Group Read: The Curse of Chalion (Jan 2021)
ForumThe Green Dragon
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1Narilka
Getting a thread going for our The Curse of Chalion group read. General consensus was to use one thread for the discussion. To help everyone enjoy the read and the discussion, please use spoilers, and please mark the spoiler with where you are in the book, chapter/page/%. For example:
Ch 6 - Non spoiler commentspoiler comment
or
15% - Non spoiler commentspoiler comment
Ch 6 - Non spoiler comment
or
15% - Non spoiler comment
2libraryperilous
I'm reading The Hallowed Hunt this week, so I'll be interested in following the group read of another World of the Five Gods title. I also have read some of the Penric and Desdemona books and enjoyed them. Bujold's worldbuilding is fascinating.
Happy group reading, pubsters!
Happy group reading, pubsters!
3clamairy
I'm 20% of the way into this (looks like that's somewhere in Ch 6) and I am very much enjoying it. Pretty heart-wrenching set-up for the state in which we meet main character, though.
4Karlstar
My copy hasn't arrived yet, it is on the way though! I think there were a couple other people interested.
5clamairy
>4 Karlstar: Hope your copy arrives soon. I borrowed the ebook for my kindle, but will buy it eventually if I like the series enough.
Jim53 & MrsLee are definitely in, and there were multiple maybes & probablies.
Jim53 & MrsLee are definitely in, and there were multiple maybes & probablies.
6Majel-Susan
Oh, wow. A group read! Gotta see if I can spare up some time now!
7Sakerfalcon
I can't wait to start my reread of this! It never fails to hook me.
8Maddz
I've dug my hardback out of the bookcases in the 'library'. Fortunately, it was relatively accessible - being in the middle of the stack and not behind major furniture items like the home office set-up.
I'm now 3 pages into Chapter 2 - and have to say I have no memory of the story at all, although I read the series when they were first published.
I'm now 3 pages into Chapter 2 - and have to say I have no memory of the story at all, although I read the series when they were first published.
9Jim53
I've finished six chapters. My impressions so far are probably not spoilerific, but I'll tag them in case anyone doesn't want to see even this much:
Chapter 6:We've got a medieval/feudal sort of world, with several countries, who like to fight among themselves. I've seen just one fairly small fantasy element so far. I'm enjoying the narrator, and the pace at which we find out new stuff about him. He's had an interesting life and seems to have developed some wisdom.
I like the five-fold religion and how it fits into life. I still don't know what the story is about, really, whether there will be a quest, or a battle, or a coming-of-age, or what. The writing is good enough not to interfere with my enjoying the story. I'm ready to see some pieces put into action.
Chapter 6:
I like the five-fold religion and how it fits into life. I still don't know what the story is about, really, whether there will be a quest, or a battle, or a coming-of-age, or what. The writing is good enough not to interfere with my enjoying the story. I'm ready to see some pieces put into action.
10Maddz
>9 Jim53: I'm a bit ahead of you, having started Chapter 9. I still have no memory of the story at all, even though I have all four in dead tree editions.
I see the world as being a fantasy riff onReconquista Spain, c.f. Guy Gavriel Kay's The Lions of al-Rassan.
I see the world as being a fantasy riff on
11ScoLgo
I'm a little bit over halfway through after last night. Bujold has managed to surprise me with a few things, (*CAUTION!* Here be major spoilers if you are not as far along!)...
I have to say that I am enjoying this read quite a bit more than I had anticipated. This book was not part of my reading plan for this year, (or even on my radar, really), until this group read discussion began. So, thank you all for bringing this one to my attention.
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The magic system is understated. Being based more on deity-worship and sacrifice than casting of spells, throwing of fire-balls, etc., makes for an intriguing concept.
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This is much more of a court intrigue and machinations tale rather than high fantasy with pitched battles against bad guys, (at least so far). It makes for a more tense story line than I had expected.
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Killing off a main antagonist relatively early was unexpected, (and welcome! I really was starting to hate that guy!).
I have to say that I am enjoying this read quite a bit more than I had anticipated. This book was not part of my reading plan for this year, (or even on my radar, really), until this group read discussion began. So, thank you all for bringing this one to my attention.
12Maddz
Well, just finished. I still don't recall anything about the story, so I wonder if I actually read the book in the first place. My copy is a second-hand hardback, and the others are mass-market paperbacks which were purchased new. I do have vague memories of the other 3 in the series, so it's very possible I missed it when it first came out, and I purchased it later on but never got around to reading it.
Anyway, I will wait for others to finish before commenting.
Anyway, I will wait for others to finish before commenting.
13Sakerfalcon
I've started my reread and am already immersed in the rich world that Bujold creates. >10 Maddz: I agree with your spoiler re: the inspiration for the setting.
I like Cazaril right from the start, and enjoy how we gradually learn more about him with each encounter we observe, rather than getting a massive info-dump.
