Group read: Cecilia by Fanny Burney

Cecilia; or, The Memoirs Of An Heiress by Frances Burney (1782)

"Oh! It is only a novel!" replies the young lady, while she lays down her book with affected indifference, or momentary shame. "It is only Cecilia, or Camilla, or Belinda"; or, in short, only some work in which the greatest powers of the mind are displayed, in which the most thorough knowledge of human nature, the happiest delineation of its varieties, the liveliest effusions of wit and humour, are conveyed to the world in the best-chosen language...
---Fanny Burney's #1 Fan

Hello, all! Welcome to the next step in the Virago Chronological Read Project, a group read of Fanny Burney's Cecilia; or, The Memoirs Of An Heiress.

This was Burney's second novel, her follow-up to the enormously popular Evelina, and written under very different conditions. Evelina had been published anonymously, and it was not until after the novel had become a critical and popular success that the author's identity was revealed. With Cecilia, even though Burney's name did not appear on the title page (which would have been "immodest"), everyone was aware that there was a new novel "by the author of Evelina". In short, there was enormous tacit pressure on Burney to match or surpass her first work. (And even today, we know how often a second novel is a disappointment.)

Critical consensus, however, was that she had succeeded brilliantly: Cecilia was an even greater success than Evelina, and widely and glowingly reviewed. However---even those who praised the novel most had certain reservations about it; and those reservations are precisely why this long and complex novel retains its power and importance to this day.

Those of you who participated in the group read of Sarah Scott's Millenium Hall will recall that Scott's characters choose to remove themselves from the patriarchal social structure. There was agreement within the reading group that there was a measure of wish-fulfilment fantasy about this situation, in that all of Scott's women are financially and circumstantially in a position to live an independent life.

In Cecilia, in contrast, Fanny Burney shows us the reality of the times: that even for a young woman who is an orphan and an heiress (indeed, particularly for such a woman), there was no such escape. Burney places her heroine in the middle of a society ruled by men, governed by convention, and where money is all-powerful, and shows us Cecilia's constant struggle for autonomy, and to live up to her own ideas of right---and how society works to prevent her succeeding.

This is a novel where everything is rendered in shades of grey---even its heroine. Burney starts by telling us that:

A strong sense of DUTY, a fervent desire to ACT RIGHT, were the ruling characteristics of her mind...

...and then develops her plot so that Cecilia is repeatedly placed in situations where she does not know where her duty lies, and cannot be sure what is right and what is wrong.

Furthermore, from Cecilia herself downwards, there are very, very few unmixed characters in Cecilia. There are a few comprehensively bad and selfish ones, but even those we tend to classify as "good" have obvious and discomforting failings.

It is this that bothered the reading public of the 1780s, who weren't used to such a mixed morality. They were particularly disturbed by the fact that Burney carried her scheme right through to the end of her story. In place of either the comprehensive tragedy, or conversely the manufactured happiness, that they were used to in novels at the time, Burney gave them a realistic compromise---and they didn't like it. This wasn't what novels were "for".

However, these very qualities are why Cecilia is such a landmark work of fiction, both in the overall development of the novel, and with respect to women's fiction in particular. It resisted all the existing social pressure for simplistically resolved stories of obvious good and bad, right and wrong, and insisted that realism was more important. With Cecilia, Fanny Burney helped to turn the English novel from a mere conveyor of "lessons" into something more complex and profound.

Character list for Cecilia:

(I think this might be a good idea!)

Cecilia Beverley - an orphan and heiress

Mr Harrel - one of Cecilia's guardians; a spendthrift
Mrs Harrel - formally Cecilia's childhood friend
Mr Arnott - Mrs Harrel's brother

Mr Briggs - another of Cecilia's guardians, who has charge of her fortune; a vulgar miser

Mr Delvile - the third of Cecilia's guardians, a very pround and birth-conscious man
Mrs Delvile - his wife
Mr Mortimer Delvile - their son and only child

Mr Monckton - a gentleman residing in Cecilia's neighbourhood in the country
Lady Margaret Monckton - his elderly wife
Miss Bennet - her companion

Mrs Charlton - an elderly lady with whom Cecilia lived after the death of her uncle

Mr Belfield - a young man with a family background in trade, but eager to become a gentleman
Mrs Belfield - his rather vulgar mother
Henrietta Belfield - his sister

Sir Robert Floyer - Mr Harrel's friend; an arrogant man with designs on Cecilia
Mr Gosport - a witty London gentleman who befriends Cecilia
Mr Morrice - an impetuous and pushy young lawyer
Captain Aresby - in the militia; a would-be ladies' man, and a great user of 'jargon'

Miss Larolles - leader of London's VOLUBLES set
Miss Leeson - leader of London's SUPERCILIOUS set
Mr Meadows - leader of London's INSENSIBILISTS set

Mr Albany - a strange man who works for the benefit of the poor

Mrs Hill - the wife of a carpenter critically injured while working for Mr Harrel

Before we get started, I think it would be a good idea to agree on a reading schedule for Cecilia.

Ordinarily, I don't like to impose a schedule on group reads, which to me makes it feel too much like "homework" rather than something to be enjoyed. However, Cecilia is such a long novel that in this case, I think it might work better if we try to maintain a minimum pace. With a book of this length, I think dragging it out too much is self-defeating; it becomes hard to remember what happened at the beginning as you move towards the end, and it makes good discussion very difficult.

Cecilia consists of:

5 volumes
10 books
102 chapters

My suggestion is that everyone tries for a minimum of two chapters per day / fourteen chapters per week. At this pace the novel will take between six and seven weeks, finishing in the middle of December. Obviously, moving more rapidly than that is not a problem, but I think we should all agree to aim at not going any slower.

How does everyone feel about that? Too fast / too slow? Does anyone have an alternative suggestion?

The only other thing is to mention the "rules" for this read---it's just the usual stuff:

1. If you are unfamiliar with this novel, please don't read the introduction before starting!
2. I would also advise avoiding any notes to your edition, which often contain unexpected spoilers. If you have any questions about anything, please post them here.
3. When posting, please identify the chapter you are referring to at the beginning of your post, in bold. Be mindful of other readers---leave gaps in your post for minor spoilery points, or use the spoiler tags for major issues.

So...who's in?? :)

Me! I'm just here to drop my star for the moment, but will be back to read up on the first 5 posts very soon!

I'm in, Liz. And the schedule looks reasonable. May I suggest that you post something once a week reminding us of where we are supposed to be, and our goal for the week ahead? Also what day do we "officially" begin?

Thanks as always for guiding us in this journey!

I'm in! I'm really excited about this group read and I like the reading schedule. I don't like dragging long books out too long, but it's a lot of words to get through!

I'm in too - Thanks Liz.

I agree with Laura - a weekly posting would be of great help to keep us(me) on track given the size of the work.

I think we start tomorrow so a posting every seven (7) days would work, wouldn't it?

Welcome, Ilana, Laura, Jennifer and Trish!

It sounds as if we have a good consensus about the pace of the read; I am happy to post gentle reminders of where we should be up to. :)

I'm ready. I don't have a Virago edition but will be using my Kindle.

>11 lyzard: Thank you Liz! I'm sure you'll be kind. :)

>12 CDVicarage: I'm using my Kindle as well, even though I have the Virago edition. It's just easier to handle.

I'm in too! >2 lyzard: Has made me even more excited about reading this. I think the reading schedule in >4 lyzard: sounds reasonable and weekly reminders of where we're up to sounds like a good idea. I have the Oxford World's Classics edition.

Hi, Kerry and Heather - thank you for joining us!

I may join in, Liz. I'll try to keep up. I have several other books that I was planning to read before year end, but this sounds like one I will enjoy. I will also be reading the Kindle version, although my daughter has the Virago edition.

We'd love to have you, Colleen! Hopefully the agreed schedule will work for you too.

I'm also working off the Oxford World's Classics edition, which keeps the original volume / book / chapter breakdown. Can people let me know if they need variant chapter headings listed - i.e. does anyone's edition number straight through to Chapter 102?

My Kindle version has 10 Books, each with chapters numbered and titled. Hopefully, that's what I should have. :)

Yes, that should be fine.

I'm in, although I know I'll be way behind, with a pile of library books next to my bed. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a 1992 Oxford World's Classics paperback edition, so I just can't say no. I love the cover:



The Hon Frances Duncombe by Thomas Gainsborough

The detail in the dress is amazing, even on this old cover.

Welcome, Kathy! I have a different edition, but with the same image. :)

Would you consider her a redhead? (I'm also of the ginger-haired persuasion, so be careful with your answer....)

Hey, you've come to the right place! - we have at least one other red-head here. :D

She looks more light brown on mine (lighter than this image):

>19 NanaCC: my Kindle edition is similar: 10 books, and within each book the chapters are numbered from 1 to whatever.

Well - I think we might get started...

Volume I / Book I / Chapter I

...in which there is so much I want to say, I feel like it's safer not to say any of it. :)

Instead, I think I will simply advise everyone to read this chapter very carefully. Burney provides us with an enormous amount of information at the outset, some of which does not become relevant for quite some time.

Liz, can you explain this phrase in the opening pages?This concerns the inheritance from her Uncle:
"no other restriction than that of annexing her name, I f she married, to the disposal of her hand and her riches."

Ah, well spotted - a remark thrown in oh-so-casually at the end of the third paragraph of a five-volume novel! :D

It means that anyone wanting Cecilia's fortune as well as Cecilia has to take her name and become "Mr Beverley"...

Ohhhh well that's a bit tricky isn't it?!

Isn't it??

The other thing to consider here is whether or not Cecilia is aware of that clause---there's no reason to assume that anyone has discussed the terms of her inheritance with her, just because it's her inheritance.

>23 kac522:, >24 lyzard: I have the same cover on my edition too. There does seem to be a ginger-ish hue to some of her hair but it's hard to tell - I think she may have powder on her hair too? What really struck me was how very pale her skin is. The full painting is here and you can zoom in and see details of her dress.

Slight digression over, I've read Volume I / Book I / Chapter I and had a question on the underlined section below about Mr Monckton:

'He knew that the acquaintance of Cecilia was confined to a circle of which he was himself the principal ornament, that she had rejected all the proposals of marriage which had hitherto been made to her, and, as he had sedulously watched her from her earliest years, he had reason to believe that her heart had escaped any dangerous impression. This being her situation, he had long looked upon her as his future property; as such he had indulged his admiration, and as such he had already appropriated her estate, though he had not more vigilantly inspected into her sentiments, than he had guarded his own from a similar scrutiny.'

By appropriated her estate, does this mean he has mentally appropriated it (thinking he's going to marry Cecilia so it will come to him) or has he actually got hold of her money somehow? I don't think he's one of her trustees so I assume this means the former but I wasn't sure if I was missing something.

>31 lyzard: 'The other thing to consider here is whether or not Cecilia is aware of that clause---there's no reason to assume that anyone has discussed the terms of her inheritance with her, just because it's her inheritance.'

