Group read: Deerbrook by Harriet Martineau
ForumVirago Modern Classics
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2lyzard
Introduction:
Hello, all!
As with so many things, our Virago Chronological Read Project fell off the table last year, but we're hoping for better in 2017.
For anyone new (or who may have forgotten in the interregnum!), this project is a way for Heather and myself to plug some gaps in our Virago reading; while my own obsession with doing things "in order" dictated the format. Briefly, we are working through our unread (or little read) Viragos in order of original publication date. Within the framework of this project, we are not compelling ourselves to re-read the more famous and familiar works (unless there is a specific request for a group read), but seeking out those works which are less well known.
To date we have completed:
Love Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister by Aphra Behn (1684 - 1687) (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3)
A Description Of Millenium Hall by Sarah Scott (1762) (Thread)
**Evelina; or, The History Of A Young Lady's Entrance Into The World by Frances Burney (1778) (Thread)
Cecilia; or, Memoirs Of An Heiress by Frances Burney (1782) (Thread)
Marriage by Susan Ferrier (1818) (Thread)
...which is where things sadly fell apart; but we will hope for better on this attempt!
(**Not a Virago, but important in its own right and as preparation for the massive Cecilia.)
Hello, all!
As with so many things, our Virago Chronological Read Project fell off the table last year, but we're hoping for better in 2017.
For anyone new (or who may have forgotten in the interregnum!), this project is a way for Heather and myself to plug some gaps in our Virago reading; while my own obsession with doing things "in order" dictated the format. Briefly, we are working through our unread (or little read) Viragos in order of original publication date. Within the framework of this project, we are not compelling ourselves to re-read the more famous and familiar works (unless there is a specific request for a group read), but seeking out those works which are less well known.
To date we have completed:
Love Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister by Aphra Behn (1684 - 1687) (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3)
A Description Of Millenium Hall by Sarah Scott (1762) (Thread)
**Evelina; or, The History Of A Young Lady's Entrance Into The World by Frances Burney (1778) (Thread)
Cecilia; or, Memoirs Of An Heiress by Frances Burney (1782) (Thread)
Marriage by Susan Ferrier (1818) (Thread)
...which is where things sadly fell apart; but we will hope for better on this attempt!
(**Not a Virago, but important in its own right and as preparation for the massive Cecilia.)
3lyzard
Background:
Harriet Martineau (1802 - 1876) was a strikingly unusual woman, whose life was marked by personal tragedy, yet who became one of the most respected writers and social commentators of her time. She was born into a dissenting, trade-based family and, like so many prominent female authors of the 19th century, turned to writing when her family suffered financial hardship, in this case when her father's business failed and the eight children forced to support themselves.
Martineau suffered ill-health all of her life, and despite living into her seventies lived and wrote in expectation of an early death. During her childhood she lost her senses of taste and smell, and in her early teens began to lose her hearing; she never became profoundly deaf, but was forced throughout the rest of her life to use an ear trumpet. As a young woman, she was engaged to a man who died suddenly shortly before their wedding. She subsequently remained unmarried, and both her fiction and non-fiction writings express her ambivalence about marriage, in particular the prevailing social insistence upon marriage as the only proper destiny of woman.
Martineau got her start writing anonymous magazine articles, and by concealing her sex she established herself as a respected sociologist and political economists. Her breakthrough work, much to the astonishment of everyone including her publisher, was Illustrations Of Political Economy, in which she wrote a series of short stories offering practical examples of the social and economic theories of Adam Smith, whose An Inquiry Into The Nature And Causes Of The Wealth Of Nations is the basis of modern free market economics.
Martineau's other non-fiction writings frequently addressed the position of women in society, in terms of their education (intellectual and moral) and financial dependence. Her travels in America produced Society In America, in which she berated the state of female education in that country. She also became a committed abolitionist, and wrote extensively on the subject, causing a storm of controversy.
Deerbrook was published in three volumes in 1839, and was enormously popular and influential; today, it tends to be viewed as a "bridge" between the works of Jane Austen and those of George Eliot, both in its acute examination of the state of women's lives (using, as was so often done, contrasting sisters as her nucleus), and its dissection of village life and the interactions of families held in close proximity by circumstance.
Despite the novel's success, Martineau afterwards attempted nothing more of the kind, and in fact shied away from writing fiction, producing only two works of historical fiction and some stories from children. It is speculated that the physical and emotional strain of writing Deerbrook made Martineau wary of any more such ventures.
Harriet Martineau (1802 - 1876) was a strikingly unusual woman, whose life was marked by personal tragedy, yet who became one of the most respected writers and social commentators of her time. She was born into a dissenting, trade-based family and, like so many prominent female authors of the 19th century, turned to writing when her family suffered financial hardship, in this case when her father's business failed and the eight children forced to support themselves.
Martineau suffered ill-health all of her life, and despite living into her seventies lived and wrote in expectation of an early death. During her childhood she lost her senses of taste and smell, and in her early teens began to lose her hearing; she never became profoundly deaf, but was forced throughout the rest of her life to use an ear trumpet. As a young woman, she was engaged to a man who died suddenly shortly before their wedding. She subsequently remained unmarried, and both her fiction and non-fiction writings express her ambivalence about marriage, in particular the prevailing social insistence upon marriage as the only proper destiny of woman.
Martineau got her start writing anonymous magazine articles, and by concealing her sex she established herself as a respected sociologist and political economists. Her breakthrough work, much to the astonishment of everyone including her publisher, was Illustrations Of Political Economy, in which she wrote a series of short stories offering practical examples of the social and economic theories of Adam Smith, whose An Inquiry Into The Nature And Causes Of The Wealth Of Nations is the basis of modern free market economics.
Martineau's other non-fiction writings frequently addressed the position of women in society, in terms of their education (intellectual and moral) and financial dependence. Her travels in America produced Society In America, in which she berated the state of female education in that country. She also became a committed abolitionist, and wrote extensively on the subject, causing a storm of controversy.
Deerbrook was published in three volumes in 1839, and was enormously popular and influential; today, it tends to be viewed as a "bridge" between the works of Jane Austen and those of George Eliot, both in its acute examination of the state of women's lives (using, as was so often done, contrasting sisters as her nucleus), and its dissection of village life and the interactions of families held in close proximity by circumstance.
Despite the novel's success, Martineau afterwards attempted nothing more of the kind, and in fact shied away from writing fiction, producing only two works of historical fiction and some stories from children. It is speculated that the physical and emotional strain of writing Deerbrook made Martineau wary of any more such ventures.
4lyzard
Reading plan:
I don't like to dictate a reading pace in these group reads - too much like homework! - but Deerbrook is a lengthy work, and I think we will proceed better with a target of minimum reading per day / week.
The novel has 46 chapters; on this basis, I would suggest a target of 2 chapters per day / 14 chapters per week. (This seems to work out at about 20 pages per day.)
Deerbrook is available both as a green Virago Modern Classic, and as a black Dial Press / Virago Modern Classic. It has also been reissued by Penguin Classics, and there is a Penguin Kindle edition.
The novel is also available free through Project Gutenberg and ManyBooks. We should note, however, that neither of these editions gives a source for the text or, more importantly, indicates whether they are unabridged. (Those who were with us for Marriage will recall that the edition available online had been edited.) I have found no information that Deerbrook was ever published abridged, so the online copies are probably fine to use; but if any question about this arises during the read, please speak up.
Please feel free to post comments and questions about anything in this novel; experience shows, the more comments, the better! When posting, please note the chapter to which you are referring in bold, and be mindful of spoilers for your fellow readers: use spoiler tags if appropriate.
Otherwise, I will only say what I always say at this stage of a group read: do not read the introduction (if any) before reading the novel!
I don't like to dictate a reading pace in these group reads - too much like homework! - but Deerbrook is a lengthy work, and I think we will proceed better with a target of minimum reading per day / week.
The novel has 46 chapters; on this basis, I would suggest a target of 2 chapters per day / 14 chapters per week. (This seems to work out at about 20 pages per day.)
Deerbrook is available both as a green Virago Modern Classic, and as a black Dial Press / Virago Modern Classic. It has also been reissued by Penguin Classics, and there is a Penguin Kindle edition.
The novel is also available free through Project Gutenberg and ManyBooks. We should note, however, that neither of these editions gives a source for the text or, more importantly, indicates whether they are unabridged. (Those who were with us for Marriage will recall that the edition available online had been edited.) I have found no information that Deerbrook was ever published abridged, so the online copies are probably fine to use; but if any question about this arises during the read, please speak up.
Please feel free to post comments and questions about anything in this novel; experience shows, the more comments, the better! When posting, please note the chapter to which you are referring in bold, and be mindful of spoilers for your fellow readers: use spoiler tags if appropriate.
Otherwise, I will only say what I always say at this stage of a group read: do not read the introduction (if any) before reading the novel!
6cbl_tn
Although I already have a full plate for January, I can't resist a group read. Not one of my New Year's resolutions!
7japaul22
I am definitely in. I saw a LT review of this in the past year and thought, "why have I never heard of this woman author from an era I love??". I'm completely intrigued.
8lyzard
Great to have you both here!
>6 cbl_tn:
Everything except temptation, hey, Carrie?? :)
>7 japaul22:
Well, that's pretty much the point of this project!
>6 cbl_tn:
Everything except temptation, hey, Carrie?? :)
>7 japaul22:
Well, that's pretty much the point of this project!
9CDVicarage
I have a Virago copy but will probably read it on my kindle unless the Gutenberg versions proves to be too different.
10lyzard
Welcome, Kerry!
As I say, there's no overt evidence that PG doesn't have the complete version, I'm just a little gun-shy after over previous experience.
As I say, there's no overt evidence that PG doesn't have the complete version, I'm just a little gun-shy after over previous experience.
11CurrerBell
I've already read Deerbrook (and quite a bit else by Miss Martineau, who was probably targeted by Dickens for satire in the Bleak House character of Mrs Jellyby). I don't plan on rereading Deerbrook, but I'll be watching this thread to see what others think.
Incidentally, Currer Bell will eventually feel compelled to comment on that infamously unfavorable review that Miss Martineau wrote of Villette.
Incidentally, Currer Bell will eventually feel compelled to comment on that infamously unfavorable review that Miss Martineau wrote of Villette.
13lauralkeet
I'm in! I have the VMC edition, but won't be able to start reading for a few days. Carry on and I will catch up!
14Sakerfalcon
I'm looking forward to reading and discussing this. A black Dial edition has been sitting unread on the shelf for far too long.
15lyzard
Welcome, Mike, Kathy, Laura and Claire!
>11 CurrerBell:
Please feel free to comment, Mike!
>12 kac522:
Well done!
>13 lauralkeet:
No hurry, Laura.
>14 Sakerfalcon:
A black Dial edition has been sitting unread on the shelf for far too long.
Heh! Same here! :D
>11 CurrerBell:
Please feel free to comment, Mike!
>12 kac522:
Well done!
>13 lauralkeet:
No hurry, Laura.
>14 Sakerfalcon:
A black Dial edition has been sitting unread on the shelf for far too long.
Heh! Same here! :D
16Oregonreader
Count me in. I have never heard of Martineau but the introduction above convinced me this is exactly my cup of tea!
18lyzard
Chapter 1
Like so many novels of this era, Deerbrook builds itself around a pair of physically and temperamentally contrasted sisters, in this case Hester and Margaret Ibbotson.
However, the opening chapter is less concerned with the sisters themselves than in the new environs in which they find themselves: Martineau stresses the physical beauty surrounding the village of Deerbrook, so different from the sisters' surroundings in Birmingham, but also offers clear intimations that things are not so lovely on the human level, with various hints at a promising family feud between the Greys and the Rowlands, despite the business partnership that exists between Mr Grey and Mr Rowland.