I like Cazaril right from the start, and enjoy how we gradually learn more about him with each encounter we observe, rather than getting a massive info-dump.
14MrsLee
I'm here! I'm here! Started reading during my breaks at work and am enjoying it so far.
I am also enjoying the introduction to Cazaril, and the way Bujold is slowly filling in his past through his interactions with those in the present. .
16Jim53
>13 Sakerfalcon: >14 MrsLee: I agree that she does a nice job of letting us get to know of his extensive background without info-dumping on us.
I finished the book last night. I had never read Bujold before and was generally impressed. It reminded me of a slightly less mellifluous Guy Kay novel.
I would have appreciated having a map, as so many fantasy novels provide. I'll save further comments till more folks are done.
I finished the book last night. I had never read Bujold before and was generally impressed. It reminded me of a slightly less mellifluous Guy Kay novel.
I would have appreciated having a map, as so many fantasy novels provide. I'll save further comments till more folks are done.
17Jim53
>11 ScoLgo: Your first bullet is one of the things I really liked about it.
18Karlstar
My first impression - a high slogging through the mud rating. He's actually walking! I didn't realize how closely this was tied to Paladin of Souls, though it isn't necessary to read Paladin first.
19tardis
>18 Karlstar: It is, in fact best to read Paladin of Souls AFTER, since chronologically occurs after and it has spoilers for Curse. The Hallowed Hunt takes place years before Curse, and I believe the Penric books (which do need to be read in order) come between Hunt and Curse.
I am very fond of the magic system and the religion of the 5 Gods. I am not religious (rather the opposite) but a world in which one could actually see the Gods working (even if it's only that one little miracle at the end of life), appeals to me.
I am very fond of the magic system and the religion of the 5 Gods. I am not religious (rather the opposite) but a world in which one could actually see the Gods working (even if it's only that one little miracle at the end of life), appeals to me.
20clamairy
I'm in Chapter 17, so almost 60% in and I am mostly enjoying it. I'm not crazy about Caziril's crush. Not that he has one, but that he's acting on it.
21ScoLgo
I finished The Curse of Chalion last night and enjoyed it. I really appreciated Bujold choosing to use third person non-omniscient perspective. No head-hopping occurs and so nothing happens off-stage - the reader only learns things as Caziril does. I have a few spoilery quibbles but will save those for when more people have finished. Overall, I rate the book 8 for 10 and will be happy to pick up Paladin of Souls should I run across a copy.
>20 clamairy:Yeah. That felt a bit squicky for me too.
>20 clamairy:
22Maddz
>20 clamairy:, >21 ScoLgo: I'd say it's no worse than a Georgette Heyer pairing. It would have been very much the norm for the purported time period. I thought she handled it rather well; it wasn't in focus, it just coloured some of Caziril's actions, and in the end turned out to be reciprocated.
23clamairy
Yes, I tried to take into consideration when it was written, because 30 years ago I wouldn't have thought twice about it. Just to clarify it wasn't so much the age difference, but that she's his student and under his protection.
24Maddz
>23 clamairy: There's a similar sort of dynamic in C J Cherryh's The Paladin, although that I did find squicky when I re-read it a year or so ago. I think the age difference there was bigger. Same thing in Barbara Hambly's Darwath.
It looks like a common trope at the time.
It looks like a common trope at the time.
25tardis
>20 clamairy: If you're at the spot I think, though, the acting-on is pretty minor, and he's going off to do something drastic that he doesn't expect to survive .
I was once again impressed by Iselle. She's constrained by her position and society, but for all that, she still manages to be thoughtfuland take responsibility for saving herself. She can't do it alone, but the plan was hers .
I was once again impressed by Iselle. She's constrained by her position and society, but for all that, she still manages to be thoughtful
26suitable1
Well, I am joining the group. I don't usually do group reads, but I find that I don't remember anything about this book. I have a 2002 copy and should have read it soon after acquiring it since it was written by a favorite. Maybe it will come back as I (re)read.
27clamairy
>24 Maddz: That does not surprise me. At least it's not as bad as Fire and Hemlock.
>25 tardis: I'm afraid to click on your spoiler. LOL I'll come back in a couple of days.
>26 suitable1: I'm so glad!
>25 tardis: I'm afraid to click on your spoiler. LOL I'll come back in a couple of days.
>26 suitable1: I'm so glad!
28reading_fox
Have also started it as a re-read. I've found I remember very little about it!. Am enjoying the much slower pace (than I remembered) than the Miles books.
29Sakerfalcon
I finished reading on Saturday. I don't know how many times I've read it now, but it's always so satisfying. Cazaril is one of my favourite characters in fantasy, and I find the magic/religious system fascinating and extremely well thought-out.
>25 tardis: I totally agree with your spoiler about Iselle. She has so many good qualities that will make her a great ruler, but I thought Bujold was brilliant when she showed Caz the brief vision of how the curse could warp those characteristics into a destructive force.