Oooh - I hadn't thought of that!

>32 souloftherose:

We also need to remember that when people said 'fair' of a girl at this time, they meant her skin and not her hair.

Volume I / Book I / Chapter I

Mentally is the correct reading of that; he is already planning for his future with Cecilia, or at least with her fortune.

And apropos, this is the phrase that jumps out of that passage for me:

This being her situation, he had long looked upon her as his future property...

>33 lyzard: his future property
Yeah, that's creepy although consistent with the times, right? Through marriage a woman became a man's property?

Those questions have hit on several things I highlighted, too. Thanks!

I also noticed in Chapter 2 during the description of Miss Bennet - "With no other view in life than the attainment of affluence without labour" and contrasted that negative view of Miss Bennet with the description of Cecilia's deceased father as sort of elevating himself by choosing not to work. It made me think of our discussion regarding Phineas Finn for those who were involved in that. I suppose the difference is that Miss Bennet doesn't appear to have much of her own money to live on plus doesn't want to work but Cecilia's father had enough money without working.

>35 japaul22: Good point, I also thought about our Phineas Redux discussion when I read the following description of Mr Belfield in Chapter II:

He had been intended by his father for trade, but his spirit, soaring above the occupation for which he was designed, from repining led him to resist, and from resisting, to rebel. He eloped from his friends, and contrived to enter the army. But, fond of the polite arts, and eager for the acquirement of knowledge, he found not this way of life much better adapted to his inclination than that from which he had escaped; he soon grew weary of it, was reconciled to his father, and entered at the Temple. But here, too volatile for serious study, and too gay for laborious application, he made little progress: and the same quickness of parts and vigour of imagination which united with prudence, or accompanied by judgment, might have raised him to the head of his profession, being unhappily associated with fickleness and caprice, served only to impede his improvement, and obstruct his preferment. And now, with little business, and that little neglected, a small fortune, and that fortune daily becoming less, the admiration of the world, but that admiration ending simply in civility, he lived an unsettled and unprofitable life, generally caressed, and universally sought, yet careless of his interest and thoughtless of the future; devoting his time to company, his income to dissipation, and his heart to the Muses.

Me Belfield seems to have managed to dodge any labour but it sounds like he's running out of money (could he be interested in a young and beautiful heiress?). I'm struck more in Cecilia by how witty Burney's writing is - I think more so than in Evelina.

Oh yes I'm quite enjoying her wit! I'm also finding this easier reading than I expected.

>36 souloftherose: >37 lauralkeet: I also find it to be easier reading than I expected. Even though I've read Evelina, which flowed very well, but somehow, because Cecilia is such a massive volume, I thought it would be difficult to get through as well. Her writing is so fresh somehow. I got through the first four chapters without any effort at all.

eta: I have the Oxford World's Classic too with this current cover:



Such a lovely painting! Thanks heather for posting the Frick Collection link.

>34 lauralkeet:

Yes, that's the legal and practical reality of the time, but that thought still reflects poorly on the man who has it---a man planning for a second mercenary marriage before he's done with his first.

The lack of general criticism of Mr Monckton is interesting, and a tacit indictment of the society.

>35 japaul22:

We have to be careful not to confuse the 18th and 19th century attitudes to work, which were quite different.

In the second half of the 19th century, a post-industrial-revolution, rising middle-class helped to change the attitude towards work, and to introduce the idea that there was nothing inherently shameful about work (though obviously some particular professions were more 'gentlemanly' than others), and that a man should earn his living rather than parasitising his family and friends.

In the 18th century, this was not the case---a man who worked (with very few exceptions) was by definition not a gentleman. The only professions a man could follow and still be regarded as a gentleman were the church, the army and (to a point) the law. Almost anything else barred him from 'society'. (This persisted into the early 19th century, as we may see in Jane Austen's novels.)

It was different for women again, and even harder; at this time there really were no professions that a woman could pursue and be a 'lady'. Governessing, as we now understand it, was really a 19th century invention. The only path open was to be a companion, and this was not always a paid situation: you got bed and board and 'gifts', but no salary; no salary meant you were still a lady.

>35 japaul22:, >36 souloftherose:

Book I / Chapter II

With Miss Bennet we see the fine line that women had to tread - many companions put up with abuse and bad treatment, but because her goal is 'affluence without labour' rather than, say, 'a genteel subsistence', the tone is critical.

Mr Belfield (and we will hear more of his story later) is a young man trying to rise above his own birth, to make himself a gentleman. He's been educated and given opportunities unusual for someone of his position, but it hasn't provided him with an alternative income. It has, however, made him unsettled and unwilling to work.

>36 souloftherose:, >37 lauralkeet:, >38 Smiler69:

The two novels were written under very different circumstances; certainly the huge success of Evelina gave Burney confidence in her own abilities, and she really let herself go in Cecilia.

Cecilia is very long, but I don't find it an inherently difficult read; you just have to be clear about all the mystifying 18th century stuff, and the different language usages.

(And on that note I will say again---if you do find anything 'mystifying', please post about it here!)

>39 lyzard: good clarification re working - thanks!

I'm finding it fairly easy reading thus far, but there definitely are a lot of characters to keep track of!

You remind me that should update the character list up above, for Chapters I and II, at least! :)

A late starter here, but I'm in for the group read. The suggested pace sounds fine, and I'm looking forward to seeing everyone's comments.

>42 lyzard: thanks for the character list - very helpful!

>43 Sakerfalcon:

Glad you could join us, Claire!

>44 japaul22:

Do prompt me if I forget to update it.

We have touched upon the fact that Burney was a major influence on the female writers who followed her, and that Jane Austen in particular admired her, and scattered references to Burney's novels through her own.

Volume I / Book I / Chapter III of Cecilia introduces Miss Larolles, who gets name-checked in Persuasion, when Anne Eliot does something that makes her think guiltily:

She could not do so, without comparing herself with Miss Larolles, the inimitable Miss Larolles...

(The behaviour being referenced does not occur until about halfway through this book.)

There is one important aspect of Burney's influence on Austen that I want to discuss, but we can't until we're finished - someone please remind me!

Volume I / Book I / Chapter IV

    When the company was retired, and Mr Arnott only remained with the ladies, Cecilia, with no little surprise, inquired for Mr Harrel, observing that she had not seen him the whole day.
    "O!" cried his lady, "don't think of wondering at that, for it happens continually. He dines at home, indeed, in general, but otherwise I should see nothing of him at all."
    "Indeed? why, how does he fill up his time?"
    "That I am sure I cannot tell, for he never consults me about it; but I suppose much in the same way that other people do."
    "Ah, Priscilla!" cried Cecilia, with some earnestness, "how little did I ever expect to see you so much a fine lady!"

I quote this passage because I have several times before been asked about the expression 'fine lady'.

In the 18th century it was still common for marriages to be made purely for financial and social gain - usually the man's financial gain, and the woman's social gain. There was no expectation that the husband and wife would care anything about one another; it was a commercial transaction. In the 18th century, a 'fine lady' was a woman whose only interests were her clothes and her entertainment, her social success; she cared nothing for making a home or raising a family, or fulfilling any more serious duties.

There was a shift in feeling across the last decades of the 18th century: this sort of thing remained the norm for the aristocracy, but became less common amongst the middle classes (not least because of the influence of the novel, that great middle-class 'voice'). We see that here: Cecilia, fresh up from the country, is shocked to find that her old friend has made such a marriage. In particular, Mrs Harrel's utter disinterest in her husband's doings and whereabouts seems terrible to Cecilia.

In the 19th century, however, the term 'fine lady' took on another meaning. There was still the implication of a loveless marriage, but added to it was the suggestion of something like 'trophy wife'. A 'fine lady' was a possession, another way for her husband to show off his wealth and position; she would be expected to wear her elaborate clothes and jewellery, play hostess, attend functions, all by way of illustrating his importance. When the expression 'fine lady' was used at this time, it was more of a criticism of the husband.

You're all very quiet...reading away furiously, are we...? :)

That's a yes from me. I'm at chapter IX and so far haven't thought of anything to ask. But then I'm not taking notes either, just flowing along. It's a very enjoyable read.

I've been reading my "two a day" and just finished Chapter X tonight. No questions. Cecilia is certainly learning about moral dilemmas, as was mentioned upthread. I like the Harrels less with every chapter.

Just finishing some exegetical exercises due tomorrow. I plan to catch up on Friday.

I'm up to Chapter 10, but have a question about Chapter 5.

When Burney breaks up the ton into the two groups of supercilious and voluble, is she just having fun with her own observations or was this a grouping that was acknowledged at the time outside of novels?

Also, in Chapter 10, the social commentary about Mr. Harrel's refusal to pay his bills was interesting. Was it a rampant societal problem that wealthy people lived on credit and tended not to pay their bills? I've seen that in many novels, but I don't remember too many examples as explicit as this about what happens to the workers living paycheck to paycheck when their wealthy employers expect them to wait so long for payment. Was this viewed as "edgy" commentary by Burney by her contemporary readers?

>52 japaul22: Great questions, I didn't think I had any but I'd love to know the answers to those!

This also reminded me I wasn't clear on the meaning of ton. I figured out it wasn't English, and I still followed the story without having a translation, but my inquiring mind still wants to know ...

I've finished Book One, and as others have suggested, I am finding it much easier than I expected it to be. I'm also enjoying everyone's questions and comments. Poor Cecilia. What a despicable bunch of people she has met.

If this is the silence of silent enjoyment, okay then! :)

>52 japaul22:

Volume I / Book I / Chapter V

One of the reasons that Burney's novels were so popular was that she was really the first to draw her society as it really was, right down to its fads and fashions and slang. It has been frequently noted that there are many instances in the OED of one of Burney's novels being listed as 'earliest known usage' for particular words and phrases. She used the real language of the day instead of the more high-flown and formal language more common in fiction (although there's plenty of that too, where appropriate).

When people read her novels, they recognised the world described; they recognised themselves. In this case, "Volubles", "Supercilious" and "Insensibilists" were her own terms for this, but the behaviour was something real and widely known. There are recorded instances of people reacting to Cecilia with, "I know someone just like that!"

Volume I / Book I / Chapter X

It certainly was not uncommon. There were people who lived within their means and paid their bills, but this was a time of conspicuous consumption and keeping up with the herd was much more important than keeping out of debt. The Harrels represent the extreme end of this phenomenon.

Broadly speaking, the dismissive attitude to tradespeople was often pretty reprehensible, and since people at that level of society had a very narrow financial margin, non-payment of bills could be devastating.

You've been reading Trollope, Jennifer, so you've seen there how the debt situation persisted into the 19th century.

It's less that this is 'edgy' by Burney and again more that (as is true of the entire novel) she was the first to record in detail what people were familiar with on a daily basis.

>53 lauralkeet:

Laura, ton was a French word meaning 'manners' or 'breeding'; the English adopted it to refer collectively to those at the upper levels of society - "the ton" - but they also used it in its original sense - so someone might be "good ton" or "bad ton".

