first husband-and-wife couple ever to both be elected president of the US and impeached by the House of Representatives--LOL! --I don't see myself getting a day off!

Only one question remains open : when packing and leaving the White House again--leaving it to her Vice-President, Tim Kaine-- shall she again try to get away with stealing some White House china and cutlery?

235StormRaven
Okt. 17, 2016, 1:50 pm

Until she's impeached, referred for trial to the Senate, convicted and at last removed from office --making her not just the first woman president but also the first to be impeached, convicted and removed as well as the first husband-and-wife couple ever to both be elected president of the US and impeached by the House of Representatives--LOL! --I don't see myself getting a day off!

You're going to be waiting a long time. Only in conspiranoid fantasies is that anything other than an extraordinarily unlikely outcome.

shall she again try to get away with stealing some White House china and cutlery?

Both Politifact and Snopes have rated this claim as mostly false. You should do some actual research about what happened and why before you try to make quips. Otherwise you look quite foolish.

236JGL53
Bearbeitet: Okt. 17, 2016, 2:27 pm

>233 RickHarsch:

I assume I received the flags in the sense that what I pointed out was agreeably received, as in:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/put-the-flags-out

If not, then OK - 1. Pointing out the obvious and 2. my particular sense of humor are both not particularly appreciated in some corners. It happens. My ramblings only please some of the people some of the time and I consider such as just "life in the fast lane".

>234 proximity1:

I looked in the dictionary of phrases under "real piece of work" and there was your picture. You are quite a handsome person.

- What will happen to HRC once she becomes POTUS? It's sheer speculation for everyone right now and all extant opinions are ontologically equivalent. Maybe she will have a successful 8 years, maybe not. I think the majority on Nov. 8 will register their curiosity to know how such will actually go.

IOW, Job # 1 right now is the defeat - hopefully the utter electoral annihilation - of one d.j. trump, A.K.A. -

1. The Stage Four Syphilitic Bloviating Bag of Botulism and Toxic Sludge
2. The Malignant Ass Clown
3. The Rear End of a Ginger Tomcat
4. Leonardo da Bullshit,
5. The Love Child of Mussolini and an Orangutan
6. The Irritable Bowel Syndrome Poster Child
7. The Fucker Upper
8. The Shit-based Orangesicle
9. Mr. Baby Hands
10. The Anus of Animosity
11. The Melting Christmas Ham
12. Clownface Von Fuckstick
13. Mein Trumpf!
14. White Power`s Wet-dream
15. Twat-in-Chief.

It's a three-way toss-up for my favorite A.K.A. -

Hair Hitler! (Envision shouting this while giving a Hogan's Heroes-type nazi salute.)

or

The Supreme Culmination of All Human Accumulative Collective Misdeeds in the History of Civilization.

or

The Repugnant Pussy-Grabbing Fascistic Mendacious Bastard Vulgarian and Festering Sore of Hypocrisy.

237RickHarsch
Okt. 17, 2016, 3:13 pm

>235 StormRaven: Would mostly false mean she just took the spoons?

238krazy4katz
Okt. 17, 2016, 4:54 pm

Well I deflagged JGL53 because after reading what proximity1 says about people like me (directly and indirectly), I figured no one could possibly be flagged on Pro and Con. Nothing is too egregious. Perhaps a false assumption on my part.

239RickHarsch
Okt. 17, 2016, 4:58 pm

>238 krazy4katz: What I like about the flags is that you can still read the offending posts. But I've noticed (so I think) over the years that just having this mild policy generally keeps the discourse within the bounds of...well on a higher plane than a conversation with Trump involved, let's say.

240StormRaven
Okt. 17, 2016, 5:23 pm

237: It means that they took stuff, but that the stuff was mostly okay to take, the stuff that wasn't was somewhat unclear, and the only problem was that it created a negative public perception.

Here's what actually happened:

Presidents receive gifts while they are in office. This happens all the time. Gifts from foreigners have to be reported and the President may only keep them if they are below a certain value threshhold or if the President pays fair market value for them (all gifts are accepted so as not to offend the gift-giver, those of higher value the President doesn't choose to pay for go into a GSA vault as Federal property and are auctioned off at the end of the Administration). Gifts from U.S. citizens have some limitations, depending on the source, but mostly are fine for a President to keep, so long as he reports the gift value.

When the Clinton's left office, they declared $190,000 in gifts they were taking, which is a large amount but not wildly out of line with what other Presidents have reported as gifts. There was some controversy because some gift-givers said they had thought they had given a gift to the White House and not to the President, and thought those gifts were going to stay, but the intention of many of these gifts was unclear.

Although they were not required to, the Clinton's decided that for public relations purposes, they would pay $86,000 for some of the property, and return a portion of the remainder of the property. Note that this was not done under any compulsion, and there is no real evidence that they could have been legally compelled to pay for or return any of these items. Most of the items were items arguably gifted to the President by U.S. citizens, and as a result legally theirs. For some it was unclear if the gift was to the President as an individual or the White House, but that lack of clarity would have made it very difficult to bring a legal claim against them for their return.

There are more details, mostly involving the fact that multiple agencies are involved in handling these sorts of items, and questions relating to the valuation of certain items, but in broad strokes, that's pretty much it.

241lriley
Okt. 17, 2016, 5:56 pm

On the subject of flags--I've never flagged anyone for anything.

242RickHarsch
Okt. 17, 2016, 7:40 pm

>Well I was just trying to be funny...But it elicited a funny story: thanks. (I think thirty years ago it would not have been a story, and if it were the outcome would be known well enough that it would not have survived as a weapon for conspiracists.)

(Bill Maher offers some explanation of the current state of affairs here: http://crooksandliars.com/2016/10/bill-maher-media-confuses-fair-and)

243RickHarsch
Bearbeitet: Okt. 17, 2016, 7:43 pm

>240 StormRaven: I was just trying to be funny, but good story anyway--thanks. Here's a bit from Bill Maher on some of the reasons such conspiracy riffs survive: http://crooksandliars.com/2016/10/bill-maher-media-confuses-fair-and

eta: i thought i had lost 242 so quickly redid it...

244krazy4katz
Okt. 17, 2016, 7:46 pm

245theoria
Okt. 17, 2016, 7:48 pm

It appears Ecuador finally tired of being used by the fugitive celebrity hacktivist and the Russian FSB with whom he works.

246lriley
Okt. 17, 2016, 10:15 pm

Kind of remember Paul Wellstone once saying he belonged to the left wing of the democratic party. R.I.P. to him.

247theoria
Okt. 17, 2016, 10:26 pm

>246 lriley: He actually said "I represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic party."

248proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 18, 2016, 8:45 am

>235 StormRaven: :


My judgement is based on my having lived through the period of the Watergate scandal. While many others alive today did, too, they didn't all necessarily follow it as I did. It was my daily primary preoccupation while it lasted. At that time, The New York Times wasn't available in most major cities on the day of publication as was later the case--so I subscribed by mail. After a while, I decided I needed to get the daily Washington Post, too--so I subscribed to the metro edition, by mail. The Post, as run by Katherine Graham and edited by Benjamin Bradlee, was an entirely different institution then--not the piece of shit we know it to be today.

While my copies arrived two or three days after publication, I discovered that, even late, they were rich in valuable details which the wire services didn't always --or, rather, usually did not --include in their summaries of Post and Times news stories--I also got the full opinion pages' views. Much of my political formation was at this time and from these events.

Just as you have, above, most people in October of 1972, even experienced Washington pols, scoffed at the idea that Nixon could be impeached at all, never mind within nineteen months.

What I understand much better now, partly owed to that formative time, is the process by which the piling up of facts takes a toll on supporters' faith and trust, gradually undermining it until it collapses. The ranks of the faithful thin as once-loyal supporters drop away. What appeared inconceivable eighteen months previously comes to seem inevitable.

You probably consider Clinton's support now so solid that nothing could put her tenure in jeopardy. I know that even solid support today won't stand up against hard facts if they come to show her to have actively engaged in a political white-wash and cover-up. The facts, once revealed, can decimate that solid support. It won't endure the process of each day's or week's fresh shocking piece of news. In the end, Chelsea and Bill will be advising her to resign to spare herself and the family further heartache.

This situation is serious for the Clintons and others politically nearest them--and for D-FBI Comey. The handwriting is already on the wall. You don't see this but I do and your opinions about it, versus my lived experience, do not impress me in the slightest.

When FBI Director Patrick Gray tried to shield Nixon, others in the bureau--notably Mark Felt, as we now know--assisted Woodward and Bernstein in getting around Gray's running interference. Something similar will occur again.

249proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 18, 2016, 10:20 am


Just suppose Clinton is elected--

whether the US Senate changes its majority party or not, can you imagine the shit-storm if she were to reappoint James Comey as D-FBI !? --{Revised note: his term of office runs ten years from his appointment by Obama, 4, September 2O13}--assuming he doesn't resign first.

& if Comey resigned, who'd step in after him and protect the whitewash & cover-up?

250StormRaven
Okt. 18, 2016, 8:21 am

I know that, against hard facts, which, if they come show her to have actively engaged in a political white-wash and cover-up, can decimate that solid support and it won't endure the process of each day's or week's fresh shocking piece of news.

I've seen what you consider "hard facts". They don't even pass the laugh test. You're engaged in conspiracy theory paranoia.

if not Comey, who'd step in after him and protect the whitewash & cover-up?

You're assuming a whitewash and cover-up based upon some pretty silly "evidence".

251lriley
Okt. 18, 2016, 9:01 am

#247--well the point was he made a distinction.

252RickHarsch
Okt. 18, 2016, 9:16 am

>248 proximity1: To distill the argument: 'I read the papers and watched the TV when Nixon was a felon so I know what's going to happen with Clinton's presidency.'

253St._Troy
Okt. 18, 2016, 12:18 pm

>248 proximity1:: "...the piling up of facts takes a toll on supporters' faith and trust, gradually undermining it until it collapses."

Eminently logical.

>248 proximity1:: "You probably consider Clinton's support now so solid that nothing could put her tenure in jeopardy. I know that even solid support today won't stand up against hard facts if they come to show her to have actively engaged in a political white-wash and cover-up. The facts, once revealed, can decimate that solid support. It won't endure the process of each day's or week's fresh shocking piece of news. In the end, Chelsea and Bill will be advising her to resign to spare herself and the family further heartache."

Do you see this process unfolding prior to the election (a very small time frame) or after she takes office (assuming a win)? While I do see what you mean, I (perhaps cynically, perhaps perceptively) believe that, once in office, all this becomes more background noise (as opposed to Watergate, which was 'news') that the nation simply accepts and ignores. Perhaps America cared more in those days? I was a child when Watergate unfolded and have no memory of it.

254proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 18, 2016, 1:55 pm


>253 St._Troy: : " Do you see this process unfolding prior to the election (a very small time frame) or after she takes office (assuming a win)?"

This will extend through the first year of her term and could take over a year or two. Or something dramatic and unforseen might speed things up considerably. The thing is, in every such case, there are numerous key figures who know very well what went on and they're constantly re-calculating how safe they are by remaining silent. As cracks in the wall of silence develop, these calculations become trickier and riskier. The last to come forward doesn't get the best deal.

To manage and maintain a cover-up drains increasing time and energy. Other needs in governance suffer in the meantime.
---------

Sounds shocking to me to admit it but I don't think Americans in general at the time were more aware, interested

or alert. The Watergate events weren't immediately or originally described as a "scandal" or "crisis." It took months for the emerging story to develop so that ordinary people busy with their own lives'affairs started paying attention.

But gradually a picture came into focus and it was recognized as both sinister and not some partisan mass-media plot to "get Nixon"--though he and many of his supporters thought so.

See this chronology of key events to understand how long this episode ran :
.......
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_timeline

The Watergate break-in -- on ..June 17, 1972--was not the first operation of the clandestine group which was called "the plumbers."

It took three months before the ties to the White House became impossible to explain away. And it wasn't until the end of April 1973, (See April 3O, 1973 Time magazine cover ) when high White House staff were obliged to resign that things began to unravel very quickly. (The resignation (or dismissal) of junior or, in worse circumstances, senior, staff is always a desperate device to save the top figure from the responsibility which belongs to him--or to her.) Congressional hearings began soon after. For over a year, Nixon adamantly denied there was any knowledge of or connection with the "plumbers" and the break-in. It was then that the term "stone-walling"--to refer to a high official's refusals to respond to the press-- came into the language.