I love how we are given so many pieces of the jigsaw as the book progresses, some of which we may not even realise are significant, and then at the end we see how skilfully they all fit into place. I have such admiration for Bujold's plotting in this novel.
>19 tardis: I too love the miracle at the end of life, and the little details about how it is carried out - the poor temple that used the basket of kittens with different coloured ribbons!
Umegat is another of my favourite characters in the novel. The scene where Teidez slaughters the menagerie is one that never fails to break my heart
>25 tardis: I totally agree with your spoiler about Iselle.
I love how we are given so many pieces of the jigsaw as the book progresses, some of which we may not even realise are significant, and then at the end we see how skilfully they all fit into place. I have such admiration for Bujold's plotting in this novel.
>19 tardis: I too love the miracle at the end of life, and the little details about how it is carried out -
Umegat is another of my favourite characters in the novel.
30MrsLee
I won't be posting again until I'm done because even the non-spoilered comments above color my reading. Best for me to come in later, also, then I will know I have to click on all the spoiler tags, won't have to remember which ones, and be afraid that they refer to later events than where I'm at.
As for the reading, I am reluctant, and this is not the fault of the writer. Something in my doesn't want to experience hardship with characters I like anymore. Possibly that is why this last year was filled with rereads and nonfiction. This did not used to be a problem for me, but recently I don't want to invest in new worlds. I don't want to remember the names of places, I can't sort them in my head and I hate when I don't know how to pronounce them (I am thankful that Bujold at least makes the names pronounceable for the most part). I too wish for a map. I am going to push on though. I know and trust Bujold as a writer.
I do enjoy the world, I find the religious system to be closer to the Greeks and other ancients which I am also reading about, albeit without so much blood and drama, at least in the part I have learned about so far.
See you all at the end!
As for the reading, I am reluctant, and this is not the fault of the writer. Something in my doesn't want to experience hardship with characters I like anymore. Possibly that is why this last year was filled with rereads and nonfiction. This did not used to be a problem for me, but recently I don't want to invest in new worlds. I don't want to remember the names of places, I can't sort them in my head and I hate when I don't know how to pronounce them (I am thankful that Bujold at least makes the names pronounceable for the most part). I too wish for a map. I am going to push on though. I know and trust Bujold as a writer.
I do enjoy the world, I find the religious system to be closer to the Greeks and other ancients which I am also reading about, albeit without so much blood and drama, at least in the part I have learned about so far.
See you all at the end!
31suitable1
It does appear that I've never read this before. I'm sure that I would have recognized Cazaril's backstory if I has seen it before. Ms. Bujold always weaves a great story. Now reading chapter 7.
32Maddz
>31 suitable1: It's funny, I had the same reaction when I read it and Paladin of Souls. I've just started The Hallowed Hunt, and again I've no sense of familiarity. I wonder why - I'm sure I read them when I got them.
On the other hand, The Sharing Knife I do remember, along with The Spirit Ring (and naturally the Vorkosigan Saga).
On the other hand, The Sharing Knife I do remember, along with The Spirit Ring (and naturally the Vorkosigan Saga).
33reading_fox
The magic/religion is definitely growing on me as I go through - I'm about a third in so it's just ramping up a bit.
34fuzzi
I've been having troubles concentrating on new reads, so I decided to ditch them all and go back to Chalion, which I read in 2016.
I'm loving it, even though most of it I'm not remembering except in bits and pieces.
I'm loving it, even though most of it I'm not remembering except in bits and pieces.
36Jim53
>35 fuzzi: Cool, thanks. I had sorta figured out where a few things were, but this clarifies it nicely. I couldn't envision where Darthaca was.
37Jim53
Languages: Caz wants the young ladies to learn Darthacan early in the story. I never saw any hint at all of why he expected it to be useful. There didn't seem to be any language barrier between Chalion and Ibra, which was convenient. Would you say she made any real use of having her groups speak different languages?
38tardis
>37 Jim53: I think indicating that there are other languages is more part of world-building, rather than of explicit use in the story. It also functions as another good reason for the Provencara to appoint Caz as Iselle's secretary-tutor, since he can teach them. Princesses who may be married off for political alliance need to speak the language(s) of where they might end up. Also, even if Iselle or Betriz are just overhearing ambassadors or whatever talking at court, knowing what they're saying can be a big advantage.
39Karlstar
>35 fuzzi: Ooh, a map, thanks!
Glad to see more people joining in on the read. I am about 3/4 of the way to being done.
Glad to see more people joining in on the read. I am about 3/4 of the way to being done.
40fuzzi
>36 Jim53: >39 Karlstar: you're welcome!
I'm about halfway through, and while incidents in the story come to mind, the greater plot has disappeared from my memory. I read it four years ago and I just don't remember it...I guess that's a good thing?
I'm about halfway through, and while incidents in the story come to mind, the greater plot has disappeared from my memory. I read it four years ago and I just don't remember it...I guess that's a good thing?