In the social sense, another expression sometimes used was "the upper ten thousand", which referred to the fact that the members of the aristocracy, their families and connections - "Society", in other words - numbered roughly ten thousand people.

We should note that Cecilia is presently on only the very fringe of that group; she would be expected to marry up into it.

>54 NanaCC:

Good to hear, Colleen!

Thank you Liz!

Volume I / Book I / Chapter VIII

I wanted to draw attention to an important motif in Burney's novels, which is that you can often judge her characters by their attitude to music in particular, and the arts in general.

Burney herself had a great love and respect for music and musicians. Her father was a musician, a composer and a music historian, and was friends with many other musician and singers, some of whom got written into Burney's books. This is the case here, with an appearance by Gaspare Pacchierotti, who was a very successful and popular mezzo-soprano castrato, and became a friend of the Burneys during one of his visits to London.

Burney's heroines tend to be musical, or at least have a love of music, and there are frequently passages in her books in which she expresses her frustration and disgust with those who attend the opera and concerts just to talk and be seen.

>55 lyzard: Thanks, Liz, very interesting explanations.

>56 lauralkeet:, >58 japaul22:

Welcome!

I read the first 13 chapters last night, and, as others have said, found it an easier read than I was expecting. Burney's prose isn't as formal or wordy as some other C18th writers and her characters step so vividly from the page that one can't help but get drawn in to their stories. Poor Cecilia - she really doesn't seem to have anyone to turn to at the moment. I seem to remember that Evelina met her Intended quite early on in the book, and it was obvious to the reader that they would end up married to each other, but so far there seems no obvious candidate for Cecilia.

I too noticed the unusual prominence of the theme of credit and debt and its impact on the working classes. I wonder how many of Burney's readers lived that way, and whether their consciences were at all pricked by her condemnation of their lifestyle. Of course, the episode is also a good way to show us Cecilia's virtues of compassion, justice and generosity in addition to those we have already been told of.

One thing I remember about my experience of reading Evelina was how much I cared for her, and worried about the dangers she was exposed to. I can already tell I'm going to feel the same about Cecilia. It's a good author who can make me care so strongly about her characters.

>60 Sakerfalcon:

Nice comments, Claire - thank you!

Just noting that by our schedule, everyone should be finishing up with Book I...?

I wanted to draw attention to another aspect of Mr Harrel's irresponsibility:

Volume I / Book I / Chapter III

She was now just returned from Violet Bank, the name given by Mr Harrel to a villa about twelve miles from London, where with a large party of company she had spent the Christmas holidays.

Volume I / Book I / Chapter IX

Mrs Harrel declined accompanying her in this visit, because she had appointed a surveyor to bring a plan for the inspection of Mr Harrel and herself, of a small temporary building, to be erected at Violet Bank, for the purpose of performing plays in private the ensuing Easter.

"Our bill, madam, for work done to the new Temple at Violet Bank: it was the last great work my poor husband was able to do, for it was there he met with his misfortune."

It's important to understand what is going on here. The 18th century was a great time for building and landscaping, and here we have references to two of the more popular examples of that: including amongst landscaped gardens small buildings with designs based on Greek and Roman architecture (this was the "Neo-Classical" period); and building (either permanently or temporarily) a playhouse where the family and their guests could hold amateur theatricals.

Note, however, that such structures were usually the province of those with extensive country estates (and an income to match); while Violet Bank is nothing more than a suburban villa. Mr Harrel is apeing the aristocracy in a manner that is as ridiculous as it is extravagant.

I have a question about Captain Aresby. On wikipedia he is described as: "an overly gallant officer that Cecilia first meets at the Monckton's. Mr. Gosport classfies him as part of Jargonist sect of the Ton, due to his pretentious use of fashionable jargon". Said jargon seems to use an awful lot of French words and expressions (if it's helpful at all, I've finished Book II, Chapter VI), and I couldn't help but wonder why this heavy use of French was considered so fashionable at that time? I would also surmise that once the Napoleonic wars got underway, French words must have fallen quite out of fashion. What say you Liz?

You'd know better than anyone how well Captain Aresby speaks French, Ilana! :)

As background, we need to appreciate that the English nobility was almost entirely of French descent: the nobility was "created" in the wake of the Norman Conquest, and many noble English families had French or French-derived surnames. So to an extent, the use of French terminology in fashionable circles was a reflection of that.

(To digress for a moment, those of you who have read Barchester Towers will remember the Thornes, with their pride in their Saxon heritage: these, conversely, were the descendants of the Germanic tribes that settled in England about five hundred years before the arrival of the Normans and whose descendants later regarded themselves as the "true" English people and the "true" nobility, even if those newcomer Normans had all the titles.)

So what the upstart Captain Aresby is doing is copying that, but very, very badly, in a way that exposes him as underbred, ignorant and definitely not connected with the nobility every time he opens his mouth.

The relationship between the English and the French was always a weird because of the constant cross-invasion, so while there were periods when anything French was very unpopular, there were always French influences too. (For example, the French Revolution was a peak time of anti-French feeling in England, but it was also when the refugee aristocrats were being welcomed.)

I've just finished Book II, Chapters I and II and although I knew the book was too long for Cecilia's visits to her guardians at this stage to resolve any of her problems I was quite taken aback at how awful her other two guardians were. I think I came to the same conclusion as Cecilia - better off continuing to put up with the Harrels!

I also liked this quote:

'Her next solicitude was to furnish herself with a well-chosen collection of books: and this employment, which to a lover of literature, young and ardent in its pursuit, is perhaps the mind's first luxury, proved a source of entertainment so fertile and delightful that it left her nothing to wish.'

Although I wasn't sure if I should be a bit concerned at the following sentence:

'She confined not her acquisitions to the limits of her present power, but, as she was laying in a stock for future as well as immediate advantage, she was restrained by no expence from gratifying her taste and her inclination. She had now entered the last year of her minority, and therefore had not any doubt that her guardians would permit her to take up whatever sum she should require for such a purpose.'

Am I right in thinking this means Cecilia has spent more money than she has immediate access to on books (I'm sure none of us have done that...)? Given the last few chapters have been focused on management of money and the mention of her guardians' approval this sounds ominous to me.

I came to the same conclusion as Cecilia - better off continuing to put up with the Harrels!

And how sad is THAT?

I meant to highlight that book quote too. Noting again Burney's influence on Austen, that line makes me think of Mansfield Park, when Fanny finds herself in the same situation:

By degrees the girls came to spend the chief of the morning upstairs, at first only in working and talking, but after a few days, the remembrance of the said books grew so potent and stimulative that Fanny found it impossible not to try for books again. There were none in her father's house; but wealth is luxurious and daring, and some of hers found its way to a circulating library. She became a subscriber; amazed at being anything in propria persona, amazed at her own doings in every way, to be a renter, a chuser of books!

Your second quote does indicate that Cecilia is overspending on books (though who are we to criticise??). BUT---we need to understand the finance system of the time, which well into the 19th century ran very much on a quarter-year basis; it was not a pay-as-you-go system, and it was rare that anyone paid immediate cash for anything. Permanent salaries, allowances and pensions were paid every three months; rents were collected every three months; bills were sent every three months. So tradespeople and shopkeepers did not expect to be paid immediately, and if you as an individual were asked to pay immediately it meant you had a bad reputation.

Of course this could be perilous for those supplying the goods, as there was no actual guarantee that they would get paid; however, refusing this sort of "accommodation" to your customers just meant they'd go somewhere else, so most businessmen took the risk.

So while technically Cecilia is "in debt", she's not IN DEBT, as her bookseller won't expect to receive payment until the next quarter-day.

I am catching up and have just finished Chapter 9 of Book One and enjoyed it particularly – it is very useful to have the footnotes. (the Virago edition).

Liz - I came across the word ‘macaronies’ – in relation to Albany’s rantings. I had an idea of what it meant but it doesn’t seem to fit? What does it mean in this context?

I immediately thought of Lady Catherine de Bourg from Pride and Prejudice when I read the description of Lady Monckton!

Poor Cecilia - how awful to be surrounded by those disagreeable suitors but thank goodness for her evident maturity in seeing through it.

Is 'macaronies' used in Chapter 9?

ETA: Gotcha:

Volume I / Book I / Chapter VIII

What Mr Monckton says is that "the macaronies call Albany 'the bore'". A macaroni was a man who followed the fashion to the extreme, with everything about his clothes and his wig and his jewellery very exaggerated. These fashion-obsessed individuals find Albany a bore.

Thanks Liz - similar to a dandy or a fop?

Yes, but even more so. A dandy was acceptable, a macaroni was usually ridiculed.

Thanks Liz - do you know the origin of the word? I'm curious.

The word itself was (as we might expect) brought back to England from Italy by young men who had made "the Grand Tour" and it started out as general slang for "fashionable". However, the young men also brought back a taste for European fashions which were much more colourful and extreme than the English ones of the time, and so the word became a way to describe the people who adopted that form of dress.

Macaronies were seen as effeminate for their fixation upon their appearance, and because of this the word gradually became a broader term of insult; the macaronies did not call themselves that. Ironically given their later reputation, the dandies were considered a more masculine alternative to the macaronies, although as fashions shifted again, they eventually also became viewed as unacceptably un-masculine.

Thanks Liz

Okay...we have reached the end of our first week of the group read, and according to our schedule people should have read to the end of:

Volume I / Book II / Chapter III

I would add that this last chapter, A Masquerade, is quite an important one and should be read carefully.

>75 lyzard: Phew, there was a lot going on in Volume I / Book II / Chapter III. I can't figure out who the white domino is - should I be able to?

>76 souloftherose: I wondered the same thing Heather. Never fear, his identity is revealed a few chapters later.

When I read A Masquerade I got impatient because I was trying to finish it during a window of free time. I've decided to re-read it today, and this time more carefully.

I will catch up tomorrow or Tuesday. Career of Evil popped up for me at the library. I am zooming through it, so it won't be long before I'm caught up. I've read the first two chapters in Book II.

I've gotten to Volume II, Book III, Chapter III. Gripping!

>79 Smiler69: great progress!

I re-read Volume I / Book II / Chapter III A Masquerade, and am glad I did.
I've now read through Volume I / Book II / Chapter VII -- in other words, one chapter to go until Book III.

I also just noticed my Kindle edition shows the Books, numbered I through X, but not the 5 volumes. Is each volume made up of 2 books?

>73 lyzard: Re: macaroni...so that's what it means in "Yankee Doodle":

Yankee Doodle went to town
A-riding on a pony,
Stuck a feather in his cap
And called it macaroni'.

Chorus:
Yankee Doodle keep it up,
Yankee Doodle dandy,
Mind the music and the step,
And with the girls be handy.

Plus, here in Chicago, back some years ago, I recall that it was a slang term among African-American males for a "lady's man." Not sure if it's still used today.