(Ironically, Hillary Clinton was a young lawyer employed on the staff of one of the two principal Watergate enquiry committees. )

255RickHarsch
Okt. 18, 2016, 1:05 pm

>254 proximity1: I was 13 in 1972, raised in a middle class suburb of Chicago, and the thing was in the air constantly from some point in 1973...(my parents voted for Nixon)...So I think that those were different times: the network news was more substantive and the print news capable of depth and flexibility. Nixon's language on tape was a BIG deal. His disgrace was shocking. Even I could feel the shock, as a 14-15 year old.

(And I believe the reaction was for USAmericans to grow tired of being bad, wrong, unjust, etc., and Reagan filled a desperate psychological need...)

256krolik
Okt. 18, 2016, 6:15 pm

>252 RickHarsch:
Thanks! Could you make this a regular service? Those posts are awfully long and life is awfully short. I simply can't get through threads anymore. I realize it's asking a lot, but maybe Tim could pay you in those nifty badges or something.

Carry on!

257RickHarsch
Okt. 18, 2016, 7:04 pm

Badges? i don't need no stinkin badges...

258RickHarsch
Okt. 18, 2016, 7:07 pm

>254 proximity1: Distillation: Hillary impeachment could happen rapidly due to unforeseen rapid action event. Nixon's plumbers did not just break into the Watergate.
Oh, and everyone is stupid.

259JGL53
Okt. 18, 2016, 7:11 pm

260lriley
Bearbeitet: Okt. 18, 2016, 8:42 pm

261proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 26, 2016, 9:31 am

from WikiLeaks® as reported in the Washington Post

By Rosalind S. Helderman | Politics
Tuesday, October 25 at 6:47 PM. --

Podesta & Tanden



“Speaking of transparency, our friends Kendall, Cheryl and Phillipe sure weren’t forthcoming on the facts here,” John Podesta complained in the March 2015 note, referring to Clinton’s personal lawyer, David Kendall, as well as former State Department staffers Cheryl Mills and Philippe Reines.

“Why didn’t they get this stuff out like 18 months ago? So crazy,” replied Neera Tanden, a longtime Podesta friend who also has worked for Clinton. Then, answering her own question, Tanden wrote again: “I guess I know the answer. They wanted to get away with it.”

The emails show that while aides struggled to get past the public controversy, they also expressed exasperation at each other and, at times, at Clinton — both for her decision to use the server and for the way she handled questions about it. Several exchanges illustrate fears among some top advisers that Clinton and other aides were demonstrating the very traits that polls suggested made her vulnerable: a penchant for secrecy and a hesitancy to admit fault or error.

“We’ve taken on a lot of water that won’t be easy to pump out of the boat,” Podesta wrote to Tanden in September 2015, at a time when Clinton’s campaign feared that Vice President Biden was about to enter the race for the Democratic presidential nomination. “Most of that has to do with terrible decisions made pre-campaign, but a lot has to do with her instincts.”

Tanden responded, “Almost no one knows better than me that her instincts can be terrible.”

Tanden and Kendall declined to comment. Neither Reines nor a lawyer for Mills responded to requests for comment.

262proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 27, 2016, 1:15 pm

Jill Stein :

Jill Stein’s Ideology Says One Thing—Her Investment Portfolio Says Another
The holier-than-thou Green Party candidate rails against Big Carbon, big banks, Big Pharma—while she holds substantial investments in them.


by Yashar Ali
10.27.16 12:25 AM ET

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/26/jill-stein-s-ideology-says-one-...

---------------------



The Ruling Class

The ruling class decide which ideas are acceptable, which scientific theories to believe, what speech is permitted.


by John Stossel | October 26, 2016

http://reason.com/archives/2016/10/26/the-ruling-class


America is often described as a society without the Old World's aristocracy. Yet we still have people who feel entitled to boss the rest of us around. The "elite" media, the political class, Hollywood and university professors think their opinions are obviously correct, so they must educate us peasants.

OK, so they don't call us "peasants" anymore. Now we are "deplorables"—conservatives or libertarians. Or Trump supporters.

The elite have a lot of influence over how we see things.

I don't like Donald Trump. I used to. I once found him refreshing and honest. Now I think he's a mean bully. I think that partly because he mocked a disabled person. I saw it on TV. He waved his arms around to mimic a New York Times reporter with a disability—but wait!

It turns out that Trump used the same gestures and tone of speech to mock Ted Cruz and a general he didn't like. It's not nice, but it doesn't appear directed at a disability.

I only discovered this when researching the media elite. Even though I'm a media junkie, I hadn't seen the other side of the story. The elite spoon-fed me their version of events.

Another reason I don't like Trump is that he supported the Iraq war—and then lied about that. Media pooh-bahs told me Trump pushed for the war years ago on The Howard Stern Show.

But then I listened to what Trump actually said.

"Are you for invading Iraq?" Stern asked.

Trump replied, "Yeah, I guess ... so." Later, on Neil Cavuto's show, Trump said, "Perhaps (Bush) shouldn't be doing it yet, and perhaps we should be waiting for the United Nations." I wouldn't call that "support"—the way NBC's debate moderator and many others have.

I was stunned by how thoroughly the media have distorted Trump's position. That's a privilege you get when you're part of the media elite: You get to steer the masses' thinking.

At the second debate, we all know that Trump walked over to Hillary Clinton's podium, as if he was "stalking Ms. Clinton like prey," said The New York Times. CNN said, "Trump looms behind Hillary Clinton at the debate."

Afterward, Clinton went on Ellen DeGeneres' show and said Trump would "literally stalk me around the stage, and I would just feel this presence behind me. I thought, 'Whoa, this is really weird.'"

But it was a lie. Watch the video. Clinton walked over to Trump's podium. Did the mainstream media tell you that? No.

The ruling class has its themes, and it sticks to them. ...

( full text at the link, above.)



------------------

The Wall Street Journal


Opinion Review & Outlook



The FBI’s Clinton Probe Gets Curiouser
New evidence of a conflict of interest and a double standard.



FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe in Washington July 20, 2016. ( Photo: Reuters )

Updated Oct. 24, 2016 7:43 p.m. ET
1543 COMMENTS

Hillary Clinton may win the election in two weeks, but the manner of her victory will bedevil her in the White House. Specifically, evidence keeps turning up suggesting that the FBI probe into her emails was influenced by political favoritism and double standards.

The latest news is the Journal’s report Monday that Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe, a longtime friend of Hillary and Bill, steered money to the campaign of the wife of a top FBI official. Political organizations under Mr. McAuliffe’s control gave more than $675,000 to the 2015 Virginia state Senate campaign of Jill McCabe, the wife of FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe. Mr. McCabe, director James Comey’s right-hand man, helped oversee the probe into whether Mrs. Clinton mishandled classified information on her server.

Some $467,500 of the money came directly from Mr. McAuliffe’s political action committee, Common Good VA, while $207,788 came from the Virginia Democratic Party, which the Governor essentially controls. The funds amounted to more than one-third of all the money Mrs. McCabe raised.

Mrs. McCabe announced her candidacy the same month (March 2015) as the news broke about Mrs. Clinton’s private email server. Mr. McCabe was running the FBI’s Washington field office at the time, and he was promoted to the No. 3 FBI slot not long after the formal FBI investigation began in July 2015.

The FBI said in a statement that none of this is an issue because Mr. McCabe wasn’t promoted to the No. 2 position until February 2016, months after his wife lost her race, and only then did he assume “for the first time, an oversight role in the investigation into Secretary Clinton’s emails.” 1

All of this asks voters to believe that Mr. McCabe as the No. 3 official at the FBI had nothing to do with the biggest, most sensitive case at that agency. This strains credulity. Before he became No. 3 at the FBI Mr. McCabe ran the bureau’s Washington, D.C. field office that provided resources to the Clinton probe. Campaign-finance records show that 98% of the McAuliffe donations to Mrs. McCabe came after the FBI launched its Clinton probe.

Director Comey, the self-styled Boy Scout, somehow didn’t think any of this would look suspicious? Add this to the list of special treatment for Mrs. Clinton: no grand jury, grants of immunity to her aides, no interview until the last minute, a special exonerating public declaration, and a pre-Labor Day dump of damaging FBI notes.



-------------------

1 :

from the F.B.I.'s website : News/ Press releases:


Washington, D.C.
FBI National Press Office
(202) 324-3691

Share on Twitter Twitter Share on Facebook Facebook Email Email
January 29, 2016

Andrew McCabe Named Deputy Director of the FBI

FBI Director James B. Comey has named Andrew McCabe as the Bureau’s new deputy director. Mr. McCabe most recently served as the FBI’s associate deputy director. As deputy director, Mr. McCabe will oversee all FBI domestic and international investigative and intelligence activities and will serve as acting director in the director’s absence.

Mr. McCabe joined the FBI in 1996. He began his career in the New York Field Office, where he focused on organized crime. Throughout his career, Mr. McCabe has held leadership positions in the Counterterrorism Division, the National Security Branch, and the Washington Field Office.

“Andy’s 19 years of experience, combined with his vision, judgment, and ability to communicate make him a perfect fit for this job,” announced Director Comey.

Mr. McCabe will assume this new role on February 1, 2016, when current Deputy Director Mark Giuliano retires from the FBI after 28 years of service.

“Mark’s wide range of operational and leadership experiences have helped us grow as an organization, and his thoughtfulness and ability to connect to people has become a benchmark for our future leaders,” said Director Comey. “I will miss his counsel and his candor very much.”





Daily Caller News Foundation

Leaked Emails: Lawyers Privately Told Clinton Campaign Hillary’s Email Scandal ‘Smacks Of Acting Above The Law’

Jonah Bennett
National Security/Foreign Policy Reporter

1:38 PM 10/13/2016


Attorneys wondered out loud in questions passed along in a 2015 bombshell email to Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign why Clinton inexplicably sent secure documents on a private email server and then further deleted documents without consulting anyone, as such a move “smacks of acting above the law.”

The email, leaked by WikiLeaks as part of its release of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta’s correspondence, dates back to June 21, 2015, and discusses in unusually frank detail the scandalous nature of Clinton’s use of a private email server.

The email contains several questions from other lawyers passed along from Erika Rottenberg, a lawyer with extensive experience in the policy and tech world with ties to the Clinton campaign.

“I know when I talk to my friends who are attorneys we are all struggling with what happened to the emails and aren’t satisfied with answers to date,” read one of the questions sent to Stephanie Hannon, chief technical officer of the Clinton campaign, and senior campaign policy adviser Ann O’Leary. “While we all know of the occasional use of personal email addresses for business, none of my friends circle can understand how it was viewed as ok/secure/appropriate to use a private server for secure documents AND why further Hillary took it upon herself to review them and delete documents without providing anyone outside her circle a chance to weigh in. It smacks of acting above the law and it smacks of the type of thing I’ve either gotten discovery sanctions for, fired people for, etc.”



263proximity1
Okt. 28, 2016, 8:21 am




Scarborough, 'Morning Joe' Panel Rip Clintons: They Keep Crossing The Line And Then Are Shocked At Investigations

1.3k Shares

Posted By Ian Schwartz
On Date October 27, 2016



... ...

Ron Fournier later joined the panel and argued with Clinton loyalist Steve Rattner on the significance of the WaPo findings and pay-for-play action including the Clinton State Department and Clinton Foundation. MSNBC's Kasie Hunt commented this is just a preview of "what comes next" under a Clinton presidency. She said it makes the American public question if they are "ready to have the Clintons back in the White House."

"This basically confirms everything Ron Fournier has been saying: follow the money," Scarborough said of the story.

"The Washington Post article is absolutely fascinating on 'Bill Clinton Inc.,'" Scarborough said at the top of Thursday's broadcast. "$66 million to him personally and they're bragging! They're bragging at the memo that they can shake down the same corporations that they're taking donation money for, that they can shake them down for $66 million for 'Bill Clinton Inc.'"

"For Bill and Hillary Clinton personally, does that confirm what you and a lot of Clinton skeptics that supported Bernie Sanders were worried about all along?" Scarborough asked guest Eddie Glaude Jr., chairman of African American studies at Princeton.

"Well, it's certainly, um, yes," Glaude Jr. answered to laughter. "It certainly confirms a deep suspicion that there's an ethical deficit that defines how they operate in the political domain, how they operate generally. They have an ethical and moral deficit."

"And they're actually bragging about being able to shake down foundation clients for Bill Clinton money. Doug Band is bragging about it. And it's not like Doug Band dreamed this up on his own, he was doing his boss's bidding," Scarborough said.

"They're bragging about using this foundation to make the Clintons hundreds of millions of dollars. Shouldn't the Attorney General for the state of New York launch an investigation? And at least shut down the foundation like they did with the Trump Foundation? Because there is so much more money involved here," Scarborough wondered.