It is also evident that, to go along with the sisters, to an extent at least this will be another of the 19th century's innumerable ruminations of love and marriage as women's destiny; but immediately there is the suggestion of the way that outside forces may act to shape this destiny, particularly in a restricted community like Deerbrook, where other people's business is everyone's main hobby (in some cases, occupation):
When the children were gone, and Sophia was attending the sisters to their apartment, Mrs Grey looked at her husband over her spectacles. “Well, my dear!” said she.
“Well, my dear!” responded Mr Grey.
“Do not you think Hester very handsome?”
“There is no doubt of it, my dear. She is very handsome.”
“Do not you think Mr Hope thinks so too?”
It is a fact which few but the despisers of their race like to acknowledge, and which those despisers of their race are therefore apt to interpret wrongly, and are enabled to make too much of---that it is perfectly natural,---so natural as to appear necessary,---that when young people first meet, the possibility of their falling in love should occur to all the minds present. We have no doubt that it always is so; though we are perfectly aware that the idea speedily goes out again, as naturally as it came in: and in no case so speedily and naturally as in the minds of the parties most nearly concerned, from the moment that the concern becomes very near indeed. We have no doubt that the minds in Mr Grey’s drawing-room underwent the common succession of ideas,---slight and transient imaginations, which pass into nothingness when unexpressed. Probably the sisters wondered whether Mr Hope was married, whether he was engaged, whether he was meant for Sophia, in the prospect of her growing old enough. Probably each speculated for half a moment, unconsciously, for her sister, and Sophia for both. Probably Mr Grey might reflect that when young people are in the way of meeting frequently in country excursions, a love affair is no very unnatural result. But Mrs Grey was the only one who fixed the idea in her own mind and another’s by speaking of it.
Like so many novels of this era, Deerbrook builds itself around a pair of physically and temperamentally contrasted sisters, in this case Hester and Margaret Ibbotson.
However, the opening chapter is less concerned with the sisters themselves than in the new environs in which they find themselves: Martineau stresses the physical beauty surrounding the village of Deerbrook, so different from the sisters' surroundings in Birmingham, but also offers clear intimations that things are not so lovely on the human level, with various hints at a promising family feud between the Greys and the Rowlands, despite the business partnership that exists between Mr Grey and Mr Rowland.
It is also evident that, to go along with the sisters, to an extent at least this will be another of the 19th century's innumerable ruminations of love and marriage as women's destiny; but immediately there is the suggestion of the way that outside forces may act to shape this destiny, particularly in a restricted community like Deerbrook, where other people's business is everyone's main hobby (in some cases, occupation):
When the children were gone, and Sophia was attending the sisters to their apartment, Mrs Grey looked at her husband over her spectacles. “Well, my dear!” said she.
“Well, my dear!” responded Mr Grey.
“Do not you think Hester very handsome?”
“There is no doubt of it, my dear. She is very handsome.”
“Do not you think Mr Hope thinks so too?”
It is a fact which few but the despisers of their race like to acknowledge, and which those despisers of their race are therefore apt to interpret wrongly, and are enabled to make too much of---that it is perfectly natural,---so natural as to appear necessary,---that when young people first meet, the possibility of their falling in love should occur to all the minds present. We have no doubt that it always is so; though we are perfectly aware that the idea speedily goes out again, as naturally as it came in: and in no case so speedily and naturally as in the minds of the parties most nearly concerned, from the moment that the concern becomes very near indeed. We have no doubt that the minds in Mr Grey’s drawing-room underwent the common succession of ideas,---slight and transient imaginations, which pass into nothingness when unexpressed. Probably the sisters wondered whether Mr Hope was married, whether he was engaged, whether he was meant for Sophia, in the prospect of her growing old enough. Probably each speculated for half a moment, unconsciously, for her sister, and Sophia for both. Probably Mr Grey might reflect that when young people are in the way of meeting frequently in country excursions, a love affair is no very unnatural result. But Mrs Grey was the only one who fixed the idea in her own mind and another’s by speaking of it.
19kac522
>18 lyzard: All I could think when I read this was Mr & Mrs Bennet all over again.
20lyzard
Well, there's certainly plenty of husband-and-wife jostling in this book, although none of the participants have Mr Bennet's sense of humour. :)
21kac522
>20 lyzard: I was just reading Chapter XII (I'll try not to give too much away), where Mrs Grey has just stepped on daughter Sophia's foot under the table during dinner conversation, accompanied by a huge wink (a la Mrs Bennet). After the children have left the room, she turns to her husband Mr Grey and says:
'My dear,' said she, 'what makes you think that Mr Hope is gaining ground every day?'
'My dear,' {he answered}, 'what made you tread on all our toes when I said so?'
I rather liked that retort.
'My dear,' said she, 'what makes you think that Mr Hope is gaining ground every day?'
'My dear,' {he answered}, 'what made you tread on all our toes when I said so?'
I rather liked that retort.
22lyzard
:)
It is certainly true that gossip, and the effects of gossip, becomes an increasingly important component of the story.
It is certainly true that gossip, and the effects of gossip, becomes an increasingly important component of the story.
23souloftherose
I'm going to start reading the Project Gutenberg ebook whilst I wait for my Penguin Classics edition to arrive (really should have ordered it before Christmas). Will hopefully start reading today.
24rainpebble
Hurrah!~! I find that I have it on my Kindle & so will be able to join in after all. Yea!~! **happy dance** I am in the process of clearing a couple of commitments but think I can pull in an additional 20 pages per day as well.
Thank you so much ladies.
Thank you so much ladies.
25kaggsy
Although I'm not taking part in this one, I shall look forward to following the discussion with great interest! :)
26souloftherose
>18 lyzard: & >19 kac522: Yes, the Bennets came to mind for me too - I also thought of Mrs Bennet when the Grey's were trying to persuade the Ibbotsons that they wouldn't find the local society very restricted. Reminded me of Mrs Bennet to Mr Darcy ("I know we dine with four-and-twenty families.")
27souloftherose
Chapter 1
“And really there is no occasion for that with us,” resumed Mrs Grey. “We should never think of mixing him up with his sister’s proceedings, if he did not do it himself. No one would suppose him answerable for her rudeness; at least, I am sure such a thing would never enter my head. But he forces it upon one’s mind by carrying himself so high.”
“I don’t think he can help being so tall,” observed Sydney.
“But he buttons up, and makes the most of it,” replied Sophia. “He stalks in like a Polish count.”
The sisters could not help smiling at this proof that the incursions of the Poles into this place were confined to the book club. They happened to be well acquainted with a Polish count, who was short of stature and did not stalk. They were spared all necessity of exerting themselves in conversation, for it went on very well without the aid of more than a word or two from them.
Is there anything behind the reference to a Polish count?
“And really there is no occasion for that with us,” resumed Mrs Grey. “We should never think of mixing him up with his sister’s proceedings, if he did not do it himself. No one would suppose him answerable for her rudeness; at least, I am sure such a thing would never enter my head. But he forces it upon one’s mind by carrying himself so high.”
“I don’t think he can help being so tall,” observed Sydney.
“But he buttons up, and makes the most of it,” replied Sophia. “He stalks in like a Polish count.”
The sisters could not help smiling at this proof that the incursions of the Poles into this place were confined to the book club. They happened to be well acquainted with a Polish count, who was short of stature and did not stalk. They were spared all necessity of exerting themselves in conversation, for it went on very well without the aid of more than a word or two from them.
Is there anything behind the reference to a Polish count?
28japaul22
>27 souloftherose: I didn't understand this reference either. Seems that there's confusion between a fictional version and real version of some Polish count?
And also in Chapter 1
Can you remind me what a dissenter is and the significance in their community?
Another observation - I'm enjoying all the gossiping happening through observation and that already in the first chapter there is a mistake made when Mrs. Rowland sees the sisters' 50 year old maid and mistakes her for one of the sisters!
And also in Chapter 1
Can you remind me what a dissenter is and the significance in their community?
Another observation - I'm enjoying all the gossiping happening through observation and that already in the first chapter there is a mistake made when Mrs. Rowland sees the sisters' 50 year old maid and mistakes her for one of the sisters!
29lyzard
>24 rainpebble:, >25 kaggsy:
Welcome, Belva and Karen!
>26 souloftherose:
Ha! yes, that's true.
>27 souloftherose:, >28 japaul22:
Yes, the younger Greys have revealed that their knowledge of the world, such as it is, is drawn from novels; this coming in conjunction with (as Heather points out) Mrs Grey talking up Deerbrook society: the Ibbotsons have experienced a genuinely broad and numerous society in Birmingham (including an actual Polish count).
If a reference to a real novel was intended, it was probably Jane Porter's Thaddeus Of Warsaw, from 1803, which was extremely popular, as was its idealised hero.
Welcome, Belva and Karen!
>26 souloftherose:
Ha! yes, that's true.
>27 souloftherose:, >28 japaul22:
Yes, the younger Greys have revealed that their knowledge of the world, such as it is, is drawn from novels; this coming in conjunction with (as Heather points out) Mrs Grey talking up Deerbrook society: the Ibbotsons have experienced a genuinely broad and numerous society in Birmingham (including an actual Polish count).
If a reference to a real novel was intended, it was probably Jane Porter's Thaddeus Of Warsaw, from 1803, which was extremely popular, as was its idealised hero.
30lyzard
>28 japaul22:
The Dissenters split from mainstream Christianity in the 16th century and onwards in a protest against state interference in church matters. They established their own churches and schools, and appointed their own ministers without requiring their ordination from the universities. Dissenters were subject to persecution by the church and the crown and were outlawed at various points in history.
Numerous dissenting factions developed over these centuries, each with a greater or lesser point of difference from the established church. The Puritans, who left England over religious differences, were considered a fairly extreme version of dissent, devoted to "purifying" the church; whereas other factions differed merely on points of practice, such as the wearing of vestments.
The main dissenting religions today are the Baptists, the Congregationalists, the Presbyterians, the Quakers and the Unitarians.
It isn't specified which faction the Greys belong to, but it is most likely that they are Unitarian. The Unitarians reject the Trinity and believe that Jesus was mortal, among other important doctrinal differences. Harriet Martineau came from a Unitarian family.
The Dissenters split from mainstream Christianity in the 16th century and onwards in a protest against state interference in church matters. They established their own churches and schools, and appointed their own ministers without requiring their ordination from the universities. Dissenters were subject to persecution by the church and the crown and were outlawed at various points in history.
Numerous dissenting factions developed over these centuries, each with a greater or lesser point of difference from the established church. The Puritans, who left England over religious differences, were considered a fairly extreme version of dissent, devoted to "purifying" the church; whereas other factions differed merely on points of practice, such as the wearing of vestments.
The main dissenting religions today are the Baptists, the Congregationalists, the Presbyterians, the Quakers and the Unitarians.
It isn't specified which faction the Greys belong to, but it is most likely that they are Unitarian. The Unitarians reject the Trinity and believe that Jesus was mortal, among other important doctrinal differences. Harriet Martineau came from a Unitarian family.
31lyzard
There's another, less obscure literary reference in Chapter IV:
“Oh, pray, do not trouble Mr Grey! He has too much business on his hands already; and he is so kind, he will be putting himself out of his way for us; and all we want is to be in the open air in the fields.”
“‘All you want!’ very like starlings in a cage;” and he looked as if he was smiling at the well-known speech of the starling; but he did not quote it.