...the point there being that Yankee Doodle was only a pale, provincial copy of the real thing. It was meant to highlight the crudity and lack of culture of the Americans. :)

'Yankee Doodle' is one of those songs that evolved to have lots of different choruses and versions so it's hard to know what it was actually saying.

>80 lauralkeet:

Is each volume made up of 2 books?

Yes, that's right.

>77 lauralkeet: You're right and now I know!

I've just finished Volume II / Book III / Chapter V An Adventure ... and oh what an adventure indeed! I was thankful for the character description upthread: Mr Albany - a strange man who works for the benefit of the poor. I thought "who is this man?" and that perhaps I had missed something since he keeps popping up, like the Ghost of Christmas Present. And then he introduced Cecilia to Mr Belfield's sister, and we learn that Belfield is still ill at home after the duel! Mon dieu! Whatever will happen next?

At the end of this chapter, Cecilia looks forward "to the conclusion of her minority with increasing eagerness." At this point, several matters are dependent on this milestone. What is the age of majority and how close is she to reaching it?

Cecilia will come into her inheritance and be free of the control of her guardians when she is twenty-one.

Burney worked off a calendar - something Austen also did - in this novel: the events take place during 1779-1780. Cecilia leaves home for London early in 1779, and has her birthday on 23rd September, 1779.

>85 lauralkeet: I reached the same point as Laura last night. Now I'm thinking there is probably a love match in the air!

>86 lyzard: Thanks for clarifying the timeline. So really, she doesn't have very long to wait, though the Harrels are probably making time go by all too slowly with their constant and sickening overindulgence and not exactly 'masked' demands for money 'loans'!

>86 lyzard: ooh, now I'm counting the days!! :)

I'm a bit behind and have a question about Volume I / Book II / Chapter VIII and the conversation between Mr Delville and Cecilia about Mr Belfield:

"I purpose calling upon him to-morrow morning; will Miss Beverley permit me afterwards the honour of communicating to her what may pass?"

"I thank you, sir," said she, colouring very high; "but my impatience is by no means so great as to occasion my giving you that trouble."

I wasn't really sure why Cecilia was so embarrassed/upset by this. Was it because this shows Mr Delville believes she is engaged to Mr Belfield? I was surprised she hadn't alreayd figured that out from the earlier comments he made.

And going back to Volume I / Book II / Chapter IV I was very impressed that there was no fainting!

Now must go and catch up to >85 lauralkeet: & >87 Smiler69: to find out what's going on!

Heads up, all!

I know realise that later editions of Cecilia had an altered arrangement of Volumes / Books / Chapters. I am working off the first edition---can I ask if we have anyone here whose copy uses the later arrangement?

It occurs to me that we might be better off using the chapter titles than the chapter numbers, as those did not change.

My (kindle) copy starts from chapter 1 at the beginning of each 'book'. There are ten 'books' with from eight to thirteen chapters each. The Chapters are all named. No 'volume' divisions.

I think that's also common in the later editions.

So, yes---chapter titles from hereon, please!

Gotcha!

So, to go back to Laura's question about Chapter V An Adventure, in the previous chapter, Chapter IV An Evasion, the Harrels are planning to spend Easter at Violet Bank, which places us in March or April of 1779, about six months before Cecilia's birthday.

>89 souloftherose:

In Chapter VIII A Tête-à-Tête, the tone of Delvile's questions suggest at least that he suspects Cecilia to be in love with Mr Belfield; but note that in Chapter VI A Family Party, he seems to be equally suspicious about Sir Robert Floyer.

This is something, I think, that Burney captures very well: the exasperating tendency by society at large to think that everything a woman does must be motivated by her feeling for a man. So Cecilia can't just be horrified at the thought of two men trying to kill each other over nothing, she has to be in love with one of them. She can't be worried about Belfield as a friend, or on humanitarian grounds, she must be in love with him. And so on, and so on...

(Though of course as far as Sir Robert goes, Mr Harrel is also doing his best to propagate that idea...)

the exasperating tendency by society at large to think that everything a woman does must be motivated by her feeling for a man

Yes, poor Cecilia!

...and if she denies it, she's just being coy.

Grr!

>95 lyzard: You're right, Burney is brilliant at conveying that exasperation, and inducing it in the reader. Cecilia must want to give Mr Harrel a good shaking - I know I do!

>87 Smiler69: Yes, I think Cecilia's Intended has turned up!

I'm so glad she has finally found a few sympathetic folk to turn to. I like that despite Cecilia's beauty, wealth, generosity and high moral values she doesn't seem too good to be true. She clearly feels anger and frustration; she's blunt to the point of rudeness when pressed too hard; and she's not immune from making mistakes. While she's obviously used as a foil to the rest of society in general, she succeeds as a three-dimensional, sympathetic character with whom even a 21st century reader can identify.

>98 Sakerfalcon: Well said, Claire!

>98 Sakerfalcon: Hear, hear!

>98 Sakerfalcon: Yes indeed!

I've reached Book IV, Chapter IV, An Expectation and just wish to make a general comment to say I hate Mr Monckton most of all the characters in this novel so far. The Hills may be maddening and selfish, and the baronet might be annoying, but Mr Monckton seems to me truly evil for how manipulative he is, making poor Cecilia think he's all the time looking out for her best interests while all the while thinking only of his own... and a man who has already and is STILL married only for money already! Truly despicable. I can't believe no one seems to be able to see right through him; after all, they can't imagine he married his current detestable wife for love, can they?

>102 Smiler69: I'm not as far along as you are. He got on my bad side in A Masquerade and hasn't redeemed himself yet -- sounds like he doesn't improve either!

>103 lauralkeet: sounds like he doesn't improve either!

Indeed... he hardly improves on closer inspection!

>102 Smiler69:

We need to keep in mind, though, that we are inside Mr Monckton's head; no-one else is. The narrative emphasises how very careful he is not to hang around Cecilia too much, or to approach her without being invited. In this way he maintains his pose as "Cecilia's old friend from the country" and keeps her trust.

But note that no-one (not even Cecilia, really) has ever condemned his marriage. We see the deceit and the hypocrisy and we hurt for Cecilia, but no-one on the outside looking in would criticise Mr Monckton's attempt to secure a second fortune, any more than they criticise how he went about securing his first.

This subplot emphasises the brutal contradiction of this society, in that men can openly prey upon women and be as false and manipulative as they like in those dealings, but one word out of line between two men means they have to go out and shoot at each other in the name of "honour".

I'm also interested in the light that this subplot throws upon Mr Delvile and his birth-is-everything fixation. You could put a positive spin on that, in that at least he stands apart from all the dirty financial manoeuvring, but when you look squarely at the reality of this society it actually makes Mr Delvile seem ridiculous almost to the point of being delusional.

I'm just starting Book IV and I must say I don't like or trust any of the people that Cecilia is surrounded by. I wish the Dean had done a little more research in to the people who he appointed Cecilia's guardians!

I also am not excited about any of her potential suitors. Some are worse than others, but none seem good.

I'm also worried about Cecilia's use of her money. She doesn't seem to understand very well how much she has and how much is disposable. She can't go around giving money to everyone who needs it!

Even with all of these worries, I'm very much enjoying the book and wondering where things are headed. I am rooting for things to turn out well for Cecilia!

>102 Smiler69:, >105 lyzard: I completely agree about Monckton. He's potentially the most dangerous of those around Cecilia because of his skill at hiding his motives and the influence he holds over her. At least she seems to trust her own opinions where Mrs and Devile jr are concerned, despite Monckton's attempt to scare her away from them. I'm hoping she continues to stand firm.

Just finished Book IV, Chapter IV, An Agitation and all I will say for now is oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...

>108 souloftherose: Yes, I was going to comment on that chapter today, having read it last night and been besides myself and shouting at Cecilia in my mind the whole time DON'T LET YOURSELF BE TAKEN IN!!! She is too good at this point. Much too good. But I trust she won't suffer from the consequences too too much, mind you, we're barely one third of the way through the novel...

There is something that needs to be said about that chapter but now is not yet the time. :)

(I'm trying to keep a mental list of "Things to be discussed at a later time"; it's getting loooong...)

Okay, it's a little bit early (only Sunday morning here) but anyway I will note our progress goal:

We are now two weeks into our group read so by our schedule we should be up to:

Volume II / Book III / Chapter IX A Victory

How are we doing? I can tell by the comments that a number of you are past this point; is anyone struggling?

Because of the comments in >108 souloftherose: I have now read through Book IV, Chapter V, An Agitation

And I can I only echo Heather's "oh dear ..."

As for the pace I've been finding it fairly easy to read 2 chapters per day. I actually read 4 chapters today although a few of them were quite short.

I'm a bit behind, but will catch up. I've been visiting my daughter and working on a birthday project for my grandson who will be seven in two weeks. I'm not far behind, so should be caught up by mid week.

>113 NanaCC: Likewise - I have been in the country visiting family and should be caught up by the end of the week.

I've got ahead of schedule because I just want to know what happens next!

>115 Sakerfalcon: me too! I also finished the other book I was reading alongside this one, and am waiting for a library book which I expect today, so my weekend reading time was devoted to Cecilia. I'm in Book V now.

>113 NanaCC:, >114 mrspenny:

That's fine, ladies!

>115 Sakerfalcon:, >116 lauralkeet:

It's good to hear that everyone's enjoying it. :)

I've reached the end of Volume II in my edition, which is Volume II, Book IV, Chapter X: A Murmering and I'm as confused as Cecilia is about what's going on with the younger Mr Delville.

It is perplexing isn't it Heather?

Volume II / Book IV / Chapter IX An Explanation

Yet still young Delvile came not, and still, as her surprise encreased, her tranquillity was diminished. She could form no excuse for his delay, nor conjecture any reason for his absence. Every motive seemed to favour his seeking, and not one his shunning her: the explanation which had so lately passed had informed him he had no rival to fear, and the manner in which he had heard it assured her the information was not indifferent to him; why, then, so assiduous in his visits when he thought her engaged, and so slack in all attendance when he knew she was at liberty?

I have quite a lot to say on this subject but I need to be careful not to get spoilery. However, speaking broadly one of the things I find most interesting about Burney is the way she treats her heroines' relationships.

Those of you who have read Evelina will know that there Burney gave us Lord Orville and a fairy-tale romance (at least in 18th century terms). This is not the case in her other three novels, in which she has some unexpected and rather worrying things to say about the nature of the relations between the sexes.

This has always struck me as another, less overt connection between Burney and Austen. When we did the tutored reads of both Sense And Sensibility and Mansfield Park we discussed the lack of a conventional romance in these novels and how they tend to make people uncomfortable because of their "failure" (or rather, refusal) to deliver what readers expect in this respect. We see the same sort of thing in Cecilia, and increasingly with Camilla and The Wanderer (which I hope we will all have a chance to discuss at a later date!).

Thanks for weighing in Liz! You are always there with context which is so helpful. I still don't knew what Delvile is up to. I'm well into Book V now and my attention has been more on those awful Harrels of late.