MSNBC political correspondent Kasie Hunt weighed in on the WaPo story and what it means for Hillary Clinton's presidential candidacy.

"The second thing I'll say about it, right now, Hillary Clinton is enjoying an enormous honeymoon period," Hunt told Morning Joe. "She's really riding high. You can see it in her demeanor on the campaign trail. She's extraordinary -- she went to an Adele concert in Miami the other night. A couple weeks out from the election."

"I think what you're seeing in these stories and what your seeing in this conversation going on is a preview of what comes next in the event that she does win this election," Hunt said. "This is the conversation that Republicans in Washington will want to have over and over and over again. I think they're already digging into this material on Capitol Hill. That does pose significant challenges. Part of why we have been talking for so long on whether the American public is ready to have the Clintons back in the White House?"

Scarborough took a swing at the media for taking a break from investigating Trump and looking into the Clintons, joking someone will receive a Pulitzer for digging up the Trump portrait story.

"This is sleazy and everybody knows it's sleazy. You're trading in public service while somebody is Secretary of State," he said.

"Larger amounts of money and the world is used as opposed to Palm Beach and a flag," co-host Mika Brzezinski said, referencing Trump.

"You're shaking down the world for $66 million instead of a Rolex watch or a life-size portrait," Scarborough said, also referencing Trump. "Somebody is going to win a Pulitzer prize for finding a life-sized portrait of Donald Trump that he paid money for with the family foundation. We're talking about $66 million, maybe a $100 million."

"I call that more than ethically challenged," Brzezinski chimed in.

Brzezinski added this is "perplexing" to her father Zbigniew.

"The Clintons and the foundation bearing their name are facing fresh scrutiny over extremely blurred lines between the organization the family's multi-million dollar fortune," MSNBC's Brzezinski said about a new Washington Post expose on the Clinton Foundation. "The revelation stems from the latest release of e-mails by WikiLeaks, allegedly hacked from the personal account of Hillary Clinton's campaign manager John Podesta."

"A purported 2011 memo from longtime aide to former President Bill Clinton Doug Band lays out extensive fundraising efforts by him and his company Teneo on behalf of the Clinton Foundation and the Clintons personally," Brzezinski reported.

Brzezinski then read from the Washington Post story she cited from.

Later in the show in the 7am hour, when Fournier joined the panel, Scarborough responded to the Clinton complaint of "poor pitiful me" when they are under investigation. Scarborough said the Clintons habitually participate in activity "that crosses the line" and brings cause for an investigation.

"When I read these e-mails that were stolen, these hacked e-mails in the Podesta cache you see people like John Podesta and Neera Tanden basically echoing my columns the last 18 months," Forunier observed. "Because it was those kinds of people, people close to the Clintons who knew what they were doing, was undermining the public's trust in government, which is important to Democrats, and was awfully close if not actually quid-pro-quo and at the very least it undermined her moral authority to take on Republicans."

"And that's exactly how this has played out," Fournier declared. "Her trust numbers have collapsed as predicted by her own people and we now see that Doug Band put in writing in that memo the worst fears of the Clinton folks. Not Ron Fournier, but the Clinton folks who for months now have begged the Clintons to come clean."


Fournier said the State Department-Clinton Foundation relationship was "unethical" and "inappropriate," while Steve Rattner called it "an appearance problem."

"It's not okay, but it's legal," Rattner also said.

"What we see is a moral and ethical deficit, and what does that say about America?" Fournier said about the Clintons' tentacle in politics.

"Here we are, today's October 27th, 2016, and we're just getting this information out today. What are we going to learn tomorrow? What are we going to learn next week? And the Clintons always say, 'Oh, we have been so investigated, there's a vast right-wing conspiracy,' and they keep doing stuff that crosses the line. They keep doing stuff that requires investigations and then they are shocked that they are being investigated and it's poor, poor pitiful me in the words of Linda Ronstadt. Why is everybody always picking on me? That's because they just can't help themselves. And that is why Bernie supporters and other Democrats just have Clinton fatigue and now the whole country signs up for it for another four years," Scarborough described the situation.



http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/27/scarborough_morning_joe_panel_...

264artturnerjr
Okt. 28, 2016, 9:01 am

>262 proximity1:

The Daily Beast is owned by IAC*. Chelsea Clinton is on IAC's board of directors, so I'd take their coverage of the candidates in the current presidential election with a grain of salt.

>263 proximity1:

I had that very show on at work yesterday morning. Interesting stuff.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAC_(company)

265proximity1
Okt. 28, 2016, 12:46 pm


>264 artturnerjr:

Did they lie about the data's source?: Stein's own releases of tax filings?

Which allegations do you dispute?

My guess: none of them.

266proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 29, 2016, 3:15 am

>215 proximity1:

Friday, 28 October 2016

FBI Director Comey informs House Republican chairman by letter that recent e-mails found during a Bureau investigation of former congressman Anthony Weiner have led him to re-open the investigation of HRC's official use of an unauthorized home e-mail server.

267proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 29, 2016, 9:42 am

" Welcome aboard American Airlines flight 383 bound for Miami. This is your Captain, Hillary Clinton. We have beautiful weather today all the way to Miami. We're cleared for take-off so, everyone please sit back and enjoy the flight. Flight attendants, cross-check doors and prepare for take-off. "

-------------



News | Columnists | John Kass

Democrats should ask Hillary Clinton to step aside
Hillary Clinton



Hillary Clinton answers questions about the FBI reopening a probe into her use of a private email server on Oct. 28, 2016. (Jewel Samad / Getty-AFP)

by John Kass



Has America become so numb by the decades of lies and cynicism oozing from Clinton Inc. that it could elect Hillary Clinton as president, even after Friday's FBI announcement that it had reopened an investigation of her emails while secretary of state?

We'll find out in a little more than a week.

It's obvious the American political system is breaking down. It's been crumbling for some time now, and the establishment elite know it and they're properly frightened. Donald Trump, the vulgarian at their gates, is a symptom, not a cause. Hillary Clinton and husband Bill are both cause and effect.

FBI director James Comey's announcement about the renewed Clinton email investigation is the bombshell in the presidential campaign. That he announced this so close to Election Day should tell every thinking person that what the FBI is looking at is extremely serious.

This can't be about pervert Anthony Weiner and his reported desire for a teenage girl. But it can be about the laptop of Weiner's wife, Clinton aide Huma Abedin, and emails between her and Hillary. It comes after the FBI investigation in which Comey concluded Clinton had lied and been "reckless" with national secrets, but said he could not recommend prosecution.

So what should the Democrats do now?

If ruling Democrats hold themselves to the high moral standards they impose on the people they govern, they would follow a simple process:

They would demand that Mrs. Clinton step down, immediately, and let her vice presidential nominee, Sen. Tim Kaine of Virginia, stand in her place.

Democrats should say, honestly, that with a new criminal investigation going on into events around her home-brew email server from the time she was secretary of state, having Clinton anywhere near the White House is just not a good idea.

Since Oct. 7, WikiLeaks has released 35,000 emails hacked from Clinton campaign boss John Podesta. Now WikiLeaks, no longer a neutral player but an active anti-Clinton agency, plans to release another 15,000 emails.

What if she is elected? Think of a nation suffering a bad economy and continuing chaos in the Middle East, and now also facing a criminal investigation of a president. Add to that congressional investigations and a public vision of Clinton as a Nixonian figure wandering the halls, wringing her hands.

FBI's Comey acted out of 'obligation' to lawmakers, fear of leak to media
FBI's Comey acted out of 'obligation' to lawmakers, fear of leak to media

The best thing would be for Democrats to ask her to step down now. It would be the most responsible thing to do, if the nation were more important to them than power. And the American news media — fairly or not firmly identified in the public mind as Mrs. Clinton's political action committee — should begin demanding it.

But what will Hillary do?

She'll stick and ride this out and turn her anger toward Comey. For Hillary and Bill Clinton, it has always been about power, about the Clinton Restoration and protecting fortunes already made by selling nothing but political influence.

She'll remind the nation that she's a woman and that Donald Trump said terrible things about women. If there is another notorious Trump video to be leaked, the Clintons should probably leak it now. Then her allies in media can talk about misogyny and sexual politics and the headlines can be all about Trump as the boor he is and Hillary as champion of female victims, which she has never been.

Remember that Bill Clinton leveraged the "Year of the Woman." Then he preyed on women in the White House and Hillary protected him. But the political left — most particularly the women of the left — defended him because he promised to protect abortion rights and their other agendas.

If you take a step back from tribal politics, you'll see that Mrs. Clinton has clearly disqualified herself from ever coming near classified information again. If she were a young person straight out of grad school hoping to land a government job, Hillary Clinton would be laughed out of Washington with her record. She'd never be hired.

As secretary of state she kept classified documents on the home-brew server in her basement, which is against the law. She lied about it to the American people. She couldn't remember details dozens of times when questioned by the FBI. Her aides destroyed evidence by BleachBit and hammers. Her husband, Bill, met secretly on an airport tarmac with Attorney General Loretta Lynch for about a half-hour, and all they said they talked about was golf and the grandkids.

And there was no prosecution of Hillary.

That isn't merely wrong and unethical. It is poisonous.

And during this presidential campaign, Americans were confronted with a two-tiered system of federal justice: one for standards for the Clintons and one for the peasants.

I've always figured that, as secretary of state, Clinton kept her home-brew email server — from which foreign intelligence agencies could hack top secret information — so she could shield the influence peddling that helped make the Clintons several fortunes.

The Clintons weren't skilled merchants. They weren't traders or manufacturers. The Clintons never produced anything tangible. They had no science, patents or devices to make them millions upon millions of dollars.

All they had to sell, really, was influence. And they used our federal government to leverage it.

If a presidential election is as much about the people as it is about the candidates, then we'll learn plenty about ourselves in the coming days, won't we?

Listen to the Chicago Way podcast with John Kass and Jeff Carlin. Guests are Tribune cartoonist Scott Stantis and former White House Chief of Staff William Daley: www.chicagotribune.com/kasspodcast.

jskass@chicagotribune.com
Twitter@John_Kass
Copyright © 2016, Chicago Tribune


268lriley
Okt. 29, 2016, 8:51 am

#265---and Stein's claim that it's part of a 401K retirement package. Well if she were looking for advice I'd tell her to get out of stocks but be that as it may but that has more to do with it'll crash sooner or later again. The Daily Beast was doing hit jobs on Sanders as well--so then they were full of shit and now they're not? Using Chelsea Clinton's attack dog to stump for Trump?--is pretty much what I see you doing here.

Anyway more and more emails--Anthony Weiner in the middle of it now (and the FBI again) and his solicitations of 15 year old girls as well. And still Trump is the worst candidate on the ballot. Worse than Stein--worse than Johnson--even worse than Clinton.

269proximity1
Okt. 29, 2016, 9:46 am


>268 lriley:

Same question to you:

Which allegations do you dispute?

My guess? : none of them.

270lriley
Okt. 29, 2016, 1:14 pm

#269--if you want allegations I'll ask you about Trump and his university. He's got a whole ton of nefarious shit in his background too. Someone having a 401K plan is hardly something to piss about.

271proximity1
Okt. 30, 2016, 2:08 am


(27O)

Thank you for making my point.

This is what I mean when I refer to rank failures to reason things through effectively. You neither dispute the facts as related about Stein's investments nor recognize the difference when it comes to her case--thus, you throw up in reply that《Trump is worse! 》and fail to see why this is beside the point.


272lriley
Okt. 30, 2016, 10:00 am

#271--I'm not making a point for you---you're creating one out of thin air. Millions of Americans have 401k retirement plans--and the majority of those millions probably don't follow more than casually what exactly they're invested into. Chelsea and the Daily Beast make up this crap like a personal retirement fund somehow equates the same to all the manipulation of electoral law concerning campaign cash and you eat it up. They did the same to the Sanders campaign--saying they took money from corporations too. Some schmuck way down the corporation totem pole of a oil/gas company donates a $100 to Bernie--and 'you see, he takes corporation cash too'. You need to wake up.

And you don't know a fucking thing about Stein. You've done no analysis at all on her or her campaign--to you she's just someone who might siphon a few more Bernie supporters away from voting for Trump so you just make up this shit about her being a hypocrite and not trustworthy. You don't seem to critique at all the fuck you're going to vote for though---all the sleazy deals he's been involved in. You can find dirt everywhere else even when there really isn't any.

You should get this through your head--the percentage of Bernie supporters now supporting Trump is pretty damn fucking small. Most of them will vote for Hillary in November. It's not hard to figure out. Most Bernie supporters at least leaned towards left positions. Hillary is not there but Trump is even farther away than Hillary is.

273proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 30, 2016, 10:24 am

>272 lriley:

" To learn more about the funds Stein has invested in, The Daily Beast did not have to engage in significant research by any definition. A simple Google search of the name of each of the funds she has invested in returned publicly available marketing documents produced by the investment managers that showed where these funds were investing their capital.

"Mutual funds often share the top 10 or top 25 largest holdings in their portfolio and we relied only on this data to determine the composition of these funds.
Stein’s controversial investments include:

Big Carbon. On Oct. 26, 2015, Stein’s campaign sent out a statement calling for Exxon to get the death penalty for its “climate-change fraud.” (it should be noted that Stein has called for the abolition of the death penalty for human beings). She has also repeatedly called for public pension funds to divest from companies in the fossil-fuel industry.

Yet Stein has invested $995,011 to $2.2 million in funds such as the Vanguard 500 fund that maintain significant stakes in Exxon and other energy companies like Chevron, Duke Energy, Conoco Phillips, and Toho Gas, a Japanese company that engages in the sale of natural gas, tar, and coke, a fuel made from coal.

" Stein has invested roughly $1.2 to $2.65 million in funds like the TIAA-CREF Equity Index that have big stakes in the financial-services industry. Holdings in these funds include big banks like JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, and Deutsche Bank as major parts of their investment portfolios. Five of the funds that Stein invests in maintain large positions in Wells Fargo, which has come under fire recently amid charges that its employees were pressured to open up fraudulent new accounts for clients.

One of the funds Stein has invested in maintains a significant position in Goldman Sachs bonds. Stein once referred to Goldman Sachs as Hillary Clinton’s best friend. She has also invested in a fund that contains significant investments in mortgage-backed securities, including subprime mortgage-backed securities, and mortgage-backed derivatives. These financial instruments played a significant role in the financial crisis of 2008.

Big Pharma. Stein has been a stalwart opponent of what she sees as the corrupt influence of the pharmaceutical industry. She posted a tweet that said:

“I believe that healthcare should serve people not the interests of pharmaceutical and insurance companies, unlike the DNC or Hillary.”

In one of the handful of direct stock investments Stein holds, she listed between $50,001 and $100,000 in the pharmaceutical giant Merck, which paid a record fine for overbilling Medicaid. She has also invested $1,130,010 to $2,400,000 in funds that maintain significant stakes in Pfizer, Novartis, Johnson & Johnson, and Allergan.

Big Tobacco. Investing in the tobacco industry or accepting contributions from the tobacco industry is often seen as a third rail in progressive politics. But Stein has between $500,004 to $1,100,000 invested in funds that maintain significant stakes in Phillip Morris International, the tobacco giant that manufactures Marlboro cigarettes and 17 other tobacco brands.

Defense contractors/drones. Stein has made her opposition to the use of drones by the U.S. military a key message in her campaign. She said, “Increased use of drone warfare under Obama is killing many innocent civilians, over 90 percent of deaths were unintended targets in Afghanistan,” and she has referred to the drone program as a “fabulous recruitment tool for terrorists.”

Yet she has between $50,001-$100,000 invested in a fund that has Raytheon Corp. as its fourth largest holding, a $38 million investment. Raytheon, which is the fourth largest defense contractor in the world and derives 90 percent of its revenue from military contracts, manufactures drone systems, which Stein has committed to ending, and significant missile systems.

In response to detailed questions from The Daily Beast, Stein’s campaign issued a four-point statement of nearly 500 words. “Like many Americans who hold retirement accounts, pension funds, or who invest in the American economy,” the statement begins, “my finances are largely held in index funds or mutual funds over which I have no control in management or decision-making. Sadly, most of these broad investments are as compromised as the American economy—degraded as it is by the fossil-fuel, defense and finance industries.”

While it’s true that Stein would not have control over the investments of the funds she invested in, she did have a choice of whether to invest in these funds to begin with. In the past, political candidates, in an effort to avoid a conflict of interest or have their judgment called into question, have invested their entire portfolios in U.S. Treasuries, cash/cash equivalents, in socially responsible index funds, or clean-energy funds. In her statement, Stein said that she has “explored” more socially responsible funds but “found their investments in fracking and large-scale biofuels not much better than the non-green funds. I have not yet found the mutual funds that represent my goals of advancing the cause of people, planet, and peace.” •••

274RickHarsch
Okt. 30, 2016, 10:24 am

>274 RickHarsch: Proximity1: your words are fucking cataracts of dull polluted washwater--no one in their right mind would wade through them to challenge some uninteresting elusive nugget like which candidate farts in which church. Your fucking posts are so fucking boring you ought to be grateful to get any response at all and not try to engage people who somehow maintain their senses of perspective and politely respond--polite meaning not call your bullshit a thing of turds.

275proximity1
Bearbeitet: Okt. 31, 2016, 10:07 am



There has barely been time for opinion-surveys to reflect the impact on prospective voters of Friday's news of FBI Director James Comey's re-opening of the enquiry into H Clinton's home e-mail server's use for official State Dept business. The polled spread between Clinton and Trump had already been narrowing significantly. That trend should now strengthen.

This comes just as it begins to sink in to public consciousness that the related and still-emerging scandal of the Clinton Foundation's deep involvement in seeking lucrative for-profit business relationships for the direct and primary benefit of Bill Clinton-- a.k.a. "Bill Clinton Inc.,"--is much more serious than it may have seemed at first :

( Douglas Band writing to John Podesta :


"Need get this asap to them although I'm sure cvc Chelsea Clinton won't believe it to be true bc she doesn't want to Even though the facts speak for themselves."

" John, I would appreciate your feedback and any suggestions I'm also starting to worry that if this story gets out, we are screwed. Dk Declan Kelly and I built a business. 65 people work for us who have wives and husbands and kids, they all depend on us. Our business has almost nothing to do with the clintons, the foundation or cgi in any way. The chairman of ubs could care a less about cgi. Our fund clients who we do restructuring and m and a advising the same just as bhp nor tivo do. These are real companies who we provide real advice to through very serious people. Comm head for goldman, dep press secretary to bloomberg, former head of banking, and his team, from morgan stanley for asia and latin am."

"I realize it is difficult to confront and reason with her but this could go to far and then we all will have a real serious set of other problems. I don't deserve this from her and deserve a tad more respect or at least a direct dialogue for me to explain these things. She is acting like a spoiled brat kid who has nothing else to do but create issues to justify what she's doing because she, as she has said, hasn't found her way and has a lack of focus in her life. I realize she will be off of this soon but if it doesn't come soon enough..."

"Four years later, the story is out, not thanks to Chelsea Clinton as Doug Band was concerned, but due to a hack of John Podesta's email account."


-----------------
(emphasis added, of course.)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-30/doug-band-john-podesta-if-story-gets-ou...



As these facts coalesce, their significance shall sharpen in clarity. With the internet, these things move much more quickly than was the case in 1974 when Watergate was unraveling.

Mrs Clinton won't have two years to spend waiting for her affair to fall apart. By July, she'll be eyeball-deep in multiple interrelated scandals mainly of her and her husband's own making.

276proximity1
Nov. 2, 2016, 11:26 am





The Guardian
US elections 2016
Opinion

Forget the FBI cache; the Podesta emails show how America is run

by Thomas Frank

WikiLeaks’ dump of messages to and from Clinton’s campaign chief offer an unprecedented view into the workings of the elite, and how it looks after itself

The Hillary Clinton email controversy explained: what we know so far

Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton arrives on her campaign plane at Martha’s Vineyard Airport on 20 August, 2016.
Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton arrives on her campaign plane at Martha’s Vineyard Airport on 20 August 2016. Photograph: Carolyn Kaster/AP

Monday 31 October 2016 11.00 GMT
Last modified on Tuesday 1 November 2016 16.19 GMT

Comments
783


The emails currently roiling the US presidential campaign are part of some unknown digital collection amassed by the troublesome Anthony Weiner, but if your purpose is to understand the clique of people who dominate Washington today, the emails that really matter are the ones being slowly released by WikiLeaks from the hacked account of Hillary Clinton’s campaign chair John Podesta. They are last week’s scandal in a year running over with scandals, but in truth their significance goes far beyond mere scandal: they are a window into the soul of the Democratic party and into the dreams and thoughts of the class to whom the party answers.

The class to which I refer is not rising in angry protest; they are by and large pretty satisfied, pretty contented. Nobody takes road trips to exotic West Virginia to see what the members of this class looks like or how they live; on the contrary, they are the ones for whom such stories are written. This bunch doesn’t have to make do with a comb-over TV mountebank for a leader; for this class, the choices are always pretty good, and this year they happen to be excellent.

They are the comfortable and well-educated mainstay of our modern Democratic party. They are also the grandees of our national media; the architects of our software; the designers of our streets; the high officials of our banking system; the authors of just about every plan to fix social security or fine-tune the Middle East with precision droning. They are, they think, not a class at all but rather the enlightened ones, the people who must be answered to but who need never explain themselves.

Let us turn the magnifying glass on them for a change, by sorting through the hacked personal emails of John Podesta, who has been a Washington power broker for decades. I admit that I feel uncomfortable digging through this hoard; stealing someone’s email is a crime, after all, and it is outrageous that people’s personal information has been exposed, since WikiLeaks doesn’t seem to have redacted the emails in any way. There is also the issue of authenticity to contend with: we don’t know absolutely and for sure that these emails were not tampered with by whoever stole them from John Podesta. The supposed authors of the messages are refusing to confirm or deny their authenticity, and though they seem to be real, there is a small possibility they aren’t.

With all that taken into consideration, I think the WikiLeaks releases furnish us with an opportunity to observe the upper reaches of the American status hierarchy in all its righteousness and majesty.

The dramatis personae of the liberal class are all present in this amazing body of work: financial innovators. High-achieving colleagues attempting to get jobs for their high-achieving children. Foundation executives doing fine and noble things. Prizes, of course, and high academic achievement.

Certain industries loom large and virtuous here. Hillary’s ingratiating speeches to Wall Street are well known of course, but what is remarkable is that, in the party of Jackson and Bryan and Roosevelt, smiling financiers now seem to stand on every corner, constantly proffering advice about this and that. In one now-famous email chain, for example, the reader can watch current US trade representative Michael Froman, writing from a Citibank email address in 2008, appear to name President Obama’s cabinet even before the great hope-and-change election was decided (incidentally, an important clue to understanding why that greatest of zombie banks was never put out of its misery).

The far-sighted innovators of Silicon Valley are also here in force, interacting all the time with the leaders of the party of the people. We watch as Podesta appears to email Sheryl Sandberg. He makes plans to visit Mark Zuckerberg (who, according to one missive, wants to “learn more about next steps for his philanthropy and social action”). Podesta exchanges emails with an entrepreneur about an ugly race now unfolding for Silicon Valley’s seat in Congress; this man, in turn, appears to forward to Podesta the remarks of yet another Silicon Valley grandee, who complains that one of the Democratic combatants in that fight was criticizing billionaires who give to Democrats. Specifically, the miscreant Dem in question was said to be:

“… spinning (and attacking) donors who have supported Democrats. John Arnold and Marc Leder have both given to Cory Booker, Joe Kennedy, and others. He is also attacking every billionaire that donates to Congressional candidate Ro Khanna, many whom support other Democrats as well.”

Attacking billionaires! In the year 2015! It was, one of the correspondents appears to write, “madness and political malpractice of the party to allow this to continue”.

There are wonderful things to be found in this treasure trove when you search the gilded words “Davos” or “Tahoe”. But it is when you search “Vineyard” on the WikiLeaks dump that you realize these people truly inhabit a different world from the rest of us. By “vineyard”, of course, they mean Martha’s Vineyard, the ritzy vacation resort island off the coast of Massachusetts where presidents Clinton and Obama spent most of their summer vacations. The Vineyard is a place for the very, very rich to unwind, yes, but as we learn from these emails, it is also a place of high idealism; a land of enlightened liberal commitment far beyond anything ordinary citizens can ever achieve.

Consider, for example, the 2015 email from a foundation executive to a retired mortgage banker (who then seems to have forwarded the note on to Podesta, and thus into history) expressing concern that “Hillary’s image is being torn apart in the media and there’s not enough effective push back”. The public eavesdrops as yet another financier invites Podesta to a dinner featuring “food produced exclusively by the island’s farmers and fishermen which will be matched with specially selected wines”. We learn how a Hillary campaign aide recommended that a policy statement appear on a certain day so that “It wont get in the way of any other news we are trying to make – but far enough ahead of Hamptons and Vineyard money events”. We even read the pleadings of a man who wants to be invited to a state dinner at the White House and who offers, as one of several exhibits in his favor, the fact that he “joined the DSCC Majority Trust in Martha’s Vineyard (contributing over $32,400 to Democratic senators) in July 2014”.
How does the US electoral college work?

