I Think, Therefore I Jest: EFs recursive IJ reading thread
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1absurdeist
Jesters, start your engines. Four days and counting ....
"To Jest, or Not to Jest" still hasn't been taken as a personal IJ reading thread title, if anybody wants it.
"To Jest, or Not to Jest" still hasn't been taken as a personal IJ reading thread title, if anybody wants it.
2absurdeist
It is now 01.01.2013 in Europe....
I've read the initial Year of Glad section probably more times than any other part of the novel. Of course the first time I read it, I didn't really get that I was reading, in chronological terms, the end of the novel, and since the novel is so long and filled w/an arguably absurd amount of information, by the time I got to the last page, I did not remember the important details of Year of Glad, and so felt sort of gypped with how Wallace ended the novel so abruptly, also not yet realizing that IJ itself, and not just its content, is a recursive loop, and so only when I looped back a second time, understood the order of subsidized time, that Year of Glad was the end of the novel even though it begins the novel, did the book start making some much needed organizational sense.
There's a ton of phrases that jumped out at me in Year of Glad this time. I'll write something on them next post....
I've read the initial Year of Glad section probably more times than any other part of the novel. Of course the first time I read it, I didn't really get that I was reading, in chronological terms, the end of the novel, and since the novel is so long and filled w/an arguably absurd amount of information, by the time I got to the last page, I did not remember the important details of Year of Glad, and so felt sort of gypped with how Wallace ended the novel so abruptly, also not yet realizing that IJ itself, and not just its content, is a recursive loop, and so only when I looped back a second time, understood the order of subsidized time, that Year of Glad was the end of the novel even though it begins the novel, did the book start making some much needed organizational sense.
There's a ton of phrases that jumped out at me in Year of Glad this time. I'll write something on them next post....
3zenomax
I'm going to need your help with this, I can see that.
For one brief moment I thought you were saying that, on finishing the last page we had to immediately start reading IJ again....
For one brief moment I thought you were saying that, on finishing the last page we had to immediately start reading IJ again....
4absurdeist
Happy to be of whatever assistance I'm able to be, or to direct you toward.
For one brief moment I thought you were saying that, on finishing the last page we had to immediately start reading IJ again....
Yes. That's it! The book never ends, just like Hopscotch can be read in such a manner that it never ends. Once you begin IJ, Z, you need never read another book again. Isn't this exciting?! ;-)
For one brief moment I thought you were saying that, on finishing the last page we had to immediately start reading IJ again....
Yes. That's it! The book never ends, just like Hopscotch can be read in such a manner that it never ends. Once you begin IJ, Z, you need never read another book again. Isn't this exciting?! ;-)
5absurdeist
some Year of Glad observations
Beginning w/the first sentence, Wallace is outlining some core themes of Infinite Jest: Detachment, disembodiment, depersonalization, all resulting in disorientation -- a possible source, if I may borrow zenomax's idea -- to the "realities behind the realities."
Seated at the conference table for his admissions interview to get into Univ. of AZ, Hal Incandenza, in observing the three Deans seated nearby, does not "know which face belongs to whom." He is uncertain of basic points of reference, his position in relation to others, for instance: to CTs (his surrogate mouthpiece) seated location is "to what I hope is my immediate right" (boldness mine). Hope? Hal doesn't know for sure. Is Hal really "in here," or deceiving himself?
Beginning w/the first sentence, Wallace is outlining some core themes of Infinite Jest: Detachment, disembodiment, depersonalization, all resulting in disorientation -- a possible source, if I may borrow zenomax's idea -- to the "realities behind the realities."
Seated at the conference table for his admissions interview to get into Univ. of AZ, Hal Incandenza, in observing the three Deans seated nearby, does not "know which face belongs to whom." He is uncertain of basic points of reference, his position in relation to others, for instance: to CTs (his surrogate mouthpiece) seated location is "to what I hope is my immediate right" (boldness mine). Hope? Hal doesn't know for sure. Is Hal really "in here," or deceiving himself?
6absurdeist
Hal says he is "in here" -- in the conference room -- but he isn't confident nor in control of his body: "I believe I appear normal." (boldness mine). You believe, Hal? You mean you're not able to just know?
"Normal," what for most of us is autonomic behavior in a meeting: appearing pleasant w/an approachable demeanor, appropriately crossing our legs and arms, making eye contact, following the give-and-take of a conversations natural cues, aren't automatic responses at all for Hal. The communication and appearance problem of Hal's, in fact, is so obvious to staff at E.T.A. that he's been coached on how to "appear normal" for this important meeting, and w/not very successful results. Because just his silence is abnormal and increasingly awkward-in-the-extreme, in an admissions meeting when Hal himself (and not his surrogate-mouthpiece-coach, C.T.) is supposed to be selling himself w/his own voice, showcasing his strengths and spotlighting why he should be selected for admission into the university. It's an interview, Hal! The idea is to talk, right?