Volume II / Book IV / Chapter IX An Explanation

I've just finished this chapter. I'm going to admit that I am very frustrated with Cecilia over her money decisions. I cannot understand what compelled her to give so much money to Mr. Harrel and don't understand how she could have been taken in by his threats of suicide. I guess I didn't see her as quite that naive, especially after all she has already witnessed in his behavior. I can't remember how much money she started with, but 7000 pounds must be a significant chunk of her fortune. Does she, at this point, understand that this will radically change her lifestyle and marriage options? I liked that she had more options than the average woman because of her financial situation and now I am really upset with her for ruining that!

Someone talk me down! ;-)

I keep hoping that as a minor her signature isn't binding.

>122 japaul22: I wanted to reach into the book and restrain her!!
>123 NanaCC: good point. I live in hope!

I just finished Book V, Chapter X, A Gamester's Conscience

All I can say is - Oh dear....

>123 NanaCC: Same here, especially as she just keeps getting deeper and deeper into debt!

>124 lauralkeet: Me too! I keep screaming at her in my mind to get a hold of herself and blind herself to the manoeuvres of the manipulative Harrel devils!

I've completed Book V, Chapter XII, A Man of Business, and have to say all the chapters in this fifth part of the book have driven me absolutely bonkers! Most of all, I want to throttle Cecilia for wanting to be so perfectly good all the time and letting herself be so shamelessly manipulated, and this, even when she's fully cognisant of that manipulation! I'm not excessively worried that her fortune has been unretrievably diminished, since it is stated at some point that she is to receive 3000 pounds per anum, but how she can separate herself from such vast sums for these completely undeserving wretches just drives me up the wall! Especially since she knows they'll never be satisfied with anything she gives them! And then all this while, interest is being accrued on the ever-growing debt! (This is in great part my personal pain at my own debt being expressed here, no doubt!) As Colleen says, I've been hoping since that first loan that her signature with the usurer isn't actually binding since she's still a minor... but of course we'll only find out as we continue reading along.

Volume III / Book V / Chapter XI A Persecution

"I know no longer what is kind or what is cruel, nor have I known for some time past right from wrong, or good from evil!"

...which is the last thing you would expect the heroine of an 18th century novel to say; good girls were always supposed to know right from wrong and good from evil, and have no difficulty "doing the right thing".

This speaks to the point I was making at the outset about the moral greyness of this novel and how uncomfortable it made people.

While judging Cecilia's behaviour here, we need also to keep in mind the view of the time that "a woman with money" was an oxymoron: the only real use a woman could have for money was to give it to a man. (I forget who said it, but someone was once quoted as saying something like, "A woman is merely a conduit by which money is transmitted from man to man."). We see how furious Mr Monckton gets with Cecilia, not for spending / giving away her money, but for spending / giving away his money.

So in thinking she even might use her own money for her own purposes, like helping the poor, Cecilia is pretty radical.

But this also explains the incredible pressure that the Harrels feel free to put upon her, and in part too her repeated giving in.

There is something else I want to say about this section, but I will wait until a few more people indicate that they are past Volume III / Book V / Chapter XII A Man Of Business.

As far as Cecilia's fortune goes, she has 10,000 pounds outright, which she inherited from her mother, and which is at her disposal*; when she turns twenty-one, she will inherit her father's property, a country estate which will bring her 3000 pounds a year.

(*And I think "disposal" is the right word!)

And as a couple of you have suggested, it was indeed illegal to lend money to a minor.

I just finished Volume III/Book V/Chapter XII A Man of Business

Oh my.

I have finished Book VI, Chapter II, A Railing

>129 lauralkeet:

Well, yes. :)

>130 NanaCC:

Noted, Colleen, thanks!

Book V, Chapter XIII A Solution

In which Mr Harrel throws his wife under the bus:

A good wife perhaps might have saved me,--mine, I thank her! tried not. Disengaged from me and my affairs, her own pleasures and amusements have occupied her solely. Dreadful will be the catastrophe she will see tonight; let her bring it home, and live better!

And Mr Monckton confirms he is a scheming b*****d.

I finished Book VI last night and am about to start Book VII Chapter 1: A renovation. Even with the Harels out of the way and having reached the sanctuary of the Devile household, things are still not running smoothly for Cecilia.

I thought that Burney had enormous fun with the character of Mr Meadows, and it felt to me as though she had someone specific in mind upon who she based him.

Vol. 3, Book V, Chapter XII, A Man of Business

I've just finished this chapter. I'm looking forward to your comments, Liz, since I've been getting tired of the repetition of misunderstandings and Cecilia getting taken advantage of. I'm hoping that this significant chapter will prove to be a bit of a turning point.

I did want to add that though I'm frustrated with the plot, I love how Burney has used different dialogue and speech patterns for her different characters. I think it's neat that you can tell who is speaking without knowing the context of the words just by observing the consistent dialect that the different characters use. I'm finding that impressive and that it adds a lot to the novel.

Trust me, the plot has not even begun to be frustrating! :)

Good call on Burney's dialogue, Jennifer; it's something that doesn't attract a lot of attention but I think you're right.

>133 Sakerfalcon:

I don't know if Burney had a particular person in mind with Mr Meadows but as with Miss Larolles and Miss Leeson, she certainly captured a particular form of behaviour that occurred in her society and recognised by her readers.

What I wanted to say about:

Volume III / Book V / Chapter XII A Man Of Business

...was with respect to Cecilia's manipulation by Mr Harrel: I think, given the outcome of the situation, that the original encounter between Cecilia and Mr Harrel in Volume II / Book IV / Chapter V An Agitation was more than just bluff. I think this end point was always a part of Mr Harrel's plans, and that Cecilia sensed he wasn't just making empty threats.

We as readers might be tempted to sit back and say, "Go ahead!", but we can hardly wish for him to cut his throat in front of Cecilia, much as we deplore what it costs her to save his life at that moment. We also have to place these events in the context of Burney's own religious faith, and likewise Cecilia's, wherein suicide means immediate and eternal damnation.

>132 lauralkeet:

Volume III / Book V / Chapter XIII A Solution

Isn't he a sweetie? He marries an ignorant girl from the country, teaches her to be as wasteful and dissipated and thoughtless as himself, and then blames all his problems on her, for not being a better influence on him!

Ah, and Mr Monckton, another sweetie!

I just finished Book VIII, Chapter II, An Event - an event indeed! Oh, my. I am so curious.

Oops, sorry! - I forgot to post our reading goal for this week.

By our two-chapters-a-day schedule, readers should be in the vicinity of:

Volume III / Book V / Chapter IV A Sarcasm

Our posts suggest that most of you are past this point - is anyone behind?

I am up to Book IV/ Chapter VIII/ A Broad Hint. (Virago Edition) I am a bit behind as I find the print in this edition is so small it is difficult to read it in long sessions. However, I am enjoying it very much.

There are so many of the characters who are thoroughly dislikeable (male and female) It seems Mr Briggs is one of the few with Cecilia's best interests in mind.

Thanks again Liz for doing the group reads.

Thank you for joining us! :)

(Understand completely about the print size!)

>141 mrspenny: Yes, I feel the same about Mr Briggs. He is awful in his extreme miserliness but I do think he wants the best for Cecilia. I love the way that he's not just reluctant to waste money, but words too, as he frequently drops pronouns and clips his sentences.

>140 lyzard: I'm a little bit ahead of our pace as I am up to Book VI / Chapter IX / An Attack

I'm glad we are using chapter names to report progress. The book/chapter numbering in my edition differ from those in >140 lyzard: and >141 mrspenny:

>143 Sakerfalcon:

At least, he wants the best for Cecilia's money! :)

>144 lauralkeet:

Thanks for raising that, Laura - I may just list the chapter titles from here.

I've just finished Book 6, Chapter 5, A Storm

I have a question from Book 5, Chapter 13, A Solution, though.

So when Mr. Monkton appropriates her bills does that change anything about how she is responsible for them? What I'm thinking is that when she owed them to the money lender she might have been able to get out of it at some point because she was a minor, but now that Mr. Monckton has taken them on there is no longer a way out of it. Plus now she is beholden to him. I'm sure he's happy about that, but it's obvious she doesn't realize where he's going with this. And shouldn't Mr. Monckton have known that Cecilia shouldn't have even been given the power legally to sign away her money?

I suppose all will be revealed eventually, but I'm thinking about that a lot! Also wondering when it will come out to her other suitors that she's signed away a large chunk of her fortune. It seems that money is such a big part of marriages that I'm surprised that everyone didn't find out immediately.

I also really enjoyed the conversation between Lady Honoria and Cecilia in Chapter IV, A Rattle (I think Book 6). Honoria has some interesting things to say about what is desirable in a marriage.

Book V / Chapter XII A Solution

While it was illegal to lend money to a minor, this was not much observed by law in the 18th century; in the 19th there was a crackdown and it became more trouble than it was worth for the lenders to take the risk.

At this point, Cecilia could legally default on her loan, but of course she's too honest and honourable to do that. And that it was illegal was why she deliberately didn't consult Mr Monckton.

Then as now, money-lending was all about the interest. Mr Monckton's proposal closes the debt with the money-lender and avoids the payment of the exorbitant interest he was relying on receiving (...the disappointed Jew, who most unwillingly was paid off, and relinquished his bonds...).

But of course this rearrangement leaves Cecilia deeply in Mr Monckton's debt, financially and emotionally beholden to him, which is exactly what he wants. He's still seeing Cecilia's fortune as "theirs", of course, not "hers".

Also wondering when it will come out to her other suitors that she's signed away a large chunk of her fortune...

Well, yes. :)

Book VI / Chapter IV A Rattle

It was not uncommon for novels with a "perfect" (or at least, rarely wrong / bad) heroine to also feature a second female character whose job is to do and say all the things the heroine won't. Such a character might also air unexpected or radical opinions, which even if they are not accepted by the other characters (and may be criticised in context), indicate to the reader what kinds of ideas were prevalent in society at the time.

Lady Honoria certainly fulfils this function, being as indiscreet as she is talkative.

However, she also gives the reader a guilty thrill by being so disrespectful to Mr Delvile and, in effect, showing how "normal" people feel about the Delvile pretensions. (Previously we have only had Mr Monckton's negativity, and we can't take that at face value.)

But of course, Lady Honoria herself, being the daughter of a Duke, illustrates the fact that there is as much foolishness amongst the aristocracy as anywhere, and acts as a foil for the steady and clever (and merely middle-class) Cecilia.

And to this, I can only say, "Hear, hear!"

    "...he is utterly insufferable; so solemn, and so dull! so stately and so tiresome! Mortimer, too, gets worse and worse; O ’tis a sad tribe! I dare say he will soon grow quite as horrible as his father. Don’t you think so?”
    “Why indeed — no — I don’t think there’s much resemblance,” said Cecilia, with some hesitation.
    “He is the most altered creature,” continued her ladyship, “I ever saw in my life. Once I thought him the most agreeable young man in the world: but if you observe, that’s all over now, and he is getting just as stupid and dismal as the rest of them..."