41Maddz
>40 fuzzi: I had the same experience - although the world I recall, I remembered nothing about the story. I do recall the story of the Vorkosigan and Sharing Knife series, and the story of The Spirit Ring, but nothing about this series. Odd.
42Karlstar
Is anyone else feeling the lack of backstory on some of the characters? They are good characters, but even Caz is missing what I think are essential elements of his history.
43tardis
>42 Karlstar: Interesting. I don't think I've ever felt the need to know more. I thought enough of Caz's backstory came out in the story, albeit not all at once. I don't recall noticing a lack for him or any of the others. But that's just me - what did you feel was missing?
44suitable1
Finished last night. If you have not read this (or don't remember) I suggest that you give it a try. Excellent story and great characters.
"Prayer, he suspected as he hoisted himself up and turned for the door, was putting one foot in front of the the other, Moving all the same."
>42 Karlstar: Much more backstory might require another book.
"Prayer, he suspected as he hoisted himself up and turned for the door, was putting one foot in front of the the other, Moving all the same."
>42 Karlstar: Much more backstory might require another book.
45NorthernStar
All the posts here tempted me to do a reread, and it remains one of my favourite books.
46Jim53
>42 Karlstar: I agree. I wondered several things about Caz's background. We know Caz was given the command at Gotobert and is addressed as a lord. Who/what was he that he was given that command? Where did he rank (of old) among the various marches and other titles we see? Did he have the sort of position where he had a successor? What prepared him to react so philosophically to several horrible situations? Where did he go and what did he do when he left being a page? Did he become fluent in other languages because he spent time in other countries? etc.
47Jim53
We got started on this process as a result of a conversation in my 2020 thread about the best single-volume fantasy novels. Having read it, I agree that it belongs in that conversation for sure.
48Karlstar
>43 tardis: >44 suitable1: Caz for one, and several others, have no home nor family members. We know what Caz did in the past, but what about his parents or siblings or cousins or any other relatives. I don't need a lot, it just felt like an easily filled in hole was left empty.
>46 Jim53: That's exactly the kind of thing I wondered about.
I'm done reading and I really enjoyed this, I just wondered if anyone else felt the same way. When I start a new gaming campaign, I always ask my players to fill in this sort of information for their characters - where are they from, what family do they have, etc. It helps me place them and fill out my world.
>46 Jim53: That's exactly the kind of thing I wondered about.
I'm done reading and I really enjoyed this, I just wondered if anyone else felt the same way. When I start a new gaming campaign, I always ask my players to fill in this sort of information for their characters - where are they from, what family do they have, etc. It helps me place them and fill out my world.
49ronincats
Had to drop in and see what was being said here. This book and Paladin of Souls are two of my favorite fantasy books of all time (along with The Goblin Emperor, the Paksennarion books, and the Vlad Taltos books and the Thursday Next books and...well, lets just say they are definitely top tier) and have been reread numerous times. Always good to see people enjoying them for the first time!
50reading_fox
Finished. Weird tribute to canterbury tales towards the end.
Are we going to have a distinct finished has spoilers thread?
Enjoyed. It's just well written, great story. A bit of romance, peril, redemption, and a good dose of action, alongside intelligent characters (always my favourite) and innovative world/god/magic system.
Are we going to have a distinct finished has spoilers thread?
Enjoyed. It's just well written, great story. A bit of romance, peril, redemption, and a good dose of action, alongside intelligent characters (always my favourite) and innovative world/god/magic system.
51fuzzi
>42 Karlstar: I'm doing a reread, about halfway through.
One thing I have discovered when I read is that I don't need backstory for my characters. One of my favorite authors, CJ Cherryh, kind of "drops" you into her world systems and just trickles background all throughout the books, so maybe it's something I'm comfortable with.
One thing I have discovered when I read is that I don't need backstory for my characters. One of my favorite authors, CJ Cherryh, kind of "drops" you into her world systems and just trickles background all throughout the books, so maybe it's something I'm comfortable with.
52clamairy
I finished reading this last night. I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I am not sure it would make my "top fantasies of all time" list. I am going to wait a few days and come back to discuss it. I did get very attached to Caz.
53NorthernStar
>42 Karlstar:, >46 Jim53:, >48 Karlstar: - some of those questions about Caz are answered in bits and pieces throughout the book. I did go looking for some of them and found a few references: He mentions after he arrives in Valenda that he no longer holds Cazeril, it's keep, or any of his father's lands, and later that his family had run to financial fecklessness and unlucky political alliances. His military history comes out in bits and pieces as well - in conversation with the Provincara, the Royesse, Betriz, and with Palli. I like that there is no single info-dump, but that we get to know him gradually.
54MrsLee
I am finished now. Enjoyed it to the end.
At 41% it occured to me that most people of faith would be very uncomfortable if their god/goddess/what-have-you appeared or manifested themselves clearly in their world.