(Hilariously, in another email chain, the Clinton team appears to scheme to “hit” Bernie Sanders for attending “DSCC retreats on Martha’s Vineyard with lobbyists”.)

Then there is the apparent nepotism, the dozens if not hundreds of mundane emails in which petitioners for this or that plum Washington job or high-profile academic appointment politely appeal to Podesta – the ward-heeler of the meritocratic elite – for a solicitous word whispered in the ear of a powerful crony.

This genre of Podesta email, in which people try to arrange jobs for themselves or their kids, points us toward the most fundamental thing we know about the people at the top of this class: their loyalty to one another and the way it overrides everything else. Of course Hillary Clinton staffed her state department with investment bankers and then did speaking engagements for investment banks as soon as she was done at the state department. Of course she appears to think that any kind of bank reform should “come from the industry itself”. And of course no elite bankers were ever prosecuted by the Obama administration. Read these emails and you understand, with a start, that the people at the top tier of American life all know each other. They are all engaged in promoting one another’s careers, constantly.

Everything blurs into everything else in this world. The state department, the banks, Silicon Valley, the nonprofits, the “Global CEO Advisory Firm” that appears to have solicited donations for the Clinton Foundation. Executives here go from foundation to government to thinktank to startup. There are honors. Venture capital. Foundation grants. Endowed chairs. Advanced degrees. For them the door revolves. The friends all succeed. They break every boundary.

But the One Big Boundary remains. Yes, it’s all supposed to be a meritocracy. But if you aren’t part of this happy, prosperous in-group – if you don’t have John Podesta’s email address – you’re out.

© 2016 Guardian News and Media Limited or its affiliated companies. All rights reserved.



277Tid
Nov. 2, 2016, 2:17 pm

As an uncomprehending Brit, who's been away from LT for at least 2 years and therefore out of the loop of your current thinking ...

we see the scandals surrounding Hillary Clinton and we think that any competent or even average Republican, would probably therefore trounce her at the polls.

But then we look at the unbelievable monstrosity that is Donald Trump, whose pending possible trial for child rape is just the latest straw on the US camel's back, and we ask ourselves "WHY? Why do so many people, knowing what they know about him, commit nevertheless to voting for him? Hillary Clinton could be a serial killer and still look better in comparison."

Clinton may be 'Washington elite' and Americans may be learning to hate that elite, but for heaven's sake ... TRUMP??? We look on in horror and genuine fear.

We don't understand why some people hate Hillary so much that they would vote for a literal nightmare in her place. We just don't understand.

278RickHarsch
Nov. 2, 2016, 2:56 pm

And of course the Trump University scam goes before a court starting in late November.

There's also more to the Clinton hate than can be found by adding up her miscues. There is no question in my mind that it's misogyny. Any man with the exact record would be 30 points up in the polls.

279davidgn
Bearbeitet: Nov. 2, 2016, 5:28 pm

>278 RickHarsch: Which is why the refuseniks on the left (such as myself) are voting for Stein, I suppose?

To reduce the matter to its bare essence, as I see it:
A vote for Clinton is a vote for the neo-cons and mindless war -- an administration that whole-heartedly embraces the war-making agendas that the Obama administration has been obstructing or passive-aggressively slow-walking -- and an endorsement of jaw-dropping manipulative chutzpah and criminal impunity.
A vote for Trump is a vote for venality, grifterism, protofascistic pseudopopulism, and moral incontinence.
A vote for Johnson is a vote for cluelessness and corporate pandering. At best.
A vote for McMullin is a vote for... I dunno. Mormonism, I guess. Haven't really looked at the fellow. (Oh, yeah: also for the CIA)
A vote for Stein is a vote for the hope of a saner political landscape in the future.

From where I stand, I don't see where the misogyny comes into it. It may for some, but those folks already compose Trump's base anyhow.
Frankly: Clinton and Trump both terrify me in different ways. Clinton -- particularly an embattled Clinton desperate to distract from a multitude of well-founded investigations and hearings, and therefore unduly receptive to the most feverish of her neocon constituents -- seems relatively the more likely candidate to get us all killed.

280RickHarsch
Bearbeitet: Nov. 2, 2016, 5:35 pm

>279 davidgn: I think you're wrong about the misogyny--in fact, I think it's pretty obvious, and of course I am speaking of Trump/Clinton. Of course anyone who understands what the neocon imperium is (or allows the full extent of the horror to sink in) won't vote for Clinton, but I don't think it's a very large percentage that goes that distance, not just left, but that deep. Misogyny is not owned by the Republicans; it's a deeply embedded US tradition, just like having two candidates is. Of course if you are not misogynist and despise, for instance, drones, you'll not mind voting for Stein--you know that the main drift of foreign policy is unlikely to be much different regardless of who wins (of the two). If I could bring myself to vote, though, I would vote for Clinton because of Planned Parenthood: on the issue of reproductive rights there may actually be a major difference. Otherwise, no. But your vote for Stein I would guess rises from the same well as my 36 year boycott of the elections.

eta of the two

281krazy4katz
Bearbeitet: Nov. 2, 2016, 8:19 pm

The Green Party might be OK if I had any idea whether Dr. Stein knows how to run a government. I don't. Also there was this anti-vaccination thing a while ago but I don't know whether that was/is true.

With regard to HRC, I think mysogyny definitely plays a role. She is no longer beautiful but used to be (implied right here in this lovely Pro and Con group by a poster), she is "secretive" and lacks a sense of humor.

In my own state of North Carolina, our dear Republican Senator Burr said 2 detestable things in 2 days!
1. He said people with guns should stick a bullseye on Hillary (he apologized but hey! is that locker-room talk too?!);
2. He said he personally would "stonewall" any nominations to the Supreme Court put forth by Hillary Clinton if she wins.

Talk about a lack of respect for democracy, the rule of law and simple human decency!!

I understand that people will vote for the Green Party or other parties as protest votes and votes of conscience — I have done that myself — but when the stakes are this high it is a dangerous strategy. And if we have a Republican Congress, we need someone who can work with at least some of them. Practical politics becomes important and yes, Hillary is practical. Otherwise we have Senators like Richard Burr promising gridlock, which is what got us Trump and this unholy mess in the first place.

282lriley
Nov. 2, 2016, 10:24 pm

#281--FWIW Hillary has never governed anything. She was a Senator from NYS---being a Senator is not governing. If you want governing that is the libertarian team of Johnson and Weld both ex-governors. Johnson in New Mexico and Weld in Massachusetts.

As for your last point. I'm aware of what the stakes are in NYS already. Hillary is pretty much a 99%+ certainty to win the electoral votes from NYS. And if somehow she managed to lose NYS she'd be losing everywhere. So no voting for the Green Party as a NYS resident is not to going make any difference in the electoral college vote from NYS. Though if I was a resident of Florida or Pennsylvania or North Carolina I'd still vote for Stein. I prefer voting for someone I actually like. Others have to come to their own conclusions about these things. I'm not going to be railroaded into voting for someone I don't like just because somebody even worse might win. IMO that's a pretty cynical strategy and it only continues to put the same clowns back in power.

283davidgn
Bearbeitet: Nov. 2, 2016, 10:34 pm

>282 lriley:

In addition, we now have proof that the Clinton campaign actively worked to put the electorate in the position of "Clinton or the Inferno."

See the section: "Plans to Make Republicans Look Unpalatable & Elevate Trump"
http://heavy.com/news/2016/10/wikileaks-podesta-emails-guide-list-of-most-damagi...

I don't respond well to blackmail.

284StormRaven
Nov. 3, 2016, 12:32 am

The Green Party might be OK if I had any idea whether Dr. Stein knows how to run a government. I don't.

Oh, it is pretty clear that she doesn't, given that she has said several things about what she would do as President that reveal she has no idea how the government actually functions.

285proximity1
Nov. 3, 2016, 2:27 am

>277 Tid:

I don't think I can explain myself so that you're able to understand and so my advice is to either watch and enjoy the spectacle of US American political idiocy or never mind about it.

British politics is quite enough of a mess to keep any observer occupied.

The US & UK social and political circumstances are really not fundamentally different. Thomas Frank's article, just above, could just as well have been written about British society and politics.



..........

286Tid
Nov. 3, 2016, 6:04 am

>285 proximity1:

I agree wholeheartedly that British politics is a mess - that's why the prospect of Brexit+Trump makes me literally terrified. I can't simply watch dispassionately.

Let me tell you a dream I had a few months ago, possibly the most lucid dream I've ever had? :-

Trump is elected President, and decides to declare nuclear war on some hapless Muslim state in the Middle East. The US Army fires off the missiles but have secretly disarmed the warheads, so no nukes. That same evening, US Special Ops invades the White House and deposes Trump and his VP. They then go on TV and apologise to the American people for this "necessary action"; they tell everyone that domestic affairs will be conducted solely by the Congress and Senate as per immediate effect, but foreign policy will be under the control of the Armed Forces on a temporary basis until a new President and VP can be elected asap.

Believe me, we in Britain lose sleep over the prospect of world safety if Trump gets to power.

287proximity1
Bearbeitet: Nov. 3, 2016, 6:54 am

>286 Tid:

You actually dreamt this?

Re : "Muslim state in the Middle East. The US Army fires off the missiles but have secretly disarmed the warheads, so no nukes. That same evening, US Special Ops invades the White House and deposes Trump and his VP."

Not at all a likely scenario. If the warheads weren't to be armed--ie deliberately rendered inoperable--there'd be no sense in a launch of them. Might as well depose Trump prior to any such launch. Your dream also failed to reckon on a reply from Putin in the minutes following this dream's missile-launch.

Things just wouldn't happen that way. There are _legal_ means to remove a demented president. No need for the SF's.

I don't know how to situate you on a political spectrum.

So I'm tempted to ask :

Corbyn vs. Owen Smith? Or one of them versus any Tory candidate : Which did or should you prefer? Also, what's your postcode? In parts of Britain today, that's an indicator of one's likely political orientation.

I'm almost wholeheartedly a Corbyn supporter.

You ought to worry more about the Clintons getting back in the White House.

-----------

Though British (as well as a US citizen) by birth, I don't get to vote--too long ex-Patria. But had I been allowed, I'd have voted "Brexit" then, now and on any future occasion.

I preferred Sanders in the US primaries. But he never had a fair shot at the nomination. The Clintons saw to that.

288Tid
Bearbeitet: Nov. 3, 2016, 8:08 am

Fair questions (and yes, it was an actual dream!)

I'd say I'm pro-Corbyn, but I do worry about his ability to lead rather than merely inspire. Owen Smith is a complete waste of time, but I'd vote for him before a Tory, but on the other hand might vote LibDem or Green in those circumstances. I live in the only "red" constituency of the SW, surrounded by a sea of Tories (used to be a mix of blue and yellow before the collapse of the Liberal Democrats).

I'd never ever vote for a Tory. You'd have to have the equivalent of Trump leading EVERY OTHER party (including the Lib Dems? Greens? never going to happen...) before I'd do that.

I'm still not sure why I should worry so much about the Clintons. Was Bill - Lewisnsky aside - that bad?

As for Brexit, that's an economic disaster just waiting in the wings. Sure, there's lots wrong with the EU but it CAN be reformed, and we got so much benefit from the single market anyway. And only 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit so it hardly counts as a mandate anyway. Why would you have voted for Brexit, out of interest?

289proximity1
Bearbeitet: Nov. 3, 2016, 9:16 am

I am truly sick of supposedly intelligent people who write such stuff as this :

-------------------
The Opinion Pages | Campaign Stops

Trump Is an Existential Threat
Charles M. Blow

Charles M. Blow | NOV. 3, 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/03/opinion/campaign-stops/trump-is-an-existential...



While Hillary Clinton still maintains a lead in the polls and a built-in advantage on the electoral map, recent polls suggest that Donald Trump is closing the gap. There are now plausible — however improbable — electoral map routes to victory for him.

I leave it to others to make predictions about how all this will play out, but I feel that I must say again, and until the last minute and with my last breath: America, are you (expletive) kidding?!

I simply cannot wrap my head around how others with level heads and sound minds can even consider Trump for president of this country and leader of the free world. The logic simply escapes me.

I try to view it through the lens of economic anxiety, diminished economic mobility and global pressure. It all seems understandable, but then I’m reminded of Donald Trump, a billionaire whose businesses have on more than one occasion gone bankrupt, who stiffed contractors, who outsources the making of many of his products and who brags about not paying federal income taxes. All of which brings me back to: Are you kidding me?