This original source of this is Laurence Sterne's A Sentimental Journey Through France And Italy - "I can't get out---I can't get out," said the starling - but it was famously used by Jane Austen in Mansfield Park, quoted by Maria Bertram during the visit to Mr Rushworth's estate.
“Oh, pray, do not trouble Mr Grey! He has too much business on his hands already; and he is so kind, he will be putting himself out of his way for us; and all we want is to be in the open air in the fields.”
“‘All you want!’ very like starlings in a cage;” and he looked as if he was smiling at the well-known speech of the starling; but he did not quote it.
This original source of this is Laurence Sterne's A Sentimental Journey Through France And Italy - "I can't get out---I can't get out," said the starling - but it was famously used by Jane Austen in Mansfield Park, quoted by Maria Bertram during the visit to Mr Rushworth's estate.
32BeyondEdenRock
>31 lyzard: I don't have the book to hand, but I recall that the opening of Red Pottage by Mary Cholmondeley is strikingly similar too.
I'm not sure I have time for Deerbrook at the moment, but I don't doubt that I'll look back to this thread when I do.
I'm not sure I have time for Deerbrook at the moment, but I don't doubt that I'll look back to this thread when I do.
33Sakerfalcon
I'm up to Chapter Four and very much enjoying the mix of gossip and observation so far. Miss Young is an interesting character; I wonder if she represents the voice and opinions of the author in her meditations?
34CDVicarage
I notice that the Miss Ibbotsons call their maid by her surname, Morris, but Mrs Enderby refers to hers by her christian name, Phoebe. Is there a reason for this difference?
35kac522
Sort of off-topic, but this week's Jane Austen Quiz features "technology" of the early 19th century:
https://www.janeausten.co.uk/jane-austen-quiz/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_med...
https://www.janeausten.co.uk/jane-austen-quiz/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_med...
36lyzard
>32 BeyondEdenRock:
Hi, Jane! Please feel free to join in if you do find the time. I haven't read Red Pottage yet but hopefully we'll be getting to it in due course. :)
>33 Sakerfalcon:
Having finished the book it is interesting to note, which perhaps you don't at the time, how early the thread concerning village gossip is introduced and woven through the text.
We have discussed elsewhere how novels of this time, most frequently novels by women, tend to include a character who may be regarded as the "moral touchstone", and Maria Young seems to fulfil this role in Deerbrook.
>34 CDVicarage:
It probably reflects what they were hired for in the first place: upper servants tended to get the dignity of a surname (sometimes with "Mr" or "Mrs" attached, the latter whether they were married or not), whereas "low" servants like housemaids were called by their first names. Morris (we gather) always occupied an important post in the Ibbotson household, whereas Phoebe has become increasingly important to Mrs Enderby.
>35 kac522:
Thanks for that, Kathy!
Hi, Jane! Please feel free to join in if you do find the time. I haven't read Red Pottage yet but hopefully we'll be getting to it in due course. :)
>33 Sakerfalcon:
Having finished the book it is interesting to note, which perhaps you don't at the time, how early the thread concerning village gossip is introduced and woven through the text.
We have discussed elsewhere how novels of this time, most frequently novels by women, tend to include a character who may be regarded as the "moral touchstone", and Maria Young seems to fulfil this role in Deerbrook.
>34 CDVicarage:
It probably reflects what they were hired for in the first place: upper servants tended to get the dignity of a surname (sometimes with "Mr" or "Mrs" attached, the latter whether they were married or not), whereas "low" servants like housemaids were called by their first names. Morris (we gather) always occupied an important post in the Ibbotson household, whereas Phoebe has become increasingly important to Mrs Enderby.
>35 kac522:
Thanks for that, Kathy!
37lyzard
We might want to keep this passage in mind, going forward:
Chapter IV
"But Hope is, though a very happy man, not this sort of privileged person. His friends are so attached to him that they confide to him all their own affairs; but they respect him too much to gossip at large to him of other people’s. I see you do not know how to credit this; but I assure you, though the inhabitants of Deerbrook are as accomplished in the arts of gossip as any villagers in England, Hope knows little more than you do at this moment about who are upon terms and who are not.”
“My sister and I must learn his art of ignorance,” said Margaret. “If it be really true that the place is full of quarrels, we shall be afraid to stay, unless we can contrive to know nothing about them.”
“Oh, do not suppose we are worse than others who live in villages. Since our present rector came, we have risen somewhat above the rural average of peace and quiet.”
Chapter IV
"But Hope is, though a very happy man, not this sort of privileged person. His friends are so attached to him that they confide to him all their own affairs; but they respect him too much to gossip at large to him of other people’s. I see you do not know how to credit this; but I assure you, though the inhabitants of Deerbrook are as accomplished in the arts of gossip as any villagers in England, Hope knows little more than you do at this moment about who are upon terms and who are not.”
“My sister and I must learn his art of ignorance,” said Margaret. “If it be really true that the place is full of quarrels, we shall be afraid to stay, unless we can contrive to know nothing about them.”
“Oh, do not suppose we are worse than others who live in villages. Since our present rector came, we have risen somewhat above the rural average of peace and quiet.”
38lyzard
Regarding Maria Young, we should note that Harriet Martineau was one of the first popular writers to voice a serious concern about the working conditions of teachers and governesses (something, I think, that we tend to associate with the Brontes; naturally enough, since they were speaking from personal experience), which emanated both from her general concern about female education and work for women, and from observation in her own family.
Maria's attitude to her work and its likely success is interestingly sceptical, as is the novel's tacit argument that governesses can do only so much where there is a constant bad example set by parents.
Maria's attitude to her work and its likely success is interestingly sceptical, as is the novel's tacit argument that governesses can do only so much where there is a constant bad example set by parents.
39lauralkeet
I just read the first 3 chapters this evening and will probably read Chapter IV before bed. No questions but catching up on these posts has been helpful.
40souloftherose
>38 lyzard: Are we told how old Maria Young is? AT first I pictured her as older but then I think she is described as a young lady at some point?
Having read chapter 6 I found the discussion about mysteries went a bit over my head. What were they talking about?
Having read chapter 6 I found the discussion about mysteries went a bit over my head. What were they talking about?
41lyzard
>39 lauralkeet:
Good to hear, Laura.
>40 souloftherose:
It isn't explicit. I think we are to assume that she is several years older than the sisters, but still under thirty. (As you point out, she's still referred to as "young lady".)
I think the discourse upon "mysteries" in Chapter VI is intended chiefly as another way of differentiating the sisters, although what is said about poetry is true enough. The more emotional Hester prefers a more allegorical approach where the she is left with things to feel rather than understand, whereas Margaret likes clarity and depth, to get to the bottom of things and really understand them.
Margaret's preference for life over art - mysteries with solutions - then prompts a not-altogether serious reference to the advanced state of German scholarship in the 19th century, which was widely admired (though feared in some quarters), and which is referenced in a number of English novels of this period, including Middlemarch and (in passing) Barchester Towers.
And then the conversation circles back (indirectly) to the contrasting natures of the sisters:
“Surely you are rather hard upon arts and devices,” said Philip. “Without more or fewer of them, we should make our world into a Palace of Truth,---see the Veillées du Château, which Matilda is reading with Miss Young. Who ever read it, that did not think the Palace of Truth the most disagreeable place in the world?”
“And why?” asked Margaret. “Not because the people in it spoke truth; but because the truth which they spoke was hatred, and malice, and selfishness.”
“And how much better,” inquired Hester, “is the truth that we should speak, if we were as true as the daylight? I hope we shall always be allowed to make mysteries of our own selfish and unkind fancies. There would be little mutual respect left if these things were told.”
“I think there would be more than ever,” said Margaret, carefully avoiding to meet her sister’s eye. “I think so many mistakes would be explained, so many false impressions set right, on the instant of their being made, that our mutual relations would go on more harmoniously than now.”
But we should note the Hester and Margaret are united in their opinion of the need for openness and trust in a love relationship; Philip Enderby's responses suggests that up until know he's been more interested in love as a game than as "a serious business".
Good to hear, Laura.
>40 souloftherose:
It isn't explicit. I think we are to assume that she is several years older than the sisters, but still under thirty. (As you point out, she's still referred to as "young lady".)
I think the discourse upon "mysteries" in Chapter VI is intended chiefly as another way of differentiating the sisters, although what is said about poetry is true enough. The more emotional Hester prefers a more allegorical approach where the she is left with things to feel rather than understand, whereas Margaret likes clarity and depth, to get to the bottom of things and really understand them.
Margaret's preference for life over art - mysteries with solutions - then prompts a not-altogether serious reference to the advanced state of German scholarship in the 19th century, which was widely admired (though feared in some quarters), and which is referenced in a number of English novels of this period, including Middlemarch and (in passing) Barchester Towers.
And then the conversation circles back (indirectly) to the contrasting natures of the sisters:
“Surely you are rather hard upon arts and devices,” said Philip. “Without more or fewer of them, we should make our world into a Palace of Truth,---see the Veillées du Château, which Matilda is reading with Miss Young. Who ever read it, that did not think the Palace of Truth the most disagreeable place in the world?”
“And why?” asked Margaret. “Not because the people in it spoke truth; but because the truth which they spoke was hatred, and malice, and selfishness.”
“And how much better,” inquired Hester, “is the truth that we should speak, if we were as true as the daylight? I hope we shall always be allowed to make mysteries of our own selfish and unkind fancies. There would be little mutual respect left if these things were told.”
“I think there would be more than ever,” said Margaret, carefully avoiding to meet her sister’s eye. “I think so many mistakes would be explained, so many false impressions set right, on the instant of their being made, that our mutual relations would go on more harmoniously than now.”
But we should note the Hester and Margaret are united in their opinion of the need for openness and trust in a love relationship; Philip Enderby's responses suggests that up until know he's been more interested in love as a game than as "a serious business".
42cbl_tn
I've read through chapter 10. The sisters and their relationship remind me as much of Howard's End as Jane Austen.
43lyzard
That's an interesting comparison!
The sisters trope allows a lot of scope to a writer purely on the level of character, then you get to add in a whole range of topics impinging of society and women's lives... It isn't surprising it is resorted to so often.
The sisters trope allows a lot of scope to a writer purely on the level of character, then you get to add in a whole range of topics impinging of society and women's lives... It isn't surprising it is resorted to so often.
44cbl_tn
>43 lyzard: Wilkie Collins's No Name is another interesting sister novel. It might make a good group read some day!
46souloftherose
>42 cbl_tn:, >44 cbl_tn: I've not read either of those but you've reminded me I've had a copy of Howard's End on my shelf for years.....
I'm quietly enjoying this book very much. Just finished chapter 12 and all I will say for now is 'oh dear'.
But the section quoted in >21 kac522: made me smile.
I'm quietly enjoying this book very much. Just finished chapter 12 and all I will say for now is 'oh dear'.
But the section quoted in >21 kac522: made me smile.
47japaul22
I'm getting through this pretty quickly and very much enjoying it. I'm up to CHapter 21.
The moral dilemma/love triangle that Hope knowingly puts himself into is pretty intense - all 3 living together. I have a lot of sympathy for Hester, who doesn't explicitly understand what her husband is going through, but I have to think that at least some of her theatrics are from a sense that she does not possess "all" of her husband.
I get a little bored reading some of the longer, flowery, moral/ethical musings of the various characters, but overall I'm really enjoying this. Do you think these passages are more of a throwback to the overwrought 18th century novels or a looking ahead to later styles? I'm not sure I know what I'm quite asking there . . .