42% Caz is served bread, soaked in milk and honey when he is on his deathbed. This is what our family called either cemetery soup or graveyard stew!
71% This has to be a plus for Karlstar, end one chapter setting out on a mucky winter journey, but begin the next chapter having arrived! Although, there is plenty of mud travel later.
I don't know why people talk about a magic system in this book. It is clearly a religion and the gods acting, not magic and spells where people can wield power.
At 41% it occured to me that most people of faith would be very uncomfortable if their god/goddess/what-have-you appeared or manifested themselves clearly in their world.
42% Caz is served bread, soaked in milk and honey when he is on his deathbed. This is what our family called either cemetery soup or graveyard stew!
71% This has to be a plus for Karlstar, end one chapter setting out on a mucky winter journey, but begin the next chapter having arrived! Although, there is plenty of mud travel later.
I don't know why people talk about a magic system in this book. It is clearly a religion and the gods acting, not magic and spells where people can wield power.
55MrsLee
Cazarill's blessing to the Royess's mother puts me in mind of one of my favorite Bible verses, which I won't quote because of pub rules.
>50 reading_fox: I saw that reference as well and thought it a bit odd.
>50 reading_fox: I saw that reference as well and thought it a bit odd.
56Karlstar
>54 MrsLee: There was just enough travel to add the proper time sense to the book, without any meaningless meandering. I was scared at the beginning when he was walking, but that didn't last long. There is mud though!
>50 reading_fox: I thought that was amusing, I probably wouldn't have caught it if not for YouKneek's recent review.
>50 reading_fox: I thought that was amusing, I probably wouldn't have caught it if not for YouKneek's recent review.
57Sakerfalcon
>53 NorthernStar: I like that too. In real life when you meet someone new you don't spill out your whole life stories there and then. You learn more about them as your acquaintance develops. I like that we learn about Caz this way.
>54 MrsLee: I love how when those who are chosen by their gods are together they share rueful looks and sighs that express what a very mixed blessing it is to be "favoured" by the deity
I agree about the travelling, there is just enough to give you a sense of the distance covered and time taken.
>54 MrsLee: I love how
I agree about the travelling, there is just enough to give you a sense of the distance covered and time taken.
58MrsLee
>57 Sakerfalcon: Agreed. In fact, there was much about practical religion in this book that made me say, "Truth!" but which I can't really talk about in the pub. :) Did the faith bits resonate with me because I am a person of faith? I'm curious, because those who do not lean to a system of faith do not seem to have issues with this story, so for them, I suppose that it being in a fantasy realm is enough to separate it from religion in this world? I don't want to start any conversations here we shouldn't be starting, but I am always interested in how others see the world around them, so perhaps if anyone wishes to respond without bending/breaking rules, they could respond on my profile instead of here.
59fuzzi
Reread finished. I'd forgotten most of the story, including the climactic scene where Caz is attacked by dy Jironal (I kept thinking of his name as di Giorno as in the pizza brand!) .
Loved it again.
Loved it again.
60Jim53
>54 MrsLee: The only instance I saw of personally controlled magic was the death magic, which is imperfectly controlled, and the gods can interfere, but it was something a person could at least try to initiate. I agree that the magic in the book is tightly integrated with the religion.
61Jim53
It's interesting to see several folks who had read the book previously say that they didn't remember it. It will be interesting to see if I have a similar experience. I typically don't in books that I like this much.
62Jim53
>57 Sakerfalcon: Yes! about the ambivalence of the "favored" and their rueful commiseration. That was a very strong plus for me.
63MrsLee
>61 Jim53: I've been interested in that also. I won't give this one 5 stars, but it might garner 4 and a half. I did like it, I keep wondering about Caz, and thinking I should go visit, but then I remember I'm finished with the book. Don't see how I could forget it, but then I don't read many fantasy novels, and I most certainly do forget what happens in my favorite mystery stories.
64Sakerfalcon
>63 MrsLee: I definitely recommend staying in this world and reading Paladin of souls, which has Ista as the main character.
65jillmwo
I finished my re-read this week as well. I'd read it back in 2016 (based on my reading thread), and immediately followed up with Paladin of Souls. As with others, I remembered some bits, but not the full story which was what made this enjoyable. Just a couple of observations that may or may not hold true for others.
(1) I really loved the three strong women (the Provencara, Ista and Iselle). For all that Caz is our main POV character, it was clear to me that each of those women were steered their own boat in life. Bujold seemed to me to present them as the three stages of womanhood -- maiden, matron, crone. Bertriz was fine, but I felt was reduced a bit in importance because of the romance storyline.
(2) Like others, I really liked the character of Umegat and I wish he had gotten a more complete story arc (like a nice novella).How does one come back from that kind of severe injury when language skills might be lost?