I try to view it through a purely ideological lens in which people simply tend to vote for the party nominee. It makes sense, but then I’m reminded of Donald Trump, a man who isn’t really an ideologue but a demagogue interested only in self-aggrandizement. And again I return to: You’re kidding, right?

... ...


---------------------

No, you FUCKING MORON, he's NOT!

290proximity1
Bearbeitet: Nov. 3, 2016, 9:24 am

P:S: Chicago Cubs win the World Series for the first time in 108 years.



Go figure.

291barney67
Nov. 3, 2016, 8:11 pm

>277 Tid: It's always interesting to hear a foreigner comment on American politics. Maybe not interesting. Predictable.

Americans are as wedded to their party affiliations as any country's voter. One of the hardest habits to change is one's party because it often gets to the foundations of one's beliefs and values. It's what people today have instead of religion. So voters on the left and right are both guilty of voting for their man or woman, no matter who it is, so long as their party wins. It's nothing to brag about, but it's not all that surprising.

For a foreigner to say "Hillary Clinton could be a serial killer and still look better in comparison" to Trump is simply a reminder that the foreign press is just as left-wing as the American press, that truth is dangerous and hard to come by, and that impartiality and clear, disinterested judgment are as rare elsewhere as they are here. I hate Trump and I'm not voting for him. But I've analyzed the whole thing and it's not nearly as one-sided as you think.

For American news, I suggest the Wall Street Journal. For a book on how to read the news, I suggest The News by Alain de Botton.

Whatever incredulity Europeans feel about our election can be answered if they spend some time looking in the mirror rather than down their noses at us.

292krazy4katz
Nov. 3, 2016, 8:17 pm

>289 proximity1: Well, perhaps he is not an existential threat, although he does keep threatening to bomb places. However he is obviously only interested in self-aggrandizement. He hasn't done a single thing that benefited anyone but himself. Oh, yes, he did create jobs and sometimes paid people for them. Right.

Not to mention that he has no experience that would qualify him to be president even if he was a half-way nice guy. Oh yes, and there's the temperament thing...

293theoria
Bearbeitet: Nov. 3, 2016, 10:24 pm

It's nice to see the primacy of parliamentary democracy was upheld vis-a-vis the Brexit plebiscite.

294proximity1
Bearbeitet: Nov. 4, 2016, 4:08 am

Notice, if you will, the sheer chance fact that Bill Clinton's little one-to-one "chat" with Attorney General Loretta Lynch at an airport private-jet terminal's hangar or on its out-of-the-way tarmac or aboard one their two jets--wherever it was exactly that they met and "chatted"--even came to light; it was never likely to have become known at all and was certainly never intended to have become known to the public at all. Yet, as these things happen, a witness to their meeting--but not to what actually transpired--related the fact to a reporter. Had he or she not done so, circumstances today should surely be quite different. Instead, the Clintons are--once again--seen to have done things for which the most obvious and reasonable explanation is criminal in character--which appear grossly improper and even, to those who arent gullible fans, quite illegal. And only a complete idiot could suppose that the explanation offered was reasonable or that either of them would have voluntarily divulged the fact of this otherwise completely secret meeting ---



Is Team Clinton Booting the Election?

By Michael Barone
November 04, 2016



••• ••• "obviously, something has changed. FBI Director James Comey's announcement Oct. 28 that the investigation into Clinton's non-secure emails as secretary of state was resuming undoubtedly contributed to it. And the race may already have been tightening after the announcement of what Trump might call yuuuuuge Obamacare premium increases.

"After all, Clinton is seeking a third Democratic term, though the signature policies of the current Democratic president -- Obamacare, the Iranian nuclear deal -- have always been unpopular.

"The response to the Comey announcement of those on Team Clinton -- which includes many of the mainstream media, as well as the Clinton campaign -- reeked of panic. They clearly didn't see this coming.

"The first response was to attack Comey for addressing his letter only to Republican members of Congress. In fact, it was addressed, in line with typical executive branch practice, to the appropriate committee members of both parties. An unforced error or, as the British would say, an own goal.

"Then came an attack on Comey for violating Justice Department "protocol" -- a word used a dozen times by vice presidential nominee Tim Kaine in one interview.

"But of course, Team Clinton didn't object to Comey's violating protocol July 5 when he announced he wouldn't recommend criminal charges against Clinton for violating email rules and lying repeatedly about it. He said that "no reasonable prosecutor" would bring such a case, even though no reasonable judge would quash an indictment under Title 18, Section 793(f) of U.S. Code based on the facts he alleged.

"My theory is that Comey was placed in an impossible position by the June 27 Phoenix tarmac meeting between former President Bill Clinton and Attorney General Loretta Lynch, a meeting that was surely intended to be secret but was revealed apparently because a TV reporter had a good source in the private jet terminal.

"By meeting with the spouse of a candidate under criminal investigation, Lynch revealed herself to be a political hack. Her Justice Department's refusal to summon a grand jury and sweetheart deals with key witnesses strengthen that view.


"So Comey, head of an investigative agency, was obliged to make a decision that would ordinarily be made by a prosecutor. Like a local judge asked to enjoin a party's national convention delegates, he evidently didn't consider it his job to determine who should be a presidential nominee.

"Team Clinton cheered that violation of protocol. The Oct. 28 letter required a "1984"-style flip-flop from those in the Clinton camp. They said, in effect, "We have always been at war with the protocol-violating James Comey."

"The repeated attacks on Comey by Clinton and the mainstream media were out of the 1990s Clinton playbook. Similar attacks worked when Bill Clinton was the incumbent president with high job approval. But Hillary Clinton isn't the incumbent president and has sub-50 percent approval.

"Did Team Clinton think its candidate would win a contest over honesty and integrity with an FBI director it had recently praised? That looks like political malpractice."
••• ••••


295margd
Nov. 4, 2016, 7:30 am

>288 Tid: Apologies on behalf of Americans for any ugliness you encounter here. Some people quickly resort to shutting down people with whom they disagree. Input from the free people the American President is widely said to lead should always be welcome! Just about every Canadian I encountered this summer--family, friends, strangers--has opinion about election. Even conservatives up there--the ones I encountered, anyway, no fans of PM Trudeau--are appalled by the prospect of Trump...

296RickHarsch
Nov. 4, 2016, 7:53 am

>295 margd: I find it extremely interesting to see how non-North Americans judge the US (and Canada, which seems to get a whitewash despite its weapons sales and all). Usually it's refreshing, usually it's more sane than the average US judgment. And for someone to enter into this particular forum's Pro and Con which despite LT being world wide is US-centric is especially welcome and interesting. But Barney is right about one thing: it's predictable that anyone from outside the US would find the obvious hypocrisy so typical and so multifarious a strange or appalling thing. Living in Slovenia I get questions all the time, and in general I can say that people are perplexed. I have to confirm that it is indeed all real (after a fashion).

So, yes, Tid, please do go on with your impressions. For those to whom it is not instructive we can hope at least the they simply don't recognize the fresh air.

297cpg
Nov. 4, 2016, 9:52 am

>279 davidgn: "A vote for McMullin is a vote for... I dunno. Mormonism, I guess."

Or, you know, a genuine conservative who isn't reprehensible.

298RickHarsch
Nov. 4, 2016, 10:37 am

>297 cpg: If that's true a vote for Clinton would amount to the same thing and women's rights and a chance to win into the bargain.

299cpg
Nov. 4, 2016, 11:44 am

>298 RickHarsch:

Right, because all American politicians except for Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein are conservatives. I cede to you the victory in this semantic game, and rephrase McMullin's appeal as that he is substantially further to the right in the American political spectrum than Clinton is and he appears to be substantially less disgusting than Trump is.

300cpg
Nov. 4, 2016, 11:52 am

>299 cpg:

Clinton's lifetime ACU rating is 8.13%, ranking her as the 82nd most conservative of the 100 senators in the 110th Congress.

301proximity1
Bearbeitet: Nov. 4, 2016, 12:45 pm

>295 margd:



Apologies on behalf of Americans for any ugliness you encounter here. Some people quickly resort to shutting down people with whom they disagree. Input from the free people the American President is widely said to lead should always be welcome! Just about every Canadian I encountered this summer--family, friends, strangers--has opinion about election. Even conservatives up there--the ones I encountered, anyway, no fans of PM Trudeau--are appalled by the prospect of Trump...



Really! That is classic (faux) Liberal "Gold" : you presume to offer apologies "...for any ugliness you encounter here" -- making you the judge of this "ugliness" and you do that ..."on behalf of Americans" generally.

That's quite in keeping with what self-appointed offense-taking (for others) social-justice-warriors presume to do so often.

Do we know that Tid had been offended? How and why? I'm a compatriot addressing her1. Where's the basis for the implication that this LT member isn't just as welcome to participate --and to be engaged and challenged-- just like any other member!--on her views as expressed?

"Input from the free people the American President is widely said to lead should always be welcome!" --- goes without saying! As a member of the site, there's no entré required to participate here; nor is there any place for apologies for my having treated this member no differently than any other member participating in a discussion forum here. To have done otherwise--now that should have constituted some kind of weird deference. And, really, for what good reason or cause?

A suggestion : Check your privileged offense-taking.

--------------
1 : I don't know what prompted the references to Canadians in your comments. Tid might be Canadian--I don't know that she is or why that ought to matter here--but, if so, she's apparently a Canadian living in England.

302RickHarsch
Nov. 4, 2016, 12:57 pm

Why am I imagining a giant black wingtip clad foot with a tiny body, like a worm emerging from the rain-soaked ground, and tiny arms no bigger round than tooth picks, and fish lips pressed to a small, appropriately so, rusted amplifier, through which sour words fly recklessly and gratefully about and away....?

303cpg
Nov. 4, 2016, 4:11 pm

Peyote?

304RickHarsch
Nov. 4, 2016, 4:38 pm

Would be a finer thing than what's crawling about.

305davidgn
Bearbeitet: Nov. 4, 2016, 5:32 pm

Well, that's fucking convenient.
CBS News:
Sources: U.S. intel warning of possible al Qaeda attacks in U.S. Monday
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sources-us-intel-warning-of-possible-al-qaeda-attack...

I miss the more innocent days of the 20th century.
http://www.wiglaf.org/www.weeklyweek.com/091098/qbert.html

306barney67
Nov. 4, 2016, 5:32 pm

We know that neither Mrs Clinton nor Barack Obama have any respect for the Constitution. We know that both have behaved like tyrants. And promised more of the same.

We don't know that about Trump. It's only a fear, and fear is not a very good foundation for one's judgment.

307RickHarsch
Nov. 4, 2016, 5:39 pm

>306 barney67: You still have that thing over there, Barn? That constitution thing? I thought it was called The Patriot Act now.

308RickHarsch
Nov. 4, 2016, 5:41 pm

>305 davidgn: So if it ain't ISIS what are we to think? Osama is still out there. Good God, man, this is nothing to joke about!

309davidgn
Bearbeitet: Nov. 4, 2016, 5:51 pm

>307 RickHarsch: Patriot Act, COG provisions, etc. But we don't really know, because it's too classified for the House Homeland Security Committee.
http://apjjf.org/-Peter-Dale-Scott/3448/article.html
Or listen: https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/archive/podcast/peter-dale-scott-continu...

310krazy4katz
Bearbeitet: Nov. 4, 2016, 5:56 pm

>306 barney67: No, it is the Republicans who promise to "stonewall" the appointment of any Supreme Court justice suggested by Hillary. It is the Republican-led Congress who flatly refused to hold hearings on President Obama's pick for the SC. It is the Republicans who refuse -- each year! -- to enact a budget to keep the government running. It is the Republicans who have disenfranchised African-Americans in my own state of North Carolina. And I could find many more examples of Republican disrespect for the Constitution and the people of our country. Why do you keep saying that Clinton and Obama have no respect for the Constitution? It is the Republicans who have no respect for women's rights, marriage between 2 consenting adults of either gender, voting rights etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum. They are the ones who want to reduce taxes on the wealthy and eliminate social welfare programs.

311davidgn
Bearbeitet: Nov. 4, 2016, 9:57 pm

I'm not surprised to hear Ray McGovern's opinion.
http://raymcgovern.com/2016/11/02/neither-trump-nor-clinton-ex-cia-analyst-ray-m...
(Interview on Irish National Radio)

Of course, he's also got some personal history with Clinton.
http://www.librarything.com/topic/227552#5670712

312barney67
Nov. 5, 2016, 12:10 am

>310 krazy4katz: You're confusing legal behavior with illegal behavior. The Repulicans hold views you disagree with, but that doesn't make them or their behavior unconstitutional.