The moral dilemma/love triangle that Hope knowingly puts himself into is pretty intense - all 3 living together. I have a lot of sympathy for Hester, who doesn't explicitly understand what her husband is going through, but I have to think that at least some of her theatrics are from a sense that she does not possess "all" of her husband.
I get a little bored reading some of the longer, flowery, moral/ethical musings of the various characters, but overall I'm really enjoying this. Do you think these passages are more of a throwback to the overwrought 18th century novels or a looking ahead to later styles? I'm not sure I know what I'm quite asking there . . .
48souloftherose
And moving on to chapter 13, the speed with which the news was spread around the village amused me a lot.
I hadn't originally read much into Hester's 'moods' but from the discussion in chapter 14 I'm wondering whether Hester suffers from what we would now diagnose as some kind of mental illness. The way she describes her struggle with these negative emotions and thoughts made me wonder if this is more akin to some kind of depression?
I hadn't originally read much into Hester's 'moods' but from the discussion in chapter 14 I'm wondering whether Hester suffers from what we would now diagnose as some kind of mental illness. The way she describes her struggle with these negative emotions and thoughts made me wonder if this is more akin to some kind of depression?
49lauralkeet
I'm still a bit behind Heather (maybe it's the time difference lol), having just finished Chapter 12 and the infamous toes under the table scene. What is Hope thinking??!
50lyzard
I have to say that I found Chapter 11 amazingly painful---though fascinating as an examination of the capacity of some people for self-deception.
“But that is not what I mean. You have made it difficult for me to explain myself. I hardly know how to say it; but it must be said. You have mistaken my intentions,—mistaken them altogether.”
It was now Mrs Grey’s turn to change colour. She asked in a trembling voice:
“Do you mean to say, Mr Hope, that you have not been paying attentions to Hester Ibbotson?”
“I do say so; that I have paid no attentions of the nature you suppose. You compel me to speak plainly.”
“Then I must speak plainly too, Mr Hope. If any one had told me you would play the part you have played, I should have resented the imputation as I resent your conduct now. If you have not intended to win Hester’s affections, you have behaved infamously. You have won her attachment by attentions which have never varied, from the very first evening that she entered our house, till this afternoon. You have amused yourself with her, it seems; and now you are going to break her heart.”
It is extremely unusual to find a man being placed in this sort of moral dilemma. The specifics of this situation speak to a recurrent theme in the novel, but I might leave that discussion for a late time when people are a bit further along.
Another thing that is interesting here (and perhaps indicative of a female author) is the touch of various superficial observers assuming that all the men must be interested in Hester, as "the pretty one", whereas both Mr Hope and Mr Enderby zero in fairly quickly on Margaret. (Interesting too that the hyper-vigilant Mrs sRowland is correct in her observations, seeing what she doesn't want to see, whereas Mrs Grey sees what she does want to see.)
“But that is not what I mean. You have made it difficult for me to explain myself. I hardly know how to say it; but it must be said. You have mistaken my intentions,—mistaken them altogether.”
It was now Mrs Grey’s turn to change colour. She asked in a trembling voice:
“Do you mean to say, Mr Hope, that you have not been paying attentions to Hester Ibbotson?”
“I do say so; that I have paid no attentions of the nature you suppose. You compel me to speak plainly.”
“Then I must speak plainly too, Mr Hope. If any one had told me you would play the part you have played, I should have resented the imputation as I resent your conduct now. If you have not intended to win Hester’s affections, you have behaved infamously. You have won her attachment by attentions which have never varied, from the very first evening that she entered our house, till this afternoon. You have amused yourself with her, it seems; and now you are going to break her heart.”
It is extremely unusual to find a man being placed in this sort of moral dilemma. The specifics of this situation speak to a recurrent theme in the novel, but I might leave that discussion for a late time when people are a bit further along.
Another thing that is interesting here (and perhaps indicative of a female author) is the touch of various superficial observers assuming that all the men must be interested in Hester, as "the pretty one", whereas both Mr Hope and Mr Enderby zero in fairly quickly on Margaret. (Interesting too that the hyper-vigilant Mrs sRowland is correct in her observations, seeing what she doesn't want to see, whereas Mrs Grey sees what she does want to see.)
51lyzard
>47 japaul22:, >48 souloftherose:
Such passages were more common than not in "serious" women's writing throughout both the 18th and 19th centuries. Women were under a lot of pressure to justify themselves in writing at all, and a didactic tone or purpose, a sense of a novel acting as a moral guide for young female readers in particular, was often the result. Women weren't supposed to write merely to entertain.
That said, my impression is that Harriet Martineau was "naturally didactic", if I can put it that way; that the attraction to her of the novel was the opportunity for this sort of intense analysis of moral and religious feeling and duty.
I think Hester is intended as a cautionary tale about the consequences of young women not learning to master their emotions and practice self-control. She fails in her duty as a woman in that she recognises her faults but does not sufficiently strive to overcome them; her misery and that of the people around her is the result. Her jealousy is indicative of a lack of faith---expressed in a human context but emanating, it is implied, from a larger want of proper religious faith.
Such passages were more common than not in "serious" women's writing throughout both the 18th and 19th centuries. Women were under a lot of pressure to justify themselves in writing at all, and a didactic tone or purpose, a sense of a novel acting as a moral guide for young female readers in particular, was often the result. Women weren't supposed to write merely to entertain.
That said, my impression is that Harriet Martineau was "naturally didactic", if I can put it that way; that the attraction to her of the novel was the opportunity for this sort of intense analysis of moral and religious feeling and duty.
I think Hester is intended as a cautionary tale about the consequences of young women not learning to master their emotions and practice self-control. She fails in her duty as a woman in that she recognises her faults but does not sufficiently strive to overcome them; her misery and that of the people around her is the result. Her jealousy is indicative of a lack of faith---expressed in a human context but emanating, it is implied, from a larger want of proper religious faith.
52lyzard
Thank you to those who have added comments---how are others getting on? Where is everyone up to?
53kac522
I'm enjoying the book. My edition is split into three Volumes, and I'm about to start Volume III, which I think is about Chapter 33.
55kac522
Just sped through Volume III and have finished. Whew! is about all I can say--a lot happens, and Mrs Rowland is quite a piece of work.
57outrageoussocks
Hi, Group -- I have been lurking, and hadn't signed on because I wasn't quite sure I would keep up. I still am not keeping up. But I did crack the novel open last night, so I thought I would at least join in a little rather than not at all! I read up through Chapter 4 only so far. The chapters are in nice manageable little chunks, good for snatching brief episodes of reading.
I am not as far along as others, but I will keep up with and "listen in on" the discussion going on here, even if I don't write much.
Because the book so far is fairly transparent in its bias of "substance" as being the most valued character trait, and because it isn't seamless, it is quite fun to read. It is a little like observing a religious, or morally fastidious, writer finally decide to just go for it and write a fun book. And not leave integrity behind but rather show it off a bit by surrounding it with complications?
Sounds like it will get more complicated and dramatic, and so it is good to know there is some of that to look forward to. ;)
I am not as far along as others, but I will keep up with and "listen in on" the discussion going on here, even if I don't write much.
Because the book so far is fairly transparent in its bias of "substance" as being the most valued character trait, and because it isn't seamless, it is quite fun to read. It is a little like observing a religious, or morally fastidious, writer finally decide to just go for it and write a fun book. And not leave integrity behind but rather show it off a bit by surrounding it with complications?
Sounds like it will get more complicated and dramatic, and so it is good to know there is some of that to look forward to. ;)
58lyzard
Welcome, Jen! It's great that you've decided to join us. :)
I think you've summed the book up quite nicely. Increasingly over the 19th century it became accepted that the novel was a powerful vehicle for conveying serious stories and themes, and certainly Harriet Martineau had that intention here. As Jennifer mentioned in >47 japaul22:, sometimes her proselyting gets a bit intrusive, but I think on the whole she's wrapped her messages up in a pretty compelling narrative. ("Complicated and dramatic", yes!)
I think you've summed the book up quite nicely. Increasingly over the 19th century it became accepted that the novel was a powerful vehicle for conveying serious stories and themes, and certainly Harriet Martineau had that intention here. As Jennifer mentioned in >47 japaul22:, sometimes her proselyting gets a bit intrusive, but I think on the whole she's wrapped her messages up in a pretty compelling narrative. ("Complicated and dramatic", yes!)
59Sakerfalcon
I've just started chapter 22. Lots of drama at the moment!
I like how the opening of the book imagine people passing through Deerbrook and thinking what a lovely place it would be to live, but as the novel proceeds it is revealed to be anything but. Hope's bitter remark, "Tellers of bad news are never wanting, especially in Deerbrook" sums up the toxic atmosphere perfectly.
I was wondering, was it usual at that time for people to reveal who they had voted for in political elections? Nowadays the right to keep your vote secret is sacrosanct, and doing so would certainly have helped smooth things for Hope and Hester.
I like how the opening of the book imagine people passing through Deerbrook and thinking what a lovely place it would be to live, but as the novel proceeds it is revealed to be anything but. Hope's bitter remark, "Tellers of bad news are never wanting, especially in Deerbrook" sums up the toxic atmosphere perfectly.
I was wondering, was it usual at that time for people to reveal who they had voted for in political elections? Nowadays the right to keep your vote secret is sacrosanct, and doing so would certainly have helped smooth things for Hope and Hester.
60CDVicarage
>59 Sakerfalcon: The right to a secret ballot wasn't introduced until 1872 in UK.
61Sakerfalcon
>60 CDVicarage: Thank you! Somehow I never really studied history at school ...
62SassyLassy
Just got caught up if we are going with at least two chapters a day, and have reached chapter 20, after starting a week late. I suspect I will now move along quite quickly and am quite enjoying it. It was a relief to finally read this thread!
>38 lyzard: The discussion of governesses also reminds me of Mrs Oliphant and Hester. Mrs O hoped for more options for women/girls in Hester's position and so did Hester, skilfully avoiding such a fate.
>2 lyzard: May I also just say what a wonderful job I think you are doing with guiding this read.
>38 lyzard: The discussion of governesses also reminds me of Mrs Oliphant and Hester. Mrs O hoped for more options for women/girls in Hester's position and so did Hester, skilfully avoiding such a fate.
>2 lyzard: May I also just say what a wonderful job I think you are doing with guiding this read.
63lyzard
>59 Sakerfalcon:
Yes! And those early, apparently benign or at least unconcerned remarks about village gossip become increasingly sinister as we see exactly what gossip can do.
Yes! And those early, apparently benign or at least unconcerned remarks about village gossip become increasingly sinister as we see exactly what gossip can do.
64lyzard
>59 Sakerfalcon:
Thank you too for mentioning the election subplot as this is something I wanted to discuss in a broader context.
Those of you who have been involved in the group reads of Anthony Trollope's 'Palliser' novels will have seen the farther end of the electoral reform that was just beginning to stir around the time of Deerbrook. Although it isn't obvious in this novel that any reform had taken place, the First Reform Bill was passed in 1832 and was the start of an attempt to clean up the electoral system---not just extending the franchise, but eliminating pocket and rotten boroughs, changing representation to reflect the population distribution, and introducing secret balloting.
As Kerry mentions, the secret ballot wasn't introduced until 1872. There was a lot of resistance to it, partly because landowners (often in Parliament or the House of Lords) wanted to retain their ability to control elections, partly because of a feeling that those privileged to vote should have the courage to publicly stand by their actions. However, here we see exactly why the secret ballot was necessary: anyone opposing the landowners could be (and often were) brutally punished for it; tradespeople in particular, in the country, literally lived or died on whether they received the custom of "the big house" and therefore could not afford to do other than they were told.