But Hal is so far gone, he can't talk intellligibly, he's essentially attempting to act like a human being participating in a university admissions meeting, rather than just being a human being ... being himself. But who is he? Who is Hal? Does he even know? How can he when he's become disembodied from himself, disconnected from the reality of his circumstances? He thinks he knows what he isn't, as he'll protest later in the chapter that "I am not a machine," but he has more in common at this lowest point in his life with a machine; with his namesake 9000 series computer of 2001: A Space Odyssey infamy, for that matter, than he does with just being ... just being Hal (whoever that is), the human being.
Hal is most assuredly a veritable machine at this point in the novel, and just as computers aren't always programmed for every possible contingency in a crisis, so neither has Hal been coached/programmed thoroughly enough to survive this fateful, forever life-altering, crisis.
"Normal," what for most of us is autonomic behavior in a meeting: appearing pleasant w/an approachable demeanor, appropriately crossing our legs and arms, making eye contact, following the give-and-take of a conversations natural cues, aren't automatic responses at all for Hal. The communication and appearance problem of Hal's, in fact, is so obvious to staff at E.T.A. that he's been coached on how to "appear normal" for this important meeting, and w/not very successful results. Because just his silence is abnormal and increasingly awkward-in-the-extreme, in an admissions meeting when Hal himself (and not his surrogate-mouthpiece-coach, C.T.) is supposed to be selling himself w/his own voice, showcasing his strengths and spotlighting why he should be selected for admission into the university. It's an interview, Hal! The idea is to talk, right?
But Hal is so far gone, he can't talk intellligibly, he's essentially attempting to act like a human being participating in a university admissions meeting, rather than just being a human being ... being himself. But who is he? Who is Hal? Does he even know? How can he when he's become disembodied from himself, disconnected from the reality of his circumstances? He thinks he knows what he isn't, as he'll protest later in the chapter that "I am not a machine," but he has more in common at this lowest point in his life with a machine; with his namesake 9000 series computer of 2001: A Space Odyssey infamy, for that matter, than he does with just being ... just being Hal (whoever that is), the human being.
Hal is most assuredly a veritable machine at this point in the novel, and just as computers aren't always programmed for every possible contingency in a crisis, so neither has Hal been coached/programmed thoroughly enough to survive this fateful, forever life-altering, crisis.
7absurdeist
Hal had contradicted himself a year earlier, Nov. 3rd, Y.D.A.U., regarding his not being a machine, in one of his Big Buddy sessions (pp. 117-118), where he mentored pre-teen students on life and tennis at E.T.A., selling his younger cohorts on the idea that the tennis drills and repetitions of E.T.A. life are vitally necessary so that your muscle's movements "sink and soak" into your "hardware, the C.P.S. The Machine language ... The Machine language of muscles.. What he's describing is a body and mind becoming so conditioned to stimuli (the 3-D dynamics of tennis) that thought-reactions cease, replaced by autonomic responses, much as a computer is programmed by endless repetitive data in order to "react" to input.
In the essay Wallace wrote on Tracy Austin's autobiography, I believe it's titled "How Tracy Austin Broke My Heart," he related how disappointed he was by her (whom he'd once had a teenage crush on, and I'm paraphrasing from memory) "banal analytical" ability. She wrote in cliches and surface insights, and Wallace, expecting more from her, theorized her lack of depth was because the 100% of her body and mind that she had to exert 24/7 into tennis, turning her mind and muscle's movements into freed-of-thought, autonomic reactions, had drastically reduced, if not entirely eliminated, her ability to think or analyze except inside the rectilinear confines of the tennis court and its practiced cliches -- in that context of drills and repetitions. Wallace lamented that it was as if Tracy Austin's ability to critically think outside of the narrow focus of tennis did not exist for her, and could not because of her early formative years of hyper-conditioning. Which is the same kind of conditioning Hal and his fellow inmate students underwent.
In the essay Wallace wrote on Tracy Austin's autobiography, I believe it's titled "How Tracy Austin Broke My Heart," he related how disappointed he was by her (whom he'd once had a teenage crush on, and I'm paraphrasing from memory) "banal analytical" ability. She wrote in cliches and surface insights, and Wallace, expecting more from her, theorized her lack of depth was because the 100% of her body and mind that she had to exert 24/7 into tennis, turning her mind and muscle's movements into freed-of-thought, autonomic reactions, had drastically reduced, if not entirely eliminated, her ability to think or analyze except inside the rectilinear confines of the tennis court and its practiced cliches -- in that context of drills and repetitions. Wallace lamented that it was as if Tracy Austin's ability to critically think outside of the narrow focus of tennis did not exist for her, and could not because of her early formative years of hyper-conditioning. Which is the same kind of conditioning Hal and his fellow inmate students underwent.