(3) I wondered whether anyone else saw parallels between the figure of Caz with that of the hero in Ben-Hur. Both men are sent to the galleys unfairly, they both have cause to resort to vengeance, they both experience (unwillingly to some extent) a journey through to redemption (accomplished through means of religious engagement). One that is accomplished through a recognition that one must die on behalf of others in some form or another Did anyone see the parallel? Or is it just me making up something that isn't there? I'm really curious to know.
During this re-read, I was less interested in the political maneuverings. I was a little less impressed with the characterizations of the male villains. For whatever reason, the villains all seemed less successfully portrayed as well-rounded figures. They seemed primarily to wield swords and ride horses, but not possessed of any other strengths/weaknesses to give meaning to their own actions. (Someone, please tell me if I'm being unfair.)
I did most particularly like the work that Bujold had put into the names, the linguistic structures, and into creating a persuasive belief structure.
But I did want to ask others what elements of the story make this such a reliable comfort read? Is it the medieval setting of the fantasy? Is it the lack of technology? Is it due to Bujold's writing style? Because what struck me over and over again is that life with the ghosts and demons is not a pleasant thing.
And mrslee I recommend the novellas having to do with Penric and Desdemona. Very enjoyable quick reads set in the same universe.
(1) I really loved the three strong women (the Provencara, Ista and Iselle). For all that Caz is our main POV character, it was clear to me that each of those women were steered their own boat in life. Bujold seemed to me to present them as the three stages of womanhood -- maiden, matron, crone. Bertriz was fine, but I felt was reduced a bit in importance because of the romance storyline.
(2) Like others, I really liked the character of Umegat and I wish he had gotten a more complete story arc (like a nice novella).
(3) I wondered whether anyone else saw parallels between the figure of Caz with that of the hero in Ben-Hur. Both men are sent to the galleys unfairly, they both have cause to resort to vengeance, they both experience (unwillingly to some extent) a journey through to redemption (accomplished through means of religious engagement).
During this re-read, I was less interested in the political maneuverings. I was a little less impressed with the characterizations of the male villains. For whatever reason, the villains all seemed less successfully portrayed as well-rounded figures. They seemed primarily to wield swords and ride horses, but not possessed of any other strengths/weaknesses to give meaning to their own actions. (Someone, please tell me if I'm being unfair.)
I did most particularly like the work that Bujold had put into the names, the linguistic structures, and into creating a persuasive belief structure.
But I did want to ask others what elements of the story make this such a reliable comfort read? Is it the medieval setting of the fantasy? Is it the lack of technology? Is it due to Bujold's writing style? Because what struck me over and over again is that life with the ghosts and demons is not a pleasant thing.
And mrslee I recommend the novellas having to do with Penric and Desdemona. Very enjoyable quick reads set in the same universe.
66MrsLee
>64 Sakerfalcon: But I didn't care much for Ista. Not sure I want to spend a whole book with her.
>65 jillmwo: I like the idea of the three women as the goddess trilogy, especially in light of the religious system. Agreed about Betriz, she seemed more of an ideal than a person. I also agree about the villains.
Umegat. We need to know more about Umegat.
As for the Ben-Hur connection, it's been too long since I read that to compare, but surely similar to any savior figure?
Why is this a comfort read?For me, because none of the perils went too far or lasted too long. They loomed, and then were over. Caz was someone we could identify with. Not too good, not all-knowing, mostly just bumbling along like us all. Nice things happened in the end, as we knew they would. The good were rewarded, the bad punished. Balance was achieved and all is right with the world.
>65 jillmwo: I like the idea of the three women as the goddess trilogy, especially in light of the religious system. Agreed about Betriz, she seemed more of an ideal than a person. I also agree about the villains.
Umegat. We need to know more about Umegat.
As for the Ben-Hur connection, it's been too long since I read that to compare, but surely similar to any savior figure?
Why is this a comfort read?
67Maddz
>66 MrsLee: And I think you've put your finger on why I recall nothing about either The Curse of Chalion or Paladin of Souls apart from the setting, even though I had them for years and (presumably) read them when I got them. I have the same feeling about The Hallowed Hunt which I have started on but got bored and have gone to The Elemental Masters (I'm trying to decide whether to keep them or not).
68NorthernStar
>66 MrsLee:, >64 Sakerfalcon: I would also recommend Paladin of Souls. I think you will like it. Remember, Ista has been under a curse for pretty much her entire adult life. Paladin of Souls is about how she figures out what to do with the rest of her life.
69ronincats
And I third the recommendation for Paladin of Souls!! Some great characters there!
70Karlstar
>67 Maddz: >68 NorthernStar: >69 ronincats: Now that I've read this, I'm sure Paladin of Souls would make more sense, but I'm not sure it would appeal more, I thought it got too theological/mystical and meandered. I agree with what >66 MrsLee: said in her spoiler, which helped this book appeal to me.