By the time of Trollope's The Prime Minister, the secret ballot has been passed; yet we see the lingering behaviours of two hundred years of an electorate being told how to vote, with no-one really believing Plantagenet Palliser when he says he has no intention of interfering in the local election (as his uncle, the previous Duke of Omnium, always did as a matter of course), and Plantagenet having to jump up and down about it before anyone accepts that he means what he says.
The interesting aspect of the situation in Deerbrook is that Hope's choice, Mr Lowry, is actually elected; so it's not as if he was doing something particularly radical by voting for him: he was obviously the popular choice. But because he wasn't Sir William Hunter's choice, disaster follows.
Thank you too for mentioning the election subplot as this is something I wanted to discuss in a broader context.
Those of you who have been involved in the group reads of Anthony Trollope's 'Palliser' novels will have seen the farther end of the electoral reform that was just beginning to stir around the time of Deerbrook. Although it isn't obvious in this novel that any reform had taken place, the First Reform Bill was passed in 1832 and was the start of an attempt to clean up the electoral system---not just extending the franchise, but eliminating pocket and rotten boroughs, changing representation to reflect the population distribution, and introducing secret balloting.
As Kerry mentions, the secret ballot wasn't introduced until 1872. There was a lot of resistance to it, partly because landowners (often in Parliament or the House of Lords) wanted to retain their ability to control elections, partly because of a feeling that those privileged to vote should have the courage to publicly stand by their actions. However, here we see exactly why the secret ballot was necessary: anyone opposing the landowners could be (and often were) brutally punished for it; tradespeople in particular, in the country, literally lived or died on whether they received the custom of "the big house" and therefore could not afford to do other than they were told.
By the time of Trollope's The Prime Minister, the secret ballot has been passed; yet we see the lingering behaviours of two hundred years of an electorate being told how to vote, with no-one really believing Plantagenet Palliser when he says he has no intention of interfering in the local election (as his uncle, the previous Duke of Omnium, always did as a matter of course), and Plantagenet having to jump up and down about it before anyone accepts that he means what he says.
The interesting aspect of the situation in Deerbrook is that Hope's choice, Mr Lowry, is actually elected; so it's not as if he was doing something particularly radical by voting for him: he was obviously the popular choice. But because he wasn't Sir William Hunter's choice, disaster follows.
65lyzard
>62 SassyLassy:
Welcome! - and thank you. :)
The position of governesses and teachers, and conversely children's education, particularly education for girls and women, became an increasingly prominent theme throughout 19th century literature. On one hand there was the burgeoning push for greater employment opportunities for women, on the other a growing sense that the old educational system wasn't sufficient any more, for either sex. In fact girls may have done better than boys in this respect, as the public schools and universities were slow in evolving, whereas the new schools and colleges for girls took pride in being "up to date".
Welcome! - and thank you. :)
The position of governesses and teachers, and conversely children's education, particularly education for girls and women, became an increasingly prominent theme throughout 19th century literature. On one hand there was the burgeoning push for greater employment opportunities for women, on the other a growing sense that the old educational system wasn't sufficient any more, for either sex. In fact girls may have done better than boys in this respect, as the public schools and universities were slow in evolving, whereas the new schools and colleges for girls took pride in being "up to date".
66lauralkeet
>64 lyzard: I'm only on Chapter XVII but found this so informative. I especially love the way you connected this to the Palliser novels, having just read The Prime Minister under your tutelage!
67souloftherose
>50 lyzard: Yes, chapter 11 was painful and I haven't found that story gets less painful so far (chapter 16He was amazed at the return of his feelings about Margaret, and filled with horror when he thought of the days, and months, and years of close domestic companionship with her, from which there was no escape. ).
>51 lyzard: Thanks for that, I think that's become a bit clearer now that I'm further along in the book.
>59 Sakerfalcon: 'I like how the opening of the book imagine people passing through Deerbrook and thinking what a lovely place it would be to live, but as the novel proceeds it is revealed to be anything but.'
Ha! Yes.
There were a couple of very minor points I wanted to ask about.
In chapter 12 there's a passage where Margaret reads aloud from the Society book (the 40 pages an evening) - some kind of book subscription/lending library like Mudie's that then got passed round the village?
In chapter 13 when Sophia is merrily spreading her piece of news around the village as fast as she can, there's mention of worsteds for Mrs Grey's rug in Mrs Howell's shop. Was there some kind of fashion for rug-making at the time? "We have no relief, ma’am, from ladies wanting worsteds.”
>51 lyzard: Thanks for that, I think that's become a bit clearer now that I'm further along in the book.
>59 Sakerfalcon: 'I like how the opening of the book imagine people passing through Deerbrook and thinking what a lovely place it would be to live, but as the novel proceeds it is revealed to be anything but.'
Ha! Yes.
There were a couple of very minor points I wanted to ask about.
In chapter 12 there's a passage where Margaret reads aloud from the Society book (the 40 pages an evening) - some kind of book subscription/lending library like Mudie's that then got passed round the village?
In chapter 13 when Sophia is merrily spreading her piece of news around the village as fast as she can, there's mention of worsteds for Mrs Grey's rug in Mrs Howell's shop. Was there some kind of fashion for rug-making at the time? "We have no relief, ma’am, from ladies wanting worsteds.”
68lyzard
>67 souloftherose:
When the Ibbotsons first arrive and Mrs Grey is expounding to them about all the pleasures of living in Deerbrook, she mentions that they have a book club---that is, a group of them choose and order a book, and pass it around for everyone to read, rather (as we do now) everyone getting getting a copy to discuss. The village doesn't have the population or the interest to warrant a bookstore, so they place their orders at the nearest town. Presumably everyone has the book for a set period of time, and so it is necessary to get through a certain number of pages a day.
Rug-making is mentioned explicitly, but there is also a reference to cross-stitching, so wall-hangings might also have been a fashionable occupation. As Mrs Howell groans, it isn't worsteds per se that are the issue, but matching them: worsteds came in a variety of qualities (fine or coarse), and there wasn't the large batch dyeing that we do now, so colours and textures could vary. If your supply ran out you might have to hunt for another of the same characteristics. (Possibly Mrs Howell has to order a lot more worsteds than she can sell, knowing that her customers will pick the eyes out and leave the rest.)
When the Ibbotsons first arrive and Mrs Grey is expounding to them about all the pleasures of living in Deerbrook, she mentions that they have a book club---that is, a group of them choose and order a book, and pass it around for everyone to read, rather (as we do now) everyone getting getting a copy to discuss. The village doesn't have the population or the interest to warrant a bookstore, so they place their orders at the nearest town. Presumably everyone has the book for a set period of time, and so it is necessary to get through a certain number of pages a day.
Rug-making is mentioned explicitly, but there is also a reference to cross-stitching, so wall-hangings might also have been a fashionable occupation. As Mrs Howell groans, it isn't worsteds per se that are the issue, but matching them: worsteds came in a variety of qualities (fine or coarse), and there wasn't the large batch dyeing that we do now, so colours and textures could vary. If your supply ran out you might have to hunt for another of the same characteristics. (Possibly Mrs Howell has to order a lot more worsteds than she can sell, knowing that her customers will pick the eyes out and leave the rest.)
69lyzard
Love this:
Chapter 13:
“Oh, so he is going to marry Deborah Giles, after all?”
“Deborah Giles!”
“Yes; was he not said to be engaged to her, some time ago?”
“Deborah Giles! the boatman’s daughter! I declare I never heard of such a place as this for gossip! Why, Deborah Giles can barely read and write; and she is beneath Mr Hope in every way. I do not believe he ever spoke to her in his life.”
“Oh, well; I do not pretend to know. I heard something about it. Eleven and threepence. Can you change a sovereign, Mr Jones? And, pray, send home the chops immediately.”
“It is my cousin, Miss Ibbotson, that Mr Hope is engaged to,” said Sophia, unable to refrain from disclosures which she yet saw were not cared for:---“the beautiful Miss Ibbotson, you know.”
“Indeed: I am sure somebody said it was Deborah Giles.”
Chapter 13:
“Oh, so he is going to marry Deborah Giles, after all?”
“Deborah Giles!”
“Yes; was he not said to be engaged to her, some time ago?”
“Deborah Giles! the boatman’s daughter! I declare I never heard of such a place as this for gossip! Why, Deborah Giles can barely read and write; and she is beneath Mr Hope in every way. I do not believe he ever spoke to her in his life.”
“Oh, well; I do not pretend to know. I heard something about it. Eleven and threepence. Can you change a sovereign, Mr Jones? And, pray, send home the chops immediately.”
“It is my cousin, Miss Ibbotson, that Mr Hope is engaged to,” said Sophia, unable to refrain from disclosures which she yet saw were not cared for:---“the beautiful Miss Ibbotson, you know.”
“Indeed: I am sure somebody said it was Deborah Giles.”
70japaul22
>67 souloftherose: I highlighted the quote you put under your spoiler as well.
Chapter 16
It's such an awful premise. It struck me that I can't remember many men in literature who feel trapped in a marriage while loving someone else. It is much more often the women who end up in that circumstance, often because of trying to secure their future financially. (or maybe I'm just biased toward remembering the women, being a woman!) Hope seems to have done this to himself out of guilt or pride or despair over never being able to have Margaret anyway.
Chapter 16
It's such an awful premise. It struck me that I can't remember many men in literature who feel trapped in a marriage while loving someone else. It is much more often the women who end up in that circumstance, often because of trying to secure their future financially. (or maybe I'm just biased toward remembering the women, being a woman!) Hope seems to have done this to himself out of guilt or pride or despair over never being able to have Margaret anyway.
71lyzard
No, it usually is a woman, because as you say they had so little choice about how to live their lives; but occasionally, as here, you do find a man being placed in a situation of being obliged to do "the honourable thing".
(And it is fascinating that Hope is so torn over what, exactly *is* "the honourable thing" in such circumstances.)
The social code demanded that if a man made a woman think he intended to marry her (or, perhaps even more to the point, if his behaviour made other people think so), then he was obliged to fulfil the tacit promise.
Of course the tragedy is that Hope has done none of the things that Mrs Grey accuses him of. She's half-right, in that she's seen what's going on with Hester; but even so that's more in the realm of a lucky guess. She's been so determined on this marriage from the outset that she probably would have "seen" that Hester was in love, as she "sees" that Hope is leading her on, no matter what was going on.
(Interesting to compare Mrs Grey's selective vision with the failed match-making in Emma: at least Emma never brought about this sort of marriage with her meddling!)
(And it is fascinating that Hope is so torn over what, exactly *is* "the honourable thing" in such circumstances.)
The social code demanded that if a man made a woman think he intended to marry her (or, perhaps even more to the point, if his behaviour made other people think so), then he was obliged to fulfil the tacit promise.
Of course the tragedy is that Hope has done none of the things that Mrs Grey accuses him of. She's half-right, in that she's seen what's going on with Hester; but even so that's more in the realm of a lucky guess. She's been so determined on this marriage from the outset that she probably would have "seen" that Hester was in love, as she "sees" that Hope is leading her on, no matter what was going on.
(Interesting to compare Mrs Grey's selective vision with the failed match-making in Emma: at least Emma never brought about this sort of marriage with her meddling!)
72cbl_tn
This book is reminding me more and more of Sense and Sensibility. The tone seems more pessimistic.
I was surprised by the intensity of Margaret's feelings when she learned in Chapter 20 & 21 thatPhilip Enderby is engaged. At least supposedly. Didn't we learn in his conversation with his sister that the girl's family is in Rome for 3 years? Anyway, Margaret didn't seem any more interested in Enderby than she was in Hope, until she found out he was engaged and unavailable. Or did I miss signs of Margaret's feelings in earlier chapters? I know Hope thought she was attached to Enderby, but I didn't see it.