8beelzebubba
He can still play tennis, but he can't communicate ("I cannot make myself understood now.") I'm wondering--was Himself really hallucinating about Hal not speaking to him? Or did Hal think he was talking to him, but for some reason couldn't? In the professional conversationalist chapter, until Hal discovers it's Himself, they are able to communicate. Afterwards, he can't hear Hal. Is he only subvocalizing with his father? I find this chapter especially heartbreaking, not only for it showing how Hal and his dad aren't able to communicate, but also for Himself having just discovered Avril's infidelities, not to mention her connection to the Quebecois movement.
Didn't DFW originally want to begin the book with this chapter, but was talked out of it?
Didn't DFW originally want to begin the book with this chapter, but was talked out of it?
9anna_in_pdx
8: I don't think they communicate very well even before Hal figures out who the conversationalist is. Himself does most of the talking. I love the sound effects.
10absurdeist
8> Didn't DFW originally want to begin the book with this chapter, but was talked out of it?
Bubba, I have a vague recollection of this. Was this mentioned in the D.T. Max bio?
On your paragraph above, man that's difficult to answer/know for sure isn't it? Hal was 12, putting the conversation about four years before Himself's suicide, so his alcoholism hadn't completely put him under. My sense of that chapter is that the problem w/their communication (assuming Himself wasn't hallucinating, as you suggest) was more the problem of the father's, not Hal's. Hal's able to communicate fine. Was Hal already smoking marijuana at that age? I'm not sure. Even if he was, he couldn't have been smoking it long enough for it to have negatively effected his ability to verbalize audibly in an intelligible fashion. And keep in mind, Hal, even as a hardcore abuser at 17, had no problem being understood by Mario, Orin, or his friends and underlings in their Big Buddy sessions.
So, who's the problem then? I say Himself was the problem. Himself didn't like how Hal was responding to his interrogations (what 12 year old would?) and so really wasn't listening to Hal's responses, instead talking over Hal and demanding of him that he respond in a manner he wanted him to respond, rather than accepting Hal where he was at or w/what he had to say.
9> For you, Anna: SPFFFT ... MYURP (pardon me, all that carbonation) ... SHULGSPAHHH ...
Bubba, I have a vague recollection of this. Was this mentioned in the D.T. Max bio?
On your paragraph above, man that's difficult to answer/know for sure isn't it? Hal was 12, putting the conversation about four years before Himself's suicide, so his alcoholism hadn't completely put him under. My sense of that chapter is that the problem w/their communication (assuming Himself wasn't hallucinating, as you suggest) was more the problem of the father's, not Hal's. Hal's able to communicate fine. Was Hal already smoking marijuana at that age? I'm not sure. Even if he was, he couldn't have been smoking it long enough for it to have negatively effected his ability to verbalize audibly in an intelligible fashion. And keep in mind, Hal, even as a hardcore abuser at 17, had no problem being understood by Mario, Orin, or his friends and underlings in their Big Buddy sessions.
So, who's the problem then? I say Himself was the problem. Himself didn't like how Hal was responding to his interrogations (what 12 year old would?) and so really wasn't listening to Hal's responses, instead talking over Hal and demanding of him that he respond in a manner he wanted him to respond, rather than accepting Hal where he was at or w/what he had to say.
9> For you, Anna: SPFFFT ... MYURP (pardon me, all that carbonation) ... SHULGSPAHHH ...
12absurdeist
Thanks, bas. The more I read IJ, and reflect on it, the more mysterious the book becomes.
13absurdeist
This novel is some compelling depressing shit. Granted, it's genius depressing shit, but at page 277, I blacked out from its genius, and had my SO not found me in time, I don't know what would have become of me.
The novel, I've just discovered -- a personal epiphany -- is an addictive Entertainment itself. The very book is like the all-consuming Entertainment it depicts!
I was reading IJ outside on the patio late last evening, and my wife discovered me this morning with long strands of what she at first believed was drool coagulated from the hairs of my goatee (or seemingly coagulated); but the unusual Arctic cold spell we've had here in sunny SoCal this past week, apparently froze my drool, for when my wife inspected me closer, after vainly attempting to arouse me from the deep, hypothermic slumber of my Adirondack chair, saw that what she thought was initially drool, was in fact crystallized and glinting in the sunlight -- icicles!