I've been behind, but am catching up--just finished Volume III / Book V / Chapter IV A Sarcasm.

I'm pretty frustrated with just about everybody in this book. I do like Mr. Briggs. And Mr. Meadows--now there's a piece of work! He is just such a typical bored-with-everything a-s; over-hearing his conversations is like being at a large party or gallery-opening or some such event. Burney can do these characters so well. I also like the "conversations" between Cecilia & Delvile, where they mumble a sentence and then SILENCE. Reminds me of oh-so-painful adolescent experiences. So true to life.

>148 lyzard: Thanks for the insight on the "second female character" in these novels. I find Lady Honoria alternately amusing and frustrating. She's such a meddler, constantly stirring the pot by spreading false information. Your explanation helps me tolerate her a bit more.

I'm a bit behind most other people having just finished Book V, Ch XII A Man of Business and Ch XIII A Solution so I'm skipping comments about later chapters for now.

>137 lyzard: Good point, Liz. I'd assumed Mr Harrel was just bluffing before but clearly this was always at the back of his mind. And Sir Robert's persistence makes so much more sense now.

Out of interest, what would have happened to Mr Harrel if he had been caught by his debtors? Would it have been prison (something like the Marshalsea)?

>146 japaul22:, >147 lyzard: I hadn't realised Cecilia's debts had added up to so much by this point. £9,050 is a large debt nowadays and that's nearly 1/3 of her fortune.

I still can't work out why the younger Mr Delville keeps blowing hot and cold. I assume all will be revealed at some point but someone shout if I've missed something.

>151 souloftherose:

Yes, he would have ended up in a debtor's prison and, because there was no possible way for him even to begin to pay his debts, he would probably have spent the rest of his life there. That he owed debts to gentlemen (not very honourable debts, admittedly) would have added to the opprobrium on his character.

Cecilia has given away almost the entirety of the fortune inherited from her mother, but her estate through her father is so far untouched.

You haven't missed anything. There will eventually be an explanation allow whether you find it a satisfactory one is another matter. :)

Oh my! Last night I read the chapter "A Torment", and never was a chapter better named! Events are hugely frustrating both for Cecilia and the reader, and I was mentally urging her to shout inappropriate and anachronistic things at the infuriating characters around her. I will say no more until others have reached this point, except that I think Burney must have enjoyed creating this set piece.

I think Burney has a remarkable ability to write scenes that just make you squirm.

And yes, you just want Cecilia to lose it and shout, "OH @#$% OFF!!!!", don't you? :D

Weekly check-in time:

By our schedule readers should be up to Volume III / Book VI / Chapter VI A Mystery

...I hope this quietude is just reading, reading, reading... :)

I'm really enjoying it a whole lot. I've now reached Volume V / Book IX / Chapter I, A Cogitation

Thanks for the check-in, Liz. I've been merrily reading along, and am a few chapters behind Ilana. I just reached Book VIII / Chapter VIII / A Parting and am disgusted with Mrs Delvile and not especially sympathetic to her current plight.

I am going to try to read Book VIII, Chapter X, A Shock tonight, but it has been a busy weekend and I am so ready for bed.

I will have a hard time putting the book down though once I start. I am quite invested in Cecilia's happiness. :)

I'm plugging along fairly happily. I'm about to start Book VII, Chapter III, An Incident. I can't say I'm enjoying this as much as Evelina, though, which I found much more charming.

I'm still also a little confused about what happened in Book VI, Chapter IX An Attack between Cecilia and young Delvile. I guess I'm surprised that Cecilia finds it so offensive that Delvile wouldn't want to take her family name. That seems like a big deal to me. Was it more standard than I'm imagining for a woman's family to insist on this?

>157 Smiler69:, >158 lauralkeet:, >159 NanaCC:, >160 japaul22:

Thanks for checking in; I'm glad (on the whole!) you're enjoying it. :)

Jennifer, to be fair Cecilia is not meant to be "charming". Evelina had an obvious, fairy-tale, happy-ever-after quality to it, wherein we never really doubted that things would work out for her whatever the apparent obstacles. But Burney's other three novels are not like that: they are fairly serious indictments of her society and there are many very uncomfortable scenes to get through without an overt promise of a happy ending.

I've just finished Book VII, Chapter V, A Letter, which, according to my kindle, is 60%. It feels as though it's approaching the finale - what else can happen?

>160 japaul22:

Name-changing to inherit was actually a pretty common phenomenon in the 18th century, and into the 19th---sometimes purely as an inheritance thing, more often because their was no male heir to a fortune / property. However, it was more common as a male-to-male thing: for instance, a man without an heir of his own name (i.e. a son or a brother's son) would adopt his sister's son, but insist he change his name.

The other common situation was if a young woman became heir to a large property: it would often be made a marriage condition that her husband change his name; alternatively, there might be hyphenation of their surnames.

Most commonly (and Mr Delvile actually makes this point), these things happened amongst the aristocracy, where there would be a title to obscure the change of name. But sometimes it did happen amongst the middle-classes. Those of you who have read Austen's Emma will be familiar with Frank Churchill's situation: when his mother died he was taken in and raised by her relatives and became the heir to his grandmother's property on condition he changed his name; so he began calling himself "Frank Weston Churchill", with Mr Weston being his father and Mrs Churchill his grandmother.

BUT---all these examples involve people of the same social class. One of the sticking points in Cecilia is that she is of a lower social status than the Delviles. In fact she's only three generations away from farmers (farmer / gentleman farmer / gentleman / Cecilia), while they are on the fringe of the aristocracy.

This is a family on the move up the social ladder and it is almost certain that the Dean intended through Cecilia's marriage to lift the Beverleys up into the aristocracy in one leap. Probably he imagined her marrying the impecunious younger son of a lord; because of primogeniture younger sons were viewed as having an obligation to marry money and thus support themselves.

So Cecilia might marry Lord John So-and-So, younger son of the Earl of Such-and-Such: he would become Lord John Beverley, and she would be Lady John Beverley. Their children, surnamed Beverley, would be the grandchildren of an Earl, which is all that would matter socially.

And we see how this may have played out in reality by Cecilia being courted by Lord Derford, the son of Lord Ernolf.

But in the case of Cecilia and Mortimer Delvile, part of the problem is their different social standing, the other is that there is no way of hiding his becoming "Mr Beverley".

BUT (again)---we need to be clear that the Delviles' horror at the very thought of this is not something that society at large would have felt, but instead an instance of their absurdly inflated family pride. Cecilia is rightly insulted by their reaction to the suggestion, and that her intrinsic merit is considered so much less important than her name.

And I may say that Cecilia's "Keep your stupid surname!" reaction is one of the things I most enjoy about this novel. :)

>162 CDVicarage:

Oh, Kerry, Kerry, Kerry... SO much more! :D

>158 lauralkeet:

I would like to have a discussion about the character of Mrs Delvile, but with people being all over the place I'm afraid it might be too spoileriffic---but perhaps we can do that when we're done? So don't run away!

Volume IV / Book VIII / Chapter VIII A Parting

Mrs Delvile is an interesting case. We can appreciate that, as an intelligent, passionate young woman, she suffered absolute misery in being forced to marry Mr Delvile; the irony is that the thing she grabbed onto, in order to give her life some meaning, is now the very thing that is wrecking her happiness and that of the two people in the world she loves best.

That said, she is certainly most at fault here, because at some level she knows better.

In all this, we probably need to be clear about Mortimer's culpability. It is important to realise that at this time, obedience to parents was taken very seriously, and that Mortimer is genuinely, deeply torn between his love for Cecilia and his duty to his parents. He has also spent his whole life to this point steeped in his parents' views on family, and has been brought up to share their pride. It probably never occurred to him that he would be called upon to make a choice between pride and duty on one hand, and love on the other.

Cecilia's reaction is again the interesting one, since Mr and Mrs Delvile are essentially in loco parentis and she therefore owes them the same duty that Mortimer does; in fact more so, since this was an even bigger deal for girls. I find it fascinating that she dissects the situation and concludes that she owes no duty to Mr Delvile; though unfortunately, she believes that she does to Mrs Delvile, and this feeling has serious consequences.

>163 lyzard: This is an excellent and very useful explanation of the "name" issue. Thank you for putting it in context.

>166 Sakerfalcon: I agree!

>165 lyzard: So don't run away!
Heavens no. I'm in this for the duration and would love to dissect Mrs Delvile in due course.
Meanwhile, last night I read through Volume IV / Book VIII / Chapter X A Shock, which completed Book VIII in my edition. I found the re-appearance of Mr Albany and his back story as related in Chapter IX A Tale rather interesting. He continues to remind me of one of the Ghosts of Christmas in A Christmas Carol. He seems to be a character infused with meaning / significance.

>167 lauralkeet: Glad to know that Mr. Albany comes back. I was wondering what happened to him and if we'd get an explanation about him.

>167 lauralkeet: I was thinking the same thing about the Ghosts of Christmas in relation to Mr. Albany, Laura. I wondered if the fact that my hubby and I did our annual listen to the audio version of A Christmas Carol on our Thanksgiving travels put the thought into my head. Maybe not, as you had the same thought.

>163 lyzard: >165 lyzard: I thank you too Liz for your explanation of name changes. Poor Mrs Delville! But as I understand it, she is a relation of her husband (a cousin?) and therefore herself grew up with the idea that preserving the family name was essential, which might help explaining her position now; even though she probably has no great love for her husband, she carried the family name before being wedded to him. Somehow I wasn't so surprised that she felt obliged to create unhappiness because of what has become a fast principle, this carrying on of the family tradition and name. It seems in a time when appearances and high birth were so important, those who could claim to a long lineage would want to keep it going as much as possible... at any cost. And since she has lived in an unhappy marriage all these years, she must not see it as anything unusual, especially as it still produced a son she cherishes. This is not to say I agree or approve of her stance, but given the historical and social context, it doesn't seem very unusual.

I've now reached Volume V / Book IX / Chapter VI, A Disturbance. I've less than 200 pages to go, but still I can't seem to read this book in long enough sessions; definitely among my favourites this year. I agree Albany is a fascinating character, and found it very funny when both Mr Briggs and Hobson though he was a stage-actor because of his speeches. There was a comment earlier on this thread about how wonderfully Burney conveyed different speech patterns for her various characters, and I must say this seemed to be most wonderfully displayed in Chapter IV, A Wrangling, when Albany, Delvile, Briggs and Hobson are all at cross purposes when expressing their most deeply-held convictions.

But however misguided these men might seem, the true villain in this story is Mr Monckton. Too gifted at the art of manipulation by far. I was glad to finally get to A Suspicion. Of course he was a master of evasion, but at least Cecilia is finally on her guard, at least somewhat.

I'll be ordering Camilla soon enough, to be sure!

>166 Sakerfalcon:, >167 lauralkeet:

I'm glad you found that helpful.