I was surprised by the intensity of Margaret's feelings when she learned in Chapter 20 & 21 that
73Sakerfalcon
>72 cbl_tn: I didn't think Margaret's feelings were foregrounded at all either. I think I noticed a sentence that said something like "She had been unaware of her feelings for him until now", but that was after the rumour had spread and it was a blink-and-you'll-miss-it mention and, frankly, a rather weak explanation of the sudden change.
I'm now up to the Boating chapter, having flown through the events of the last few chapters unable to put the book down. Martineau certainly knows how to write a dramatic scene. I am very glad that the predictions that Hester will rise to the occasion when adversity hits were correct, and that she's showing some really positive character growth.
The strong focus on the power of false report and its potentially destructive consequences feels very timely as the issue of "fake news" dominates our media at present.
I'm now up to the Boating chapter, having flown through the events of the last few chapters unable to put the book down. Martineau certainly knows how to write a dramatic scene. I am very glad that
The strong focus on the power of false report and its potentially destructive consequences feels very timely as the issue of "fake news" dominates our media at present.
74lauralkeet
>72 cbl_tn: I was wondering about this, too. I'm up to Chapter 22 now ...
75souloftherose
>73 Sakerfalcon: I'm also speeding ahead and agree about the boating chapter. Also the events of chapter 28 really took me by surprise - I hadn't expected things to escalate that far.
Ironically my paper copy from the Book Depository has finally arrived - just a I'm hitting the 90% mark in my ebook!
Ironically my paper copy from the Book Depository has finally arrived - just a I'm hitting the 90% mark in my ebook!
76lyzard
Okay, I think most people are far enough along for me to make the point I skipped over earlier---
I was struck by how strongly this novel insists that there is nothing in life more humiliating for a woman than to fall in love with a man who doesn't love her.
Chapter 5
It never went further than this,---except in Maria’s own heart. She had, indeed, hoped—even supposed—that in Philip’s mind the affair had at least been entertained thus far. She could never settle to her own satisfaction whether she had been weak and mistaken, or whether she had really been in any degree wronged... She got through it calmly, and it left her with one subject at least of intense thankfulness,---that her mind was known only to herself. Whatever might be her solitary struggles, she might look without shame into the face of every human being. She could bear being pitied for her poverty, for her lameness, for her change of prospects...
Chapter 10
Hester was little alarmed in comparison; but she this night underwent the discovery which her sister had made some little time ago. She discovered that nothing could happen to her so dreadful as any evil befalling Mr Hope. She discovered that he was more to her than the sister whom she could have declared, but a few hours before, to be the dearest on earth to her. She discovered that she was for ever humbled in her own eyes; that her self-respect had received an incurable wound... Whichever way she looked at the case, it was all wretchedness. She had lost her self-sufficiency and self-respect, and she was miserable.
Chapter 15
"At the image of his dwelling anywhere but by her side, of his having any interest apart from hers, the universe is, in a moment, shrouded in gloom. Her heart is sick, and there is no rest for it, for her self-respect is gone. She has been reared in a maidenly pride, and an innocent confidence: her confidence is wholly broken-down; her pride is wounded and the agony of the wound is intolerable."
Chapter 21
The fault was all her own. She had been full of herself, full of vanity; fancying, without cause, that she was much to another when she was little. She was humbled now, and she no doubt deserved it. But how ineffably weak and mean did she appear in her own eyes! It was this which clouded Heaven to her at the moment that earth had become a desert. She felt so debased, that she durst not ask for strength where she was wont to find it. If she had done one single wrong thing, she thought she could bear the consequences cheerfully, and seek support, and vigorously set about repairing the causes of her fault; but here it seemed to her that her whole state of mind had been low and selfish. It must be this sort of blindness which had led her so far in so fearful a delusion. And if the whole condition of her mind had been low and selfish, while her conscience had given her no hint of anything being amiss, where was she to begin to rectify her being? She felt wholly degraded...
She was stripped of all her heart’s treasure, of his tones, his ways, his thoughts,---a treasure which she had lived upon without knowing it; she was stripped of it all---cast out---left alone---and he and all others would go on their ways, unaware that anything had happened! Let them do so. It was hard to bear up in solitude when self-respect was gone with all the rest...
This is something you do encounter quite a lot in 19th century literature, the suggestion that a woman isn't "supposed" to fall in love until she knows she is loved; but I've never seen the flip-side of that presented so insistently as in Deerbrook, where it is an important aspect of all three of the younger female characters. In fact it's so very insistent that I have to wonder if this was Harriet Martineau speaking from some bitter experience of her own, rather than really describing the natural state of things. The obsessive reiteration of loss of self-respect in this situation is striking.
And as has been noted, the other thing insisted upon is that even when a woman is in love, she won't understand her own feelings until some sort of shock "reveals them" to her---in Hester's case, Hope's accident; in Margaret's Enderby's supposed engagement. We don't hear this for Maria, true, but it is she who insists that this *is* the way it must happen, that there must be sudden understanding rather than progressive recognition:
Chapter 15
"Some such trifle reveals to her that she depends wholly upon him---that she has for long been living only for him, and on the unconscious conclusion that he has been living only for her."
Surely few things were ever more difficult in the 19th century than being a properly "nice" young woman, with all these ridiculous shibboleths surrounding what you were and were not "supposed" to feel, what you were and were not "supposed" to understand about yourself!
(The corollary to this, too, is that no "nice" girl ever really gets over her first love, and that she shouldn't; male writers in particular insist upon that one.)
But how seriously was any of this taken in real life? Was it something that actually did go on, or is it one of those refinements in literature that tend to give us a false impression of how society functioned? It's very hard to know---although perhaps we can get some guidance on the subject by turning (as always!) to Jane Austen, and Charlotte Lucas's prosaic advice on dealing with just this situation:
"It may perhaps be pleasant," replied Charlotte, "to be able to impose on the public in such a case; but it is sometimes a disadvantage to be so very guarded. If a woman conceals her affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose the opportunity of fixing him; and it will then be but poor consolation to believe the world equally in the dark. There is so much of gratitude or vanity in almost every attachment, that it is not safe to leave any to itself. We can all begin freely---a slight preference is natural enough; but there are very few of us who have heart enough to be really in love without encouragement. In nine cases out of ten, a woman had better shew more affection than she feels. Bingley likes your sister undoubtedly; but he may never do more than like her, if she does not help him on."
Am I the only one who feels that this is probably closer to how things really worked?? :)
I was struck by how strongly this novel insists that there is nothing in life more humiliating for a woman than to fall in love with a man who doesn't love her.
Chapter 5
It never went further than this,---except in Maria’s own heart. She had, indeed, hoped—even supposed—that in Philip’s mind the affair had at least been entertained thus far. She could never settle to her own satisfaction whether she had been weak and mistaken, or whether she had really been in any degree wronged... She got through it calmly, and it left her with one subject at least of intense thankfulness,---that her mind was known only to herself. Whatever might be her solitary struggles, she might look without shame into the face of every human being. She could bear being pitied for her poverty, for her lameness, for her change of prospects...
Chapter 10
Hester was little alarmed in comparison; but she this night underwent the discovery which her sister had made some little time ago. She discovered that nothing could happen to her so dreadful as any evil befalling Mr Hope. She discovered that he was more to her than the sister whom she could have declared, but a few hours before, to be the dearest on earth to her. She discovered that she was for ever humbled in her own eyes; that her self-respect had received an incurable wound... Whichever way she looked at the case, it was all wretchedness. She had lost her self-sufficiency and self-respect, and she was miserable.
Chapter 15
"At the image of his dwelling anywhere but by her side, of his having any interest apart from hers, the universe is, in a moment, shrouded in gloom. Her heart is sick, and there is no rest for it, for her self-respect is gone. She has been reared in a maidenly pride, and an innocent confidence: her confidence is wholly broken-down; her pride is wounded and the agony of the wound is intolerable."
Chapter 21
The fault was all her own. She had been full of herself, full of vanity; fancying, without cause, that she was much to another when she was little. She was humbled now, and she no doubt deserved it. But how ineffably weak and mean did she appear in her own eyes! It was this which clouded Heaven to her at the moment that earth had become a desert. She felt so debased, that she durst not ask for strength where she was wont to find it. If she had done one single wrong thing, she thought she could bear the consequences cheerfully, and seek support, and vigorously set about repairing the causes of her fault; but here it seemed to her that her whole state of mind had been low and selfish. It must be this sort of blindness which had led her so far in so fearful a delusion. And if the whole condition of her mind had been low and selfish, while her conscience had given her no hint of anything being amiss, where was she to begin to rectify her being? She felt wholly degraded...
She was stripped of all her heart’s treasure, of his tones, his ways, his thoughts,---a treasure which she had lived upon without knowing it; she was stripped of it all---cast out---left alone---and he and all others would go on their ways, unaware that anything had happened! Let them do so. It was hard to bear up in solitude when self-respect was gone with all the rest...
This is something you do encounter quite a lot in 19th century literature, the suggestion that a woman isn't "supposed" to fall in love until she knows she is loved; but I've never seen the flip-side of that presented so insistently as in Deerbrook, where it is an important aspect of all three of the younger female characters. In fact it's so very insistent that I have to wonder if this was Harriet Martineau speaking from some bitter experience of her own, rather than really describing the natural state of things. The obsessive reiteration of loss of self-respect in this situation is striking.
And as has been noted, the other thing insisted upon is that even when a woman is in love, she won't understand her own feelings until some sort of shock "reveals them" to her---in Hester's case, Hope's accident; in Margaret's Enderby's supposed engagement. We don't hear this for Maria, true, but it is she who insists that this *is* the way it must happen, that there must be sudden understanding rather than progressive recognition:
Chapter 15
"Some such trifle reveals to her that she depends wholly upon him---that she has for long been living only for him, and on the unconscious conclusion that he has been living only for her."
Surely few things were ever more difficult in the 19th century than being a properly "nice" young woman, with all these ridiculous shibboleths surrounding what you were and were not "supposed" to feel, what you were and were not "supposed" to understand about yourself!
(The corollary to this, too, is that no "nice" girl ever really gets over her first love, and that she shouldn't; male writers in particular insist upon that one.)
But how seriously was any of this taken in real life? Was it something that actually did go on, or is it one of those refinements in literature that tend to give us a false impression of how society functioned? It's very hard to know---although perhaps we can get some guidance on the subject by turning (as always!) to Jane Austen, and Charlotte Lucas's prosaic advice on dealing with just this situation:
"It may perhaps be pleasant," replied Charlotte, "to be able to impose on the public in such a case; but it is sometimes a disadvantage to be so very guarded. If a woman conceals her affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose the opportunity of fixing him; and it will then be but poor consolation to believe the world equally in the dark. There is so much of gratitude or vanity in almost every attachment, that it is not safe to leave any to itself. We can all begin freely---a slight preference is natural enough; but there are very few of us who have heart enough to be really in love without encouragement. In nine cases out of ten, a woman had better shew more affection than she feels. Bingley likes your sister undoubtedly; but he may never do more than like her, if she does not help him on."
Am I the only one who feels that this is probably closer to how things really worked?? :)
77cbl_tn
>76 lyzard: It seems unusual that feelings are emphasized to the exclusion of questions of wealth/income. While Mrs. Rowland's actions are horrible, her motives aren't all that different from Lady Catherine de Bourgh's.