Infinite Jest, in effect, gave me icicles overnight. I've finally concluded that this book is dangerous (potentially lethal) to read more than once. In fact it is clearly becoming as lethal to me as the Entertainment it depicts. Therefore, I cannot, in good conscience, advise anyone to continue reading it. I'm afraid I've had to discontinue my own reading of it, and certainly hope anybody else involved in this ill-advised "group read," will also put the book down asap before it gives you icicles, or worse!
The novel, I've just discovered -- a personal epiphany -- is an addictive Entertainment itself. The very book is like the all-consuming Entertainment it depicts!
I was reading IJ outside on the patio late last evening, and my wife discovered me this morning with long strands of what she at first believed was drool coagulated from the hairs of my goatee (or seemingly coagulated); but the unusual Arctic cold spell we've had here in sunny SoCal this past week, apparently froze my drool, for when my wife inspected me closer, after vainly attempting to arouse me from the deep, hypothermic slumber of my Adirondack chair, saw that what she thought was initially drool, was in fact crystallized and glinting in the sunlight -- icicles!
Infinite Jest, in effect, gave me icicles overnight. I've finally concluded that this book is dangerous (potentially lethal) to read more than once. In fact it is clearly becoming as lethal to me as the Entertainment it depicts. Therefore, I cannot, in good conscience, advise anyone to continue reading it. I'm afraid I've had to discontinue my own reading of it, and certainly hope anybody else involved in this ill-advised "group read," will also put the book down asap before it gives you icicles, or worse!
14Mich_Smith
Hi, everybody. I am looking for such reading group. Tonight, I would start the Satanic Verses by Salman Reshidie. If anyone is interested to start reading Infinite Jest after about two weeks, we could start together. I am slow reader, I intend to finish Infinite Jest at around May.
15Mich_Smith
Anyway it is good to meet you.
16absurdeist
If I were you, I wouldn't be so intent on starting Infinite Jest in two weeks. I wouldn't start it at all were I you.
I suppose it's good to meet you too.
I suppose it's good to meet you too.
17sacpop
The very book is like the all-consuming Entertainment it depicts
My thoughts exactly. First time through I used to regularly swear out loud in wonder at what I was reading.
One sustained section is I think, and this is a ridiculous thing to say, the best writing I've ever read.
My thoughts exactly. First time through I used to regularly swear out loud in wonder at what I was reading.
One sustained section is I think, and this is a ridiculous thing to say, the best writing I've ever read.
18absurdeist
What section is that, sac pop?
19anna_in_pdx
EF if you remember that is probably why in the bio it is brought out that DFW wanted to subtitle it "a failed entertainment". That keeps coming back to me as I read it. I am in about the same place in the book and it is so compelling yet depressing.
20Mich_Smith
Thanks!
22slickdpdx
I love the book but Eschaton was a chore. A bit dated.A bit strained as writing and as comedy. A bit too long.
23MeditationesMartini
I played Diplomacy in high school and I disagree categorically. It was the first place in the book that I felt like Wallace was putting his finger on an aspect of the (my) human (high school) experience that I'd never seen described in print before.
25anna_in_pdx
I just adored the eschaton section. I wanted to read the whole thing out loud to my "wargaming" partner. It was epic. In the real, old fashioned sense of the term. I can't wait to get to it this time!
26absurdeist
19> I'll have to pull the bio back out and reread what was said about "A Failed Entertainment." I don't remember the specifics.
I wonder if Wallace was preempting his critics with this concept of "A Failed Entertainment". I find it difficult to believe he truly believed that about IJ. Could "A Failed Entertainment" have been referring to the cartridge entertainment, JOIs magnum opus, his film Infinite Jest? Could the film be "a failed entertainment" in that -- conjecture coming -- it failed to shock or rouse Hal out of the silent treatment he was giving Himself, assuming, of course, Himself ever had the opportunity to "test" Infinite Jest IV or V out on his son at some point, as perhaps a last desperate measure to reach him?
I wonder if Wallace was preempting his critics with this concept of "A Failed Entertainment". I find it difficult to believe he truly believed that about IJ. Could "A Failed Entertainment" have been referring to the cartridge entertainment, JOIs magnum opus, his film Infinite Jest? Could the film be "a failed entertainment" in that -- conjecture coming -- it failed to shock or rouse Hal out of the silent treatment he was giving Himself, assuming, of course, Himself ever had the opportunity to "test" Infinite Jest IV or V out on his son at some point, as perhaps a last desperate measure to reach him?
27Sandydog1
Fearless Freakin' leader, bow out if you must! You're an IJ veteran and are still contributing, so all is appreciated, and all is well with the world.