Google Obama and executive privilege sometime.

We know what the Clintons have done. We don't know that about Trump because he hasn't been president. It's an obvious point. You think Trump will do terrible, unconstitutional things but you don't know. No one does. They're afraid, but they don't know. That's what I meant.

313proximity1
Bearbeitet: Nov. 5, 2016, 7:25 am


What's really going on is a rather simple case of the privileged class exhibiting its full-blown panic-mode. It's an unusual sight--so rare is it that they are faced with even just an outside chance that someone who doesn't completely look, think and behave as they see fit might be elected to high public office.

For the rest of us, choosing from slates of candidates none of whom ever even remotely resemble us is the privileged class's idea of "everything's fine in our democracy."

I agree that North Carolina's voter-ID requirements were unduly strict--but it's a great stretch to assert that their key purpose was to keep Blacks from voting. Rather, they tend to keep poor people generally--regardless of skin-color--from easily registering and voting. But, in typical current blind, damned-fool fashion, today's PC liberals are incapable of seeing general abuse of the poor. No. Unless the victims are women or children or are gay, lesbian, bisexual, 'trans-gendered' or of some other-than-'white' skin-color, then PC liberals just can't be bothered; the practical fact of the matter is that their social justice preoccupations are devoted exclusively to these former groups before any others--whose needs for just treatment must await some arbitrarily conceived threshold's passage before they can be taken up for serious consideration.

No wonder, then, that some seek aid and comfort wherever they can find a bit of it--even if they have to find it in a crass rich old man who used to speak off the record in terms that shock the comfortable and self-satisfied PC liberals.

Society is once again characterized by a huge gulf which separates a majority who constantly struggle just to barely get by from a minority : the fortunate whose lives, while not perfect in every degree, are yet so satisfying that the loss of their privileges is their main concern.

In an effort, however misconceived, to safeguard their privileged status, these fortunate are ready to cut any deal they think they must, ready to swallow and repeat any nonsense and any lie, provided they can hold on to their part of the spoils. In the face of these circumstances, the privileged class sees only the superficial symptoms of what is really a fundamental dysfunction--because their privileges depend on that dysfunction's maintenance.

______________________

Big Names Campaigning for Hillary Clinton Underscore Donald Trump’s Isolation (*)

By ALEXANDER BURNS and GARDINER HARRIS
November 4, 2016




Four days before the election, Hillary Clinton held a celebrity-studded concert event in Cleveland. (Doug Mills / New York Times)

••• •••
"Mr. Trump acknowledged the relative bareness of his events at a rally on Friday night: In defiant language, Mr. Trump hailed the size of the crowd packed into an arena in Hershey, Pa.

'By the way, I didn’t have to bring J. Lo or Jay Z — the only way she gets anybody,' he said. 'I am here all by myself. Just me — no guitar, no piano, no nothing.'"


_______________
* And ours. If this photo doesn't also underscore your political 'isolation,' then I guess you and I are on opposite sides of that social gulf.

314krazy4katz
Nov. 5, 2016, 12:34 pm

>312 barney67: You are partly correct. ;-)
I started out with what I considered illegal behavior but then got sidetracked into a rant on why I disagree with the majority of the Republican platform. However I still think the blatant disregard for their Congressional obligations regarding the Supreme Court must be illegal. Unfortunately they can't/won't censure themselves. The gridlock is what prompted Obama to use Executive Privilege in the first place. I don't think that is illegal.

315DugsBooks
Bearbeitet: Nov. 5, 2016, 3:57 pm

>310 krazy4katz: Thumbs up!

316StormRaven
Nov. 5, 2016, 2:25 pm

312: Asserting executive privilege isn't illegal behavior, even if that assertion is later ruled improper. That's just part of the process. Every administration in the modern era has asserted executive privilege over a number of things.

317barney67
Nov. 5, 2016, 4:26 pm

I don't know what the law is regarding Supreme Court nominations.

I'm not one hundred percent clear on executive privilege, but I'm not sure anyone else is either. I have heard Obama called tyrannical many times for his use of executive privilege. It is not meant to be a dictatorial power, as far as I know. You can add hyprocritical too to Obama's list because I recall his saying years ago that he didn't like executive privilege. It's always different when you're the one in charge.

Ask someone to give up power sometime. Go ahead. Not easy.

I know that "gridlock" is a good thing and that it is not a good reason for any president to take the law in his hands simply because he isn't getting his way. Our entire government is all about three sides pulling at each other in constant tension and debate. That's good. That's how it was meant to be. It's better than killing each other.

I've heard this many times over the years. Gridlock. So terrible. Nothing getting done. Big panic. We're helpless without government. When it's your president, gridlock is bad; when the bozo is in charge, gridlock is good. I believe it's good no matter who is elected. Why not just say the president feels this way, the Congress feels another way, they debated it legally, voted on it, and now it's done. End of story. You don't like the outcome, too bad. There's always another election. You live with the result, I live with it, and we move on.

318krazy4katz
Bearbeitet: Nov. 5, 2016, 4:58 pm

>317 barney67: Gridlock is very bad. It is not the same as pushing, pulling, debate and compromise. The Republicans are saying they are not willing to compromise. They will simply not put forward any nominee for the Supreme Court that Hillary suggests. That is dereliction of duty. Gridlock is also bad when budgets don't get passed. For example refusing to pass the Education Bill unless Planned Parenthood is defunded (of course totally unrelated). I have seen that happen at both the state and federal level. At the federal level, research gets shut down, people who work for the government don't get paid, road construction stops etc.

A long time ago, when I was living in Pennsylvania as a student, I remember gridlock at the state level when they were delayed in passing a budget (something about a bridge somewhere in PA). It got so serious that people were not getting their welfare checks. There is no "moving on" from that. Finally the housekeepers who cleaned the offices and bathrooms in the state house walked off their jobs because they weren't getting paid. Suddenly Pennsylvania had a budget! It was a very educational summer in adversarial politics.

319StormRaven
Nov. 5, 2016, 5:05 pm

I'm not one hundred percent clear on executive privilege, but I'm not sure anyone else is either. I have heard Obama called tyrannical many times for his use of executive privilege.

So, basically, you are saying that Obama is engaged in illegal actions and your example is a legal doctrine you don't even understand?

Obama has attempted to invoke executive privilege exactly once in his administration, to resist demands to turn over documents related to the "Fast and Furious" program to Congress. The asserted privilege was that the documents were deliberative in nature and related to law enforcement decisions properly within the purview of the executive, and that requiring them to be turned over would have the chilling effect of causing executive agency personnel to be reluctant to speak with candor on issues of policy making during such internal discussions.

The issue was litigated in Federal court and the judge ruled against withholding the documents. In her ruling, Judge Amy Jackson said she wasn't questioning the propriety of Obama's claim of privilege, but ruling that the claim could not be sustained in view of other information the Justice Department had released on the topic, chiefly an Office of Inspector General report released in September 2012.

Specifically she said that "This ruling is not predicated on a finding that the withholding was intended to cloak wrongdoing on the part of government officials or that the withholding itself was improper" Instead, she said that the substance of the documents had already been made public by other means, so the privilege couldn't cover the documents any more.

I'd like someone to explain how this is "tyrannical".

320RickHarsch
Nov. 5, 2016, 6:18 pm

Blimey! You mean some people DO know the laws, rules, etcetera? Where does that leave us, Barney?

321jjwilson61
Nov. 6, 2016, 10:02 am

>319 StormRaven: There's no need to get pedantic. I believe Barney is referring mostly to Obama actions on immigration and the programs allowing some people to defer their deportations. This isn't executive privilege but just the exercise of executive powers as outlined in the constitution. Congress has clearly not allocated enough funding for Obama to deport all 11 million illegal aliens in this country so he has to make choices about who gets deported, just as a DA makes choices about which cases to prosecute.

I don't know if the program, DACA I think, can be justified under the law as written, but it's plausible and since the Supreme Court hasn't ruled on it yet, I'm giving Obama the benefit of the doubt.

322Tid
Nov. 6, 2016, 10:12 am

>319 StormRaven:

I have heard Obama called tyrannical many times for his use of executive privilege.

So, basically, you are saying that Obama is engaged in illegal actions and your example is a legal doctrine you don't even understand?

I read that as "I have heard..." rather than "I'm asserting that..."

323StormRaven
Nov. 6, 2016, 11:58 am

321: There's no need to get pedantic. I believe Barney is referring mostly to Obama actions on immigration and the programs allowing some people to defer their deportations.

322: I read that as "I have heard..." rather than "I'm asserting that..."

Go back to post 312. Barney is asserting something specific.

324krolik
Nov. 6, 2016, 4:40 pm

>321 jjwilson61:

Oh, please. That was not "pedantic." It was a description. Offer a better one, if you have one.

325JGL53
Nov. 6, 2016, 4:42 pm

Comey just released a new letter clearing HRC.

See, kids - much to do about nothing.

Now wake me up on Nov. 9.

326lriley
Nov. 6, 2016, 5:50 pm

#325---the real question for Comey is does he retire, resign before Hillary is sworn is or does he wait for her to fire him?

327krazy4katz
Nov. 6, 2016, 6:07 pm

>326 lriley: Oh to be a fly on the wall during their first conversation …

328StormRaven
Nov. 6, 2016, 6:10 pm

325 - 326: I predict he will resign before the end of November.

329jjwilson61
Nov. 6, 2016, 6:35 pm

>323 StormRaven:, >324 krolik: I believe Barney misspoke when he referred to executive priveledge, and really, not everyone needs to be an expert on all aspects of constitutional law. By addressing his trivial mistake in using the wrong term or art you are avoiding addressing his real point that he believes Obama is exceeding his authority as the executive.

330artturnerjr
Nov. 6, 2016, 6:41 pm

>325 JGL53:

Who needs a roller coaster when you've got the 2016 election?!?

331prosfilaes
Nov. 6, 2016, 7:22 pm

>329 jjwilson61: I believe Barney misspoke when he referred to executive priveledge

Then he should clarify.

he believes Obama is exceeding his authority as the executive.

If he's not "an expert on all aspects of constitutional law" and can't or won't clearly specify in what sense he's talking about, who cares? It is simply impossible to discuss something that broad and ill-defined.

332StormRaven
Bearbeitet: Nov. 6, 2016, 8:05 pm

I believe Barney misspoke when he referred to executive priveledge

He can clarify that for himself. He stated that one should "Google Obama and executive privilege" to see evidence of Obama acting unconstitutionally. If he meant something else, he can say so, without your help, despite the fact that you seem to think he's in need of your hand-holding.

By addressing his trivial mistake in using the wrong term or art

I didn't address his trivial mistake in using the wrong term of art. I discussed the one time Obama asserted executive privilege, under what circumstances Obama did so, and what happened when he did.

you are avoiding addressing his real point that he believes Obama is exceeding his authority as the executive.

No, I am addressing the claim he made. People don't exceed their authority in the abstract. You have to point to a specific instance of exceeding one's authority if you want to back up a claim that they are doing so. If he wants to make a different claim, then he can do so.

333lriley
Nov. 6, 2016, 10:07 pm

You have to think that Comey's days were numbered anyway. FWIW--whether retire, resign or fired he most likely winds up with a really nice cushy job in the private sector that will remunerate him better than the job he has now. These Washington people have all kinds of connections. They take care of themselves. Nor do I think that Hillary firing him would put him out all that much (What's she going to do--yell at him?--he can always yell back) but if he sticks around you know that's going to happen. Basically like most all of his predecessors Comey has shown himself to just be another political animal as well as how overrated the FBI is.

334proximity1
Bearbeitet: Nov. 7, 2016, 2:10 am

>325 JGL53: :


"Comey just released a new letter clearing HRC.
See, kids - much to do about nothing."


LOL!

"Comey just released a new letter clearing HRC." ≠ "See, kids - much to do about nothing."

Not even if Hillary Clinton says so.

"Now wake me up on Nov. 9."

Remind us-- what are the reliable indications that you're "awake"?

335JGL53
Nov. 7, 2016, 12:13 pm

> 334

You will have your chance to make super fun of me the night of Nov. 8.

Or I you.

Don't be late for our date, genius.

336proximity1
Bearbeitet: Nov. 7, 2016, 12:29 pm


>335 JGL53:

We already know which party wins: in our broken system, it's the Oligarchs in a walk.

I'm a democratic republican. This system isn't even close. We're all losers in this system unless we belong to the oligarchs--until we figure that out and decide to refuse to accept it any longer.