78lyzard
True, but then all of these people are more or less within the same socio-economic and class bracket; there would be a certain disparity of fortune, perhaps, but not to an extent to make someone ineligible---though other people might be more eligible, like the much name-checked Miss Mary Bruce.
The only place where money really comes into it is with Maria, whose father left her penniless, and there it is clear that it didn't really have anything to do with her romantic relationship (or lack thereof).
So Mrs Rowland doesn't really have solid ground for her objections to the Ibbotsons; whereas Lady Catharine was pushing for someone of the borderline aristocracy (with a large fortune) against someone connected with trade (and no fortune).
The only place where money really comes into it is with Maria, whose father left her penniless, and there it is clear that it didn't really have anything to do with her romantic relationship (or lack thereof).
So Mrs Rowland doesn't really have solid ground for her objections to the Ibbotsons; whereas Lady Catharine was pushing for someone of the borderline aristocracy (with a large fortune) against someone connected with trade (and no fortune).
79lyzard
And of course in the broader sense, this is a novel very much about the feelings, and the management of them, which is probably why we don't have class / fortune differences to muddy the waters.
80japaul22
>76 lyzard:
I don't think that it could have been common in "real life" for a woman to show no interest in a man and for marriages to still happen, unless they were completely arranged. I think it's pretty rare to actually fall in love with someone who has shown no interest in you. Generally, I think these things are mutually revealed and discovered. Of course, each culture and time period probably had its own "code words" or actions that helped a couple let each other know how they felt without having to come out and say "I love you". But in this book it seems to be taken to a completely impractical extreme. So much so that most of us didn't even catch that Margaret was interested in Enderby, let alone in love with him. In fact, I thought she was a little annoyed with him in the beginning.
I was definitely thinking of Jane in Pride and Prejudice later in the book as well. Around Chapter 37 (I don't have the book in front of me at the moment) when Enderby has broken things off with Margaret the second time, I thought that if she had been more demonstrative along the way, Enderby would have been less likely to believe the gossip about her and Hope. I suppose I was having a "Charlotte" moment!
And I'm not to the end yet but am around Chapter 38 and I'm thinking a lot about the comparison between Mrs. Grey and Mrs. Rowland. Mrs. Rowland is definitely malicious in her gossip and sets out to be destructive, but really, some of Mrs. Grey's gossiping and interfering is just as harmful though it isn't done with malicious intent. Are we supposed to forgive all of Mrs. Grey's interference and only condemn Mrs. Rowland?
I don't think that it could have been common in "real life" for a woman to show no interest in a man and for marriages to still happen, unless they were completely arranged. I think it's pretty rare to actually fall in love with someone who has shown no interest in you. Generally, I think these things are mutually revealed and discovered. Of course, each culture and time period probably had its own "code words" or actions that helped a couple let each other know how they felt without having to come out and say "I love you". But in this book it seems to be taken to a completely impractical extreme. So much so that most of us didn't even catch that Margaret was interested in Enderby, let alone in love with him. In fact, I thought she was a little annoyed with him in the beginning.
I was definitely thinking of Jane in Pride and Prejudice later in the book as well. Around Chapter 37 (I don't have the book in front of me at the moment) when Enderby has broken things off with Margaret the second time, I thought that if she had been more demonstrative along the way, Enderby would have been less likely to believe the gossip about her and Hope. I suppose I was having a "Charlotte" moment!
And I'm not to the end yet but am around Chapter 38 and I'm thinking a lot about the comparison between Mrs. Grey and Mrs. Rowland. Mrs. Rowland is definitely malicious in her gossip and sets out to be destructive, but really, some of Mrs. Grey's gossiping and interfering is just as harmful though it isn't done with malicious intent. Are we supposed to forgive all of Mrs. Grey's interference and only condemn Mrs. Rowland?
81lyzard
But if you're living in a society where nice girls are not supposed to show anything, what then?
I'm not saying I believe that's how things really were, more that I'm trying to judge how far something commonly asserted in books was realistic.
With respect to Margaret, I think it's more that we see her from the perspective of the other people and are not given insight into her feelings---until she has her "revelation", of course! But in addition this is another contrast between her and Hester: the latter shows her feelings (how shocking!) and Margaret doesn't.
This is one of several books I've read recently that turn on a man's willingness to think ill of the woman he supposedly loves. After everything (and knowing his sister), why does Enderby fall into the trap so easily?
Also, it's pretty exasperating to on one hand have a society that demands women not show their feelings, on the other to see a woman being judged and condemned because she hesitates to speak frankly about those feelings!
Are we supposed to forgive all of Mrs. Grey's interference and only condemn Mrs. Rowland?
Heavens, no!
I'm sure the point is that any meddling with other people's affairs, even when you "mean well", is likely to to do harm.
Mrs Rowland, though--- Can you imagine her in the age of internet trolling??
I'm not saying I believe that's how things really were, more that I'm trying to judge how far something commonly asserted in books was realistic.
With respect to Margaret, I think it's more that we see her from the perspective of the other people and are not given insight into her feelings---until she has her "revelation", of course! But in addition this is another contrast between her and Hester: the latter shows her feelings (how shocking!) and Margaret doesn't.
This is one of several books I've read recently that turn on a man's willingness to think ill of the woman he supposedly loves. After everything (and knowing his sister), why does Enderby fall into the trap so easily?
Also, it's pretty exasperating to on one hand have a society that demands women not show their feelings, on the other to see a woman being judged and condemned because she hesitates to speak frankly about those feelings!
Are we supposed to forgive all of Mrs. Grey's interference and only condemn Mrs. Rowland?
Heavens, no!
I'm sure the point is that any meddling with other people's affairs, even when you "mean well", is likely to to do harm.
Mrs Rowland, though--- Can you imagine her in the age of internet trolling??
82Sakerfalcon
>81 lyzard: After everything (and knowing his sister), why does Enderby fall into the trap so easily?
I thought that too - although he'd reasoned out all the evidence to where he thought it was watertight he never once even considered that the claim about Margaret's prior attachment might be false. And while Margaret excuses him by saying "He was just misled and mistaken", the fact is that, as you say, he fell into the same trap a second time.
Are we supposed to forgive all of Mrs. Grey's interference and only condemn Mrs. Rowland?
Mrs Grey sank almost to the same level as Mrs Rowland in my opinion in the chapter where she demands that Hope sleep at her house while Mr Grey is away, because she and Sophia are afraid, even though they have Sydney and servants on the premises. She never stops to think that that leaves 3 women and a new born baby with no protection.
I finished the book last night and really enjoyed the read. Perhaps Margaret, Hope and Hester are a bit too saintly in dealing with their adversity, and Margaret is certainly more forgiving of Enderby than I would have been! I've never been able to believe that the person who wronged me is actually suffering more than I am! Of the two romantic leads, Hope is far preferable in my mind. Mrs Rowland is almost a cartoon villain in her irrational hatred of the Greys and all connected with them, but apart from her the other characters are quite nicely nuanced. I especially liked that Walcot, who Martineau could have made lazy and incompetent, was actually a promising practitioner and, despite his belief in Mrs R, a decent man.
I thought that too - although he'd reasoned out all the evidence to where he thought it was watertight he never once even considered that the claim about Margaret's prior attachment might be false. And while Margaret excuses him by saying "He was just misled and mistaken", the fact is that, as you say, he fell into the same trap a second time.
Are we supposed to forgive all of Mrs. Grey's interference and only condemn Mrs. Rowland?
Mrs Grey sank almost to the same level as Mrs Rowland in my opinion in the chapter where she demands that Hope sleep at her house while Mr Grey is away, because she and Sophia are afraid, even though they have Sydney and servants on the premises. She never stops to think that that leaves 3 women and a new born baby with no protection.
I finished the book last night and really enjoyed the read. Perhaps Margaret, Hope and Hester are a bit too saintly in dealing with their adversity, and Margaret is certainly more forgiving of Enderby than I would have been! I've never been able to believe that the person who wronged me is actually suffering more than I am! Of the two romantic leads, Hope is far preferable in my mind. Mrs Rowland is almost a cartoon villain in her irrational hatred of the Greys and all connected with them, but apart from her the other characters are quite nicely nuanced. I especially liked that Walcot, who Martineau could have made lazy and incompetent, was actually a promising practitioner and, despite his belief in Mrs R, a decent man.
83japaul22
I finished the book last night and really enjoyed it. I liked the characters and the moral dilemmas they faced. I was a little annoyed at the longer didactic passages, but they didn't overly detract from the story for me. I was disappointed, though not surprised, by the ending. I suppose a book like this must end in the couple getting back together, but the modern-day woman in me wanted Margaret to get over Enderby and find her own path.
84kac522
>82 Sakerfalcon: Yes, yes & yes--couldn't have said it better.
And thanks, Liz, for this group read. Martineau's novel bridges the gap between Austen and Eliot/Gaskell. It's interesting to see the development of 19th c. women writers in this way.
And thanks, Liz, for this group read. Martineau's novel bridges the gap between Austen and Eliot/Gaskell. It's interesting to see the development of 19th c. women writers in this way.
86lauralkeet
*waves* me!
I'm currently reading Chapter XXX. Things turned very dramatic back in Chapter XXVIII. Like Heather (>75 souloftherose:) I didn't expect things to get out of hand like that.
Why does Mrs Rowland continue to insist that Philip is (or should be) engaged to someone else?
I'm currently reading Chapter XXX. Things turned very dramatic back in Chapter XXVIII. Like Heather (>75 souloftherose:) I didn't expect things to get out of hand like that.
Why does Mrs Rowland continue to insist that Philip is (or should be) engaged to someone else?
87CDVicarage
I'm just up to Chapter XX but I never mind spoilers so don't delay any discussion on my account.
88lyzard
It may go a bit over the top but I have to say I recognised a lot of Mrs Rowland's behaviours: some people get their way exactly like this, basically just wearing down the people around them.
The snowballing of her conduct is interesting, starting with something as petty as rivalry with Mrs Grey and a snobbish conviction that the Enderbys are so much better than the Greys, and the wish-fulfillment aspect of it, as if she has to force the things she says to be true (rather than speaking the truth in the first place!). It isn't often in the 19th century that you get a character (at this level of society, anyway) who is an outright liar, and the inability of the people around her to cope with behaviour so far outside the boundaries of the usual code is interesting too (if rather exasperating!).
While Mrs Rowland painfully illustrates the dangers of careless talk in the broader sense, I find her particularly scary in the context of the Hope-Hester marriage where we see exactly what a certain kind of talk can do. Mrs Grey, though not as deliberately, brings about that marriage simply by insisting upon it; perhaps we are to understand Mrs Rowland's insistence upon the engagement to Miss Bruce - or rather, the non-engagement to Margaret - in that light. Enough talk can build barriers as well as create pressures.
The snowballing of her conduct is interesting, starting with something as petty as rivalry with Mrs Grey and a snobbish conviction that the Enderbys are so much better than the Greys, and the wish-fulfillment aspect of it, as if she has to force the things she says to be true (rather than speaking the truth in the first place!). It isn't often in the 19th century that you get a character (at this level of society, anyway) who is an outright liar, and the inability of the people around her to cope with behaviour so far outside the boundaries of the usual code is interesting too (if rather exasperating!).
While Mrs Rowland painfully illustrates the dangers of careless talk in the broader sense, I find her particularly scary in the context of the Hope-Hester marriage where we see exactly what a certain kind of talk can do. Mrs Grey, though not as deliberately, brings about that marriage simply by insisting upon it; perhaps we are to understand Mrs Rowland's insistence upon the engagement to Miss Bruce - or rather, the non-engagement to Margaret - in that light. Enough talk can build barriers as well as create pressures.