>166 Sakerfalcon:, >167 lauralkeet:, >168 japaul22:, >169 NanaCC:

Volume IV / Book XIII / Chapter IX A Tale

I find it disturbing that Mr Albany's back-story continues the novel's theme of the exploitation of women, albeit that he is now repentant and trying to make amends.

>170 Smiler69:

I think you're on the mark with your comments about Mrs Delvile, Ilana. Her character was one of the things that contemporary readers found difficult about this novel, as they weren't used to dealing with good characters who were also so flawed. (Particularly not a woman; women were supposed to be "good" or "bad" without much shading.)

Or as Cecilia puts it:

Volume IV / Book XIII / Chapter IX A Tale

“Oh what,” cried she, “is human nature! in its best state how imperfect! that a woman such as this, so noble in character, so elevated in sentiment, with heroism to sacrifice to her sense of duty the happiness of a son, whom with joy she would die to serve, can herself be thus governed by prejudice, thus enslaved, thus subdued by opinion!”

Yet never, even when miserable, unjust or irrational; her grief was unmixed with anger, and her tears streamed not from resentment, but affliction. The situation of Mrs Delvile, however different, she considered to be as wretched as her own. She read, therefore, with sadness, but not bitterness, her farewell, and received not with disdain, but with gratitude, her sympathy. Yet though her indignation was not irritated, her sufferings were doubled, by a farewell so kind, yet so despotic, a sympathy so affectionate, yet so hopeless.

>172 lyzard: well yeah, there's that ...

I've just finished Book VII, Chapter IX, A Torment and agree with >153 Sakerfalcon: that that was an incredibly frustrating chapter to read!

>163 lyzard: 'And I may say that Cecilia's "Keep your stupid surname!" reaction is one of the things I most enjoy about this novel. :)'

I loved that bit too :-)

Going back to Book VI, Chapter IX, An Attack, this chapter strongly recalled a scene in Austen's Pride and Prejudice to me, the first time Mr Darcy proposes to Elizabeth although in Cecilia Mr Delville is explaining why he won't marry Cecilia because of his pride.

this chapter strongly recalled a scene in Austen's Pride and Prejudice to me

Hold that thought. :D

Volume V / Book IX / Chapter IV A Wrangling

    Cecilia, earnest to have the business concluded, turned to Mr Briggs, and said, “Sir, here is pen and ink: are you to write, or am I? or what is to be done?”
    “No, no,” said he, with a sneer, “give it t’other; all in our turn; don’t come before his Grace the Right Honourable Mr Vampus.”
    “Before whom, Sir?” said Mr Delvile, reddening.
    “Before my Lord Don Pedigree,” answered Briggs, with a spiteful grin, “know him? eh? ever hear of such a person?”
    Mr Delvile coloured still deeper, but turning contemptuously from him, disdained making any reply.
    Mr Briggs, who now regarded him as a defeated man, said exultingly to Mr Hobson, “what do stand here for?---hay?---fall o’ your marrowbones; don’t see Squire High and Mighty?”

Funny thing about Mr Briggs: of course, he's awful...but at the same time he's almost the only person in this book who does right by Cecilia, which is a pretty sad comment upon her society!

Scenes like this pair him with Lady Honoria, showing (from both ends of the social spectrum) what ordinary people think of the Delvile attitude.

Meanwhile---of course I meant to post this much earlier, sorry!

Volume II / Book IV / Chapter VI A Man Of The Ton

    “Do you know,” continued Miss Larolles, “Mr Meadows has not spoke one word to me all the evening! Though I am sure he saw me, for I sat at the outside on purpose to speak to a person or two, that I knew would be strolling about; for if one sits on the inside, there’s no speaking to a creature, you know, so I never do it at the Opera, nor in the boxes at Ranelagh, nor any where. It’s the shockingest thing you can conceive to be made sit in the middle of those forms; one might as well be at home, for nobody can speak to one.”
    “But you don’t seem to have had much better success,” said Cecilia, “in keeping at the outside.”
    “O yes I have, for I got a little chat with two or three people as they were passing, for, you know, when one sits there, they can’t help saying something..."

As mentioned earlier, Burney came from a highly musical family and she expresses through her heroines her own frustration and disgust with those who go to concerts and then talk all through them.

But she's after something else here: it was the practice at the time for men to prowl the aisles of concert halls in search of flirtation. Miss Larolles assists the process by sitting on the end of her bench---and is just as likely to pounce on a passing man as the other way around.

This is the passage that Jane Austen had in mind in Persuasion, when Anne Elliot is driven to desperate measures:

    In re-settling themselves there were now many changes, the result of which was favourable for her. Colonel Wallis declined sitting down again, and Mr Elliot was invited by Elizabeth and Miss Carteret, in a manner not to be refused, to sit between them; and by some other removals, and a little scheming of her own, Anne was enabled to place herself much nearer the end of the bench than she had been before, much more within reach of a passer-by. She could not do so, without comparing herself with Miss Larolles, the inimitable Miss Larolles; but still she did it, and not with much happier effect; though by what seemed prosperity in the shape of an early abdication in her next neighbours, she found herself at the very end of the bench before the concert closed.
    Such was her situation, with a vacant space at hand, when Captain Wentworth was again in sight...

>178 lyzard: Thanks for revisiting that point, Liz! I love connections like these, and of course when I first read Persuasion I would not have picked up on the reference and skipped right over it.

>178 lyzard: I agree with Laura. Your insights are so enlightening. Thank you.

>178 lyzard: So I'm actually rereading Persuasion with a group read for the Category Challenge and I just read that passage! How neat to see such a direct connection!

I'm plugging along in Cecilia. I'm in Volume 4, Book VIII, Chapter V. Liz, your insights are definitely helping me with this book. I think if I didn't have the group read, I'd be getting pretty frustrated with the over-dramatic nature of everything and the repetition. As it is, I'm noticing the ambiguities in the characters and the social commentary which is helping me to appreciate and enjoy the book.

>181 japaul22:: japaul22: 'Liz, your insights are definitely helping me with this book' - I agree completely. I find the comments and insights into the different characters and events is very helpful. I am at Book VI, Chapter II and am reading along very steadily and enjoying it immensely thanks to everybody's comments. I will finish reading within the allotted timetable.

I've reached Volume V, Book X, Chapter V, A Decision and must say I was immensely pleased when I read Book X, Chapter I, A Discovery. FINALLY!!! Of course, it's incredibly hard to put it down at any moment, because even though all is now made clear, the drama certainly does not subside! I agree with japaul22 that it's all quite over-dramatic, but then I guess having read Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister with you last year has made me tolerant for this over-the-top aspect of the thing, which I'm seeing more as farcical than anything else. It's certainly been a wonderful entertainment!

>179 lauralkeet:, >180 NanaCC:, >182 mrspenny:

All good to hear, ladies! :)

>181 japaul22:, >182 mrspenny:

While Cecilia is certainly melodramatic we need to keep in mind that the second half of the 18th century was the pinnacle of melodramatic fiction generally, a time when the popular novel went so far over the top it often didn't come back.

In the 1780s, the "novel of sensibility", which was basically about people indulging their emotions as much as humanly possible (and which was eventually killed off by Austen's Sense And Sensibility) was about to give way to the Gothic novel---and anyone who has read Matthew Lewis's The Monk knows how far those could go in terms of melodrama!

So while it all seems very exaggerated to us, in terms of the literature of the day Cecilia would be considered a realistic novel. Burney means us to feel every bit of Cecilia's frustration and uncertainty, which makes it a gruelling ride.

>184 lyzard: Ah, I had that backward in my mind! I was thinking of Burney as a bridge from gothic to Austen, but now I see that gothic came in between. I tried reading Mysteries of Udolpho years ago and just could not handle all the melodrama. I only got about a quarter through it. Nice to finally understand the progression!

>183 Smiler69: oh the suspense is killing me!!

>185 japaul22:

In the first half of the 18th century, the "Augustan" period, logic, reasoning and detached analysis were prized, and emotions severely devalued. In the second half of the century, however, there was a huge backlash against that stance, which was condemned for its absence of sympathy and compassion. Human institutions of all kinds were viewed as inherently corrupt. There was a religious shift towards Deism, which left the church (one of the corrupt human institutions) out of the process and found God directly and via Nature; this gave rise to a lot of poetry.

The Deist novel was also popular: these were largely plot-less (and often epistolary), and often consisted basically of lengthy conversations about the meaning of life and the correct way to live.

Then the novel of sensibility took over---these became often ludicrous celebrations of emotion for its own sake: the more you felt, the more sensibility you had, the better the human being you were; although often you were too good for this world, and would die---the final chapters would be all the other characters analysing their feelings about your death. (This is where the idea that the correct response to any shock was to faint came from.)

The Gothic novel was the dark cousin of the novel of sensibility: it was also all about the emotions, but showed them to be terrifying, irrational things; most Gothic novels retreat at the end into safe and passionless domesticity.

The Deist and sentimental novels arose during the mid-18th century, and the Gothic novel around 1790 (although there were earlier novels that used the same themes); they persisted into the 19th century but died off in the 1820s. Jane Austen's novels offer strong evidence of the prevailing shift towards a more rational view of life: Austen never undervalued imagination or passion, but felt that people should not allow themselves to be controlled by their feelings; that to do so was selfish, and could be dangerous (as we see with Marianne's behaviour in Sense And Sensibility).

Weekly check-in time: by our schedule we should be up to:

Volume IV / Book VII / Chapter IX A Torment

...though I know a number of you are past that, and a few have nearly finished---anyone actually done?

>188 lyzard: I am past this but not finished, I'm at Book VIII / Chapter V A Cottage .

I have just two or three chapters left, which I am settling down to finish right now actually.

I've just started Book X and read one chapter. Cecilia has just realized something we've known for some time: Mr Monckton is a jerk.

I'm just starting Book IX.

Book X, Chapter VII, A Pursuit

Oh my goodness. I want to strangle everyone.

Finished!

>193 NanaCC:

A very sane and sensible reaction, Colleen! :D

>194 Smiler69:

WHOO!!!!

Well done!

I have fewer than 100 pages to go, so hope to finish this evening. Some very satisfying plot developments have occurred, and a few new frustrations arisen. I think Henrietta's comments echo mine when she laments that even Cecilia with all her wealth, beauty and other advantages can't find happiness; what hope for the rest of us? But of course, it is Cecilia's wealth, and the strings attached to it, that have caused most of her problems.

>183 Smiler69: My reaction exactly! I wanted a showdown between them, so the start of the next chapter rather took me aback and I felt a bit cheated for a while, until we found out the whole story. I truly appreciated the irony of Lady Margaret dying too late for her death to benefit him.

Lady Margaret is an interesting character, and she certainly had my sympathy. Although she only appeared in a few scenes Burney managed to make her more than just a device to show Monckton's true nature and one can certainly sympathise with her even though she behaves so unpleasantly on the page.

I finished last night, as I had hoped. Now I will go back and read the introduction and all the appendices.