My noob reflection on the first 4/19ths is very predictable. This has been a weird alternation of pure sadismo drudgery and electrifying fascination. But once in a while there's a peaceful respite. 'Like that Andy-Rooney-suddenly-morphed-genius Desideratan section. The one that precedes the discussion on tattoos.
"That concentrating intently on anything is very hard work."
My noob reflection on the first 4/19ths is very predictable. This has been a weird alternation of pure sadismo drudgery and electrifying fascination. But once in a while there's a peaceful respite. 'Like that Andy-Rooney-suddenly-morphed-genius Desideratan section. The one that precedes the discussion on tattoos.
"That concentrating intently on anything is very hard work."
28absurdeist
A friend commented that his experience of IJ is different this time around because of the D.T. Max bio, and I'd have to say mine is too. The first time I read IJ, I perhaps naively believed that Wallace had just done one monumentally huge job of research, particularly with the addiction and mental illness angles (read his "this is a work of fiction" spoof on the front copyright page that seems to suggest research rather than autobiography). Knowing now that the book is as autobiographical as it is makes it both better and yet worse of a reading experience for me. And I think the worse is winning out now. I enjoyed it so much better when I didn't know about Wallace's personal life. It was rollicking fun then, now it's a sad sludge.
Even so, I wouldn't say I've abandoned it for good, just taken a break to let those pesky icicles melt.
Even so, I wouldn't say I've abandoned it for good, just taken a break to let those pesky icicles melt.
29solla
I will soon be taking a break as well. My digital borrow will be reclaimed on Friday, when I will put it on hold again, and probably get it back in another month. I haven't had any icicle events, but have nodded off on the bus, especially coming home - this isn't unique to Infinite Jest though. I am between a third and halfway through - I am still interested but not compelled.
30absurdeist
I'm so glad you'll be taking a break from IJ, Solla. There really are lots of better books out there to read. Why don't you try Jurgen by James Branch Cabell? A smart man's (and smart woman's, I'm sure) fantasy. Though "fantastic" is more apt. I've just returned to it. It was the book I put down once this regrettable "group read" of IJ began on Jan. 1.
31solla
I finally looked it up and the kindle edition of Infinite Jest was only 3.99. So, I am in peril again, except for my back. I will take it in small doses, now that I can.
32kswolff
NB: There's an excerpt of Infinite Jest in the new Boston Noir 2: the classics, specifically the section involving the junkies walking around Boston and the harrowing/hilarious/tragicomic backstory involving a can of macadamia nuts, a heart attack, and many dead Shriners.
33Jesse_wiedinmyer
The first time I read IJ, I perhaps naively believed that Wallace had just done one monumentally huge job of research, particularly with the addiction and mental illness angles (read his "this is a work of fiction" spoof on the front copyright page that seems to suggest research rather than autobiography).
I dunno about that. There's massive overlap here even with his non-fiction. And let me tell you, if I were DFW's mom, I would have murdered the fucker when this book came out.
I dunno about that. There's massive overlap here even with his non-fiction. And let me tell you, if I were DFW's mom, I would have murdered the fucker when this book came out.
35Jesse_wiedinmyer
Kind of funny, as my family dynamics are about as good as those represented in the book. So maybe not really, but after reading the DT Max, I was like, ok, so Avril Incandenza shares some of his mom's characteristics, then...
I kept getting a very Tarantino/Urban Legend sort of feel throughout the book (to the point that it was getting somewhat aggravating at times.)
I kept getting a very Tarantino/Urban Legend sort of feel throughout the book (to the point that it was getting somewhat aggravating at times.)
36slickdpdx
Hey Mom, it's not you, its just taking some thoughts I had about you to extreme places. What's the big deal, right? Another reason I would never write a novel (the first being lack of creativity and the second lack of discipline).
37anna_in_pdx
36: Yes, that is so true. I don't want any of my family members recognizing themselves or negative versions thereof. I can only imagine how DFW's mom, who by the account in the DT Max book was a perfectly nice person, felt in reading about Avril Incandenza.
38slickdpdx
Javier Marias's Dark Back of Time is all over that issue.
39Jesse_wiedinmyer
So, I'm guessing that my understanding of the book worked at pretty much the first and second order levels (yes, it was obvious that the beginning was the end, etc.), but I'm definitely missing the big pic at the moment. So, where to go for further elucidation?
40Jesse_wiedinmyer
Hey Mom, it's not you, its just taking some thoughts I had about you to extreme places.
The flat incestuous/perverse things in the book are pretty nuts...
The flat incestuous/perverse things in the book are pretty nuts...