I don't need to make fun of you. This system is already doing that to an extent far beyond anything my own pitiful efforts could add.

337JGL53
Nov. 7, 2016, 1:05 pm

> 336

Paranoia much? Narcissist much?

LOL.

338DugsBooks
Nov. 7, 2016, 11:34 pm

Thought a quote by Vonnegut might be appropriate

"The two real political parties in America are the Winners and the Losers. The people don't acknowledge this. They claim membership in two imaginary parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, instead."

339rolandperkins
Nov. 8, 2016, 12:25 am

Quite a number -- I couldnʻt say what per cent --
DONʻT "claim membership " in either of the two
"major" parties. But, as Iʻve posted before, we
Americans like to BE Independents, but we donʻt
like to vote for Independents.

Latest estimate says that the Libertarians and
the Greens, combined will get about 9% of the
popular vote.

340StormRaven
Nov. 8, 2016, 12:57 am

339: I'd peg it at being likely to be closer to 7.5% or slightly less than Perot got in 1996 in his second try at the Presidency.

341margd
Nov. 8, 2016, 7:40 am

The (Washington) Post's View
Hillary Clinton is amply qualified to be president

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-is-amply-qualified-to-be...

342DugsBooks
Nov. 8, 2016, 8:31 am

Another quote from one of Vonnegut's books, which I could not find, he says while referring to the Kennedys at one point I believe something about people. "turning money into political power and then political power back into money". That concept runs through my head still during elections.

343proximity1
Bearbeitet: Nov. 8, 2016, 9:09 am

(From RealClearpolitics )

What she* says :



RealClearpolitics :

"Exclusive USA Today Clinton op-ed:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/11/06/hillary-clinton-vote--for-me-el...

I'll look for common ground"
| Hillary Clinton |18 hours ago ¤


"In January, America is going to have a new president. Things are going to change — that much is certain. The question is, what kind of change are we going to have?

"We can build an economy that works for everyone"...


Yeah, sure!, "we" _could_, (in theory), do that. It's just that, in _fact_ Bill & Hillary Clinton's first priority has always been advancing their own careers or scheming to sell influence and make themselves rich--preferably both at once. " ...Build(ing) an economy that works for everyone" has typically conflicted with those other priorities and so, instead of actually having made some progress on it, that theoretical possibility has always been put on the back-burner by the Clintons --with the heat turned off. They'd _much_ rather 1) be rich 2) live in the White House and 3) lie and cheat to accomplish 1) & 2) than sacrifice any of 1) through 3) in the service of the low-priority ..."Build an economy that works for everyone"

That is why today, instead of an economy that works for everyone, we have had three to four decades of option No. 2 :


..."or stack the deck even more for those at the top."


--which is what _in fact_ has been happening while they were busy pursuing their careers and making themselves rich from the influence they acquired in them.

Everyone makes choices from the opportunities which arise. We can learn about the real versus the virtuously-claimed priorities of others by observing what they've actually chosen to do as opposed to what they claim they've wanted and intended.

The Clintons made their fortunes catering to the interests of the rich. To do that, they sacrificed other possibilities which they might have championed instead.



"We can keep America safe through strength and smarts — or turn our backs on our allies, and cozy up to our adversaries.

"We can come together to build a stronger, fairer America, or fear the future and fear each other.

"Everything I’ve done, as first lady, senator, or secretary of State, I’ve done by listening to people and looking for common ground, even with people who disagree with me. And if you elect me on Tuesday, that’s the kind of president I’ll be."



And that's the problem with the Clintons. Whenever and wherever they "look for" and find "common ground," the results are much better than advertised for the Clintons and their rich circle of intimates and much worse than advertised for the rest of us.

We already know that HRC is a politician who studiously keeps her public positions separate from her private positions-- and that these may differ according to her own conveniences.

So we're entitled to wonder why we should take the rest of her commentary seriously.



"Here are four priorities for my first 100 days — issues I’ve heard about from Americans all over our country."



She's demonstrated already what are her priorities.



* : By all evidence, "she" no more wrote this essay herself than I did. Instead, every word was meticulously considered by a dozen of her campaign's staff until, using the latest big-data number-crunching algorithms, the text was refined and tested before being passed with approval to the publication.

¤ : 18 hours ago -- based on approximately the time at which I found it.

344Tid
Bearbeitet: Nov. 8, 2016, 12:59 pm

>343 proximity1:

You give good sound reasons for rejecting the Clintons. But none for rejecting them in favour of the only alternative, Trumpkin...

345JGL53
Bearbeitet: Nov. 8, 2016, 2:00 pm

> 344

Tid - you know prox will continue with his anti-HRC diatribes after the election, right? If anything he will probably increase the level of maniacal rants when she is elected. Her election will probably take him over the edge. He is barely hanging on by his finger nails right now.

prox will never understand why all of us do not hate HRC more than ANYONE on earth, as he clearly does.

prox hates HRC with a passion that exceeds the average Jew's hatred of the memory of Adolph Hitler.

prox is a puppy. I will not mention the kind of puppy. I think everyone can figure that out on their own.

LOL.

346RickHarsch
Nov. 8, 2016, 2:15 pm

plastic bag? lake?

347JGL53
Bearbeitet: Nov. 8, 2016, 2:32 pm

> 346

That is for cats.

- I think maybe it would be nice if prox could be sent to a farm upstate where he could live out his life in a happy and wholesome way, frolicking with the other doggies and the farm animals on the verdant fields, drinking from the pristine artesian springs, snoozing away lazy summer afternoons under the old red hay wagon and so forth. It would be a good life. And we would hardly have cause to miss him.

348RickHarsch
Nov. 8, 2016, 3:14 pm

>347 JGL53: What a lovely thought, and unflaggable--I wish someone would wish as well for me.

349krolik
Nov. 8, 2016, 5:13 pm

This enormous thread is getting so long and unwieldy that maybe we should continue it on...good God, what am I saying? Time to give it up. Bag it. Chuck it. Scratch hard with your hind legs and cover it up.

350DugsBooks
Nov. 8, 2016, 7:08 pm

Kind of a built in end of days for this topic which is tonight, correct?

351proximity1
Nov. 9, 2016, 3:54 am

Re: >335 JGL53:

Wakey-wakey.

As I was saying,

"I don't need to make fun of you. This system is already doing that to an extent far beyond anything my own pitiful efforts could add."

352Tid
Bearbeitet: Nov. 9, 2016, 5:40 am

>351 proximity1:

It seems as if Trump was going after the Archie Bunker vote all along:

https://www.quora.com/What-IQ-level-does-Donald-Trump-have-Is-he-really-a-politi...

353barney67
Nov. 9, 2016, 7:31 am

>338 DugsBooks: What does that quote from spaceman Vonnegut mean?

354barney67
Nov. 9, 2016, 7:32 am

End of the world! End of the world! I can never be happy now!

355DugsBooks
Nov. 9, 2016, 3:36 pm

>353 barney67: Yep that is out of context which loses a lot of meaning. As I remember his diatribe he was describing an election where the front runners were all winners {financially secure and wanting for nothing} but one had hilariously tied himself to the losers group {I get Mondale out of this} and was the topic of humorous conversation at elite parties.

Flash to today and neither Trump nor the Clintons had anything to lose personally, the Cllintons are worth over $100 million as Trump says plus gov. benefits and Trump, had he lost, would have pouted in the Mediterranean for a few months. Either party could represent aggrieved or disadvantaged who would be at a loss but the winners were never in any danger of losing their comfortable life.

At least that is my recollection, I am sure more articulate answers could be found.

356abbottthomas
Nov. 15, 2016, 4:19 am

I haven't read the rest of the anger, bile, insult and rational comment on this thread but, as a postscript, it seems the right place to report a story in this morning's Times (of London) - surely a responsible organ of a free press? - that Trump is not eligible for the US Presidency because he was born Waheed Dawood (or some such name) in North Waziristan. There is even a photo of a small orange child.

I am speechless.

357davidgn
Bearbeitet: Nov. 15, 2016, 5:37 am

>356 abbottthomas: Par for the course for the media in this election. I've been speechless for a very long time.

Previously we were treated to the "secretly a Russian Manchurean Candidate" line -- which I peg as a calculated attempt to erode support for Trump among his historically McCarthyite-friendly base. Sadly, because that same base doesn't believe a damn thing the mainstream media says anymore, this effort succeeded only in turning most liberals (who still do) into neo-McCarthyites.

The "secretly Russian" angle has been pretty well played out (though the poison will linger on). Therefore, Trump must now be secretly Pakistani.

I suppose I'll become a "Pakistani quisling" in due course.
(I kid... but just barely)

Who knows what the ISI (font of all Pakistani media weirdness) is trying to accomplish by publishing this shit -- or London newspapers by giving it a voice.

ETA: For a perspective that's still heretical at the moment, but stands to become self-evident a few years down the line, there's no better listening than Radio War Nerd #51, which I've linked elsewhere: https://huffduffer.com/PixelRobot/360950 : two ex-Reagan-era rightist misfits at Berkeley (an postdoc in English and his contemporary student), since gone leftwing, recall that masterpiece of '80s Anglo-American propaganda known as The Spike, with applications to current events.

(And for the record, I'm one of those benighted assholes who voted for Stein)

358prosfilaes
Nov. 15, 2016, 4:52 am

>356 abbottthomas: Is there any evidence (by Donald Trump's standards) that Donald Trump was born in the US? I certainly don't recall seeing his birth certificate.

359Tid
Nov. 15, 2016, 4:56 am

>356 abbottthomas:

this morning's Times (of London) - surely a responsible organ of a free press?

You're kidding! aren't you...? The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who as I'm sure you know, also owns Fox News.

360abbottthomas
Nov. 15, 2016, 5:06 am

>359 Tid: The English? Irony? Yes?

The only newspaper that I trust to report responsibly is the FT, and, not being a broker or banker, I can't afford to buy it often.

361Tid
Nov. 15, 2016, 5:09 am

>360 abbottthomas:

Ah, I only just discovered (in another thread) that you are English! Forgive me...

I'm a Guardian reader myself, though I'm afraid its standards have slipped appallingly this century. The Independent - when it still lived - I found fairly truthful but ineffably boring, and The Mirror is simply a Labour Party equivalent of The Sun. No, I think Huffington beats them all.

362abbottthomas
Nov. 15, 2016, 6:06 am

>361 Tid: I find the Guardian too partisan but I share your opinion of the other two. Maybe I will have to look at Huffington.

363margd
Jan. 14, 2017, 7:21 am

Ex-MI6 agent Christopher Steele was so troubled by findings on Donald Trump that he worked for free: report

...Steele (retired M-16, worked on FIFA) grew frustrated from the U.S. intelligence community’s apparent lack of action, and suspected that there was somebody on the inside blocking a thorough inquiry into Trump’s record, instead focusing on the investigation into Hillary Clinton’s emails, sources said.

...Over the course of that summer, Steele (former WSJ reporter, head of US firm doing opp research for Republicans, then Dems, then, like Steele, pro bono) sent out several memos to both the MI6 and the FBI and eventually compiled the information into the dossier published earlier this week. But he wasn’t getting any headway, particularly not with the FBI’s New York office, which he claimed seemed intent on focusing all its energy on Clinton’s email scandal.

In October, a disheartened Steele spoke to the Washington editor of Mother Jones about his findings, temporarily sparking a thread of public interest that quickly subsided.

After the election, Steele and Simpson doubled down on their efforts, hoping that the U.S. intelligence community’s consensus on Russia having interfered in the 2016 election would prompt further interest in their findings.

It was at that point that Andrew Wood, a former British ambassador to Moscow, spoke with Arizona Sen. John McCain at a security conference in Canada.

Wood told McCain about the dossier, which concerned the longtime senator to the degree that he alerted the FBI to it immediately.

Trump and President Obama were subsequently briefed on the dossier’s content as part of a larger intelligence report on Russia’s alleged interference in the election. The President-elect kept mum about it until the damning document was published in full, and has since denounced it as “fake news.”

Simpson’s current whereabouts were not immediately known and he did not return a request for comment from the Daily News.

Steele, meanwhile, has reportedly gone into hiding, telling British media outlets earlier this week that he is “terrified for his safety.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ex-mi6-spy-troubed-findings-trump-worke...

364proximity1
Jan. 14, 2017, 8:37 am


>363 margd:

Note:



...Over the course of that summer, Steele (former WSJ reporter, head of US firm doing opp research for Republicans, then Dems, then, like Steele, pro bono) sent out several memos



Your copy & paste incorrectly identifies Steele as the former Wall Street Journal reporter. It was, instead, Simpson who was mentioned as the former WSJ reporter.