As far as whether I'll remember this one or not, I really did enjoy it, but I don't find myself wondering where the author was going to take the plot or the characters next, so it will likely fade into the background. It is well written, I recommend it, but it won't stick in my head like some others.
As far as whether I'll remember this one or not, I really did enjoy it, but I don't find myself wondering where the author was going to take the plot or the characters next, so it will likely fade into the background. It is well written, I recommend it, but it won't stick in my head like some others.
71fuzzi
I didn't see the Ben Hur comparison, but it makes sense. Think how in both stories the protagonist saves someone's life while a galley slave, and it works out for the good.
Why a comfort read? It pulls me in with characters who I really like, and I lose myself in a familiar story flow.
Why a comfort read? It pulls me in with characters who I really like, and I lose myself in a familiar story flow.
72Jim53
To me, the really well drawn, intriguing characters are Caz, Iselle, and Umegat, and to a lesser extent, the Provincara. Like others, I would have enjoyed more of Umegat, but too much more might have ruined the effect. This is one difference, for me, between CofC and a typical GGK fantasy such as A Song for Arbonne, which was mentioned in the discussion of best fantasies. Kay's novels are crawling with fascinating, well drawn secondary characters; I sometimes think he does better with them than with the leads. That's one thing I would say Bujold has not done here. Were there other characters that stood out for you?
73Jim53
Looks as if I've taken a bullet on Paladin of Souls. I can't remember who fired the first shot, but I was hit by a barrage. It sounds as if it might elaborate a bit on the five-god system, through Ista's story?
74ronincats
>73 Jim53: Oh, definitely!!
75reconditereader
I would read a whole book about Umegat, and happily.
76reading_fox
>66 MrsLee: " why is this a comfort read?"
I wish I could answer this. I read so many ER books that are at best, OK, but not enthralling, don't care about the characters, the world grates, etc and the contrast with something like this, or my other favourite authors is vast. And yet I'm unable (and unwilling to study the textual construction in that detailed a manner for fear of losing the joy) to say why something does appeal, as this surely does, and so many others don't. The pacing helps, as mentioned, and there's a smoothness, a rich detail, enough but not too much, that it's just a pleasure to read.
I wish I could answer this. I read so many ER books that are at best, OK, but not enthralling, don't care about the characters, the world grates, etc and the contrast with something like this, or my other favourite authors is vast. And yet I'm unable (and unwilling to study the textual construction in that detailed a manner for fear of losing the joy) to say why something does appeal, as this surely does, and so many others don't. The pacing helps, as mentioned, and there's a smoothness, a rich detail, enough but not too much, that it's just a pleasure to read.
77Karlstar
>75 reconditereader: Agreed! He was too interesting. If this was a Brandon Sanderson project we'd have a 1200 page book with 2/3 of it dedicated to Umegat, to read next.
78Narilka
I am finally starting this today! Can't wait to go back through the thread as I catch up with everyone :)
79Jim53
>75 reconditereader: >77 Karlstar: I was eager for more about Umegat, but on reflection I think the paucity of real info about him is part of his appeal. He's mysterious in a way that he wouldn't be if we knew too much. I'd rather be left wanting more than get too much.
80clamairy
Sorry I took so long to get in here and add my two cents. I did enjoy this one, though it seemed to drag just a wee bit for me in places. I enjoyed the magic/religious system, and thought it extremely pagany, with a different god/goddess for every season. And one extra for the stragglers!
I agree with >65 jillmwo: and her take on the 'maiden, matron, crone' thing, though I had not picked up on it myself. Well done, Jill.
I have to say that one of the things I enjoyed about this book the most was the humor. There was quite a bit of it, and I found it a breath of fresh air.
I agree with >65 jillmwo: and her take on the 'maiden, matron, crone' thing, though I had not picked up on it myself. Well done, Jill.
I have to say that one of the things I enjoyed about this book the most was the humor. There was quite a bit of it, and I found it a breath of fresh air.
82fuzzi
>81 Narilka: it starts slow, but gets good. This, coming from a CJ Cherryh fan, so I'm used to the roller coaster "slow start, sudden drop" style of writing ;)
83Narilka
>82 fuzzi: I'm 7.5 chapters in now. It's interesting and I like Caz but I find it easy to set down the book down and do other things instead of reading. I think I'm getting close to that sudden drop? I'm dying to engage more with this story.
84fuzzi
>83 Narilka: I don't have the book "at hand" to check, but it should be ramping up shortly.
85Narilka
Finished Ch 17 which is a bit over half way and I'm finally caught up in the story. I know about the family curse and Cazaril's illness. Tiedez just murdered all the animals and indirectly likely his half-brother without knowing the lies he'd been told. I kind of wish Caz had let the doctor try to remove that tumor just to see if he even could. In theory he'd live through it since the gods have a plan for him and it would let him be rid of the demon :D
86fuzzi
>85 Narilka: aha! That drop gotcha, didn't it?
What got me sucked in was Caztrying to kill Dondo by magic .