I did feel that Cecilia's descent into madness was a bit much, but it did serve a purpose as it was that which finally got Delvile senior to show some mercy (grudgingly, and for the wrong reasons, but it got the result in the end).

I have just a few chapters left ...

Just thought you might like to know that I've purchased the OWC Camilla. :-)

Just checking in to say I finished Book IX today.

>198 Sakerfalcon:

Congratulations, Claire!

I'll address your other point when a few more people have finished.

>199 lauralkeet:, >201 souloftherose:

Nearly there! :)

>200 Smiler69:

Good grief!

Uh, April / May?? (After The Prime Minister in February, and Emma in March?? Which leaves June for Marriage...)

I'm dragging the chain a little:-) - I'm up to Book VIII and really enjoying the read.

That's more important than finishing quickly, Trish! :)

Finished!!! And I agree with >198 Sakerfalcon:'s spoiler. I'm looking forward to discussing it here as others finish the book.

Well done, Laura!

I have finished, and can say I really enjoyed it. I also agree with the spoiler in >198 Sakerfalcon:.

Good work, Colleen!

Perhaps we can talk about these things over the weekend, when hopefully we'll get a few more people over the finish-line? :)

I suspect I'll be done by Sunday or Monday.

After saying I would join in with you all reading, I'm going to have to catch up at a later date in the end. I was hit by a car while cycling in mind November and while I got off very lightly (just a sprained ankle and a persistent infection of the foot) I've had no brain space for reading anything terribly thinky since. Hopefully once I've finished the latest run of antibiotics I'll be able to concentrate a bit more. I'll definitely be referencing this thread though.

>210 Ygraine: Very thankful that your injuries were not more serious. Get well soon.

I've finished! I got sort of bogged down about 3/4 of the way through, but I thoroughly enjoyed Book X. Looking forward to discussing a few things once more people finish! I'm very glad I read this.

Also finished and agree with >198 Sakerfalcon:'s spoiler. It was suddenly very reminiscent of Samuel Richardson's Clarissa.

>210 Ygraine: Yikes, sorry to hear that Katie. Hope you feel better soon.

I'm pretty far behind everyone, so I think I can ask this question without spoiling anything.

I just finished Book VIII, Chapter V: A Cottage. This is the chapter where Cecilia discovers Belfield working as a day laborer. How unusual is this "back to the simple life" for the time? Perhaps limited by my American education, I have always associated this concept with Thoreau and Walden, and the 19th century.

Was Burney unusual in her time for presenting these ideas? What or who would be her influences?

>210 Ygraine:

So sorry to hear about your troubles, Katie, and very glad you're all right!

>212 japaul22:, >213 souloftherose:

Well done, Jennifer and Heather!

>214 kac522:

Take your own time with it, Kathy.

Volume IV / Book XIII / Chapter V A Cottage

If Belfield were simply living in the country and communing with Nature it would fit with the tenets of "sensibility" but to be working as a day labourer would more likely be perceived as silly and undignified at best; certainly ungentlemanly. To the English of this time there was no such thing as "the dignity of labour" and a man who worked with his hands in any way was beyond the social pale.

It was the second half of the 19th century before social attitudes to work changed in any significant way. (We have been discussing this in the context of Trollope's novels.)

>214 kac522:; >216 lyzard:; Belfield seems to me to be a solitary figure notwithstanding his earlier prominent position within the younger society set. Could he have imposed self-exile in order to punish himself for trying to be something he is not within the society? Alternatively, could it have been partly for peace of mind and escape from his "fawning" mother? I’m not sure ‘fawning’ is the right description for his mother (perhaps controlling may have been a better description) I thought she was absolutely dreadful and her treatment of Henrietta was atrocious and infuriating.

Suffocating? Embarrassing? :)

In the context of the 18th century novel Belfield's fits and starts illustrate the (perceived) dangers of trying to break out of your class: he has been educated above his station in life, but cannot find a place in the stratum above. He therefore ends up on the loose between the two and without a place where he really fits in.

(Of course, we might be inclined to feel that this applies only to Belfield as an individual: the thin skin that causes him to take offence too easily when he is employed as a tutor, for example, is a personal stumbling-block, not a general one.)

Apologies, people! - this week went rather horribly pear-shaped, and I didn't get the chance to come back for some general chat about Cecilia. Hopefully everyone is still in a mood for some discussion?? :)

We should probably preface this with a warning:

Spoilers from here onwards

Okay---several of you raised Cecilia's collapse as an issue for you. To me this just one of those things you have to roll with in fiction of this period---similar to the way you find "brain fever" all through novels of the 19th century, and even into the 20th.

The question is whether these phenomena, these "brain fevers" and "descents into madness", are simply a novelistic convention, or whether they represent an attempt to describe something for which there was no terminology at the time?

It can be hard to grasp now how very little was known about the aetiology of illness and disease---at this time the "humours" theory, wherein health was the result of the balance of internal forces, was still very prevalent. Simultaneously the complete lack of any preventatives meant that illness and death, often from what we would now consider trivial causes, was a commonplace.

I guess what I'm asking is, is it the collapse itself or the way it is described that bothers you? - if Burney had called Cecilia's collapse "a complete nervous breakdown" instead of "a descent into madness", would people feel more comfortable?

>219 lyzard:; Liz -
I am into the last 200 pages and should finish it tomorrow - throughout the book i have been hoping Cecilia will finally realise the deviousness and ulterior motives of Mr Monckton and send him packing!.

No doubt, this will be revealed soon:-)

Many thanks Liz for managing the this group read and I look forward to the next read.

>219 lyzard: Cecilia's mental collapse didn't bother me as I felt it did fit the other events. And I agree that something I've been noticing a lot lately is the way that other eras describe what we would today call "depression" or "general anxiety" or "hypochondria" or just plain grief, especially when they write about women. I don't find it surprising that Cecilia would have a breakdown after all she had been through.

>220 mrspenny:

Please don't feel rushed, Trish. Do check in when you finish. :)

>221 japaul22:

No, I don't find Cecilia's collapse unbelievable at all, but the language in which it is described is problematic for some, I think.

Finished. Whew. Cecilia's madness at the end was a bit over the top for me, but certainly a nervous breakdown was not unbelievable. I was surprised how the final resolutions were not all happy and perfect--Burney was ahead of her time in many ways.

One minor detail--I couldn't tell--were Mr. & Mrs. Delville (Mortimer's parents) reconciled at the end?

>223 kac522:

Well done!

I agree with you about the lack of neat resolutions, which made readers at the time very uncomfortable. It's a touch of realism that they weren't prepared for and that helped to pave the way for more realistic writing generally.

One minor detail--I couldn't tell--were Mr. & Mrs. Delville (Mortimer's parents) reconciled at the end?

Ah, bingo! :D

Well spotted---no, they were not, or at least their situation is left ambiguous, which is remarkable. We're given no reason not to conclude that Mrs Delvile simply stays in Italy---"for her health". Yeah, her mental and emotional health.

Mrs Delvile is seriously at fault in many ways, but surely life with Mr Delvile is more punishment than any woman deserves? Note that it after they separate that she throws her support behind Cecilia. It's like she can breathe again for the first time in years.

Again, it's not that these sorts of separations didn't happen in real life, but rather this is another bit of uncomfortable realism that novel-readers would not have expected.

OK, thanks--not at all what I would have expected in a novel of the time. Burney does take one off-guard, doesn't she?

She does. :)

Mrs Delvile was one of the things that caught the first readers of Cecilia off-guard---they didn't know how to react to her, either as a "good" character who was responsible for much of the heroine's suffering, or conversely as a "bad" character who was misguided rather than wrong. Novels were supposed to be more black-and-white than that!

For me, Cecilia's collapse wasn't unbelievable in and of itself - as others have said, after all the emotional stress she had been through it would be no wonder if the poor girl couldn't stand the strain. My problem was that coming after so many trials and traumas it felt as though Burney was heaping yet more torment onto her heroine and further delaying the resolution in order to spin out the narrative and keep the reader in suspense - like our soap operas do! However, it didn't spoil the book for me and I know that such an event was a common plot device in novels at that time.

>227 Sakerfalcon: I felt the same way about it. The collapse was entirely believable given the circumstances, but yes, I too had the impression Burney was dragging out the final resolution. Probably nowadays we'd call it a complete nervous breakdown. Or then again, maybe it's the first signs of schizophrenia and more of this sort of thing is in store for them in future? I certainly don't wish that upon them! I really loved this book for the marvellous entertainment it was and certainly many things about it felt very fresh, although the novel is very much of its time.

>228 Smiler69: That reminds me, regarding the future marriage of Cecilia and young Delvile, I'm not sure I see them as a very successful couple considering how poor their communication skills were with each other! They never seemed able to decipher each other's words or figure out what the other was thinking or intending.

Thank you for raising that point, Jennifer, because that is always what strikes me too: Delvile never listens to her! Right from the start of their acquaintance he is continually refusing to hear her out or putting the worst construction on her words and actions. It doesn't bode very well for their future!

And it's interesting that we see the same sort of thing in Evelina---even though Lord Orville knows how ignorant and naïve Evelina is, there are moments when he interprets her actions as her knowingly doing wrong.

I wonder if Burney felt this sort of miscommunication or misinterpretation was a recurrent and serious issue with male-female relationships?

Does anyone know if there is a film or TV version of Cecilia? Or any of Burney's works, for that matter?

I finished the book yesterday evening.

>230 lyzard: I would like to think that after all pressures are off both Cecilia and Delvile and with Delvile Snr and Mr Monckton off the scene that that they may settle into a stressfree calm lifestyle. It seems that a great deal of Delvile's behaviour and attitude stemmed from the stress he suffered in his realisation of his feelings for Cecilia and his conflict with his father as well as trying to be a 'good son' to his mother.

Thanks Liz for running the group read. I have really enjoyed your guidance and comments.

>231 kac522:

No, as far as I know none of Burney's works have ever been adapted. I guess the length of Burney's novels might be an issue (although, if we're remaking War And Peace...), but I am a bit surprised that no-one has tackled Evelina. I suppose Burney falls into that "important but not sufficiently famous" black hole. Instead we'll just re-make Jane Austen again and again and again...

>232 mrspenny:

Whoo!! Well done!

I'm very glad you've enjoyed it, Trish. :)

Yes, I guess we can hope for the best! As I mentioned earlier, post-Lord Orville Burney's leading men are a very flawed and unheroic bunch, each in a different way. It's actually quite fascinating to have a story about a young man caught between love and duty---that was an extremely common plot throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, but almost invariably from a female perspective.

The things I find interesting are, firstly, Delvile's lack of thought - he's never stopped to consider the possible implications of going along with his parents' edict, even though we know he has put his foot down about who he won't marry - and secondly his manoeuvring attempts to avoid confronting his father: "He'd just say 'no' so we won't ask. Then we won't be disobeying." That's realistic rather than heroic, and again not what you would expect to find in this sort of novel.