89lyzard
>82 Sakerfalcon:
I especially liked that Walcot, who Martineau could have made lazy and incompetent, was actually a promising practitioner and, despite his belief in Mrs R, a decent man.
Yes! The handling of that was unexpected and clever.
>82 Sakerfalcon:, >83 japaul22:
Very rarely at this time and later did a woman in a novel tell a man to go jump (no matter how hard the readers might wish it!), which ties back to what I was saying in >76 lyzard: about what was considered "nice" behaviour. She was supposed to keep faith and suffer in silence, and to be rewarded at last. (Some "reward"!)
I was surprised and pleased when reading Santo Sebastiano by the minor novelist Catherine Cuthbertson when the heroine did justifiably break her engagement to the anti-hero, and finally marry someone else: it took something as drastic as her finding out he was an atheist, but at least it happened!
I especially liked that Walcot, who Martineau could have made lazy and incompetent, was actually a promising practitioner and, despite his belief in Mrs R, a decent man.
Yes! The handling of that was unexpected and clever.
>82 Sakerfalcon:, >83 japaul22:
Very rarely at this time and later did a woman in a novel tell a man to go jump (no matter how hard the readers might wish it!), which ties back to what I was saying in >76 lyzard: about what was considered "nice" behaviour. She was supposed to keep faith and suffer in silence, and to be rewarded at last. (Some "reward"!)
I was surprised and pleased when reading Santo Sebastiano by the minor novelist Catherine Cuthbertson when the heroine did justifiably break her engagement to the anti-hero, and finally marry someone else: it took something as drastic as her finding out he was an atheist, but at least it happened!
90lyzard
The sudden escalation in violence towards the Hopes is very shocking---not least because Sir William Hunter is clearly behind it, in a horrifying example of abuse of power.
The other interesting point in the defamation of Hope's character is the accusation of body-snatching: some of you may be aware that this is an accusation also levelled against Dr Lydgate in Middlemarch (which was written many years later, but set a few years before Deerbrook, around the time of the First Reform Bill), when his methods upset people and, as here, was intended to blacken his character and damage his career.
Of course, body-snatching did happen in these early days of surgical practice (and, in some cases, murder), and the literature of the time makes it very evident how widespread a fear it was amongst country populations. (Although most of it went on in the cities, where the death rate was higher and more unclaimed bodies available.)
The other interesting point in the defamation of Hope's character is the accusation of body-snatching: some of you may be aware that this is an accusation also levelled against Dr Lydgate in Middlemarch (which was written many years later, but set a few years before Deerbrook, around the time of the First Reform Bill), when his methods upset people and, as here, was intended to blacken his character and damage his career.
Of course, body-snatching did happen in these early days of surgical practice (and, in some cases, murder), and the literature of the time makes it very evident how widespread a fear it was amongst country populations. (Although most of it went on in the cities, where the death rate was higher and more unclaimed bodies available.)
91SassyLassy
I finished on Friday night and am working on my thoughts about it as a whole. It was a good book and it made me think.
92kac522
>90 lyzard: If I remember correctly, there's a grave robber in Dickens' Tale of Two Cities and in Our Mutual Friend Lizzie's father fishes corpses from the river.
93lyzard
Yes; although those examples are about robbing the dead rather than stealing the bodies themselves (although of course both could happen). In Our Mutual Friend there is a suggestion that Gaffer Hexham finds corpses in the river because he puts them there himself, but the opening scene shows him rather intent upon removing from the bodies anything of value. River scavengers like him did turn the bodies they found over to the police mortuary, where they might get a reward for finding a missing person.
94lauralkeet
>88 lyzard: Thanks Liz, that makes sense. I was beginning to wonder if I'd missed something related to her motivation.
95souloftherose
>76 lyzard: I did notice this but wondered if Martineau was showing the humiliation to push back against the idea that a woman shouldn't have feelings for a man until she accepts his proposal. An acknowledgement of how ridiculous the idea is and showing how much pain it can cause?
>82 Sakerfalcon: Yes, I agree with all of this!
I finished and very much enjoyed this (and found the moralising less off-putting than I thought I would before reading). As well as being really enjoyable it was very interesting to read this as a bridge between Austen and Eliot/Gaskell as >84 kac522: says.
>82 Sakerfalcon: Yes, I agree with all of this!
I finished and very much enjoyed this (and found the moralising less off-putting than I thought I would before reading). As well as being really enjoyable it was very interesting to read this as a bridge between Austen and Eliot/Gaskell as >84 kac522: says.
96lyzard
>95 souloftherose:
No, I don't get that vibe---it seems to me a serious warning to young women, though certainly with a component of warning men against careless talk and behaviour too.
Martineau clearly had a burr in her saddle-blanket about this situation, so much that I wonder if she didn't suffer either from unrequited love, or perhaps was rejected by a man after saying / showing more than she "ought to"?
No, I don't get that vibe---it seems to me a serious warning to young women, though certainly with a component of warning men against careless talk and behaviour too.
Martineau clearly had a burr in her saddle-blanket about this situation, so much that I wonder if she didn't suffer either from unrequited love, or perhaps was rejected by a man after saying / showing more than she "ought to"?
97lyzard
Another aspect of Deerbrook that I found very striking is how the village disintegrates in a time of crisis. This section of the novel offers a graphic depiction of life before institutionalised charity and/or medical care, of a society without any "safety net".
The social theory at this time was patriarchal, with the working-classes subservient to and dependent upon the aristocracy / landed gentry, but with the landowners expected to fulfil the needs of their tenants and villagers in terms of maintaining their houses and providing health care, etc. This was fine as a theory, and many landowners were scrupulous in meeting their responsibilities; but here we are shown the consequences of a failure in this respect. When the crisis hits, Sir William and Lady Hunter simply pack up and leave, making no effort to help personally or to arrange for help. This is particularly shocking given how Sir William has used the villagers in his vendetta against Hope: when they need something in return, he abandons them.
The social theory at this time was patriarchal, with the working-classes subservient to and dependent upon the aristocracy / landed gentry, but with the landowners expected to fulfil the needs of their tenants and villagers in terms of maintaining their houses and providing health care, etc. This was fine as a theory, and many landowners were scrupulous in meeting their responsibilities; but here we are shown the consequences of a failure in this respect. When the crisis hits, Sir William and Lady Hunter simply pack up and leave, making no effort to help personally or to arrange for help. This is particularly shocking given how Sir William has used the villagers in his vendetta against Hope: when they need something in return, he abandons them.
98Oregonreader
I have not finished.I ordered the book right away but terrible weather everywhere delayed delivery. I plan to follow this thread as I read. Thanks everyone!
99cbl_tn
I finished the book this afternoon. I read about the pandemic while sitting in the doctor's office.
100lyzard
>98 Oregonreader:
No hurry! Please add any comments as you go.
>99 cbl_tn:
I hope you were nice to your doctor!
No hurry! Please add any comments as you go.
>99 cbl_tn:
I hope you were nice to your doctor!
101Sakerfalcon
>97 lyzard: The Hunters' behaviour throughout the book was shocking - his worse than hers, but both pretty appalling. Yet the villagers never lose respect for them, or are less than thrilled and awed when the couple deign to come into the village. The poor have totally bought into the social order, believing that the gentry know best and that whatever they do (or don't do) must be right because of their status. I guess their servility is all part of the ignorance and superstition that Martineau highlights, caused by a lack of education or exposure to the wider world.
102lauralkeet
I have 100 pages to go ... I'm enjoying the comments on this thread even though I'm not saying much.
103SassyLassy
>101 Sakerfalcon: Agreed that the Hunters' behaviour was awful, but I don't think it was unexpected. I think that unfortunately that deference, often sliding into the servility you reference, is still at work in rural areas, particularly in the UK, where references to the "big house" are common in villages where most employment has some connection to the largest local landowner. I'm not sure however if it is the case that the poor have totally bought into the social order in the sense of supporting it philosophically, but rather that they know there are few ways out, and resistance has consequences.
104lyzard
There was enormous upheaval and change over the course of the 19th century, with increasing industrialisation and the coming of the railways, but in rural areas not much had changed over the preceding centuries. As noted, it is difficult to be sure how much of the traditional deference of the poor was real, how much habit, and how much inspired by a justified fear of the power of the rich.
At one time there was a fairly mutually respectful relationship between the landowners and those who worked the land, but over the 18th and 19th century, as land-grabbing and land-enclosure became more common, and laws passed to restrict the conduct of tenants, including in some cases preventing farmers from growing their own food or keeping their own cattle, the power of the landowners grew ever greater. Certainly there were good landlords who did their best for their tenants and the local tradespeople, but Sir William Hunter here is a graphic illustration of the abuses possible under the prevailing system.
At one time there was a fairly mutually respectful relationship between the landowners and those who worked the land, but over the 18th and 19th century, as land-grabbing and land-enclosure became more common, and laws passed to restrict the conduct of tenants, including in some cases preventing farmers from growing their own food or keeping their own cattle, the power of the landowners grew ever greater. Certainly there were good landlords who did their best for their tenants and the local tradespeople, but Sir William Hunter here is a graphic illustration of the abuses possible under the prevailing system.
105lauralkeet
I just finished the book -- finally. It was very good and darker than I expected. The insights shared on this thread really enhanced my reading experience. Thanks to all!
107CDVicarage
I've finished, too and I'd like to echo Laura's comment as I think I might have given up without you. As it is I skimmed quite a lot of the moralising/philosophising but I'm pleased to have read it.
What's next in the timeline?
What's next in the timeline?
108lyzard
Good work, Kerry!
I believe that Geraldine Jewsbury's Zoe is next up. It's another I haven't read, so I'm looking forward to it!
I believe that Geraldine Jewsbury's Zoe is next up. It's another I haven't read, so I'm looking forward to it!
109CDVicarage
>108 lyzard: That was one of my first Viragos, back in the early 80s, so I will probably give that one a miss.
110lauralkeet
Diese Nachricht wurde vom Autor gelöscht.
111Sakerfalcon
>108 lyzard: Ooh, that has been on my Tbr shelf for a while now so I will look forward to joining you.
112rainpebble
I just finished the last few pages this A.M. and have to agree with everyone that it was quite good. I have kept up with and appreciated everyone's comments on this thread. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts with the rest of us.
Thank you for hosting, lyzard, & for all of the information you shared. I look forward to the next read.
Thank you for hosting, lyzard, & for all of the information you shared. I look forward to the next read.
116lauralkeet
Works for me. I need to find a copy.
117souloftherose
>115 lyzard: That would work for me.
118rainpebble
>115 lyzard:
That works well for me. I will by back home by then & in the arms of my 'physical' Viragos. Thank you for all you do.
That works well for me. I will by back home by then & in the arms of my 'physical' Viragos. Thank you for all you do.
119SassyLassy
>115 lyzard: The timing works well. I hope I can find a copy in the meantime. I suspect this will be more difficult to find than Deerbrook.
120lyzard
May it is then - thank you!
Yes, it does seem that this is one of the trickier Viragos to access. I will post any information I find about e-copies.
Yes, it does seem that this is one of the trickier Viragos to access. I will post any information I find about e-copies.
121souloftherose
I just ordered a used copy from Amazon UK and noticed there's one other copy available from Amazon UK for GBP 2.81 (including UK postage). I don't know if the seller ships internationally but if not I don't mind buying and sending on to someone in return for postage.
122SassyLassy
>115 lyzard: I just received a used copy through amazon.uk. The seller doesn't ship to Canada, so it was routed through my sister in the UK. It came from the bookseller Jane Bell and was in excellent condition.