What got me sucked in was Caz
87Narilka
>86 fuzzi: Yeah and the repercussion. Definitely waiting to see how that all plays out.
88fuzzi
>87 Narilka: ::bursting to reveal::
89Narilka
Through Ch 25 So the marriage didn't break the curse. I have no idea how Caz is going to pull this out other than praying to the 5 and hoping for a more obvious sign. Not a whole lot of book left to go.
I'm glad Bertriz challenged him to find a solution for himself too though I could see this ending in tragedy.
I still wish the doctor had attempted to cut out the tumor. Would have been interesting to see if that ended Caz's problem with his metaphysical passengers.
I'm glad Bertriz challenged him to find a solution for himself too though I could see this ending in tragedy.
I still wish the doctor had attempted to cut out the tumor. Would have been interesting to see if that ended Caz's problem with his metaphysical passengers.
90MrsLee
>89 Narilka: I love that you are giving your surmises as you go. Eager to hear what you think of the ending.
91fuzzi
>90 MrsLee: me too. :)
92Karlstar
What did you folks think of her concept of saints? I thought it fit in well with her theological concepts.
93Sakerfalcon
>92 Karlstar: I really liked it. It made me think that in Christianity one is declared a saint after death , and with proof of several miracles. Whereas Bujold's religion shows the gods choosing individuals to be saints while they are living. The living saint forms a channel through which the god can work and perform miracles. And as we are shown, it is a very dubious honour to be chosen for sainthood! One of the things I love most about this book is the way everything falls into place so neatly, both with the world building and the plotting. Bujold has constructed it all perfectly.
94Narilka
I finished. So my supposition wasn't too far off :) In hindsight it's a good thing the doctor didn't try to perform surgery or he'd have been taken away with the demon! It all worked out in the end.
95fuzzi
>94 Narilka: yes! And what an interesting way of handling the situation.
Are you planning on reading the next book? I've a copy on hand but have not started yet...so many books...
Are you planning on reading the next book? I've a copy on hand but have not started yet...so many books...
96Narilka
>92 Karlstar:, >93 Sakerfalcon: I like Bujold's concept of saints a lot. It fits well with her world set up. Living saints reminded me of Sebastian de Castelle's Greatcoats series, which I read first though was published several years after Chalion. What I liked even more with Bujold is that sainthood isn't necessarily forever. And since the Gods don't give very explicit instructions it can be difficult for the saint to figure out what exactly they're supposed to do. No wonder Caz and Umegat mention going crazy :)
97Narilka
>95 fuzzi: I don't own the next book. I'd be up to continue the series as a group if anyone else would. On my own, it would probably wait a while.
98Sakerfalcon
>96 Narilka: Yes to all of that! Now that you've finished I can say that one of the things I love most about the book is how all the pieces fall into place at the end. Even on my first reading I was skeptical that Cazaril's idea of saving Iselle if she marries "out" of the curse would be successful. Yet without that, the incident on the galley with Bergon wouldn't have counted as one of Caz's three deaths for Chalion. It's so well plotted, and you can see why Caz is horrified when he realised just how far back the gods' intervention goes.
>97 Narilka: I would be up for joining a group read of Paladin of souls. No rush though.
>97 Narilka: I would be up for joining a group read of Paladin of souls. No rush though.
99fuzzi
>98 Sakerfalcon: no rush, indeed. Maybe it could fit one of the SFF Kit challenges later in the year? I'll check.
April is "series"?
Full list of challenges for SFF Kit is here:
https://www.librarything.com/topic/325535#7291705
April is "series"?
Full list of challenges for SFF Kit is here:
https://www.librarything.com/topic/325535#7291705
100Karlstar
>97 Narilka: I'm a maybe on Paladin of Souls, I read it not too long ago, but I think I'd have a much different perspective on it now.
101clamairy
I will join in if enough others are planning to. I really did enjoy her writing style. (I was complaining that she'll plod along a bit, and then WHAAP you upside the head a few times before going back to plodding, but that made it a bit more fun.)
102fuzzi
>101 clamairy: Bujold reminds me in some ways of CJ Cherryh, easing you into the story and then WHAM. And not explaining everything up front, but letting you learn bit by bit as you read.
103Narilka
How soon were you all thinking? Maybe in Q2? Or did you think earlier? The blurb from book two seems it's set a couple years later and follows a different lead character.
106fuzzi
>103 Narilka: Q2 works for me, as there's a "series" challenge in April for SFF Kit that I can tie it to.
109fuzzi
>108 Narilka: I second April.
110clamairy
April works! One of you organized people needs to remind the rest of us when it gets closer.
I'm going to leave this thread pinned for now.
I'm going to leave this thread pinned for now.
111Maddz
Already read it, and now onto The Hallowed Hunt. Some more chapters read while waiting for Margaret to finish at the hospital.
I'll save my comments until April.
I'll save my comments until April.